And so it goes - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Mephisto2 · 11-04-2004, 08:48 PM

Well, looks like my optimism for a more moderate, concilatory and understand set of policies and actions was in vain.

Quote:

US recognises Macedonia, angering Greece
November 5, 2004 - 2:14PM

The United States has recognised the small Balkan nation of Macedonia under its constitutional name, the Republic of Macedonia, a decision that risks the wrath of NATO ally Greece.

US State Department spokesman Richard Boucher announced the move, saying it was "an appropriate and correct step at this juncture ... to support a path of openness, stability and democracy in Macedonia".

Since it broke away from Yugoslavia, Macedonia has been a staunch ally of the United States and has sent troops to US-led mission in Afghanistan and Iraq.

In an overture to the Greeks, Boucher also said the United States had gone "out of our way to make clear to the Greek government, to the Greek people that this is not a decision that is in any way directed at them or intended to offend them. It was what we thought was the right thing to continue a progress toward stability in the region".

In Athens, Greek Foreign Minister Petros Moliviatis said he summoned the US ambassador to Greece, Thomas Miller, to lodge a formal complaint.

"I also pointed out the multiple negative consequences of such a unilateral move," he said.

But Macedonian President Branko Crvenkovski hailed the US decision as the country's biggest diplomatic victory since it gained independence from Yugoslavia in 1991 and later joined the United Nations under the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYRM) to sidestep Greek objections.

Greece has claimed for decades that the use of the name Macedonia implied territorial claims toward Greece.

Greece, the European Union and international organisations use the FYRM acronym to refer to Macedonia.

The EU says it has no plans to change its policy on the name.

US Secretary of State Colin Powell called Moliviatis to explain the decision, after US officials in Athens told Greek foreign ministry officials of the decision earlier, Boucher said.

Powell told Moliviatis the decision was unrelated to President George W Bush's re-election on Tuesday, and was "not designed to be the first (foreign policy) decision after the US election in any way", the spokesman said.

Boucher also rejected a reporter's suggestion that the United States decided the benefits for Macedonia from the decision outweighed Greek hostility, saying, "It's not just a two-part equation".

© 2004 AP

REF: http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/US-...547369364.html

I think the message is clear. "Do what we want and you will be rewarded, regardless of the consequences."

I'm of no fixed or firm opinion on the issue of whatever the FYOM names itself, but I do believe a country should be careful not to anger its long-time allies in an attempt to offer short-term vacuous benefits to its much smaller, short-term allies. Maybe that's just me.

Mr Mephisto

smooth · 11-04-2004, 08:52 PM

sorry to disappoint you, mr. m.

we tried to tell ya.

Mephisto2 · 11-04-2004, 09:13 PM

haha...

Mea Culpa.

Mr Mephisto

djtestudo · 11-04-2004, 09:27 PM

So...is Greece upset that we're recognizing Macedonia, or that we're changing the name we call them?

Quote:

Greece has claimed for decades that the use of the name Macedonia implied territorial claims toward Greece.

irateplatypus · 11-04-2004, 09:33 PM

i'll be surprised if anyone on TFP is remotely qualified to comment on this diplomatic situation. i have a fairly firm grasp on history and i know i'm unfamiliar with the nuances this must entail.

smooth · 11-04-2004, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

i'll be surprised if anyone on TFP is remotely qualified to comment on this diplomatic situation. i have a fairly firm grasp on history and i know i'm unfamiliar with the nuances this must entail.

you're starting to sound like ustwo with that comment.

Mephisto2 · 11-04-2004, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

i'll be surprised if anyone on TFP is remotely qualified to comment on this diplomatic situation. i have a fairly firm grasp on history and i know i'm unfamiliar with the nuances this must entail.

Speak for yourself. If you have a firm grasp on European history, then you should be familiar with the issues here.

Greece historically claims the cultural heritage associated with the name Macedonia. This goes back to the times of Philip of Macedonia and his conquest of the Greek city-states. This was further developed by his son Alexander the Great (of upcoming Hollywood fame) who went on to conquer almost the entire "known world"; his troops making it all the way India before revolting and forcing him to take them home.

Historical Macedonia is situated mostly in Greece. Both Philip and Alexander became "Hellenized" and Greece considers them in the same way as their predecessors, such as Pericles, Themistocles, Aristotle etc as progenitors of Greek culture.

For more information on this, albeit from the Greek perspective, please see the website http://www.macedonia.info/

It should also be noted that the NATO, the EU, the UN, most (all?) other international organizations recognize the ex-Yugoslavian republic as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia or FYROM.

This act by the US Administration is simply some political jiggery pokery, throwing a minor ally some sop as a reward for their support in Iraq. Its result will be to alienate a far more powerful and lenghty ally in Greece.

I think both sides have merits to the rather predantic argument on the name (Greece probably more so), but it's the actions of the US here that are really the topic at hand.

Mr Mephisto

irateplatypus · 11-04-2004, 11:59 PM

thanks for the research mr. mephisto, though i am familiar with nearly all the information you provided.

i know why greece wouldn't want macedonia to be recognized as such... but i don't think i'm qualified to speculate on the timing or motivation of the decision. it seems possible that the U.S.'s decision is completely unrelated to iraq... that possibility doesn't seem to be considered. it wouldn't be the first time the US has departed from the EU or NATO on diplomacy. our relationship w/the greeks has been somewhat diplomatically cool for a long time... way before the iraq war. if the state department sees the new title to be more fitting, i'm doubting we would go out of our way to accomodate the greeks anyway.

i'm just saying this subject, for me, is just a bit too nebulous for such a clear conclusion to be drawn right away. given the historical nature of this problem and the very recent hysteria on this board... i'm inclined to take all swipes at US foreign policy with an additional dash of salt.

i'm unable to participate. but, by all means... discuss away. i'll be watching.

Seaver · 11-05-2004, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Historical Macedonia is situated mostly in Greece. Both Philip and Alexander became "Hellenized"

Any historian can tell you that this is bullshit.

They spoke greek, and they hired greek teachers, but they were as greek as Joan of Arc and Napoleon were French (for those of you who dont know... they weren't).

Mephisto2 · 11-07-2004, 03:27 PM

I have no idea what you mean Seaver.

Are you saying that Philip and/or Alexander did not consider themselves Greek? That they didn't become Hellenized?

Quote:

"For I (Alexander I) myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery." (Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])

Quote:

"Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy (Alexander I) of Macedonia has received you hospitably." (Herod. V, 20, 4 [Loeb])

Quote:

"Now, that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know." (Herod. V, 22, 1 [Loeb])

Quote:

The country by the sea which is now called Macedonia... Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his forefathers, who were originally Temenidae from Argos"
(Thucydides 99,3 (Loeb, C F Smith)

Quote:

"But Alexander (I), proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek;
so he contended in the furlong race and ran a dead heat for first place."
(Herod. V, 22, 2)

Quote:

"The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify."
` {John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the Great", 2nd ed.(1913)

Quote:

"Clearly, the language of the ancient Macedonians was Greek"
{Prof. John C. Roumans Professor Emeritus of Classics Wisconsin University}

Quote:

"There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."
(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)

Quote:

The speech of Alexander I, when he was admitted to the Olympic games "Men of Athens...
Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Hellas I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Hellene by descent, and I would not willingly see Hellas exchange freedom for slavery....
If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Hellenic cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians.
I am Alexander of Macedon."
(Herodotus, The Histories, 9.45)

Quote:

During the late fourth and the third centuries, in the wake of the conquests of Alexander the Great, Greek culture spread of an area immeasurably larger than the old "Greek world" as Herodotus or Thucydides or even Aristotle would have conceived it;
(Michael Crawford, David Whitehead - Archaic and Classical Greece, pg 16)

It could be argued that the Macedonians did not consider themselves "Greeks" until at least the times of Philip II and his son Alexander, but certainly thereafter they did. Furthermore, the fact that the Greeks themselves now consider them (as I said above) as progenitors of current Greek cultural identity is enough in itself. Additionally, when you consider that historical Macedonia is mostly in the national terroritory of the Greek Republic, you should be able to accept the basis for this assertion.

I'm not really sure I understand what you're calling "bullshit".

The fact that Alexander became Hellenized? Well, self-evidently he did.
The fact that historical Macendonia is in Greece? Well, self-evidently it is.

Mr Mephisto

Seaver · 11-07-2004, 08:23 PM

My favorite history professor put it this way. "Everything that has ever been written was written for a purpose."

Alexander needed to secure his base while he was at war in Persia. They had already revolted against him once, and with himself, and almost his entire army half the known world away he saw great danger. Of course he sold himself as Greek, as did his father to help quelle the pissed off Greeks. He used Greek soldiers in his army and used an ancient rivalry of the Greeks to conquer Persia (almost the entire known world at the time).

So to kill two birds with one stone they start spreading propoganda that they are infact Greek. Both keeps the home from revolting, and giving the Greeks reason to fight FOR Alexander rather than against him.

Irishsean · 11-07-2004, 08:28 PM

This is becoming a bad habit for the US lately, first Taiwan and now this?

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=73950

Ustwo · 11-07-2004, 09:15 PM

Currently it seems the Macedonians hate the Greeks and the Greeks hate them, just like the good old days of 336 B.C.

I'm sorry the Greeks had their feelings hurt, really.

Mephisto2 · 11-07-2004, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

My favorite history professor put it this way. "Everything that has ever been written was written for a purpose."

Alexander needed to secure his base while he was at war in Persia. They had already revolted against him once, and with himself, and almost his entire army half the known world away he saw great danger. Of course he sold himself as Greek, as did his father to help quelle the pissed off Greeks. He used Greek soldiers in his army and used an ancient rivalry of the Greeks to conquer Persia (almost the entire known world at the time).

So to kill two birds with one stone they start spreading propoganda that they are infact Greek. Both keeps the home from revolting, and giving the Greeks reason to fight FOR Alexander rather than against him.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the phrase "became Hellenized".

Of course they were not Greek initially; at least until the time of Philip and Alexander in anycase. But it is certainly the case that they adopted the Greek language, customs and considered themselves Greek later on.

The end result is the same.

If you are honestly stating that you don't believe Alexander the Great considered himself Greek, and that the Greek nation doesn't now consider him one of their cultural heros, then you are seriously misguided.

If you are stating, however, that historical authors wrote propaganda, then I've no argument against that. It's as true today as it was then. However, the facts speak for themselves.

I still don't understand what you are (were) saying is "bullshit".

Mr Mephisto

Seaver · 11-08-2004, 10:45 AM

No, Greece DOES consider Alexander one of their cultural heroes. Just like France considers Napoleon and Joan of Arc their great "French" heroes. It's easy to peg on a label of the greats so you can claim to be one of them.

Macedonians became Hellenized. Yes, they spoke the language (long before Philip II), and yes they hired Greek tutors. But they were never Greek. Greece hated being ruled by an outsider, which is why they revolted after Philip II's death. After the bloody smashing of that revolt Alexander started putting out that he was infact Greek. I'm sure he said that sort of stuff but no I do not believe he saw himself as Greek.

After Alexanders death the Generals devided up the areas for themselves, and the Greek states were included under the Generalship of Macedonia. So during this period they began to become interchangable. But one generation does not allow for such a mingling, especially considering those days people didnt leave more than about 10miles from home.

Lebell · 11-08-2004, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

i'll be surprised if anyone on TFP is remotely qualified to comment on this diplomatic situation. i have a fairly firm grasp on history and i know i'm unfamiliar with the nuances this must entail.

That's never stopped anyone around here before

Mephisto2 · 11-08-2004, 04:54 PM

Funny

Mr Mephisto

11-04-2004, 08:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	sorry to disappoint you, mr. m. we tried to tell ya. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

11-04-2004, 09:33 PM	#5 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	i'll be surprised if anyone on TFP is remotely qualified to comment on this diplomatic situation. i have a fairly firm grasp on history and i know i'm unfamiliar with the nuances this must entail. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

11-04-2004, 11:59 PM	#8 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	thanks for the research mr. mephisto, though i am familiar with nearly all the information you provided. i know why greece wouldn't want macedonia to be recognized as such... but i don't think i'm qualified to speculate on the timing or motivation of the decision. it seems possible that the U.S.'s decision is completely unrelated to iraq... that possibility doesn't seem to be considered. it wouldn't be the first time the US has departed from the EU or NATO on diplomacy. our relationship w/the greeks has been somewhat diplomatically cool for a long time... way before the iraq war. if the state department sees the new title to be more fitting, i'm doubting we would go out of our way to accomodate the greeks anyway. i'm just saying this subject, for me, is just a bit too nebulous for such a clear conclusion to be drawn right away. given the historical nature of this problem and the very recent hysteria on this board... i'm inclined to take all swipes at US foreign policy with an additional dash of salt. i'm unable to participate. but, by all means... discuss away. i'll be watching. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

11-07-2004, 08:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
Irishsean edited for content Location: Austin, TX	This is becoming a bad habit for the US lately, first Taiwan and now this? http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=73950 __________________ There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances. Leon Trotsky

11-07-2004, 09:15 PM	#13 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Currently it seems the Macedonians hate the Greeks and the Greeks hate them, just like the good old days of 336 B.C. I'm sorry the Greeks had their feelings hurt, really. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

11-04-2004, 09:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	haha... Mea Culpa. Mr Mephisto

11-07-2004, 08:23 PM	#11 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	My favorite history professor put it this way. "Everything that has ever been written was written for a purpose." Alexander needed to secure his base while he was at war in Persia. They had already revolted against him once, and with himself, and almost his entire army half the known world away he saw great danger. Of course he sold himself as Greek, as did his father to help quelle the pissed off Greeks. He used Greek soldiers in his army and used an ancient rivalry of the Greeks to conquer Persia (almost the entire known world at the time). So to kill two birds with one stone they start spreading propoganda that they are infact Greek. Both keeps the home from revolting, and giving the Greeks reason to fight FOR Alexander rather than against him.

11-08-2004, 10:45 AM	#15 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	No, Greece DOES consider Alexander one of their cultural heroes. Just like France considers Napoleon and Joan of Arc their great "French" heroes. It's easy to peg on a label of the greats so you can claim to be one of them. Macedonians became Hellenized. Yes, they spoke the language (long before Philip II), and yes they hired Greek tutors. But they were never Greek. Greece hated being ruled by an outsider, which is why they revolted after Philip II's death. After the bloody smashing of that revolt Alexander started putting out that he was infact Greek. I'm sure he said that sort of stuff but no I do not believe he saw himself as Greek. After Alexanders death the Generals devided up the areas for themselves, and the Greek states were included under the Generalship of Macedonia. So during this period they began to become interchangable. But one generation does not allow for such a mingling, especially considering those days people didnt leave more than about 10miles from home.

11-08-2004, 04:54 PM	#17 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Funny Mr Mephisto