Sad Times... (Not what you think) - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Booboo · 11-05-2004, 07:51 AM

Kind of taken out of context, post I made in the "Just listen to yourselves..." thread. I thought about it and I think it would be beneficial for all of you to read, and maybe we can start talk of how can can remedy some of the problems we have now.

Why do ideals like "Life, Liberty, and the persuit of Happiness" have to be in a document like the constitution for them to ring true for some people? They shouldn't even have to be written down. These are things that EVERY person in this country should hold true. And regardless of them being "law" or not, this country was founded on these Ideals. These ideals are what make this such a great place to live.

Some of the opinions i've seen in this thread give me a feeling of deep sadness and loss of hope for our future. We are never going to go anywhere if shit like this is even an issue. In the whole scope of things, what does it matter if two people of the same sex get married or not? The Bible may disagree with same sex relationships, but guess what, a lot of people dont follow the Bible and you have NO RIGHT to force your religious views onto someone else.

And I hope people realize this post is not about same sex marriages.

Screw Presidents, Screw Government (meaning they should be irrelivant on these points, not that we shouldn't have them), this is OUR country. We are fucking it up and have no one to blame but ourselves. Its because of our division and lack of respect for eachother AND other countries that shit like 9/11 can happen.

We as a people are so arrogant and full of ourselves that we completely forget there is an entire universe out there, and we are a speck of dust that means nothing. All we can do is sit back and enjoy the small amount of time we have here. People think about trivial issues way too much and I really hope we can all get past them at some point, or there is no hope for us.

I hope you will reflect on life after reading this and REALLY think about whats important.

I hope my point came through ok, thats all that matterd in this post.

Oh, and the quote in my sig fits nicely with this post.

Stompy · 11-05-2004, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booboo

Some of the opinions i've seen in this thread give me a feeling of deep sadness and loss of hope for our future. We are never going to go anywhere if shit like this is even an issue. In the whole scope of things, what the fuck does it matter if two people of the same sex get married or not? The Bible may disagree with same sex relationships, but guess what, a lot of people dont follow the Bible and you have NO RIGHT to force your religious views onto someone else.

I agree 100%.

Unfortunately, people are too ignorant to realize this. Likewise, "All men are created equal" mean nothing to them - the very ideal that this country was founded upon.

Then they retort with, "You just have a different perspective on it. We need to work together," which is absurd. That would be like trying to compromise with a racist. "Hey, we hate black/mexican/asians and want to deny them rights to do things that we think we are entitled to do as well, but your opposing view is just your opinion. I want to work with you to find a solution in the middle." There is no middle. The solution is simple: everyone is equal.

If you don't like it, then tough.

rukkyg · 11-05-2004, 08:10 AM

Administrative edit: This inflammatory post is now gone.

KMA-628 · 11-05-2004, 08:14 AM

this ain't gonna go well.....

smooth · 11-05-2004, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMA-628

this ain't gonna go well.....

I was thinking the same thing.

and I had some funny shit to say in response, but I'm keeping it to myself.

Booboo · 11-05-2004, 08:24 AM

Err.. thanks Art.

That post and attitude only make things worse.

ARTelevision · 11-05-2004, 08:26 AM

Inflammatory posting is not at all respectful. This is not a place for anger management therapy.

rukkyg · 11-05-2004, 08:30 AM

Oh my God....

Stompy · 11-05-2004, 08:31 AM

Your last post should be edited, too.

You used the lord's name in vain! I am offended beyond belief!

Booboo · 11-05-2004, 08:32 AM

Did you read my post?! this isn't about that at all. Its my honest and truthfull view on things.

Well shit.. so much for that... thought this would spark better conversation from many of the intelligent people on this board

aliali · 11-05-2004, 08:38 AM

O.K. here's why those things have to be in the constitution to have legal effect. The constitution is the rule book. The government is otherwise soverign and can do whatever the hell it wants. A whole bunch of people agreed to this over 200 years ago and the only way we can change it is by amendment or revolution. It's great to talk about what you or I may think about life, liberty, and other such stuff, but ultimately, it is the constitution that grants those rights that cannot be abridged by legislation or ballot initiative. I don't believe the right to gay marriage, and a lot of other things are in there. Others disagree. The problem I am seeing in these threads is the contempt for the majority and a misunderstanding of their power. There are a lot of things that the majority can do in this country. That's why elections are important.

If the argument is why the majority would do such a thing as ban gay marriage, I really don't have an answer. The majority gets a lot of things right and wrong and there is always disagreement. However, I cannot understand how anyone could be surprised by the votes on Tues. You get one state supreme court from Mass. that makes a decision out of the blue that arguably impacts every state (full faith and credit) that is terribly bad law and horribly unpopular. If one wants to push for gay marriage, the exact wrong way to go about it is to have four very liberal judges change the rules and ignore the law rather than trying to change minds. Then you have a number of mayors in other states go around and blatantly ignore the law. This isn't a discussion, it is arrogance. And it doesn't win friends and influence people.

Incidentally, I don't care one way or the other on gay marriage.

ARTelevision · 11-05-2004, 08:39 AM

Last chance for this thread.

As you know, this is not going to be a time for rancor here.

The thread's proceeding decently for now...

wnker85 · 11-05-2004, 08:40 AM

Things like this take time. Look at the last 5o years, Blacks fought to be thought of as equals, before that they were equal with dirt (sad to say). Look how long it took for the blacks to truly be equal, and they were not thought of as equal by our founding fathers.
So, I think that all you need just to wait it out. Social progress takes time, and we are at the best we have ever been in the history of our species. Yes there is going to be hate and fear everywhere, but you can not make people accept everyone. The future is bright in civil rights, but it will take time.

But not to sound too harsh, it doesn’t help your argument to through a fit because others don’t agree with you. One day all will be equal, and while you ask for respect you must give it first.

For the record I would like to keep marriage a man and woman ideal, but I can not oppose it on others, I feel that it is sad that they are taking a intuition that has been apart of religion my religion and others and destroying what is was meant to be.

Booboo · 11-05-2004, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliali

O.K. here's why those things have to be in the constitution to have legal effect. The constitution is the rule book. The government is otherwise soverign and can do whatever the hell it wants. A whole bunch of people agreed to this over 200 years ago and the only way we can change it is by amendment or revolution. It's great to talk about what you or I may think about life, liberty, and other such stuff, but ultimately, it is the constitution that grants those rights that cannot be abridged by legislation or ballot initiative. I don't believe the right to gay marriage, and a lot of other things are in there. Others disagree. The problem I am seeing in these threads is the contempt for the majority and a misunderstanding of their power. There are a lot of things that the majority can do in this country. That's why elections are important.

If the argument is why the majority would do such a thing as ban gay marriage, I really don't have an answer. The majority gets a lot of things right and wrong and there is always disagreement. However, I cannot understand how anyone could be surprised by the votes on Tues. You get one state supreme court from Mass. that makes a decision out of the blue that arguably impacts every state (full faith and credit) that is terribly bad law and horribly unpopular. If one wants to push for gay marriage, the exact wrong way to go about it is to have four very liberal judges change the rules and ignore the law rather than trying to change minds. Then you have a number of mayors in other states go around and blatantly ignore the law. This isn't a discussion, it is arrogance. And it doesn't win friends and influence people.

Incidentally, I don't care one way or the other on gay marriage.

I understand why the constitution is there and what its purose is. I am not disputing that. I am not trying to argue anything really, I am trying to make a point, which apparently didn't come through very well, because everyone is still getting hung up on the gay marriage part of the post which was simply to help the point I was trying to make. This post was not to argue about anything. It was to try and get people to look at the larger picture.

Quote:

Things like this take time. Look at the last 5o years, Blacks fought to be thought of as equals, before that they were equal with dirt (sad to say). Look how long it took for the blacks to truly be equal, and they were not thought of as equal by our founding fathers.
So, I think that all you need just to wait it out. Social progress takes time, and we are at the best we have ever been in the history of our species. Yes there is going to be hate and fear everywhere, but you can not make people accept everyone. The future is bright in civil rights, but it will take time.

But not to sound too harsh, it doesn’t help your argument to through a fit because others don’t agree with you. One day all will be equal, and while you ask for respect you must give it first.

For the record I would like to keep marriage a man and woman ideal, but I can not oppose it on others, I feel that it is sad that they are taking a intuition that has been apart of religion my religion and others and destroying what is was meant to be.

Apparently you didn't get my point either... I am not throwing a fit because others dont agree with me (I probably shouldn't have used the profanity, but it felt right when I was writing it). I dont even know if others agree with me, which was why I posted this.. to see who does or does not and what they think about it. This was not about the gay marriage, I used it to try and add to the point I was making. There are plenty of other threads about that topic.

Stompy · 11-05-2004, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnker85

For the record I would like to keep marriage a man and woman ideal, but I can not oppose it on others, I feel that it is sad that they are taking a intuition that has been apart of religion my religion and others and destroying what is was meant to be.

My main beef with everything is how people are such hypocrites (and I'm not referring to you).

The very people who claim to love this country and want to do what's right, yet they shit all over the very basic freemdoms that are granted to everyone regardless of race, color, sex, sexual orientation, penis size, whatthefuckever.

These are the same people who, time and time again, fail to give a coherent logical reason as to why (for example), a gay couple shouldn't enjoy the same GOVERNMENTAL BENEFITS of being civilly united (aka, married). For this particular example, it has nothing to do with religion anymore regardless of where it started for the simple fact the government decided to dip their hand in the jar and provide additional benefits for those who choose this status. This status applies whether you are pagan, jewish, arab, christian, catholic, scientologist, or whatthefuckever.

The government is not allowed to make legislation based upon religious morals - there is separation of church and state, and that must be followed and respected regardless of your beliefs.

Yet, people think they are an exception. They can't give a locial reason why THEY are allowed special benefits being married, yet others aren't. Why, because of their sex? *ding ding* Sexual discrimination.

If you support this country and everything it was founded upon, then you have to do it across the board. You can't say, "oh, my religion believes this, so I think I'll make an exception." Bzzzt. Doesn't work like that.

At the same time, if you feel marriage is part of your religion and should mean something, then you should get mad at the government for allowing others outside of your religion to have privileges... because once the govt steps in, everyone HAS to be treated equally in that aspect regardless of their (or your) beliefs. There's no exceptions.

I agree, it'll take time and eventually things will get straightened out, but it's HILARIOUS at the amount of people who don't understand that.

Like I've said in other threads, I don't have a problem with conservative views at all - it's just the hyprocrisy surrounding it all. You can't be supportive of what this country stands for, yet at the same time make a conscious decision to deny privileges or rights to a certain group of people based on sex (and this does include preference), race, or religion because of YOUR beliefs. That's just not how this country works!

alansmithee · 11-05-2004, 10:49 AM

Quote:

These are things that EVERY person in this country should hold true.

Quote:

If you don't like it, then tough.

Man, we got some real highminded, freethinking, idealists here.

Again, everyone seems really hung up on the gay marriage issue. I have given coherent logical reasons why a group of people who choose to identify themselves by a behavior should not be given special rights over those who do not perform that behavior. When there is a dispute about these things, that's where the gov't comes in to decide. And it was decided, overwhelmingly.

Quote:

The government is not allowed to make legislation based upon religious morals - there is separation of church and state, and that must be followed and respected regardless of your beliefs.

Actually the government cannot establish a state religion, or promote one religion over another. Many laws that are in the country are based in Judeo-christian beliefs. And would you accept the government making legislation based on someone's personal morals, if they weren't based in religion?

Quote:

At the same time, if you feel marriage is part of your religion and should mean something, then you should get mad at the government for allowing others outside of your religion to have privileges... because once the govt steps in, everyone HAS to be treated equally in that aspect regardless of their (or your) beliefs. There's no exceptions.

I think I will remember this the next time Rosh Hashanah comes around so I can get it off of work, can't have the Jews hogging all the holidays. Now, I also can't be forced to work on Saturdays either.

Quote:

sex (and this does include preference),

Your opinion, not mine. Why are you forcing your atheist/agnostic views on me?

filtherton · 11-05-2004, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

Man, we got some real highminded, freethinking, idealists here.

Again, everyone seems really hung up on the gay marriage issue. I have given coherent logical reasons why a group of people who choose to identify themselves by a behavior should not be given special rights over those who do not perform that behavior. When there is a dispute about these things, that's where the gov't comes in to decide. And it was decided, overwhelmingly.

I must've missed those coherent logical reasons.

The ironic thing about conservatism in america today is that the standard conservative line is that the government isn't qualified to regulate business, but it is qualified to regulate social behavior. The government can tell a man what he can or can't do with another man, but they'll be damned if it is any of the government's business what one man does with another man's money. How is that a consistent perspective?? You might be able to say the opposite about the liberal side, but that isn't really important for this thread.

Booboo · 11-05-2004, 11:05 AM

You dont beleive people in this country should value the ideal of "Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness"? if not, then why not?

And while I hesitate to continue the gay marriage topic, as that was not what i intended this thread to be about, please tell me again, why 2 men or 2 women should not be allowed the same benefits of being married as a man and woman?

You said in a previous thread that you do know gay people. Well, why not walk up to one and tell them face to face, that you are superior. And because they are different, they cannot persue marriage with another person of the same sex, regardless of their feelings towards that person.

Stompy · 11-05-2004, 11:14 AM

You have yet to provide anything worthwhile in any post of mine you respond to, alan - just a bunch of examples that make no sense (ie "don't pass your athiest/agnostic views on to me").

You can't reverse it and turn it back on me as if I'm imposing some type of limitation on others - what limitation am I imposing? Oooh, wait, I'm limiting your ability to live a life free of gays? Oh, so sorry!

I'm the one speaking up FOR removing a limitation in an attempt to allow everyone to be equal.

Not only that, but you miss the entire point of what I'm trying to say time and time again. Please stop wasting my time.

[edit]
Your "coherent" reason for not allowing gays was: "business shouldn't support those who can't produce children." My point exactly - always trying to limit the privileges others get.

Why? What sense does that make? You even said that a man/woman who can't have children shouldn't get benefits. You are the one going around imposing limitations (based on your beliefs) to others, not me (regardless of how hard you try to turn it around on me to prove some nonsensical point you try to make).

*You* are the one saying, "You shouldn't be able to do this if this". I'm the one saying, "Who gives a shit? It doesn't bother you or affect you, so get over it and quit trying to fuck with the way others live their lives."

11-05-2004, 07:51 AM	#1 (permalink)
Booboo Insane	Sad Times... (Not what you think) Kind of taken out of context, post I made in the "Just listen to yourselves..." thread. I thought about it and I think it would be beneficial for all of you to read, and maybe we can start talk of how can can remedy some of the problems we have now. Why do ideals like "Life, Liberty, and the persuit of Happiness" have to be in a document like the constitution for them to ring true for some people? They shouldn't even have to be written down. These are things that EVERY person in this country should hold true. And regardless of them being "law" or not, this country was founded on these Ideals. These ideals are what make this such a great place to live. Some of the opinions i've seen in this thread give me a feeling of deep sadness and loss of hope for our future. We are never going to go anywhere if shit like this is even an issue. In the whole scope of things, what does it matter if two people of the same sex get married or not? The Bible may disagree with same sex relationships, but guess what, a lot of people dont follow the Bible and you have NO RIGHT to force your religious views onto someone else. And I hope people realize this post is not about same sex marriages. Screw Presidents, Screw Government (meaning they should be irrelivant on these points, not that we shouldn't have them), this is OUR country. We are fucking it up and have no one to blame but ourselves. Its because of our division and lack of respect for eachother AND other countries that shit like 9/11 can happen. We as a people are so arrogant and full of ourselves that we completely forget there is an entire universe out there, and we are a speck of dust that means nothing. All we can do is sit back and enjoy the small amount of time we have here. People think about trivial issues way too much and I really hope we can all get past them at some point, or there is no hope for us. I hope you will reflect on life after reading this and REALLY think about whats important. I hope my point came through ok, thats all that matterd in this post. Oh, and the quote in my sig fits nicely with this post. __________________ "Your life is yours to live, go out and live it" - Richard Rahl Last edited by Booboo; 11-05-2004 at 11:18 AM..

11-05-2004, 08:10 AM	#3 (permalink)
rukkyg Loser Location: RPI, Troy, NY	Administrative edit: This inflammatory post is now gone. Last edited by ARTelevision; 11-05-2004 at 08:25 AM.. Reason: inflammatory

11-05-2004, 08:24 AM	#6 (permalink)
Booboo Insane	Err.. thanks Art. That post and attitude only make things worse. __________________ "Your life is yours to live, go out and live it" - Richard Rahl Last edited by Booboo; 11-05-2004 at 08:29 AM..

11-05-2004, 08:26 AM	#7 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Inflammatory posting is not at all respectful. This is not a place for anger management therapy. __________________ create evolution

11-05-2004, 08:31 AM	#9 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Your last post should be edited, too. You used the lord's name in vain! I am offended beyond belief! __________________ I love lamp.

11-05-2004, 08:14 AM	#4 (permalink)
KMA-628 ....is off his meds...you were warned. Location: The Wild Wild West	this ain't gonna go well.....

11-05-2004, 08:30 AM	#8 (permalink)
rukkyg Loser Location: RPI, Troy, NY	Oh my God....

11-05-2004, 08:32 AM	#10 (permalink)
Booboo Insane	Did you read my post?! this isn't about that at all. Its my honest and truthfull view on things. Well shit.. so much for that... thought this would spark better conversation from many of the intelligent people on this board __________________ "Your life is yours to live, go out and live it" - Richard Rahl Last edited by Booboo; 11-05-2004 at 08:34 AM..

11-05-2004, 08:38 AM	#11 (permalink)
aliali Insane Location: Missouri	O.K. here's why those things have to be in the constitution to have legal effect. The constitution is the rule book. The government is otherwise soverign and can do whatever the hell it wants. A whole bunch of people agreed to this over 200 years ago and the only way we can change it is by amendment or revolution. It's great to talk about what you or I may think about life, liberty, and other such stuff, but ultimately, it is the constitution that grants those rights that cannot be abridged by legislation or ballot initiative. I don't believe the right to gay marriage, and a lot of other things are in there. Others disagree. The problem I am seeing in these threads is the contempt for the majority and a misunderstanding of their power. There are a lot of things that the majority can do in this country. That's why elections are important. If the argument is why the majority would do such a thing as ban gay marriage, I really don't have an answer. The majority gets a lot of things right and wrong and there is always disagreement. However, I cannot understand how anyone could be surprised by the votes on Tues. You get one state supreme court from Mass. that makes a decision out of the blue that arguably impacts every state (full faith and credit) that is terribly bad law and horribly unpopular. If one wants to push for gay marriage, the exact wrong way to go about it is to have four very liberal judges change the rules and ignore the law rather than trying to change minds. Then you have a number of mayors in other states go around and blatantly ignore the law. This isn't a discussion, it is arrogance. And it doesn't win friends and influence people. Incidentally, I don't care one way or the other on gay marriage.

11-05-2004, 08:39 AM	#12 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Last chance for this thread. As you know, this is not going to be a time for rancor here. The thread's proceeding decently for now... __________________ create evolution

11-05-2004, 08:40 AM	#13 (permalink)
wnker85 Registered User	Things like this take time. Look at the last 5o years, Blacks fought to be thought of as equals, before that they were equal with dirt (sad to say). Look how long it took for the blacks to truly be equal, and they were not thought of as equal by our founding fathers. So, I think that all you need just to wait it out. Social progress takes time, and we are at the best we have ever been in the history of our species. Yes there is going to be hate and fear everywhere, but you can not make people accept everyone. The future is bright in civil rights, but it will take time. But not to sound too harsh, it doesn’t help your argument to through a fit because others don’t agree with you. One day all will be equal, and while you ask for respect you must give it first. For the record I would like to keep marriage a man and woman ideal, but I can not oppose it on others, I feel that it is sad that they are taking a intuition that has been apart of religion my religion and others and destroying what is was meant to be.

11-05-2004, 11:05 AM	#18 (permalink)
Booboo Insane	You dont beleive people in this country should value the ideal of "Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness"? if not, then why not? And while I hesitate to continue the gay marriage topic, as that was not what i intended this thread to be about, please tell me again, why 2 men or 2 women should not be allowed the same benefits of being married as a man and woman? You said in a previous thread that you do know gay people. Well, why not walk up to one and tell them face to face, that you are superior. And because they are different, they cannot persue marriage with another person of the same sex, regardless of their feelings towards that person. __________________ "Your life is yours to live, go out and live it" - Richard Rahl

11-05-2004, 11:14 AM	#19 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	You have yet to provide anything worthwhile in any post of mine you respond to, alan - just a bunch of examples that make no sense (ie "don't pass your athiest/agnostic views on to me"). You can't reverse it and turn it back on me as if I'm imposing some type of limitation on others - what limitation am I imposing? Oooh, wait, I'm limiting your ability to live a life free of gays? Oh, so sorry! I'm the one speaking up FOR removing a limitation in an attempt to allow everyone to be equal. Not only that, but you miss the entire point of what I'm trying to say time and time again. Please stop wasting my time. [edit] Your "coherent" reason for not allowing gays was: "business shouldn't support those who can't produce children." My point exactly - always trying to limit the privileges others get. Why? What sense does that make? You even said that a man/woman who can't have children shouldn't get benefits. You are the one going around imposing limitations (based on your beliefs) to others, not me (regardless of how hard you try to turn it around on me to prove some nonsensical point you try to make). You are the one saying, "You shouldn't be able to do this if this". I'm the one saying, "Who gives a shit? It doesn't bother you or affect you, so get over it and quit trying to fuck with the way others live their lives." __________________ I love lamp. Last edited by Stompy; 11-05-2004 at 11:26 AM..