So do you care about free speech? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

kutulu · 11-29-2004, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manx

Not quite. What I did was show that a headline of "Declaration of Independence banned in Calif School" is not even what the people bringing the lawsuit have claimed in their own PR. And there has been no claim by any party involved that "the very documents of our nations founding are being modified or banned to fit PC correctness in schools", as Ustwo so blithely mentioned.

They cannot say that because the parties involved can't. However, the media can call it whatever they want. As long as you spin it as the DoI was banned people will believe it.

The article in question buries the fact that it was excerpts from these documents used to persuade young people that were banned, not the documents themselves. It's in the 8th paragraph. In print media that is on the continuing page. Most people read the headline and the first couple of paragraphs. Here is the article again (with comments in italics):

Quote:

Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School Nice catchy headline. It brings a sense of alarmism to it.
Wed Nov 24, 2004 04:12 PM ET

By Dan Whitcomb

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A California teacher has been barred by his school from giving students documents from American history that refer to God -- including the Declaration of Independence. The opening paragraph tries to make you think that the actual DoI was banned.

Steven Williams, a fifth-grade teacher at Stevens Creek School in the San Francisco Bay area suburb of Cupertino, sued for discrimination on Monday, claiming he had been singled out for censorship by principal Patricia Vidmar because he is a Christian. Try to take God from us?

"It's a fact of American history that our founders were religious men, and to hide this fact from young fifth-graders in the name of political correctness is outrageous and shameful," said Williams' attorney, Terry Thompson. Make a blanket statement that all of the founders were fundies that wanted to convert everyone. Balance it with an attack on PC. Savy

"Williams wants to teach his students the true history of our country," he said. "There is nothing in the Establishment Clause (of the U.S. Constitution) that prohibits a teacher from showing students the Declaration of Independence." By true history, are they also going to show the Treaty of Tripoli? Remember that one? It's the one where we told the Muslims that the US has no official religion and the government does not endorse any specific faith. Are they also saying that no athiests were founding fathers

Vidmar could not be reached for comment on the lawsuit, which was filed on Monday in U.S. District Court in San Jose and claims violations of Williams rights to free speech under the First Amendment.

Phyllis Vogel, assistant superintendent for Cupertino Unified School District, said the lawsuit had been forwarded to a staff attorney. She declined to comment further. I'm sick of reading these, "unavailable for comment lines. They are in the middle of a lawsuit, of course they aren't going to say anything.

Williams asserts in the lawsuit that since May he has been required to submit all of his lesson plans and supplemental handouts to Vidmar for approval, and that the principal will not permit him to use any that contain references to God or Christianity. God kicked out of the schools

Among the materials she has rejected, according to Williams, are excerpts from the Declaration of Independence, George Washington's journal, John Adams' diary, Samuel Adams' "The Rights of the Colonists" and William Penn's "The Frame of Government of Pennsylvania."

"He hands out a lot of material and perhaps 5 to 10 percent refers to God and Christianity because that's what the founders wrote," said Thompson, a lawyer for the Alliance Defense Fund, which advocates for religious freedom. "The principal seems to be systematically censoring material that refers to Christianity and it is pure discrimination." Pure BS. Percentages are the easiest thing to manipulate. By saying this does it mean that 5-10 of the words are "God" or that there are documents that never mention it at all?

In June, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear the case of a California atheist who wanted the words "under God" struck from the Pledge of Allegiance as recited by school children. The appeals court in California had found that the phrase amounted to a violation of church and state separation. Nice attack at the 9th Circuit Court. The Christian Warriors won that battle, they won't win this one

Paq · 11-29-2004, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

This is such a ploy by the right wingers. <SNIP>
I'm convinced that the goal from the start was to entice the school to ban it so that they could end up in court and make the news. Radical Christians have their smear campaigns working at full steam right now.

Bingo......

miyamotomusashi · 11-29-2004, 07:56 PM

*Standing ovation for kutulu*
If any one does not belive that right wing distortion is at work you should go see what is avaliable at your local schools and librarys or how about gov't run and funded web sites such as The Library of Congress (www.loc.gov). And if you read the Declaration of Independence you will see that they place god after nature and possessed (nature's god) by nature.

Mojo_PeiPei · 11-29-2004, 08:24 PM

Ahh yes, let us bow before the great goddess. May she bless us and keep. Gaia.

Lebell · 11-29-2004, 10:06 PM

My "sniping" tolerance reservour is all used up.

So it stops NOW.

pedro padilla · 12-02-2004, 06:42 PM

how bout just saying: one nation, indivisible. period.
God, Allah, Buddah, Jehovah, Hari Krisna, Hailie Selassie, Lucifer, Elvis......
Just too many names for the kids to remember.

Paq · 12-02-2004, 07:48 PM

hey pedro, that's the way it was before about 1948 when the nice people of america wanted to differentiate themselves from the godless communists...

listen to porky pig recite the pledge in one of the old cartoons, "one nation, indi..indi...indi...indivisible..."

Ilow · 12-03-2004, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miyamotomusashi

*Standing ovation for kutulu*
If any one does not belive that right wing distortion is at work you should go see what is avaliable at your local schools and librarys or how about gov't run and funded web sites such as The Library of Congress (www.loc.gov). And if you read the Declaration of Independence you will see that they place god after nature and possessed (nature's god) by nature.

yeah, What kind of proof is there that all of the founding fathers were strictly christian? I was always under the impression that they were really Deists. If this is true it is even more offensive that the right wing is trying to re-write history to suit their needs.

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-03-2004, 03:29 PM

Some were Deists, some were Christian, most were Masons.

I don't see any distortion of this "Right wing conspiracy to re-write history".

Just about every important figure in American history, held God and what he respented for the country and to the people in the highest regard. They would turn in their graves if they knew the filth that was being spewed by the Christophobes of today.

filtherton · 12-03-2004, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Some were Deists, some were Christian, most were Masons.

I don't see any distortion of this "Right wing conspiracy to re-write history".

Just about every important figure in American history, held God and what he respented for the country and to the people in the highest regard. They would turn in their graves if they knew the filth that was being spewed by the Christophobes of today.

Don't be such a christaphobaphobe

. I somehow doubt your ability to correctly predict who would turn in their grave over what, maybe that's just the skeptic in me. I myself think that many of the ff's would turn a bit at the idea that we mention god in the pledge of allegiance, and on our money, but that's just me.

Manx · 12-03-2004, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I myself think that many of the ff's would turn a bit at the idea that we mention god in the pledge of allegiance, and on our money, but that's just me.

I agree completely. If the FF's had had any desire to have this country base its laws on religion, they would have expressly put that into the documents which they wrote to define this country.

The nonsensical claim that the Constitution is based on the principles of Christianity (or any religion or sect of a religion) is to claim that the desire for freedom and a lack of tyranny is specific to Christianity (or any religion or sect of religion). Absurd.

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-03-2004, 04:50 PM

You're right, it's based off of the concepts of justice as passed down by the great philosophy known atheism.

smooth · 12-03-2004, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

You're right, it's based off of the concepts of justice as passed down by the great philosophy known atheism.

Well, greek orgyists, Native American pagans, and French secularists, to be more precise--but you almost got there with your own humanist reasoning.

Manx · 12-03-2004, 04:57 PM

The documents which founded this country are agnostic, not atheistic.

filtherton · 12-03-2004, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

You're right, it's based off of the concepts of justice as passed down by the great philosophy known atheism.

The idea that morals can only come from christianity, or even that christianity is the root of morality for all christians is flawed. There are amoral christians, just as there are moral atheists. Being a christian doesn't not mean the same thing as being moral. I would argue that the morality that you seem to attribute solely to christianity has more of a coincidental relationship with christianity than a direct correlation.

kutulu · 12-06-2004, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

The idea that morals can only come from christianity, or even that christianity is the root of morality for all christians is flawed. There are amoral christians, just as there are moral atheists. Being a christian doesn't not mean the same thing as being moral. I would argue that the morality that you seem to attribute solely to christianity has more of a coincidental relationship with christianity than a direct correlation.

Well logic tells you that but every time I get into this conversation with a fundie they tell me that the Bible is the only way to tell that murder is wrong. They somehow forget that every other culture on the planet came to the same conclusion WITHOUT the Bible.

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-06-2004, 12:54 PM

The modern philosophy of justice and morals, stemming from Western Civilization are Christian ideal's. If you think otherwise, you are just willingly ignoring reality, there is no two ways about it.

That having been said, I agree with you Filth. Being Christian doesn't make you moral, it's something you have to work at, and I think ever good and decent Christian realizes this.

And I'm not limiting morality solely to Christianity, just in the context of western civilization.

smooth · 12-06-2004, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

The modern philosophy of justice and morals, stemming from Western Civilization are Christian ideal's. If you think otherwise, you are just willingly ignoring reality, there is no two ways about it.

That having been said, I agree with you Filth. Being Christian doesn't make you moral, it's something you have to work at, and I think ever good and decent Christian realizes this.

And I'm not limiting morality solely to Christianity, just in the context of western civilization.

You are not correct.

filtherton · 12-06-2004, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

The modern philosophy of justice and morals, stemming from Western Civilization are Christian ideal's. If you think otherwise, you are just willingly ignoring reality, there is no two ways about it.

I know the ff's were largely christian. My problem, in a nutshell, is that the christianity that people talk about when they talk about america is an idealized, innaccurate snowglobe version of christianity. First of all, christianity is not as simple as the word "christianity" would imply. There are enough different valid christian faiths so as to render the word in this context effectively useless in terms of actually conveying anything meaningful. Is amerca baptist? Fundamentalist? Evangelist? UCC? Unitarian?

Speaking specifically of the founding fathers, there were "28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists". (http://www.str.org/free/commentaries...s/faithofo.htm) Which denomination gets the credit? Certainly they were all christian, but given the myriad different conflicting beliefs that all qualify as christian practically the only common bond among all christians is a belief in the existence of a really important guy named jesus. How would the other denominations feel if instead of saying that this country was built on christianity, we were instead taught that this country was built on the ideas of episcopalianism? I guarantee you that all of the squeeky wheel denominations would scream bloody murder, despite the fact that as far as you want to stretch it such curriculum would be historically accurate.

I think one of the main problems i have is based on my suspicion that many of the loudest christian nationers don't want an accurate portrayal of our nation's history, they just want history to validate their religion. The problem with this is that our nation isn't supposed to be a christian nation. It is supposed to be secular. I'm all for the teaching of our history accurately, but christianity is not the focus of our history. There is a problem when teaching the history of our nation becomes an opportunity to proselytize. This country was set up in a way so as to be inclusive of all religion. The only circumstances under which i would support the explicit mention of christianity as a cornerstone of western philosphy would be if they mentioned it in terms of manifest destiny, labor struggles, slavery, and any other shiner on the face of american history as well as in the context of liberty and justice for all. That is to say, if the morals and philosphies of christians were portrayed as they actually are, not as "Christianity is responsible for everything that is good about america".

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-06-2004, 01:55 PM

This country was fostered by cafeteria catholics.

But let me ask you a legitimate question.

Can you in anyway see why "christians" feel attacked? You don't think some of the politcal correctness and trying not to offend people has gone to far?

martinguerre · 12-06-2004, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojo

The modern philosophy of justice and morals, stemming from Western Civilization are Christian ideal's. If you think otherwise, you are just willingly ignoring reality, there is no two ways about it.

I'm Christian, and i'm rather unsure of why you're saying that. First of all, there's no mention of the revelations of God made to the Hebrews. That's enough to send my eyes rolling.

Secondly, there's no reference to greek and roman sources.

Lastly, there's no discussion of the way in which Christianity is not contained by or limited by the modern notion of justice. Frankly, the justice of God is rather outside humankind's practice... Therefore, to hold up the religion of Christianity (and i say religion in a pejorative Barth-ian sense of the word) as a source of justice is nothing more than rank idolatry.

filtherton · 12-06-2004, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

This country was fostered by cafeteria catholics.

But let me ask you a legitimate question.

Can you in anyway see why "christians" feel attacked? You don't think some of the politcal correctness and trying not to offend people has gone to far?

I think that christians, in their confrontation with p.c. attitudes, have ironically become overly sensitive themselves. Do you, as a christian, honestly feel threatened by political correctness? You do realize that the vast majority of this country belives in jesus, right? How is christianity threatened in the least bit?

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-06-2004, 02:49 PM

I feel threatened when you have people in the ACLU targetting buildings that are decades old because they have a crosses engraved in the stone work. When the ACLU targets city crests because they have a cross on them. Yes lets physical remove a cross from the city symbol in California, not like the state has strong historical ties to Christian missionaries. I wonder how long until Los Angeles has to change it's name.

Quote:

by Karla Dial

ACLU Targets Several Southern California Crosses For Removal

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) launched a campaign this spring to remove all visible crosses from city and county seals in Southern California—and as this issue of Citizen went to press, appeared to be on the verge of getting its way.

On May 5, the city of Redlands—where the 40-year-old logo containing a cross is found on government buildings, official stationery and police uniforms—surrendered when the local ACLU chapter threatened to sue. City officials covered the crosses on buildings with blue tape and reprinted all business cards without it.

ACLU attorney Ben Wizner told The Associated Press that two people had complained about the cross; city attorney Dan McHugh said the town capitulated because of a budget crisis.

"It could run up to $50,000 to $60,000 [in legal costs to fight it]… so the city council made the decision that the manager ought to continue removing the cross," he said. "It was just not worth the money or the effort."

The ACLU then threatened Los Angeles County, where a Latin cross appears on the seal, along with a pagan goddess named Pomona and other symbols representing the city's agricultural, fishing and entertainment industries. The group sent a three-page letter to the county board of supervisors dated May 19 demanding that only the cross be removed from the 57-year-old seal "in a reasonable time frame" and mandating a response within 14 days.

ACLU Executive Director Rita Ripston cited case law from around the country in which similar seals had been reconfigured—and warned that "any attempt to defend the cross as solely a historic symbol, rather than a sectarian religious symbol, will prove even less successful than it has in previous cases."

County Supervisor Mike Anton-ovich fired off a terse six-paragraph response two days later, reminding Ripston of the county's religious roots—founded in the 1700s with the San Gabriel Mission—and that its oldest city, Los Angeles, has street names taken straight from the Bible. The cross merely reflects that history.
"Rewriting our historical roots," he concluded, "is, to use an analogy, like eating a sandwich wrapped in a paper bag—it loses its taste."

But Antonovich and Supervisor Don Knabe were the only two board members standing firm to defend the seal in early June: They lost a 3-2 vote June 7, after the ACLU and the county struck a deal to replace the cross in the seal with pictures of Spanish missions and native people.

More than 2,000 people of all faiths attended the board meeting—waving signs that said things like "Jews for the L.A. County Seal" and "Stop the ACLU Nazis." Supervisor Yvonne Brathwaite Burke declared the meeting "a religious frenzy."

Five different legal groups, including the Alliance Defense Fund (ADF) and the Thomas More Law Center, have offered to help the county fight the ACLU free of charge. The ADF also hopes to influence the final outcome in Redlands.

"It's my understanding that the [Redlands] city council does not want to cave in to the pressure of the ACLU," ADF attorney Robert Tyler said. "However, they are concerned that they can't afford to defend this case. That's where we come in."

The Thomas More Law Center filed a separate lawsuit June 4 on behalf of an L.A. County employee, charging that removing the cross sends an unconstitutional message of hostility toward Christianity.

http://www.family.org/cforum/citizenmag/departments/a0033069.cfm

I feel threatened when in Public schools it's ok to put up the crescent star for ramadan, the menorah for Hannakuh, but it's somehow offensive to put up a manger scene, if not for the very fact that it solely targets Christianity. This was the case in New York last year, I doubt it has changed.

Quote:

JUDICIAL JIHAD
Judge rules Islamic education
OK in California classrooms
Dismisses suit opposing requirement students recite Quran, pray to Allah
----------

Requiring seventh-grade students to pretend they're Muslims, wear Islamic garb, memorize verses from the Quran, pray to Allah and even to play "jihad games" in California public schools has been legally upheld by a federal judge, who has dismissed a highly publicized lawsuit brought by several Christian students and their parents.

As WND reported in July of last year, the suit was filed by the Thomas More Law Center against the Byron Union School District and various school officials to stop the use of the "Islam simulation" materials and methods used in the Excelsior Elementary School in Byron, Calif.

In her 22-page ruling announced Wednesday, U.S. District Judge Phyllis Hamilton said Excelsior is not indoctrinating students about Islam when it requires them to adopt Muslim names and pray to Allah as part of a history and geography class, but rather is just teaching them about the Muslim religion.

.....

The World History and Geography class in question is part of a curriculum being taught to seventh-graders all over the state, and is included in the state's curriculum standards required by the state board of education. Although the standards outline what subjects should be taught and will be included in state assessment tests, they don't mandate how they're to be taught.

In the three-week course, Excelsior teacher Brooke Carlin had students assume Islamic names, recite prayers in class, memorize and recite verses from the Quran, and had them simulate Ramadan fasting by going without something for a day. The final test required students to critique Muslim culture.
.....

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=36118

God forbid we recite the Pledge which mentions God.

Christianity is getting targetted because it's the majority. The left in this country is doing everything to discredit it and remove it from public, where Christianity has been for centuries without problem.

filtherton · 12-06-2004, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

I feel threatened when you have people in the ACLU targetting buildings that are decades old because they have a crosses engraved in the stone work. When the ACLU targets city crests because they have a cross on them. Yes lets physical remove a cross from the city symbol in California, not like the state has strong historical ties to Christian missionaries. I wonder how long until Los Angeles has to change it's name.

I think its ridiculous too. However, i'd hypothetically bet large sums of money that for every person who is uncomfortable seeing a cross on public property there is a christian person who thinks seeing a cross on public property is only appropriate because america is god's country. Both perspectives are problematic for what should be obvious reasons.

Quote:

I feel threatened when in Public schools it's ok to put up the crescent star for ramadan, the menorah for Hannakuh, but it's somehow offensive to put up a manger scene, if not for the very fact that it solely targets Christianity. This was the case in New York last year, I doubt it has changed.

I still don't know why you're threatened. Christianity still is the majority religion, and if america truly is a christian nation, your god will see to it that it stays that way. btw, i agree that it's a little hypocritical to only exclude christian propoganda from holiday festivities.

[quote/]God forbid we recite the Pledge which mentions God.

Christianity is getting targetted because it's the majority. The left in this country is doing everything to discredit it and remove it from public, where Christianity has been for centuries without problem.[/QUOTE]

It is true that public displays of religion have gone largely unchallenged for a long time, but things are changing. Just like they always have. It's not just the left. There are differences between fiscal conservatives and social conservatives. If you really lack the security in your personal faith to feel threatened by the lawful actions of your countrymen then perhaps you need to go to church more.

In any case, if you really do feel threatened as part of a mainstream religion whose membership is in the hundreds of millions, than can you imagine how threatened you'd feel if you and your fellow worshippers were in the minority?

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-06-2004, 03:35 PM

I'm not threatened or insecure in my beliefs, I respect other people's right to believe what they want. I just honestly think that the first amendment is being wrongfully interpreted and implemented, it's unlawful.

Why should a majority be complecent, to a loud vocal minority, a very very small minority at that?

Again for me, I'm not insecure. You might be surprised that although I am Catholic, I am a poor one. I see and recognize that catholicism and christianity alike have flaws, they always have and always will. But it's an issue of family. I can rip on my family all I want, but if someone outside the family starts causing problems that's when I have issues.

filtherton · 12-06-2004, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

I'm not threatened or insecure in my beliefs, I respect other people's right to believe what they want. I just honestly think that the first amendment is being wrongfully interpreted and implemented, it's unlawful.

Why should a majority be complecent, to a loud vocal minority, a very very small minority at that?

Well, if it is a court doing the interpretation, then it is by definition lawful. To be honest with you, i think the only christians who are bothered by things like this are themselves a loud vocal minority with christianity as a whole. I think the majority of christians consider this either to be unimportant or a complete nonissue.

Manx · 12-06-2004, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Can you in anyway see why "christians" feel attacked? You don't think some of the politcal correctness and trying not to offend people has gone to far?

It's not political correctness anymore. Once Chrisitian ideals become the policy of government, as they have been, it is a form of discrimination against the minority non-Christian populace. It takes a concerted effort to eliminate that influence - a concerted effort that may include the removal of Christian symbolism from government buildings. If you tried to tell me that a Judge's attempts at getting the 10 Commandments installed in a State or Federal building had nothing to do with a Christian influence in the Judicial branch, I wouldn't believe you.

It would only be political "correctness" if there was not actually a problem with the strong display of Christian influence on government policy. Unfortunately, that is not the direction this country is going.

God Bless The ACLU.

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-06-2004, 04:34 PM

I don't respect the bench over in the 9th circuit, the very fact that nearly 3/4's of all of it's decisions are overturned should really bring into question all of these landmark Christian-1st amendment decisions.

martinguerre · 12-06-2004, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

I don't respect the bench over in the 9th circuit, the very fact that nearly 3/4's of all of it's decisions are overturned should really bring into question all of these landmark Christian-1st amendment decisions.

if the system is correcting the excesses of the 9th circuit, why are you so concerned?

filtherton · 12-06-2004, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

I don't respect the bench over in the 9th circuit, the very fact that nearly 3/4's of all of it's decisions are overturned should really bring into question all of these landmark Christian-1st amendment decisions.

Like martinguerre said, it also seems to imply that our little system of checks and balances works, which in turn seems to imply that all these "threatened" christians complaining about minority on christian oppression are perhaps making a pillar of salt out of an anthill.

Since you feel so threatened, perhaps you could give me your doomsday scenario for the downfall of christianity due to the lack of its symbolic presence on public property. I'm only half joking. You say you feel threatened, but in order for your fear to be justified, you have to be facing some sort of credible threat. How is the absence publicly funded christian paraphernelia and symbolism threaten you as a christian? After you answer this, tell me how it is that so many christians aren't threatened by such things and what the difference between you and them is.

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-06-2004, 07:23 PM

Well I could go into it, but we fundamentally disagree. You think Christianity has no revelence in the context of our history, nor do you feel that it had any bearing on our foundation. So really there is nothing to discuss.

filtherton · 12-07-2004, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Well I could go into it, but we fundamentally disagree. You think Christianity has no revelence in the context of our history, nor do you feel that it had any bearing on our foundation. So really there is nothing to discuss.

How is there nothing to dicuss? I think christianity is relevant, just not in terms of morality or criminal justice philosophy. I think you're just saying that because you don't really have any valid reasons to feel that your religion is threatened.

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-07-2004, 08:19 AM

Regarding the 9th circuit, it shows judicial activism, they are no longer interpreting the law they are making policy. It makes me uneasy, even if they do get checked. Just like how so many people here bitch about Bush aka "Hail to the Thief".

Let's try this one last time. Was Christianity offensive and being shoved down people's throats for the last 220 years? Why is there this sudden crusade by the ACLU now? It wasn't even an issue before, I really didn't notice this "fundie" revolution. Do you guys perhaps think that maybe just maybe everything that has happened in politics recently, is the majority of people in America are sick of all of this? Maybe they do feel there is a place for God in society, doesn't mean it has to been it your face. Hell look at the Passion of the Christ, talk about a public backlash at the liberal American element. There is a cultural revolution in America right now, religion and Christianity play a big part in that. If the left succeeds in their attempts to completely remove it from public life, they take a lot of steam out of the engine. I am ranting, it's 10am I just woke up.

Maybe the fundamental issue is change. Why do we have to change? I think we were doing a hell of a lot better before, but then again that is only one fundie's romantic idea of reality.

P.S.

I think the liberal American element likes to piss Christian people off, seriously. If you guys noticed it doesn't take much to get me ranting, and I'm not even that diehard. Christianity makes a nice target because there are so many of us.

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-07-2004, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I still don't know why you're threatened. Christianity still is the majority religion, and if america truly is a christian nation, your god will see to it that it stays that way. btw, i agree that it's a little hypocritical to only exclude christian propoganda from holiday festivities.

Also little comments like this, what's the deal with that. Calling the manger scene "christian propoganda"? The birth of Jesus, not Jesus Christ, is one of the most historically relevant events in the entire history of our pathetic race of human beings. I can really see how it must be offensive to some to take notice of a man whose philosophy was to love your neighbor, care for the poor, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you

.

filtherton · 12-07-2004, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Also little comments like this, what's the deal with that. Calling the manger scene "christian propoganda"? The birth of Jesus, not Jesus Christ, is one of the most historically relevant events in the entire history of our pathetic race of human beings. I can really see how it must be offensive to some to take notice of a man whose philosophy was to love your neighbor, care for the poor, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you

.

It's not that historically relevant if you're not a christian. Besides, his birth is much less relevant than who he was. Imagine me claiming that the birth of mohammed or buddha was one of the most historically important occurrences in history. Do you think that would justify the peppering of their respective idols throughout public property? I realize that it is difficult to think objectively when you're working within a framework that often implies that objective thought buys one a ticket to hell, but bear with me. I don't have a problem with who jesus supposedly was. I think if this country were more christian, in the sense of what he actually taught, as opposed to how christians actually behave, we would all be much better off. Unfortunately, many christians seem to forget that the good christian's faith is internal, and is represented by his actions, not the things he decorates the public square with. A close personal relationship isn't one that need be showed off in public.

I'm still waiting to hear how christianity is threatened, too.

Quote:

Maybe the fundamental issue is change. Why do we have to change? I think we were doing a hell of a lot better before, but then again that is only one fundie's romantic idea of reality.

P.S.

I think the liberal American element likes to piss Christian people off, seriously. If you guys noticed it doesn't take much to get me ranting, and I'm not even that diehard. Christianity makes a nice target because there are so many of us.

Change is constant. I know you think we were doing a lot better before, but i doubt you could come up with a basis for this opinion.

If anything, i think pissing christians off just happens to be a byproduct of people trying to live their lives. Either that or getting pissed off makes the loudest christians feel important. In either case, i think you overstate your position by claiming that christians as a group are pissed off. I think you neglect to mention the silent majority, who seem to be not at all mad by the direction our country is going.

FoolThemAll · 12-07-2004, 02:20 PM

So...any word on what was actually in those pamphlets?

Being that the entire point of the thread hinges on that?

filtherton · 12-08-2004, 03:05 PM

<<<<<< Still waiting to hear how christianity is threatened, or how we were better off with it more in the public sphere, or acknowledgement that it is not and that we were not...

boatin · 12-09-2004, 01:36 AM

And I'm still waiting on an explaination of how Greek/Roman/Jewish morality pertaining to the modern philosophy of justice and morals gets credited to the christians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

The modern philosophy of justice and morals, stemming from Western Civilization are Christian ideal's. If you think otherwise, you are just willingly ignoring reality, there is no two ways about it.

That having been said, I agree with you Filth. Being Christian doesn't make you moral, it's something you have to work at, and I think ever good and decent Christian realizes this.

And I'm not limiting morality solely to Christianity, just in the context of western civilization.

No two ways about it???? um, ok... i'm guessing someone is ignoring reality, alright.

martinguerre · 12-09-2004, 08:12 AM

Quote:

this sudden crusade by the ACLU now? It wasn't even an issue before,

We had the 4th ammendment for our entire history. Mapp vs. Ohio, 1961, finally put teeth in it. That something is novel has no bearing on to if it is good for the country.

Manx · 12-09-2004, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

<<<<<< Still waiting to hear how christianity is threatened, or how we were better off with it more in the public sphere, or acknowledgement that it is not and that we were not...

I'm probably not the best person to answer for MoJo_PeiPei, but here's my impression of the threat:

Whenever anyone says that the Judeo-Christian principles of this country are under threat, what they are really saying is that Christians want to change things and people are trying to stop them from changing things.

Here's a perfect example. You can clearly see that there is a threat to a new initiative to get the 10 Commandments placed inside courthouses. The threat is so dire that the White House and Justice Dept. are speaking out in support of the this new change. Very likely, the belief that this is a threat to the principles, as opposed to a threat to the new demonstration of the principles, is due to a belief that it was always wrong that the 10 Commandments have not been displayed in courthouses. I.E., this is all just a continuation of the threat that has existed from day one of this country (and the fact that the White House is now on the side of those "threatened" shows the actual power shift that has taken place: the "threatened" have actually been gaining significant power). That this would mean this country, itself, is a threat to the supposed Judeo-Christian principles seems to be lost on those that insist this country is founded on those ideals.

Quote:

Ten Commandments Backed by Bush Administration in Court Fight

Dec. 8 (Bloomberg) -- The Bush administration, saying that religion ``has played a defining role'' in the nation's history, urged the U.S. Supreme Court to permit Ten Commandments displays in courthouses.

The Justice Department today filed a brief supporting two Kentucky counties accused of violating the constitutional ban on government establishment of religion by posting framed copies of the Ten Commandments.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...w_3Zc&refer=us

It is therefore my contention that Judeo-Christian principles, as advocated almost exclusively by Christians, are the real threat to this country. They are constantly attempting to force their changes on the entire country. It just so happens that when they are blocked, they whine about being "threatened".

11-29-2004, 08:24 PM	#44 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Ahh yes, let us bow before the great goddess. May she bless us and keep. Gaia. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

11-29-2004, 10:06 PM	#45 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	My "sniping" tolerance reservour is all used up. So it stops NOW. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

12-02-2004, 07:48 PM	#47 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	hey pedro, that's the way it was before about 1948 when the nice people of america wanted to differentiate themselves from the godless communists... listen to porky pig recite the pledge in one of the old cartoons, "one nation, indi..indi...indi...indivisible..." __________________ Live. Chris

12-03-2004, 03:29 PM	#49 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Some were Deists, some were Christian, most were Masons. I don't see any distortion of this "Right wing conspiracy to re-write history". Just about every important figure in American history, held God and what he respented for the country and to the people in the highest regard. They would turn in their graves if they knew the filth that was being spewed by the Christophobes of today. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

12-03-2004, 04:50 PM	#52 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	You're right, it's based off of the concepts of justice as passed down by the great philosophy known atheism. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

11-29-2004, 07:56 PM	#43 (permalink)
miyamotomusashi Upright Location: MA, USA	Standing ovation for kutulu If any one does not belive that right wing distortion is at work you should go see what is avaliable at your local schools and librarys or how about gov't run and funded web sites such as The Library of Congress (www.loc.gov). And if you read the Declaration of Independence you will see that they place god after nature and possessed (nature's god) by nature.

12-02-2004, 06:42 PM	#46 (permalink)
pedro padilla Insane	how bout just saying: one nation, indivisible. period. God, Allah, Buddah, Jehovah, Hari Krisna, Hailie Selassie, Lucifer, Elvis...... Just too many names for the kids to remember.

12-03-2004, 04:57 PM	#54 (permalink)
Manx Loser	The documents which founded this country are agnostic, not atheistic.

12-06-2004, 12:54 PM	#57 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	The modern philosophy of justice and morals, stemming from Western Civilization are Christian ideal's. If you think otherwise, you are just willingly ignoring reality, there is no two ways about it. That having been said, I agree with you Filth. Being Christian doesn't make you moral, it's something you have to work at, and I think ever good and decent Christian realizes this. And I'm not limiting morality solely to Christianity, just in the context of western civilization. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 12-06-2004 at 12:57 PM..

12-06-2004, 01:55 PM	#60 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	This country was fostered by cafeteria catholics. But let me ask you a legitimate question. Can you in anyway see why "christians" feel attacked? You don't think some of the politcal correctness and trying not to offend people has gone to far? __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

12-06-2004, 03:35 PM	#65 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	I'm not threatened or insecure in my beliefs, I respect other people's right to believe what they want. I just honestly think that the first amendment is being wrongfully interpreted and implemented, it's unlawful. Why should a majority be complecent, to a loud vocal minority, a very very small minority at that? Again for me, I'm not insecure. You might be surprised that although I am Catholic, I am a poor one. I see and recognize that catholicism and christianity alike have flaws, they always have and always will. But it's an issue of family. I can rip on my family all I want, but if someone outside the family starts causing problems that's when I have issues. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

12-06-2004, 04:34 PM	#68 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	I don't respect the bench over in the 9th circuit, the very fact that nearly 3/4's of all of it's decisions are overturned should really bring into question all of these landmark Christian-1st amendment decisions. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

12-06-2004, 07:23 PM	#71 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Well I could go into it, but we fundamentally disagree. You think Christianity has no revelence in the context of our history, nor do you feel that it had any bearing on our foundation. So really there is nothing to discuss. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

12-07-2004, 08:19 AM	#73 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Regarding the 9th circuit, it shows judicial activism, they are no longer interpreting the law they are making policy. It makes me uneasy, even if they do get checked. Just like how so many people here bitch about Bush aka "Hail to the Thief". Let's try this one last time. Was Christianity offensive and being shoved down people's throats for the last 220 years? Why is there this sudden crusade by the ACLU now? It wasn't even an issue before, I really didn't notice this "fundie" revolution. Do you guys perhaps think that maybe just maybe everything that has happened in politics recently, is the majority of people in America are sick of all of this? Maybe they do feel there is a place for God in society, doesn't mean it has to been it your face. Hell look at the Passion of the Christ, talk about a public backlash at the liberal American element. There is a cultural revolution in America right now, religion and Christianity play a big part in that. If the left succeeds in their attempts to completely remove it from public life, they take a lot of steam out of the engine. I am ranting, it's 10am I just woke up. Maybe the fundamental issue is change. Why do we have to change? I think we were doing a hell of a lot better before, but then again that is only one fundie's romantic idea of reality. P.S. I think the liberal American element likes to piss Christian people off, seriously. If you guys noticed it doesn't take much to get me ranting, and I'm not even that diehard. Christianity makes a nice target because there are so many of us. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 12-07-2004 at 08:21 AM..

12-07-2004, 02:20 PM	#76 (permalink)
FoolThemAll Walking is Still Honest Location: Seattle, WA	So...any word on what was actually in those pamphlets? Being that the entire point of the thread hinges on that? __________________ I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

12-08-2004, 03:05 PM	#77 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	<<<<<< Still waiting to hear how christianity is threatened, or how we were better off with it more in the public sphere, or acknowledgement that it is not and that we were not...