Mephisto2

Another example of how prisoner abuse is not solely an American "malise".


Mr Mephisto

daswig

OH MY GOD, SHE USED HARSH LANGUAGE AGAINST THEM!!! SHE'S WORSE THAN SADDAM!!!!

Just thought I'd get that out for the far-lefties...

theusername

I'm not a lefty. But I find it offensive when people make light of these situations. Denying food, water, or access to a toilet is pretty severe in my eyes.

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daswig

I'd think it would depend on how long it went on for, yes? Denying somebody food, water, or a bathroom for 3 hours = no war crime (unless night classes at the Uni count as a war crime). Denying food, water, or bathroom for 45 days = war crime. Somehow, I think the time length was more along the lines of the first than the second, don't you?

Coppertop

Somehow, I don't think there's enough information to say either way.

daswig

Dude, let me ask you this. Suppose, just suppose, you were in jail, and you decided that you wanted to skip out to Starbucks for a vente latte. The prison guards told you "No." Then, let's suppose that you wanted to sleep during mealtimes. The guards laugh, kick your bunk, and say "get your ass to the messhall." Then suppose that you objected to being forced to live in an area 6 foot by 8 foot (it's called a "cell") and the guards refused to move you.

In the course of one day, you've been denied drink, you've been denied sleep, and you've been confined in uncomfortable quarters. Does that constitute a war crime, or a crime against humanity??? Nope, it qualifies as "being in jail."

Mephisto2

You're being disingenuous. Obvisously it's worse than that, otherwise the Danish government would not be prosecuting them.

Mr Mephisto

daswig

So the government never prosecutes people unless they are guilty? Is that REALLY what you are saying???

cyrnel

Reality, folks. We're dealing with people who may or may not sharpen their machete before severing your head and throwing you in a pit. How's that for humane? It isn't a reason to abuse prisoners, but with hundreds of thousands of combatants things are going to happen. People will be weak, they'll be punished, but don't let it distract from the big picture.

Mephisto, not to belittle your post. I'm just burnt and can't help think how much time we're spending milling about in these media culdesacs.

Mephisto2

Cyrnel,

the point of my post was to show the same thing you mention above. That prisoner abuse is not as "uncommon" as some of the hysterical people would have us believe.


Mr Mephisto

daswig

Which is more common? Our troops abusing prisoners, or their troops cutting off heads on camera???

zen_tom

daswig, that's not the point, your place of birth is an accident of nature, it doesn't make you a good or a bad person.

put enough people into as tough a situation as Iraq, and people will crack - one way, or another

OFKU0

I think daswig said in another thread that soldiers are trained to kill. If not, my mistake. I am trying to understand the mindset here of soldiers. If killing is the primary function of soldiers in a warzone, when they have time off, the need to blow off steam seems to be a requirement. Everyone needs down time.

Is it at all possible that soldiers who degrade and humiliate prisoners are relying on or think that the treatment mentioned is antithical to their main job of killing? In other words, is it possible that the disconnect is so great that these actions are justified since afterall the prisoners are the lucky ones, they didn't get killed?

I may be wrong here but I think these actions are not isolated but rather are accepted in the military as common and are morally justified, just like highschool or college football hazings. And again I have to believe that these soldiers who participate in these acts seriously don't think their actions are a big deal, since afterall, lady luck is on the side of the prisoner, he is still breathing.

As for the other side that cuts off peoples heads, I am still thinking about that from the point of view as well that they too are trained to kill and find those actions morally acceptable.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

JumpinJesus

This could be a valid argument, except that I'm under the impression that prison guards are not infantry soldiers and are isolated in their duties to guarding prisoners. If this is the case, then they are not subject to same horrors of war that grunts are and therefore shouldn't have to let off steam in this fashion. Also, they are either ignoring their training or are not being trained properly, which would make it a command issue. I could be wrong, but this is how I understand it.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

alansmithee

But doesn't that also justify the "abuse" of the prisoners? Maybe the various guards are just cracking under pressure.

I think the point should be that some scumbags having their lives made somewhat uncomfortable gets more reaction than civilians being beheaded on camera.

matthew330

"A Danish intelligence officer and four military policemen have been charged with abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Danish headquarters in southern Iraq. "

End of story. These people are being investigated and charged. If they did something wrong, the western world will make them pay the price.

...and exactly what club are you talking about. The one you can count on both hands, and every single one are being prosecuted. Pretty large club there bro. Your self-percieved liberal humanistic insight is limited to situations that alansmithee referenced. You hear of a handfull of situations and "want to believe" it is reflective of coalition intentions, you want to chalk up the mistaken death of a mother and father at a checkpoint as a reason for Iraqi resistance.

You're insight provides you with every justification on the planet for the actions of these fundamentalist muslims....but zero for those who are protecting the "average iraqi" from these nutcases. You're provided with all the ammunition you need from the "media" to feed your misguided agenda, yet you complain about them being to biased.

Ask yourself - are these fundamentalist bombers acting in the interest of iraqi's as a whole? You know the answer is "no", so what is your motivation for continually posting these articles. it happens, it's war, they are being punished. End of story. There is only one group of people (excluding rdr4evers of this world), that is fucking up the future of iraqi's, and that is the fundamentalist muslims.

Put me alone in a room with them, i wouldn't mind getting a couple good hits myself.

daswig

Huh? It doesn't make you a good or bad person? So you're going on the premise that conduct is a result of genetics, nature over nurture?

If you are born into and grow up in a society that acts as if the standard thing is to run around lopping off heads, you're going to end up being the kind of person that runs around lopping off heads. Transplant that person to a civilized society after growing up lopping off heads, and don't be surprised if he continues lopping off heads, despite the fact that it's no longer socially acceptable. Does it make him evil? In the eyes of the civilized society, FUCK YES. Why? Because he's lopping off heads, an act that the civilized society finds abhorrent. And the fact that he grew up in the other society isn't really mitigating circumstances...

Manx

Are we quantitatively comparing individual instances of torture with individual instances of decapitation? Or are we quantitatively comparing the number of victims of torture with the number of victims of decapitation?

For the former, I'm quite certain there have been far more individual instances of torture than individual decapitations. For the latter, I'm quite certain there have been far more victims of torture than decapitations.

What was your point again? Did it have something to do with excusing torture because in light of decapitation, torture ain't so bad?

To that, I just shake my head in saddness.

daswig

Ah, yes, I forgot. They can decapitate us, film it, and show it world-wide on the evening news, but if we rough them up even a little bit, WE are the badguys.

And we wonder why we lose wars....the attitude you display is the reason why.

War isn't supposed to be about warm-fuzzy-bunny-slipper feelings. It's about killing lots of people in really horrible ways. We used to understand this, when we firebombed, carpetbombed, and NUKED civilian targets because there might be a few badguys there. But now, people in the military get in trouble FOR POURING A FUCKING BOTTLE OF DRINKING WATER ON SOME TANGO'S HEAD. What's amazing to me is that they put up with this kind of shit.

When the Fundie muslims force your daughter or granddaughter to get a female circumcision and wear a burqua, it will be the fault of people like you, because you refused to stand up and say "no, I will win, no matter what, even if it means not playing by rules which everybody else but us ignores."

host

Why did the President Bush order U.S. forces to go into Iraq ?
Do you believe that the U.S. military and civilian administration of post
Saddam Iraq has been performed in a way that would do the least subsequent harm to the Iraqi populace ?

Remember that the Bush administration picked the time and the place
to enter Iraq with overwhelming force and to destroy the former
regime's military and strategic infrastructure, and then to disband all of
it's civilian and military security organization and administration.

Have you really considered these questions before you lay all of the blame
for "fucking up the future of iraq's on the "fundamentalist muslims" ?

Bush's father seemed to have given much more consideration to the
potential for what is now happening in Iraq, than his son and his
appointees have. What changed in Iraq between 1991 and 2003 that
would have justified the risk of instability inside Iraq and in that part of
the middle east, enough to contradict the well articulated and executed
policies of Bush Sr. and Clinton ?

Bush Sr. and his appointees could not plan for regional or internal stability
in a post Saddam Iraq, so they wisely left him in place in a dramatically
weakened state, further neutralized by the northern and southern no fly
zones. Twelve years of experience reinforced the wisdom and efficacy
of their 1991 decision. Bush Sr. took "fundamentalist muslims" into account.
Now you blame them for a situation that seems much more likely to go
down in history as the most serious U.S. military, planning, and policy
failure since the Vietnam war.

daswig

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't Clinton call for the ouster of Saddam too towards the end of his 8 year debacle?

tecoyah

I think we call it.....civilization, or maybe humanity.

I would also very much like you to explain to me what exactly a "Tango" is....With hope it is not some form of racial slur.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

daswig

Sorry, "tango" is synonymous with "terrorist" for radio communications. As you know, terrorists come in all shapes, sizes, creeds, and colors, so I really don't see how it could be considered a racial slur.

Warfare is, by definition, an uncivilized act.

tecoyah

Thank you....I was unaware of the term Tango....thus the request for clarification.
And, Yes....warfare is uncivilized. That does not mean I must be as well.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

martinguerre

Bingo. A substantial amount of human energy has been spent making and studying the laws of war, so that we might be able to pull ourselves back from the edge of total depravity.

That there are people eager to throw such bounds away and run directly for the edge...is scary. Throw up as much "OR ELSE" as you want. We aren't mad that someone had water poured on them. Pardon my french, but we're not stupid.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

cyrnel

martinguerre, I can't find any suggestion in this discussion that we disregard legal conventions and abuse prisoners as a matter of policy. While I'm sure those opinions exist, I'm also sure you could find people willing to give their house keys to OBL/Charles Manson/etc. That might sound ridiculous, but it's only to suggest that putting people you don't understand in a box does nothing but satisfy emotions. It does nothing to help understand or bring people together.

Opinions are a continuum. Neither world domination nor absolute pacifism are going to survive in this world. Somewhere in the middle is civilized due dilligence.

A relatively small number of abuse cases have been reported and abusers are being prosecuted. That's how it should be. On the larger scene we're trying to get a country on its feet while battling a fairly large, apparently well funded organization with no regard for "conventions" of war who's recently declared war on democracy. I'll keep watching out for abuse trends, and hope our leaders do the same, but I know where to keep my focus.

stevo

This makes me sick. All innocent people that have been held hostage and butchered, and you gloss over it by taking the other point of view that they are trained to kill so its ok. US soldiers are also trained in when not to kill, so as to avoid civillian casualties as much as possible.

The speach on this board of lopping off heads, as if it was one quick whack with a machete is misguided. These people are held down like hogs, a large hunting knife is held to their throat and their necks are sawed through until the bastard holding the person by the hair can rip the head from the spine. It is far from painless. It is a brutal and disgusting act that some people actually try to justify. Excuse me while I vomit.

The_Dunedan

Let's be clear here. The actions of the Wahhabist faction insurgents ( al-Zarqawi and his bunch ) in Iraq are inexcuseable and should be roundly condemned. In fact, numerous Muslim leaders around the world have condemned them.
http://www.proislam.com/articles_repudiate%20hate.htm
The barbarity of such things offends the majority of Muslims.

However, it must be recognized that there are two distinct factions among the insurgents in Iraq. The first of these is the well-organized, well-funded, but much smaller "Jihadist" faction, who are fronted by men like al-Zarqawi, and who have extensive ties to Usama bin Laden. The second faction is much, much larger but is less well-funded and much less well trained; these are a hodgepodge of former Baathists, Feydaeen Saddam, and ( by a substantial majority ) ordinary pissed-off Iraqis who want the foreigners out of their country.

Thes two groups hate each other, and expend a fair amount of energy killing one another, in classical Middle-Eastern tribal fashion. It must be remembered that Saddam's regime was secular, and that he and Usama bin Laden had been trading insults and death-sentances for almost ten years. So far, at least, the second group has shown no prediliction for cutting off people's heads; this is a "Jihadist" thing.

However, we must also be clear about the treatment of captives. If we are to expect any respect or propert treatment for our captured soldiers, whether in Iraq or anywhere else, we have the obligation to our soldier, to make sure that they treat captives properly. Because the simple fact is that when other countries see our soldiers humiliating or abusing prisoners, they take this as a license to abuse OUR soldiers. If for no other reason that to avoid having our own soldiers abused and tortured, this kind of thing needs to be stopped. Not investigated, not explained, and not psychologized away; STOPPED. NOW. If that means firing every Brass Hat all the way up to Rumsfeld, so be it. Because the simple facts are that stupid people are going to continue to do stupid things ( Like abuse prisoners, brag about it, and take pictures ) and it is going to continue to leak out; we live in the age of the Internet. Nothing is secret anymore. And as long as this remains the case, other people from other nations are going to continue to see our abuse of prisoners as license for them to abuse prisoners.

martinguerre

Well aware...I know supporters of the war in Iraq who espoused winning the hearts and the minds of the people, and not resorting to terrorism ourselves. I disagree respectfully, but i don't condemn them either. What I do condemn is the moral relativism that states that since our enemy is evil, it's okay for us to be evil as well.

My comments were directed primarily to Daswig, who does in my opinion, supports the commision of war crimes if it is militarily expedient. I understand that this is born out of a deep sense of pragmatism, but i still condemn it as immoral and inhuman.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

host

cyrnel, the Bush administration has "disregard(ed) legal conventions and abuse prisoners as a matter of policy". Bush and all those under him who
are "just following orders" are war criminals !

Manx

You are excusing torture. I am not excusing decapitation. I don't really understand how you have convinced yourself that criticism of torture is the same thing as acceptance of decapitation. You must be confused.

The rest of your post is so delusional, I had to delete it.

daswig

So you're saying that if we don't abuse prisoners, that others will not abuse our prisoners? Sorry, Bucko, but it doesn't seem like they had any problem WHATSOEVER abusing our POWs before the various scandals broke...The ONLY thing keeping American POWs safe is fear of retribution. And for people who want to die, that's not much of an issue.

daswig

Nice ad-hom.

I'm not excusing torture, I'm saying that what we're dealing with isn't what could be reasonably considered torture. When USGIs start ripping out people's fingernails with pliers and similar activities, THEN I'll condemn our torturing people.


There's a difference between "fucking with" people and "torturing" them.

Pacifier

Does it mattter? Is it kindergarden? "he started?"

A civilised nation should never go down on the level of terrorism, and torture is a very low level.
"We" are better than that, we should not use such methodes, no matter what those people do to us.

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Pacifier

I would love to see you in those prisions for a week or two, than we can talk about "torture or no torture" again....

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

daswig

I've seen far worse go on in US prisons than any of the pictures I've seen coming out of Iraq, and it didn't qualify as cruel and unusual punishment here, much less "torture".

flstf

Them are wise words indeed. Unfortunately "civilized due diligence" gets twisted and interpreted as whacking off heads and torture by the hard core on either side of a conflict. If the cause is right, the end justifies the means for many.

While I don't believe we should engage in torture, I hope a special effort is made to find the decapitators and bring them to justice once this war is settled.