I was hoping for a gracious win... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Redlemon · 11-03-2004, 11:42 AM

...but this gloating is not a good start.
link

Quote:

Republican Congress Set to Push Bush Agenda

By Thomas Ferraro

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Republicans, having expanded their control of Congress, were positioned on Wednesday to provide greater help to President Bush to push a stepped-up conservative agenda in his second term.

The Republican president has sought to extend tax cuts, promote pro-business policies and appoint anti-abortion judges and he may make another attempt to secure a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriages.

"With a bigger majority, we can do even more exciting things," House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, a Texas Republican, told a local television station in his state.

Television network projections showed Republicans would hold at least 54 of the 100 Senate seats, three more than they now have, and a slim majority of the 435-member House in the new 109th Congress, set to convene on Jan. 3.

In Tuesday's election, Democrat Tom Daschle, deemed by Republicans as "the chief obstructionist" to Bush's agenda, became the first Senate leader in a half century to be voted out of office.

Daschle lost to former Republican U.S. Rep. John Thune, who had come within 524 votes in 2002 of unseating the other senator in the Republican-leaning state, Democrat Tim Johnson.

"One of the themes of my campaign ... was that we need to get the Senate functioning and working again." Thune told "Fox TV," adding, "Right now, there is too much partisanship."

Yet there is certain to be plenty of more partisanship on Capitol Hill next year given the harsh tone of the congressional and presidential races.

Early on Wednesday, Democrat Betty Castor conceded defeat to Republican Mel Martinez in the Senate race in Florida, and Republican Sen. Lisa Murkowski appeared likely to beat former Democratic Gov. Tony Knowles in Alaska.

"MONUMENTAL" VICTORY

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said it looked likely Republicans would have a total of 55 Senate seats, and add at least three seats in the House, which would raise their total there to 230.

"It really is monumental. Nobody expected that. It is huge," Frist told CNN, describing the election results as "a huge endorsement of the president of the United States."

However, Republicans will not have the 60 senators that are needed to end Democratic procedural hurdles against what critics have called "extreme" initiatives or nominees.

All the House seats were up for re-election along with 34 Senate seats. But only nine of the Senate races -- in South Dakota, South Carolina, Oklahoma, Alaska, Colorado, Florida, Louisiana, North Carolina, and Kentucky -- and about 30 of the House races were seen as competitive.

Republicans picked up previously Democratic-held Senate seats in South Dakota, South Carolina, North Carolina and Louisiana and Florida, swapped a pair of other Senate seats with Democrats in Illinois and Georgia and held hotly contested Republican Senate seats in Oklahoma and Kentucky. Democrats won a previously Republican-held Senate seat in Colorado.

In many cases, Republicans enjoyed the advantages of incumbency in fund-raising and name recognition. They also got a break in the Senate races since many of the close contests were in largely conservative states where Bush ran well.

House Republicans benefited from a congressional redistricting plan that they pushed through Texas. It helped them protect their majority and defeat a few veteran House Democrats, including Martin Frost and Charles Stenholm.

I'm a big fan of a divided government. I prefer that legislation that is passed goes through a process of compromise between liberal and conservative sides. Instead, it looks like the compromise will be between conservative and more conservative. And I really dislike the "chief obstructionist" label.

Will the next four years be a conservative revolution? Is there anything left standing in its way?

aliali · 11-03-2004, 12:04 PM

I don't see much gloating there. The rep.s are in control and the election returns are historic. Whether or not the obstrucionist label is correct, the only, and I mean only, way to stop the pres. from doing whatever the hell he wants is to have someone in the democratic senate leadership block (obstruct) through procedure and filibuster. It will have to be somebody new this time around.

Seems like the house rep.s did a lot more gloating when they took over in 94.

Redlemon · 11-03-2004, 12:18 PM

Well, perhaps I'm reading it as a liberal, but I see the undertext to the comments as "Woohoo! Let's pass everything we want, the Democrats won't be able to stand in our way!"

Perhaps I'm just tired (my 2 year old just decided he hates his bed) and I'm depressed about the politics of the next two/four years.

daswig · 11-03-2004, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redlemon

...but this gloating is not a good start.

Look at what's happening at Democraticunderground.com

Why should the Republicans play nice when the Democrats aren't?

seretogis · 11-03-2004, 01:55 PM

How DARE they enjoy their victory over the obviously intellectually-superior Democrats?!

tecoyah · 11-03-2004, 01:56 PM

Because somebody should.......somebody needs to take the High Ground in this, or we are in for more of the same.

seretogis · 11-03-2004, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

Because somebody should.......somebody needs to take the High Ground in this, or we are in for more of the same.

Despite all the negative media coverage of Bush, despite all the slams and very publicized conspiracy theories of Bush and Cheney, despite ALL of that, Bush won. Bush won with 51% of the vote, and Republicans increased their majoirty. If this isn't a massive show of support for the President -- for the Republican platform in general -- I don't know what is.

Lasereth · 11-03-2004, 02:08 PM

I agree with Seretogis 100%. All of the Democrats are saying "OH MY GOD LOOK HOW STUPID AMERICA IS!!!" That's basically saying that anyone but a Democrat is stupid. Bush won because there are more Republicans than Democrats. It's not sheer stupidity or ignorance that won this election...it's a simple fact that there are more Republicans than Democrats in the US and that the Republicans agreed with Bush.

I agree with Daswig too. On that site he mentioned there are <I>already plans of assassinating President Bush, impeaching him, moving to Canada, and even <B>a want of seperating the US into two countries with Dems on one side and Repubs on the other</B></I>. This is FUCKING RIDICULOUS! Democrats lost...Republicans won. It's not like a huge monumental disaster went on here. The Dems won with Clinton twice and now the Repubs won with Bush twice. Those crazed Democrats need to understand that if things don't go their way it's not the end of the world. The Democratic way of life isn't agreed upon by all, and folks who aren't Democrat aren't the fucking idiots of the world like most Democrats think. Jesus. There's simply two political parties in the US and one side just won over the other.

By the way, I'm about 90% Democratic.

-Lasereth

Mephisto2 · 11-03-2004, 03:03 PM

I wouldn't say massive support. Around 52% actually. Not massive in anyone's books.

But he has been returned with an increased majority. Fair is fair. The American people, a small majority of them, prefer him in these trying times. There are many possible reasons.

We all know the incumbent is better off during times of war.
Bush is seen as strong willed.
Kerry is seen, by many, as wishy washy.
The economy is not doing as bad as some say.
And maybe, Mr Everyday America just prefers Bush over Kerry.

Either way, democracy has spoken and it's now a time for you all to get behind your President.

Democrats should stop whinning and get on with their jobs.
Republicans should stop pontificating and get on with their jobs.

Mr Mephisto

adam · 11-03-2004, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seretogis

Bush won with 51% of the vote, and Republicans increased their majoirty. If this isn't a massive show of support for the President -- for the Republican platform in general -- I don't know what is.

Maybe something a bit stronger than 51% of the vote? I mean, massive support should be a bit more massive, you know?

Not that I really mind if y'all gloat... the more excess, the better, it will help us in the long run.

filtherton · 11-03-2004, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam

Maybe something a bit stronger than 51% of the vote? I mean, massive support should be a bit more massive, you know?

Not that I really mind if y'all gloat... the more excess, the better, it will help us in the long run.

If 51% is massive support, 49% is very nearly massive dissaproval.

alansmithee · 11-03-2004, 04:04 PM

It IS massive. The Democratic Messiah, Bill Clinton, never got that high. And when you think how much hatred was supposedly felt towards Bush, ANY majority is fairly impressive. It means that after seeing his 4 years in office, more people prefered him than they did in 2000.

cthulu23 · 11-03-2004, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seretogis

How DARE they enjoy their victory over the obviously intellectually-superior Democrats?!

Yeah, that's exactly what he's saying. Thanks for that.

cthulu23 · 11-03-2004, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daswig

Look at what's happening at Democraticunderground.com

Why should the Republicans play nice when the Democrats aren't?

So the words of a single website somehow reflect those of the entire party? Do you want me to pull up some evil Republican sites? Jesus, I had hoped that the Bush victory would chill things out, but I guess that true believers never sleep. It must be so comforting to push for a team that never makes mistakes and whose enemy is the most vile of evil doers. Can we get some perspective...please?

Dostoevsky · 11-03-2004, 04:21 PM

I like some of the points on Bush's agenda and I think it's great that America has voted changes into congress that will allow him to push some reforms through. I hope he gets something done with privatizing social security, I'm really excited about that. It would be nice if he can make the tax cuts permanent too. The Assault Weapons Ban of '94 is officially dead now also, I was afraid Kerry would breath some life into that.

I can sympathize for all of the Democrats here that lost a passionate election. I imagine I would feel the same way you all feel right now if I had 4 years of Kerry to look forward to.

Scipio · 11-03-2004, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

It IS massive. The Democratic Messiah, Bill Clinton, never got that high. And when you think how much hatred was supposedly felt towards Bush, ANY majority is fairly impressive. It means that after seeing his 4 years in office, more people prefered him than they did in 2000.

Oh, and Bush's win was WAY more decisive than Clinton's was. Granted, it was a solid win, but you can't scare people into voting for you and then call it a mandate.

As for the article, I don't care if they brag a bit. They won the damn thing, and they've earned it. If I get to make a few off-hand comments about it, they get to party.

I find this much more troubling:

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0411031109.asp

Mephisto2 · 11-03-2004, 05:09 PM

Like it or not, this is a manifestation of what is happening around the world.

America is moving towards Christian fundamentalism. Just like Israel is moving towards Jewish fundamentalism and the Middle East Islamic fundamentalism.

It seems that in times of unrest and uncertainty, which both Israel and the Middle East have been experiencing for some time and America only recently, people's fears, uncertainty and doubt drive them more towards their faith. This is what is happening in America. Questions of morality and beliefs have become politically manifest. For example, there truly is no "real" logical or technical reason to be opposed to gay marriage, stem cell research other than that they are anathema to your faith.

Some people may decry this opinion. "What?!" they may shout, "America fundamentalist?!!". But I honestly believe this is what is happening.

Now, depending upon your position this may not matter at all. So what if you believe in a more rigid or fundamental interpretation of your faith? And that's entirely fine. It's patently what is happening. Others, though, like myself would and will yearn for a dispassionate examination of these "moral questions". It's a very difficult topic.

If you believe, as you are entitled to, that it is wrong to do or support something then it is only expected that you should vote for someone whose views you share.

I only hope that in the future, America comes together rather than continues to drift apart. All this discussion about massive endorsements and name calling is not helping your country. Remember that your real enemies, if you will, lie not only overseas and in the guise of terrorism, but also within... a slow cancerous degeneration of what makes your country great will bring about its fall just as likely as any terrorist attack.

Bush has won. Kerry has lost. Now it's time to heal.

Mr Mephisto

Ilow · 11-03-2004, 05:36 PM

On the first matter, because the Republicans seek to propogate their agenda, and not the greater good they see people who advocate differing points of view as obstacles rather than a means to gain a greater understanding. It is therefore easy to understand why Tom Daschle (who in some ways is a rather moderate Democrat, owing to the fact that he had to appeal to a Republican state) would be considered an "obstruction."

Secondly, 51% of anything is not massive, or overwhelming, or a mandate, it's just the slimist of margins of majority.

Finally, Mr.Mephisto is quite correct in noting that we have become a fundamental country. The Republicans have done an exemplary job of convincing the citizens to vote largely against their financial interests based almost exclusively on their faith.

daswig · 11-03-2004, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilow

Secondly, 51% of anything is not massive, or overwhelming, or a mandate, it's just the slimist of margins of majority.

I'm just remembering the Clintonites ranting about their "mandate" of 42% in 1992....compared to that, a 51% Bush "non-mandate" rules.

ubertuber · 11-03-2004, 05:46 PM

Mr. Mephisto, I want to write a single reply to every post you've written in the last 24 hours:

I am impressed by your even temper, calm words, and well-considered approach to our future. Thank you. If you ever get to NY, I'll gladly buy you a beer.

Mephisto2 · 11-03-2004, 06:51 PM

Thank you for the kind words.

Mr Mephisto

nofnway · 11-03-2004, 08:59 PM

I realize quoting yourself is probably bad form but I had this thought while browsing another post and it is really more germain to this topic.

"Has anyone in the democratic party considered that with the constant parade of candidates, spokespersons and strategists, that are the most left of all Americans, are
leaving more and more americans behind.
It takes a certain kind of myopia at best, and arrogance at worst ,that when election after election seats in congress, the senate and even the presidency are going to the Republicans to think that the Republicans are the problem. Anyone who supports a republican at all is some sort of extremist? 51-48 alone does not a mandate make. Gaining seats in congress and the senate over the last 20 years plus 51-48 and 3.5 mil gap in the popular vote is certainly worth noticing. Maybe the dems should re-examine what is extreme."

nofnway · 11-03-2004, 09:02 PM

viva bad form

11-03-2004, 01:55 PM	#5 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	How DARE they enjoy their victory over the obviously intellectually-superior Democrats?! __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

11-03-2004, 01:56 PM	#6 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Because somebody should.......somebody needs to take the High Ground in this, or we are in for more of the same. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

11-03-2004, 02:08 PM	#8 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	I agree with Seretogis 100%. All of the Democrats are saying "OH MY GOD LOOK HOW STUPID AMERICA IS!!!" That's basically saying that anyone but a Democrat is stupid. Bush won because there are more Republicans than Democrats. It's not sheer stupidity or ignorance that won this election...it's a simple fact that there are more Republicans than Democrats in the US and that the Republicans agreed with Bush. I agree with Daswig too. On that site he mentioned there are <I>already plans of assassinating President Bush, impeaching him, moving to Canada, and even <B>a want of seperating the US into two countries with Dems on one side and Repubs on the other</B></I>. This is FUCKING RIDICULOUS! Democrats lost...Republicans won. It's not like a huge monumental disaster went on here. The Dems won with Clinton twice and now the Repubs won with Bush twice. Those crazed Democrats need to understand that if things don't go their way it's not the end of the world. The Democratic way of life isn't agreed upon by all, and folks who aren't Democrat aren't the fucking idiots of the world like most Democrats think. Jesus. There's simply two political parties in the US and one side just won over the other. By the way, I'm about 90% Democratic. -Lasereth __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

11-03-2004, 05:36 PM	#18 (permalink)
Ilow Junkie Location: Pats country	On the first matter, because the Republicans seek to propogate their agenda, and not the greater good they see people who advocate differing points of view as obstacles rather than a means to gain a greater understanding. It is therefore easy to understand why Tom Daschle (who in some ways is a rather moderate Democrat, owing to the fact that he had to appeal to a Republican state) would be considered an "obstruction." Secondly, 51% of anything is not massive, or overwhelming, or a mandate, it's just the slimist of margins of majority. Finally, Mr.Mephisto is quite correct in noting that we have become a fundamental country. The Republicans have done an exemplary job of convincing the citizens to vote largely against their financial interests based almost exclusively on their faith. __________________ "Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about" --Sam Harris

11-03-2004, 05:46 PM	#20 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Mr. Mephisto, I want to write a single reply to every post you've written in the last 24 hours: I am impressed by your even temper, calm words, and well-considered approach to our future. Thank you. If you ever get to NY, I'll gladly buy you a beer. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

11-03-2004, 12:04 PM	#2 (permalink)
aliali Insane Location: Missouri	I don't see much gloating there. The rep.s are in control and the election returns are historic. Whether or not the obstrucionist label is correct, the only, and I mean only, way to stop the pres. from doing whatever the hell he wants is to have someone in the democratic senate leadership block (obstruct) through procedure and filibuster. It will have to be somebody new this time around. Seems like the house rep.s did a lot more gloating when they took over in 94.

11-03-2004, 12:18 PM	#3 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	Well, perhaps I'm reading it as a liberal, but I see the undertext to the comments as "Woohoo! Let's pass everything we want, the Democrats won't be able to stand in our way!" Perhaps I'm just tired (my 2 year old just decided he hates his bed) and I'm depressed about the politics of the next two/four years.

11-03-2004, 03:03 PM	#9 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	I wouldn't say massive support. Around 52% actually. Not massive in anyone's books. But he has been returned with an increased majority. Fair is fair. The American people, a small majority of them, prefer him in these trying times. There are many possible reasons. We all know the incumbent is better off during times of war. Bush is seen as strong willed. Kerry is seen, by many, as wishy washy. The economy is not doing as bad as some say. And maybe, Mr Everyday America just prefers Bush over Kerry. Either way, democracy has spoken and it's now a time for you all to get behind your President. Democrats should stop whinning and get on with their jobs. Republicans should stop pontificating and get on with their jobs. Mr Mephisto

11-03-2004, 04:04 PM	#12 (permalink)
alansmithee Junkie	It IS massive. The Democratic Messiah, Bill Clinton, never got that high. And when you think how much hatred was supposedly felt towards Bush, ANY majority is fairly impressive. It means that after seeing his 4 years in office, more people prefered him than they did in 2000.

11-03-2004, 04:21 PM	#15 (permalink)
Dostoevsky Psycho Location: Macon, GA	I like some of the points on Bush's agenda and I think it's great that America has voted changes into congress that will allow him to push some reforms through. I hope he gets something done with privatizing social security, I'm really excited about that. It would be nice if he can make the tax cuts permanent too. The Assault Weapons Ban of '94 is officially dead now also, I was afraid Kerry would breath some life into that. I can sympathize for all of the Democrats here that lost a passionate election. I imagine I would feel the same way you all feel right now if I had 4 years of Kerry to look forward to.

11-03-2004, 05:09 PM	#17 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Like it or not, this is a manifestation of what is happening around the world. America is moving towards Christian fundamentalism. Just like Israel is moving towards Jewish fundamentalism and the Middle East Islamic fundamentalism. It seems that in times of unrest and uncertainty, which both Israel and the Middle East have been experiencing for some time and America only recently, people's fears, uncertainty and doubt drive them more towards their faith. This is what is happening in America. Questions of morality and beliefs have become politically manifest. For example, there truly is no "real" logical or technical reason to be opposed to gay marriage, stem cell research other than that they are anathema to your faith. Some people may decry this opinion. "What?!" they may shout, "America fundamentalist?!!". But I honestly believe this is what is happening. Now, depending upon your position this may not matter at all. So what if you believe in a more rigid or fundamental interpretation of your faith? And that's entirely fine. It's patently what is happening. Others, though, like myself would and will yearn for a dispassionate examination of these "moral questions". It's a very difficult topic. If you believe, as you are entitled to, that it is wrong to do or support something then it is only expected that you should vote for someone whose views you share. I only hope that in the future, America comes together rather than continues to drift apart. All this discussion about massive endorsements and name calling is not helping your country. Remember that your real enemies, if you will, lie not only overseas and in the guise of terrorism, but also within... a slow cancerous degeneration of what makes your country great will bring about its fall just as likely as any terrorist attack. Bush has won. Kerry has lost. Now it's time to heal. Mr Mephisto

11-03-2004, 06:51 PM	#21 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Thank you for the kind words. Mr Mephisto

11-03-2004, 08:59 PM	#22 (permalink)
nofnway Insane Location: under the freeway bridge	I realize quoting yourself is probably bad form but I had this thought while browsing another post and it is really more germain to this topic. "Has anyone in the democratic party considered that with the constant parade of candidates, spokespersons and strategists, that are the most left of all Americans, are leaving more and more americans behind. It takes a certain kind of myopia at best, and arrogance at worst ,that when election after election seats in congress, the senate and even the presidency are going to the Republicans to think that the Republicans are the problem. Anyone who supports a republican at all is some sort of extremist? 51-48 alone does not a mandate make. Gaining seats in congress and the senate over the last 20 years plus 51-48 and 3.5 mil gap in the popular vote is certainly worth noticing. Maybe the dems should re-examine what is extreme." __________________ "Iron rusts with disuse, stagnant water loses its purity and in cold water freezes. Even so does inaction sap the vigor of the mind" Leonardo Da Vinci

11-03-2004, 09:02 PM	#23 (permalink)
nofnway Insane Location: under the freeway bridge	viva bad form __________________ "Iron rusts with disuse, stagnant water loses its purity and in cold water freezes. Even so does inaction sap the vigor of the mind" Leonardo Da Vinci