11-07-2004, 05:50 PM | #1 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
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Ground assault on Faluja commences
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And from earlier today... Quote:
I've highlighted portions I think are noteworthy. I guess the desertion of an Iraqi who has first-hand knowledge of the assault plans is not a good thing. Hopefully it won't turn out to be a massacre; either of civilians or US/Iraqi forces. And now my own, non-partisan, question. How on Earth can this battle be won? I don't want a political answer. I'm just at a loss as to how this kind of resistance can be overcome without wholesale death and destruction being inflicted upon the Iraqi people. And even then, that's not a real victory. What do you think about the suggested compromise that would allow the Sunni's carefully guaranteed freedom to contest the poll in January? Would the US allow that and, if not, why not? Fear of another Iran? But if it was democratic, would that not be hypocracy? Mr Mephisto |
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11-07-2004, 06:31 PM | #3 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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They did pretty good.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-07-2004, 06:37 PM | #4 (permalink) |
Loser
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But now a lot of our guys have combat experience.
I spoke with a guy who returned from Iraq and he wanted to go back. His wife wouldn't let him. He told me they've been pulling out all the experience and replacing it with fresh off the boat. He was pissed. If a lack of combat experience somehow equates to a greater ability to achieve objectives, then maybe I'm wrong. |
11-07-2004, 06:43 PM | #5 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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This is going to be absolutely fascinating, and I hope it is covered as much as humanly possible. The application of state-of-the-art intelligence and technology in an extremely volatile, difficult and dangerous urban military application. Marine Commanders have had months to plan this; it will be most interesting to see how things now actually unfold on the battlefield. This Fallujah campaign will no doubt serve as a prototype (win or lose) for modern urban warfare for years to come.
As far as taking the hospital first, I understand it is "so that workers there could attend to casualties without facing intimidation by insurgents, and to end its use as a source of anti-U.S. propaganda, as well as prevent insurgent medical care" under the assertion that "...In the past, hospital officials had said U.S. airstrikes killed only innocent civilians, a claim that the U.S. military disputed." Makes sense. Quote:
Last edited by powerclown; 11-07-2004 at 09:21 PM.. |
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11-07-2004, 07:18 PM | #6 (permalink) |
An embarrassment to myself and those around me...
Location: Pants
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Well it's been building for awhile, guess it was bound to happen sometime. My video game warped mind doesn't see a way to take the city without first leveling it, but I'm no general, unless of course they have Tommy Vercetti, he seems pretty good at single handedly taking over a city
In all seriousness though, it makes me sad to know a lot more people may die before this is over.
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11-07-2004, 07:25 PM | #7 (permalink) |
Huggles, sir?
Location: Seattle
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I'm not one to pray, but I wish our men and women in the armed forces luck and success in Fellujah.
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seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames |
11-07-2004, 07:29 PM | #8 (permalink) | |
Squid
Location: USS George Washington
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These are murderers, fanatical zealots who kill innocents every day. Now it's time to put down the insurgency. Best of luck to my brothers and sisters on the ground, hopefully their stories of heroism in combat won't get buried behind the partisan garbage this war generates daily. -Mikey |
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11-07-2004, 07:49 PM | #9 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: st. louis
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this had to happen sooner rather than later because we wnat a stable i raq as soon as posible. without that stability our economy is suffering this war was about oil and that is what our economy is based on. you have to give one to your side to be president and thats what bush did hopefully we can start to take some real control there.
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11-07-2004, 08:16 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
The sky calls to us ...
Super Moderator
Location: CT
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11-07-2004, 08:26 PM | #12 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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this is clearly a post-election move.
i am not optimistic about how this will play out since it looks like a general retaliatory move rather than a precision one. i do not watch this with any fascination. i hope for minimal deaths all the way around.
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11-07-2004, 09:28 PM | #13 (permalink) | |
Gentlemen Farmer
Location: Middle of nowhere, Jersey
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I don't follow what you mean by "general retaliatory move rather then a precision one." Both can easily co-exist and one doesn't negate or even require the other? I also hope for minimal deaths, but realistically understand that minimal is more likely for the US and massive is probably what's in store for the insurgency. -bear btw Roachboy...fwiw, I've been meaning to compliment you as your wriiting style, vocabulary, and passion in your posts is extremely captivating. I rarely agree with your position, but certainly read your opinions with interest. You're a diamond in the rough!
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It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission. Last edited by j8ear; 11-07-2004 at 09:32 PM.. |
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11-07-2004, 09:48 PM | #14 (permalink) |
can't help but laugh
Location: dar al-harb
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wow... sounds like we're gearing up again.
as always, i pray for my brothers and sisters in arms and their families who wonder if they'll see them again. the new iraqi soldiers are also on my mind. they're in the difficult position of laying siege to a city in their own country. it must be hard for them to stay steadfast and resolute... yet the stability of the country and it's future are on their shoulders. i pray that they have the courage to win decisively and maintain the discipline necessary to avoiding more divisions w/their fellow iraqi countrymen down the road.
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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill |
11-07-2004, 10:06 PM | #15 (permalink) |
whosoever
Location: New England
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the loss of iraqi lives is simply staggering. i simply cannot see an end to the bloodshed...and perhaps that is a sin of inactive imagination, but i fear what we have unleashed is a genocide.
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11-07-2004, 10:10 PM | #16 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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Are you trying to imply I was biased in my opinion of what was noteworthy? Do we really have to go down this route again? SIGH Mr Mephisto |
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11-07-2004, 10:11 PM | #17 (permalink) |
is awesome!
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Richard Clarke predicted this offensive months ago on the Daily Show, turns out he was right. Of course that also means that any Iraqi insurgent has seen this coming for months as well. Obviously the insurgents will flee or hide during this offensive and strike again once the pressure is off "The US military said it expected about 5000 insurgents in Falluja but revised its estimate to 1200 at the weekend." duh ever heard of guerilla warfare? Apparently our generals have not.
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11-07-2004, 10:17 PM | #18 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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I'll trust the generals more than you.
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11-07-2004, 11:17 PM | #20 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-07-2004, 11:25 PM | #22 (permalink) |
Somnabulist
Location: corner of No and Where
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Ustwo, this is not a war nor a battle fought by the generals (not that I have infinite faith in them, either). This is a war created and fought by Bush and his neocons. Generals were ridiculed when they asked for more troops; soon enough, the Bushies were pushing a backdoor draft to supply them with enough men. The attack on Fallujah could have taken place over a long period of time. It waited until now because Bush put what he felt was the best plan of attack in Iraq on hold until after the election for no reason other than to futher his personal desire to be reelected.
Not that I think that the attack on Fallujah is good policy (it is quite the opposite), but Bush did. And he held off until it would help his reelection chances the most. In the mean time, soldiers and civilians were dying in droves every day. What a guy, that Bush.
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11-07-2004, 11:37 PM | #23 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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I also suggest you ask the Russians and the inhabitants of Grozny. Of course, it all depends upon your definition of "victory". If you believe whole-sale destruction, high casualties for Allied troops, unknown but doubtlessly very high civilian casualties and a complete PR disaster are acceptable in your idea of victory, then you may continue to disagree. But of course, if you believe that, why not simply carpet bomb the entire city? Mr Mephisto |
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11-07-2004, 11:44 PM | #24 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-08-2004, 01:52 AM | #25 (permalink) |
Junkie
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Hah... Well, I guess that's a fair comment.
But isn't the press in a fair and open society meant to criticize the government and/or expose and report topics of interest? That's what we were always told when growing up. Another reason why Fox News is both lauded and laughed at (depening upon where you stand on the issue of independent media), as it so obviously does not follow an independent line. Mr Mephisto |
11-08-2004, 06:35 AM | #26 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Mattoon, Il
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11-08-2004, 08:20 AM | #27 (permalink) |
Banned from being Banned
Location: Donkey
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I haven't been paying attention to the news lately, but why is this battle so important (more so than any other in the past?)
So we win the battle in this next round of heavy advancement, then what? I know it's an enemy stronghold (or as some like to call it "terrorist" stronghold), but aside from that.. what's the big deal here? Is taking this city supposed to suppress most of the random attacks over the country or something?
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11-08-2004, 09:16 AM | #28 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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11-08-2004, 09:48 AM | #29 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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powerclown:
i wonder whether what you say in no. 28 reflects the same kind of wishful thinking that you saw in the algerian war and again in vietnam: what the adversary is, at some level, centralized, that it has a command structure that is symmetrical with that of the national army, that it has a head that can be cut off. do you think that this characterization is accurate with reference to american strategy here? do you think that strategy sits on an accurate assessment of the opposition in iraq? i am not an expert on military strategy, but it does not seem accurate, given the diffuse character of the insurgency, physically, tactically, in iraq. it is because i am skeptical about this that i wonder whether the attack is a general response (this is what happens if you fuck with us) rather than t specific one (this operation will incapacitate a particular insrugent organization or series of them)--i cann see this going either way. if the former, i expect the actual battle will be about brutality because it is the brutality itself that is sending the real message. if the latter, then things might go otherwise.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
11-08-2004, 10:30 AM | #30 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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Hi-Resolution Map of Fallujah (3.7mb) The Operation is now fully underway. In April, Coalition Forces tried to take Fallujah from the SE. This time they are entering from the NW, based on a peninsula lying West of the Euphrates. Two bridges (one of them the same bridge where insurgents had strung up the mutilated US contractors) and a hospital have been secured; the most dangerous sector of Fallujah is considered the Jolan District in the NW quarter of the city, which might explain the new incursion point. The Campaign will be in three phases: Phase I: Shaping the Battlespace, Phase II: Ground Assault, Phase III: Exploitation, Pursuit, Reconstruction. British forces of the Black Watch have moved to positions east of the Euphrates, at the request of US military commanders, in order to "stop reinforcements moving north and block the way of insurgents leaving the city." Quote:
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11-08-2004, 04:57 PM | #31 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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Well, firstly I never said they were. Secondly, Fox is universally acknowledged as being more partisan than others. Thirdly, Fox is used as an example of a biased network. I couldn't care less about arguing the CNN vs Fox nonesense anymore (I got so tired of it in the run up to the election), but I was simply using Fox as a perfectly appropriate example of a skewed news network. Mr Mephisto |
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11-08-2004, 05:02 PM | #32 (permalink) | ||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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In fact Fox is viewed as LESS biased then some. Also note this report was done before CBS tried to win one for Kerry.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-08-2004, 05:06 PM | #33 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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at some point, you might try looking at actual studies of netowrk biais, ustwo, instead of simply repeating the conventional "wisdom" that circultes in right circles about how you are o so persecuted.
thanks for the information, powerclown: when i have a bit more time, i'll check around and have a look at your map as well.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
11-24-2004, 10:58 PM | #34 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-25-2004, 01:00 AM | #35 (permalink) |
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ha ha, true it's over but did it help?
next target is the triangle of death, which was called the sunni triangle until two days ago? i do hope they get it all ship shape-ish for the election. i guess i'm kind of skeptical but i would really like a success over there. 5 bil a month is starting to hurt. |
11-25-2004, 09:49 AM | #37 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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looks like i might have been closer to right than i thought, eh?
fallujah was predicated on the illusion that there was a centralized, single movement runing the show. there isnt. there have been a number of articles appearing in the non american press concerning protests by various countries/ngos of american "excessive force" in fallujah--which pushes interpretation of it toward a show of brute force, like amsterdam in 1940, then toward the precision operation it was marketed as being for domestic consumption. funny, isnt it?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
11-25-2004, 09:49 AM | #38 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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assault, commences, faluja, ground |
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