Ground assault on Faluja commences
 

REF: http://www.smh.com.au/news/After-Sad...81272661.html#

And from earlier today...

REF: http://www.smh.com.au/news/After-Sad...781250203.html


I've highlighted portions I think are noteworthy.

I guess the desertion of an Iraqi who has first-hand knowledge of the assault plans is not a good thing.

Hopefully it won't turn out to be a massacre; either of civilians or US/Iraqi forces.

And now my own, non-partisan, question.

How on Earth can this battle be won? I don't want a political answer. I'm just at a loss as to how this kind of resistance can be overcome without wholesale death and destruction being inflicted upon the Iraqi people. And even then, that's not a real victory.

What do you think about the suggested compromise that would allow the Sunni's carefully guaranteed freedom to contest the poll in January? Would the US allow that and, if not, why not? Fear of another Iran? But if it was democratic, would that not be hypocracy?


Mr Mephisto

I'd love to hear the rationale behind this:

How much combat experiance do you think our guys had when the war started?

They did pretty good.

But now a lot of our guys have combat experience.

I spoke with a guy who returned from Iraq and he wanted to go back. His wife wouldn't let him. He told me they've been pulling out all the experience and replacing it with fresh off the boat. He was pissed.

If a lack of combat experience somehow equates to a greater ability to achieve objectives, then maybe I'm wrong.

This is going to be absolutely fascinating, and I hope it is covered as much as humanly possible. The application of state-of-the-art intelligence and technology in an extremely volatile, difficult and dangerous urban military application. Marine Commanders have had months to plan this; it will be most interesting to see how things now actually unfold on the battlefield. This Fallujah campaign will no doubt serve as a prototype (win or lose) for modern urban warfare for years to come.

As far as taking the hospital first, I understand it is "so that workers there could attend to casualties without facing intimidation by insurgents, and to end its use as a source of anti-U.S. propaganda, as well as prevent insurgent medical care" under the assertion that "...In the past, hospital officials had said U.S. airstrikes killed only innocent civilians, a claim that the U.S. military disputed." Makes sense.

Well it's been building for awhile, guess it was bound to happen sometime. My video game warped mind doesn't see a way to take the city without first leveling it, but I'm no general, unless of course they have Tommy Vercetti, he seems pretty good at single handedly taking over a city ;)


In all seriousness though, it makes me sad to know a lot more people may die before this is over.

I'm not one to pray, but I wish our men and women in the armed forces luck and success in Fellujah.

No highlights here? Why?

These are murderers, fanatical zealots who kill innocents every day. Now it's time to put down the insurgency. Best of luck to my brothers and sisters on the ground, hopefully their stories of heroism in combat won't get buried behind the partisan garbage this war generates daily.

-Mikey

this had to happen sooner rather than later because we wnat a stable i raq as soon as posible. without that stability our economy is suffering this war was about oil and that is what our economy is based on. you have to give one to your side to be president and thats what bush did hopefully we can start to take some real control there.

That's about all I can say. I don't think there's anything else I can do or say.

You didnt expect bush or whoever really runs this country to do this BEFORE the election, did you?

this is clearly a post-election move.
i am not optimistic about how this will play out since it looks like a general retaliatory move rather than a precision one.
i do not watch this with any fascination.
i hope for minimal deaths all the way around.

Definately a post election move, I agree. It seems like the decisions of a wise and rational commander-in-chief, all things considered. (not that Bush is that, just that the decision to wait till after the election is sound).

I don't follow what you mean by "general retaliatory move rather then a precision one." Both can easily co-exist and one doesn't negate or even require the other?

I also hope for minimal deaths, but realistically understand that minimal is more likely for the US and massive is probably what's in store for the insurgency.

-bear

btw Roachboy...fwiw, I've been meaning to compliment you as your wriiting style, vocabulary, and passion in your posts is extremely captivating. I rarely agree with your position, but certainly read your opinions with interest. You're a diamond in the rough!

wow... sounds like we're gearing up again.

as always, i pray for my brothers and sisters in arms and their families who wonder if they'll see them again.

the new iraqi soldiers are also on my mind. they're in the difficult position of laying siege to a city in their own country. it must be hard for them to stay steadfast and resolute... yet the stability of the country and it's future are on their shoulders. i pray that they have the courage to win decisively and maintain the discipline necessary to avoiding more divisions w/their fellow iraqi countrymen down the road.

the loss of iraqi lives is simply staggering. i simply cannot see an end to the bloodshed...and perhaps that is a sin of inactive imagination, but i fear what we have unleashed is a genocide.

No highlights there because I didn't highlight them.

Are you trying to imply I was biased in my opinion of what was noteworthy? Do we really have to go down this route again?

SIGH

Mr Mephisto

Richard Clarke predicted this offensive months ago on the Daily Show, turns out he was right. Of course that also means that any Iraqi insurgent has seen this coming for months as well. Obviously the insurgents will flee or hide during this offensive and strike again once the pressure is off "The US military said it expected about 5000 insurgents in Falluja but revised its estimate to 1200 at the weekend." duh ever heard of guerilla warfare? Apparently our generals have not.

Since there were negotiations for months, this doesn't take a great brain to figure out.

I'll trust the generals more than you.

Taking a city that is defended, house by house, is nigh near impossible.

Just ask the Israelis.

Mr Mephisto

Wanna bet?

I think Mr. Mephisto has a good point. I'll admit that i don't know too much about military engagements, but take a look at Somalia and Stalingrad, both were as tough as nails to conquer.

Ustwo, this is not a war nor a battle fought by the generals (not that I have infinite faith in them, either). This is a war created and fought by Bush and his neocons. Generals were ridiculed when they asked for more troops; soon enough, the Bushies were pushing a backdoor draft to supply them with enough men. The attack on Fallujah could have taken place over a long period of time. It waited until now because Bush put what he felt was the best plan of attack in Iraq on hold until after the election for no reason other than to futher his personal desire to be reelected.

Not that I think that the attack on Fallujah is good policy (it is quite the opposite), but Bush did. And he held off until it would help his reelection chances the most. In the mean time, soldiers and civilians were dying in droves every day.

What a guy, that Bush.

Yes. Yes I do.

I also suggest you ask the Russians and the inhabitants of Grozny.

Of course, it all depends upon your definition of "victory". If you believe whole-sale destruction, high casualties for Allied troops, unknown but doubtlessly very high civilian casualties and a complete PR disaster are acceptable in your idea of victory, then you may continue to disagree.

But of course, if you believe that, why not simply carpet bomb the entire city?


Mr Mephisto

Don't worry, no matter what the outcome the press will do their best to make it a complete PR disaster.

Hah... Well, I guess that's a fair comment.

But isn't the press in a fair and open society meant to criticize the government and/or expose and report topics of interest? That's what we were always told when growing up. Another reason why Fox News is both lauded and laughed at (depening upon where you stand on the issue of independent media), as it so obviously does not follow an independent line.

Mr Mephisto

Please, CNN, CBS News, ABC News, C-Span, or USA Today aren't exactly what I'd consider "indepedent" media either.

I haven't been paying attention to the news lately, but why is this battle so important (more so than any other in the past?)

So we win the battle in this next round of heavy advancement, then what? I know it's an enemy stronghold (or as some like to call it "terrorist" stronghold), but aside from that.. what's the big deal here?

Is taking this city supposed to suppress most of the random attacks over the country or something?

Fallujah is the ideological, spiritual, financial, strategic and physical center of the insurgency in Iraq. The city itself is run by insurgents, meaning it is out of the control of Prime Minister Allawi and the Interim Govt. The theory is that, when Fallujah (and a few other cities overrun by insurgents) goes, so goes the insurgency, so goes the intimidation/killing of potential voters. And with the insurgency gone (or diminished), elections in January will be more of a possibility.

powerclown:
i wonder whether what you say in no. 28 reflects the same kind of wishful thinking that you saw in the algerian war and again in vietnam: what the adversary is, at some level, centralized, that it has a command structure that is symmetrical with that of the national army, that it has a head that can be cut off. do you think that this characterization is accurate with reference to american strategy here?
do you think that strategy sits on an accurate assessment of the opposition in iraq?

i am not an expert on military strategy, but it does not seem accurate, given the diffuse character of the insurgency, physically, tactically, in iraq.

it is because i am skeptical about this that i wonder whether the attack is a general response (this is what happens if you fuck with us) rather than t specific one (this operation will incapacitate a particular insrugent organization or series of them)--i cann see this going either way. if the former, i expect the actual battle will be about brutality because it is the brutality itself that is sending the real message. if the latter, then things might go otherwise.

I do, yes. Its been 6 months that the Coalition has had to gather intelligence and satellite recon, so I believe the situation is well understood by all parties involved. Its a simple strategy: wrest control out of the hands of the insurgents, deny them their sanctuary, destroy their command & control structure (which is believed to be based in Fallujah), put the town back under the authority of the Iraqi Government, stop civilian intimidation and allow for popular election. What is unfortunate is that this should have been done back during the War in 2003; its just going to make things that much harder and bloodier now, as the insurgents have had time to dig in and fortify their defenses.

Hi-Resolution Map of Fallujah (3.7mb)

The Operation is now fully underway.

In April, Coalition Forces tried to take Fallujah from the SE. This time they are entering from the NW, based on a peninsula lying West of the Euphrates. Two bridges (one of them the same bridge where insurgents had strung up the mutilated US contractors) and a hospital have been secured; the most dangerous sector of Fallujah is considered the Jolan District in the NW quarter of the city, which might explain the new incursion point. The Campaign will be in three phases: Phase I: Shaping the Battlespace, Phase II: Ground Assault, Phase III: Exploitation, Pursuit, Reconstruction.

British forces of the Black Watch have moved to positions east of the Euphrates, at the request of US military commanders, in order to "stop reinforcements moving north and block the way of insurgents leaving the city."

SIGH

Well, firstly I never said they were.
Secondly, Fox is universally acknowledged as being more partisan than others.
Thirdly, Fox is used as an example of a biased network.

I couldn't care less about arguing the CNN vs Fox nonesense anymore (I got so tired of it in the run up to the election), but I was simply using Fox as a perfectly appropriate example of a skewed news network.


Mr Mephisto

Only amoung the liberal circles. When it comes to the average person ALL networks are considered equally biased.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Broadcast%20Bias.htm

In fact Fox is viewed as LESS biased then some. Also note this report was done before CBS tried to win one for Kerry.

at some point, you might try looking at actual studies of netowrk biais, ustwo, instead of simply repeating the conventional "wisdom" that circultes in right circles about how you are o so persecuted.

thanks for the information, powerclown: when i have a bit more time, i'll check around and have a look at your map as well.

Oh Mr. Mephisto...... what is nigh near impossible again?

:lol:

ha ha, true it's over but did it help?

next target is the triangle of death, which was called the sunni triangle until two days ago? i do hope they get it all ship shape-ish for the election. i guess i'm kind of skeptical but i would really like a success over there. 5 bil a month is starting to hurt.

The fight is over now but whether or not it was successful is yet to be said. We will see if the resistance lives on or not. The big problem is while we were assulting Falluja we lost control of every other major city.

looks like i might have been closer to right than i thought, eh?
fallujah was predicated on the illusion that there was a centralized, single movement runing the show. there isnt.
there have been a number of articles appearing in the non american press concerning protests by various countries/ngos of american "excessive force" in fallujah--which pushes interpretation of it toward a show of brute force, like amsterdam in 1940, then toward the precision operation it was marketed as being for domestic consumption.

funny, isnt it?

Overstatement of the year award.

yeah we really won their hearts and minds. Showed them the beauty of American style democracy. Any day now they´ll start throwing those flowers.

Look on the positive side. There are now 1200 dead bad guys. No matter how you slice it, that's a good thing.