How will you feel if Kerry is elected? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

connyosis · 11-01-2004, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rab1234

Angry and Scared knowing that another terrorist attack is coming and 1) Kerry would have cut the defense budget to next to nothing and 2) Wondering if France and Germany will give the go-ahead for America to defend itself.

Trolling is boring...

ShaniFaye · 11-01-2004, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by connyosis

The real question is which candidate can do a better job securing the country.

EXACLTY!!!

Stompy · 11-01-2004, 11:40 AM

Just goes to show how misinformed people are

Yeah, because Kerry flat out said, "When we get attacked, I'm going to ask permission to defend our country."

See, he was talking about attacking Iraq, not Afghanistan. Remember, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11!

People have selective memory. Then they mix that selective memory with already existing misinformation to produce nonsense. It's like these people are robots... uttering the SAME overused cliche remarks such as "flip flop" or "hey, we now have to ask other countries permission to wipe our ass!" This is the very reason why I'm no longer a Bush supporter.

I can't believe people actually believe this stuff.

Paq · 11-01-2004, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rab1234

Angry and Scared knowing that another terrorist attack is coming and 1) Kerry would have cut the defense budget to next to nothing and 2) Wondering if France and Germany will give the go-ahead for America to defend itself.

see, i just do not get how this even comes about....at no point did kerry say he would cede our security to any country. he did say he would have a global test, etc, which he explained to be that he would try harder than bush to get the rest of the world onboard before just unilaterally attacking someone. He also said, explicitly, that he would not give up america's security to any other country. No president would or could, as it's simply not gonna happen.

I just don't get it....

trikdaddydru · 11-01-2004, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quicksteal

Sad b/c I'll have to find a new country to live in, and Europe and Canada won't work either. Maybe Australia--I could get used to saying "mate" all the time.

Ha! I definitely agree. I'd like to find out more about their politics. They can't be as locked down as ours.

aliali · 11-01-2004, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by connyosis

And Bush is a poor working class guy? I think both candidates are pretty wealthy, so if thats you big concern neither is a good choice. Also didn't Bush approve a tax cut for some of the wealthiest people in the US? Seems like he doesn't want to pay much in taxes either

No, Bush is not a working class guy. Both are wealthy. I didn't suggest I was voting for Bush--the question was how do you feel about Kerry winning.

Bush didn't just approve of a tax cut. He is completely responsible for the tax cut, which reduced taxes for everyone that pays them. The progressivity of the fed. tax system was mostly unchanged by the cuts. No one likes to pay taxes, but Kerry's wealth comes from having it already rather than making it. Therefore he disproportionaly lives a high lifestyle that has income as a product of capital gains, which are taxed at a much lower level. If Kerry and I make the same amount next year, I'll pay twice the taxes. Where Bush has and wants to lower taxes on income, Kerry has always opposed reductions in marginal tax rates. In fact, he wants to raise them.

Even though Bush and Kerry are both rich, I just think Kerry is a different type of rich. And I don't like the idea of giving him all of the perks that come with the White House. It's the truth and W being rich doesn't help me with that. Sorry.

mused76 · 11-01-2004, 12:15 PM

i'd feel angry because i am tired of his supporters who are compliant with his ill advised answers. he tells them whatever they want to hear and i can't wait until this stuff is over tomorrow. amen.

Stompy · 11-01-2004, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mused76

i'd feel angry because i am tired of his supporters who are compliant with his ill advised answers. he tells them whatever they want to hear and i can't wait until this stuff is over tomorrow. amen.

This is the "How will you feel if KERRY is elected", the Bush thread is here: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=74434

daswig · 11-01-2004, 12:35 PM

dang, where's the "disgusted" category?

Rdr4evr · 11-01-2004, 02:07 PM

It never ceases to amaze me that Bush supporters think that Bush will keep the country more safe from terrorism. They still don't realize that the largest terrorist attack in the countries history happened under his watch (or lack thereof).

connyosis · 11-01-2004, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliali

No, Bush is not a working class guy. Both are wealthy. I didn't suggest I was voting for Bush--the question was how do you feel about Kerry winning.

Bush didn't just approve of a tax cut. He is completely responsible for the tax cut, which reduced taxes for everyone that pays them. The progressivity of the fed. tax system was mostly unchanged by the cuts. No one likes to pay taxes, but Kerry's wealth comes from having it already rather than making it. Therefore he disproportionaly lives a high lifestyle that has income as a product of capital gains, which are taxed at a much lower level. If Kerry and I make the same amount next year, I'll pay twice the taxes. Where Bush has and wants to lower taxes on income, Kerry has always opposed reductions in marginal tax rates. In fact, he wants to raise them.

Even though Bush and Kerry are both rich, I just think Kerry is a different type of rich. And I don't like the idea of giving him all of the perks that come with the White House. It's the truth and W being rich doesn't help me with that. Sorry.

Uhm...yeah...Bush's wealth doesn't come from making it either, it comes from his dad if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, I wont get into a tax discussion since I don't want to hijack this thread. Lets meet here again four years from now and talk again, ok? :-)

james t kirk · 11-01-2004, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I'd feel sorry for you, Clinton kept me out of it when I was of military age.

Me personally I'd be disapointed, I know people are short sighted as a whole, but I hate having it demonstrated.

There is lots of room for you now sport.

I hear they are having a hard time convincing working class kids to sign up and go and get shot at in Iraq for W's folley.

matteo101 · 11-01-2004, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

What I'd really like someone to explain to me is....what makes a kerry supporter think (and yes I've seen/heard this OVER AND OVER again) that our country is going to be safe from terror attacks just because he is president?

With a little simple research you could have been led to John Kerry's website, and clicked on National Security.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/nati...terrorism.html

Quote:

As president, he will: (1) destroy terrorist networks – by transforming our military and reforming our intelligence services – and prevent them from again taking root in Afghanistan; (2) prevent nuclear terrorism; (3) cut-off sources of terrorist financing; (4) protect the homeland by securing America’s ports, borders, and critical infrastructure, enhancing chemical, nuclear, aviation and rail security, defending against bio-terrorism, and providing our first responders the resources they need; (5) use all elements of our national power to deny new terrorist recruits and havens and prevent terrorists from poisoning minds around the world; (6) support democracies in the Arab and Muslim world; and (7) restore alliances to combat terrorist networks across the globe.

I. DESTROY TERRORIST NETWORKS. John Kerry has a stronger, smarter strategy for destroying the terrorists before they can attack us. He will:

Direct Effective Use of Military Force to Destroy Terrorist Networks. Kerry will use military force to kill terrorists and destroy their networks. He will never cede our national security to any other nation or institution.

Transform the Military to Meet Modern Threats. Kerry will ensure that our military is fully prepared to meet the new security challenges by: (1) expanding our active duty forces by 40,000 soldiers so that we have enough troops to take the fight to the terrorists wherever they are; (2) doubling America’s Special Forces capability and increasing other specialized personnel who are trained and equipped to destroy terrorists; (3) completing the process of technological transformation; (4) redirecting the National Guard to assume homeland security as an additional mission; and (5) keeping faith with our veterans and military families.

Reform our Intelligence Services to Prevent Terrorist Attacks. Kerry will act immediately on the 9-11 Commission recommendations and reform our intelligence services to better prevent terrorist attacks, including: (1) creating a National Intelligence Director with real control over personnel and budgets throughout the intelligence community; (2) reorganizing the intelligence community around issue-oriented task forces to maximize coordination and efficiency in addressing the greatest threats we face; (3) strengthening human intelligence by doubling the CIA’s overseas clandestine personnel; and (4) ensuring an independent domestic intelligence capability within the FBI.

Deny Sanctuary in Afghanistan. Afghanistan has become a forgotten front in the war on terror. Al Qaeda is regrouping and strengthening. Twice as many American soldiers have died in combat so far this year than in all of last year. John Kerry will ensure that America finishes the job we started in Afghanistan, and that the country receives the security, political, and economic resources it needs. He will:

Expand NATO Beyond Kabul. As president, Kerry will exercise real leadership by getting NATO to accelerate the expansion of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) outside Kabul and commit to sustaining an expansion of its troops beyond the election period.
Stop the Drug Trade. Poppy production has exploded over the past three years, fueling continued instability. Afghanistan now accounts for 75% of global opium production. To stop the booming drug trade, Kerry will, among other things, double counter-narcotics assistance and expedite the growth of an Afghan counter-narcotics force whose specific mandate is to track down and destroy Afghanistan’s druglords as well as their drug infrastructure and drug processing facilities.
Expedite the Warlord Disarmament and Reintegration Program. The presence of large warlord militias – with as many as 60,000 fighters across the country – is the principle cause of insecurity and a challenge to the authority of the Karzai government. Kerry will provide increased support – including back-up military support where necessary – to crucial disarmament and demobilization efforts.
Improve Security Training. Only by strengthening Afghan security capabilities can Afghanistan be truly safe and secure. Kerry will strengthen critical security training initiatives, including bolstering support to the Afghan National Army and national police training programs.
II. PREVENT NUCLEAR TERRORISM. John Kerry believes that preventing nuclear terrorism must be our primary national security priority. He will:

Secure and Reduce Nuclear Stockpiles. Kerry’s plan will safeguard existing stockpiles of nuclear weapons and materials in the former Soviet Union within four years, create an international partnership to establish and enforce an international standard for the safe custody of nuclear weapons and materials, safeguard nuclear materials at research reactors around the world, and reduce existing stockpiles of nuclear weapons and materials.
Institute a Verifiable Global Ban on the Production of New Bomb Making Materials. A Kerry administration will end production of fissile materials for use in nuclear weapons through a Fissile Material Cut-Off Treaty with real verification mechanisms.
Lead an International Effort to End Nuclear Weapons Programs in North Korea and Iran.
North Korea: While the administration has made no meaningful progress in negotiations over the past 18 months, North Korea has reportedly quadrupled its nuclear weapons capability. Kerry will work with our allies to reduce tensions and get the six-party talks with North Korea back on track. He will also be prepared to talk directly with the North Koreans because we should speak for ourselves when our security is at stake. And he will ensure that any final agreement leads to the verifiable and irreversible elimination of North Korea's nuclear weapons program and addresses the full range of issues of concern to us and our allies.

Iran: For far too long, the Bush Administration has sat on the sidelines while Iran has advanced its nuclear program. America needs to lead because a nuclear armed Iran is unacceptable. John Kerry will make clear to Iran that America will lead an international effort to push for tough measures, including sanctions, if Iran does not comply with the IAEA resolution by permanently suspending its uranium enrichment program and provide verifiable assurances that it is not trying to develop nuclear weapons.

Strengthen the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT). As president, Kerry will work to close the loophole in the NPT that allows countries to develop nuclear weapons capabilities under the guise of a civilian nuclear power program, and make adoption of the additional inspection protocol mandatory.
III. CUT-OFF TERRORIST FINANCING. From his experience leading the Senate’s BCCI investigation, John Kerry understands the importance of stopping the flow of illicit funds to terrorists. He will: (1) impose financial sanctions against any bank that fails to cooperate in the effort to control money laundering, and, if needed, against nations; (2) work with our allies and the World Bank and international financial institutions to shut down the financial pipeline to terrorists; (3) speak openly and plainly about Saudi shortcomings, and get tough with them when it comes to allowing financing of terrorism and spreading an anti-American ideology – there will be no sacred cows when it comes to protecting America; and (4) pursue a plan to make America independent of Mideast oil so that we can rely on our own innovation and ingenuity.

IV. PROTECT THE HOMELAND. Americans deserve a stronger homeland security strategy that protects us from the threats we face. Kerry’s comprehensive strategy addresses the critical security gaps that continue to remain after 4 years of ineffective leadership by George W. Bush.

Secure America’s Ports and Borders. Currently, the United States inspects only about 5% of the containers coming into our country. John Kerry supports a six-fold increase in critical initiatives to inspect cargo overseas and to subject companies that do not meet minimum security standards themselves to tougher inspection. Currently, these programs are woefully under-funded and do not impose adequate barriers to terrorists seeking to attack America. He will work with our allies in Canada and Mexico as well as our other trade partners to coordinate our personnel and technology to create the Smart Borders necessary to keep commerce flowing while keeping terrorists out. And a Kerry administration will ensure that we create a single, effective, and integrated terrorist watch list that is accessible to everyone who needs it, including agents along our borders and the cops on our streets.
Enhance Aviation. Kerry will implement explosives screening for airplane passengers and obtain the equipment needed to screen air cargo just as we screen passenger baggage. To achieve these goals, he will triple the current level of investment in the purchase and installation of explosive detection screening equipment. He will also ensure that our airports have the trained staff necessary to provide the strong and smarter security America deserves.
Expand Rail and Subway Security. As president, John Kerry will make new investments of more than $2 billion to protect our mass transit systems and improve the security of our rail systems, including the purchase of more surveillance equipment and better fencing for high-risk areas.
Secure America’s Chemical Plants and Other Critical Infrastructure. John Kerry will require chemical plants to develop and implement security plans, including measures to use less dangerous chemicals where that is feasible. Kerry will ensure security at our nuclear plants, including adequate fencing and surveillance, as well as armed, trained, and competent security forces. Because 85% of our critical infrastructure is owned by the private sector, Kerry will lead the effort to establish the public-private partnerships necessary to devise security precautions that make sense.
Defend against Bio-terrorism. Kerry will: (1) make the investments America’s public health system needs to detect bioterrorist threats to our communities, and that our hospitals and emergency rooms need to contain bioterrorism; (2) improve the capability for our health system to develop and implement distribution plans for vaccines; (3) lead efforts to increase and improve our stockpiles of medicines; and (4) expedite development of new vaccines.
Provide our First Responders the Resources they Need. America’s first responders need the equipment and manpower to do the job right. Our local officials shouldn’t have to choose between security and public education – we can do better. To make our homeland security strategy more efficient, Kerry will bring the people on the front lines together to design the standard capabilities needed to respond to a terrorist attack. And he will work to get federal dollars to communities faster and more efficiently.
V. DENY TERRORISTS SAFE HAVENS AND NEW RECRUITS. John Kerry knows that to win the war on terror, America must use all elements of national power to deny terrorists new havens and recruits and prevent terrorists from poisoning minds around the world. America must show that we are willing to use our economic power for the common good; to defeat abject poverty and disease that destroy lives and create failed states in every part of the world.

Work to Prevent Weak and Failing States from Becoming Terrorist Havens. Kerry will work with our allies and the international community to develop comprehensive strategies to strengthen weak states and secure and rebuild failed states around the world.

Strategically Target Assistance to Weak and Failed States. As president, Kerry will provide strategically focused assistance to weak and failed states to help them build democratic institutions, better secure their territories, and achieve broad-based economic development. Kerry will help them increase their capacity to meet the needs of their citizens for decent, basic education, basic health and disease prevention services and support the development of small and medium-size enterprises.
Develop Rapid Response Capacity. John Kerry will develop an enlarged country-in-transition fund to enable the U.S. government to respond swiftly to crises and opportunities in weak and failed states. With our allies, we will also support initiatives to increase the capacity of developing countries and regional organizations such as the African Union and ASEAN to respond rapidly with peacekeeping force to prevent and resolve conflicts. The United States must provide the leadership needed for this effort to really succeed.
Refocus Diplomatic, Intelligence and Other Assets on Failed States. The 2002 National Security Strategy stated: “America is now threatened less by conquering states than we are by failing ones.” Yet the Bush administration’s distribution of our diplomatic, intelligence and other assets does not reflect that. A Kerry administration will ensure that America has the best intelligence possible on weak and failed states.
Share Burden with Allies and International Community. America cannot bear the burden of strengthening weak states and securing and rebuilding failed states around the world alone – our allies, regional powers and international institutions must also do their share. Kerry will rebuild our alliances and bring others in the international community together to address the risks that failed states pose to people all over the world.
Lead a Global Education Initiative. Under a new Global Education Initiative, America will lead the world to provide universal basic education by 2015. It is critical that we not only seek to empower reformers to achieve quality public education through the Arab and Muslim world – where a lack of funding has helped foster radical schools that teach hate – but that we also support a global effort for free universal education throughout Africa and the developing world. Increasing education in poor nations – especially for girls – has been shown to be extremely effective in raising incomes, reducing infant mortality and preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS.
Cancel the Debt of the World’s Poorest Countries. John Kerry supports wiping clean the debts of the world’s most heavily indebted poor countries (HIPC) that are reforming their economies and investing in their human capital. Debt relief will give them a fresh start to invest in health, education, and infrastructure. And Kerry will direct his Secretary of the Treasury to initiate negotiations with the Paris Club of Official Creditors, the World Bank, the IMF, and others with the goal of modifying the Enhanced Heavily Indebted Poor Countries Initiative to provide substantially greater debt reduction to a broader set of poor countries. Kerry understands that debt cancellation should not come at the expense of future foreign aid flows to poor countries.
Address Global Health Priorities. Epidemics can decimate societies and contribute to weak and failed states, which can become safe havens and recruiting grounds for terrorists and other criminal elements. John Kerry will invest more in health care infrastructure in weak and failing states, and dedicate greater attention and increased resources to training health care professionals and community health care workers. As president, Kerry will double the U.S. funding to fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria to $30 billion by 2008 and encourage other countries, corporations and foundations to do their share. And in a Kerry administration, global health policy will be driven by science instead of ideology.
VI. SUPPORT DEMOCRACIES IN THE ARAB AND MUSLIM WORLD. We must support the development of free and democratic societies in the Arab and Muslim world to win the war of ideas. While countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Uzbekistan, have at times helped us in the hunt for individual terrorists, they have not always been good allies in turning back the terrorists’ cause. In a Kerry administration, America will be clear with repressive governments in the region that we expect to see them change, not just for our sake but for their own survival. And Kerry will restore America’s moral authority by leading by example and by promoting respect for the rule of law.

Launch a Major Public Diplomacy Initiative. Kerry will lead a major initiative in public diplomacy to train a new generation of American scholars, diplomats, military officers, and democracy builders who understand the Arab and Muslim world, just as we built our knowledge of the Soviet empire during the Cold War. And Kerry will open diplomatic posts and invest in academic programs, scholarships and exchanges with the Muslim world so we can build better bridges and craft more effective policies.
Convene a Summit to Increase Mutual Cooperation. As president, John Kerry will convene – and attend – a summit with European partners and leaders from the Muslim world to discuss how we can collectively work together to establish new programs aimed at increasing mutual understanding, economic growth, and the fight against terror.
VII. RESTORE ALLIANCES TO COMBAT TERRORIST NETWORKS ACROSS THE GLOBE. Kerry will ensure that America always remains the world’s paramount military power. He will also restore alliances to magnify our power, and increase intelligence and law enforcement coordination so that we can stop terrorists hidden around the world before they can strike at us.

Mephisto2 · 11-01-2004, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikdaddydru

Ha! I definitely agree. I'd like to find out more about their politics. They can't be as locked down as ours.

You'd be surprised mate.

Not as "one sided" as the US. In Australia, like in much of Europe, you really do have a real choice between right-wing conservative governments and left-wing liberal governments (broadly speaking).

Unfortunately, Australia recently returned the right-wing government.

Mr Mephisto

crewsor · 11-01-2004, 02:36 PM

I vote nothing. I won't be happy its Kerry. I wouldn't be happy if its Bush. They are both equally distastefull to me. Its sad you have to pick the lesser of two evils.

james t kirk · 11-01-2004, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliali

No, Bush is not a working class guy. Both are wealthy. I didn't suggest I was voting for Bush--the question was how do you feel about Kerry winning.

Bush didn't just approve of a tax cut. He is completely responsible for the tax cut, which reduced taxes for everyone that pays them. The progressivity of the fed. tax system was mostly unchanged by the cuts. No one likes to pay taxes, but Kerry's wealth comes from having it already rather than making it. Therefore he disproportionaly lives a high lifestyle that has income as a product of capital gains, which are taxed at a much lower level. If Kerry and I make the same amount next year, I'll pay twice the taxes. Where Bush has and wants to lower taxes on income, Kerry has always opposed reductions in marginal tax rates. In fact, he wants to raise them.

Even though Bush and Kerry are both rich, I just think Kerry is a different type of rich. And I don't like the idea of giving him all of the perks that come with the White House. It's the truth and W being rich doesn't help me with that. Sorry.

W Bush got his money from his daddy and his daddy GH Bush got his money from his daddy - Prescott Bush. And Prescott Bush made a lot of money financing the Nazis up until almost 1943 when Congress passed the "Trading with the Enemy" law.

W Bush never worked a day in his life till he was 40 and his daddy got sick of watching him hang around the house and got him a job, then when that didn't pan out, he got him another job, then when that didn't pan out he arranged for financing for W to buy the Texas Rangers as a shareholder.

The rest is history.

W has never done an honest day's work in his life.

And the tax cut??

Have you seen the deficity numbers of late?

All Bush did was borrow money to give a tax cut that you can not afford.

Yep, there's a fine upstanding young man.

Stompy · 11-01-2004, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

It never ceases to amaze me that Bush supporters think that Bush will keep the country more safe from terrorism. They still don't realize that the largest terrorist attack in the countries history happened under his watch (or lack thereof).

That's the wonderful illusion he created! The funny thing is, they fall for it.

See, 9/11 happened under Bush's watch, but in all honesty, it would've happened under anyone else's for the simple fact people didn't pay attention.

Now, we pay attention to suspicious activity more, that's the only difference. But, while we focus all of our attention on airports and planes, there's no doubt plans to strike something else using a method we're not watching.

The thing I dislike about Bush is how he tricks people into thinking they're safe, and he tricks them into thinking HE made them safe. Totally not true.

The thing is, these attacks take years to plan, so it's not like anyone can use the, "well, we haven't been attacked since, so he's obviously doing a good job." I really don't know what kind of backwards logic that is...

People are also under the illusion that Kerry would ignore terrorism. He never ONCE said that... not even remotely. In fact, he's said on many occasions that he will focus the war on terror where it SHOULD be instead of just in Iraq. People just have a nice habit of twisting words around to mean whatever they want them to mean. It's irritating and very hard to hold any intelligent conversation with those who time and time again prove themselves to have tunnel vision.

So anyone who thinks that Kerry becoming president automatically means that the US is allowing terrorists to do whatever the hell they want is just seriously misinformed.

In fact, I would REALLY love to hear why people think we are safer now. Is it because of the terror alert system to let you know when something's afoot at the circle K? Is it... the quarterly warnings of "Al Qaeda is planning a large scale attack in the next few months" so that must mean "HEY, those guys are sure on top of things!" ? I mean.. really.. do tell.

Mephisto2 · 11-01-2004, 03:01 PM

To be fair, it should also be said that if Gore was in power, the 9/11 attacks would almost certainly have happened anyway.

You can't blame Bush that the attacks happened "on his watch." You can blame him if you think his response has not been what you would prefer. But that's politcs.

Mr Mephisto

dksuddeth · 11-01-2004, 03:09 PM

I'm going to be dissapointed in a kerry victory. The DNC should have gone with edwards as the presidential candidate. At least that way they couldn't try to use his voting record against him.

Rdr4evr · 11-01-2004, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

To be fair, it should also be said that if Gore was in power, the 9/11 attacks would almost certainly have happened anyway.

You can't blame Bush that the attacks happened "on his watch." You can blame him if you think his response has not been what you would prefer. But that's politcs.

Mr Mephisto

Yes, I can blame him because he ignored repeated threats of an imminent attack

mattevil · 11-01-2004, 03:30 PM

I'll actually be happy. I like the kerry/edwards ticket oddly enough.
EDIT:
actually come to think of it I'll probably be like Bill Hicks and have to be rushed out of the country to "protect Bush's eardrums from my shrieks of laughter""

Mephisto2 · 11-01-2004, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

Yes, I can blame him because he ignored repeated threats of an imminent attack

Yes, and Clinton lost the opportunity of taking out Bin Laden when given the opportunity.

So is it Clinton's fault too?

Mr Mephisto

Dwayne · 11-01-2004, 04:08 PM

Ill be dancing in the streets because George Bush wasnt elected.

ShaniFaye · 11-01-2004, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Yes, and Clinton lost the opportunity of taking out Bin Laden when given the opportunity.

So is it Clinton's fault too?

Mr Mephisto

how many times were American interests attacked under clinton? Wasnt it something like 5? so yeah...if Clinton had done something THEN kerry supporters would have to find another person to blame

Stompy · 11-01-2004, 05:50 PM

Ok, we had the first WTC bombing when it was TOTALLY unexpected.

Oklahoma City bombing, completely unexpected.

Then Bin Laden stated his hatred of America in the mid to late 90's.

US Embassy bombing... then the USS Cole. (Was there something else?)

Totally different than 9/11.

I'm not blaming Bush, because like I said above, it could've happened under anyone's watch... but to blame Clinton for the above is a bit odd seeing as how most of it was unexpected and out of our control. I mean, USS Cole.. the thing is a WARSHIP, what the hell are they doing caught off guard? Clinton's fault? No. Commander of the ship's fault? Yes. US Embassy (in another country), Clinton's fault? Why would it be Clinton's fault? Oklahoma... same, that was totally out of left field. That'd be like blaming Clinton for Columbine.

Anyway, fast forward to 2001, it wasn't a surprise that terrorists (especially Bin Laden), wanted to strike the US. 1993? A surprise, yes, but 2001? No. A lot happened in between.

It just goes to show that you aren't as safe as you think you are. If someone wanted to, they could probably do another Oklahoma bombing against federal interest... easily.

Kurant · 11-01-2004, 06:29 PM

I find it disturbing 68% of the survery doesn't complete object to Kerry being President of the United States.

IMO, Kerry wins the election tomarrow. As much as I don't want him too, my intuition, and this survery, although representing a very small scale, is the reason why Kerry gets elected.

Coppertop · 11-01-2004, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by connyosis

Ok, well IMHO any Kerry (Or Bush) supporter who thinks the country is going to be safe if respective candidate gets elected are just stupid. Of course terror isn't just going to go away because someone becomes or not become the president. The real question is which candidate can do a better job securing the country.

Surely a better question might be:

Which candidate will do a better job of pissing off every other nation in the world, making us more likely to be attacked, thus ensuring his continued employment with his rhetoric of making us more secure?

Go_AVS · 11-01-2004, 09:13 PM

Very, very, disappointed and not really looking forward to the tax increases and other ramifications...

thefictionweliv · 11-02-2004, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

Bush has already demonstrated that he will order U.S. troops into harms way
when it is not absolutely necessary, and at least 1122 of our brave and dedicated soldiers have been killed as a result, including at least eight fine
young U.S. Marines over this weekend. Just what is it that you believe Kerry
might do as commander in chief that could be a greater betrayal of the trust,
respect, and allegiance of the members of our military than that? Why would you
be happier to serve under a commander who deliberately avoided combat service
when he was your age, than a commander who volunteered to not only serve
in combat, but to serve in a unit with an immediately past history of repeatedly
engaging the enemy while suffering a high casualty rate to its own personnel?

thefictionweliv, at your young age, are you certain that your assessment is
superior to the opinion of these 36 editorial boards? You, more than most
Americans, have a great deal at stake as far as the outcome of this election.
Thank you for your service and may God bless you and protect you.

I'm more concerned about Kerry's policy on North Korea, N. Korea is not going to listen to listen to unilateral talks with the United States, that is the method Kerry said he is going to use and on the Today show said he would support a first strike on N. Korea if diplomacy doesn't work. This would make Iraq look like a firecracker, Bush at least supports talks involving China and Russia which would be far more likely to get North Korea to budge, through our attempt at controling politics in the Middle East and the Vietnam war , I'm confident that N. Korea probably feels secure enough to face war on one front rather than giving into our demands, involve China and Russia, 2 more fronts and you might have something to work with, that is why I would hope that anyone but Kerry wins this election.

connyosis · 11-02-2004, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coppertop

Surely a better question might be:

Which candidate will do a better job of pissing off every other nation in the world, making us more likely to be attacked, thus ensuring his continued employment with his rhetoric of making us more secure?

I suppose thats one way of looking at it yeah. :-)

ShaniFaye · 11-02-2004, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

Ok, we had the first WTC bombing when it was TOTALLY unexpected.

Oklahoma City bombing, completely unexpected.

Then Bin Laden stated his hatred of America in the mid to late 90's.

US Embassy bombing... then the USS Cole. (Was there something else?)

Totally different than 9/11.

I'm not blaming Bush, because like I said above, it could've happened under anyone's watch... but to blame Clinton for the above is a bit odd seeing as how most of it was unexpected and out of our control. I mean, USS Cole.. the thing is a WARSHIP, what the hell are they doing caught off guard? Clinton's fault? No. Commander of the ship's fault? Yes. US Embassy (in another country), Clinton's fault? Why would it be Clinton's fault? Oklahoma... same, that was totally out of left field. That'd be like blaming Clinton for Columbine.

Anyway, fast forward to 2001, it wasn't a surprise that terrorists (especially Bin Laden), wanted to strike the US. 1993? A surprise, yes, but 2001? No. A lot happened in between.

It just goes to show that you aren't as safe as you think you are. If someone wanted to, they could probably do another Oklahoma bombing against federal interest... easily.

All Im saying is... a LOT happened under Clinton, for people to "blame" Bush cause it happened under "his" watch is silly....

1993 First WTC bombing
1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia
1996 al-Khobar towers bombing in Saudi Arabia
1998 Embassy bombings in South Africa
2000 bombing of the USS Cole

(I did not include Oklahoma because that was an American terrorist...same as Waco)

BigBlueWrecking · 11-02-2004, 05:57 AM

Bush is quite possibly the worst president we have ever had. I can see how people are not thrilled with Kerry, because I am not thrilled with him either. I CAN'T see for the life of me how anyone thinks Bush has done a good job over the last four years. I put estatic just because I think Bush will do more harm then anyone else ever could.

teph · 11-02-2004, 10:34 AM

Pissed off at seeing video of terrorists dancing in the streets shooting their guns in the air . . .

avhg1 · 11-02-2004, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quicksteal

Sad b/c I'll have to find a new country to live in, and Europe and Canada won't work either. Maybe Australia--I could get used to saying "mate" all the time.

Funny, I feel just the opposite! I'm just tired of America looking like a bunch of uneducated, power happy, cowboys that can't speak two sentences without saying "um".

The president is a representative of our country. If the majority of us are as big of idiots as Bush, I need to move. Kerry is not ideal, but at least he can speak intelligently.

Averett · 11-02-2004, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quicksteal

Sad b/c I'll have to find a new country to live in, and Europe and Canada won't work either. Maybe Australia--I could get used to saying "mate" all the time.

You do realize that Europe isn't a country, right?

Coppertop · 11-02-2004, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Averett

You do realize that Europe isn't a country, right?

As you requested: get back to work!

/threadjack

Mojo_PeiPei · 11-02-2004, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avhg1

Funny, I feel just the opposite! I'm just tired of America looking like a bunch of uneducated, power happy, cowboys that can't speak two sentences without saying "um".

The president is a representative of our country. If the majority of us are as big of idiots as Bush, I need to move. Kerry is not ideal, but at least he can speak intelligently.

Cause paying lip service with empty words, is clearly a sign of intelligence?

Get serious, you have been duped.

avhg1 · 11-02-2004, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Cause paying lip service with empty words, is clearly a sign of intelligence?

Get serious, you have been duped.

I'm not saying that it is a sign of intelligence. We've seen what Bush has to offer and it's not much. Kerry is not my ideal choice, but he's better than Bush.

Halx · 11-02-2004, 12:41 PM

At least he'll be elected and not appointed, ya know?

View Poll Results: How will you feel if KERRY is elected?
Ecstatic	37	20.11%
Happy	27	14.67%
Satisfied	51	27.72%
Nothing	11	5.98%
Disappointed	34	18.48%
Angry	12	6.52%
Postal	12	6.52%
Voters: 184. You may not vote on this poll

11-01-2004, 11:40 AM	#43 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Just goes to show how misinformed people are Yeah, because Kerry flat out said, "When we get attacked, I'm going to ask permission to defend our country." See, he was talking about attacking Iraq, not Afghanistan. Remember, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11! People have selective memory. Then they mix that selective memory with already existing misinformation to produce nonsense. It's like these people are robots... uttering the SAME overused cliche remarks such as "flip flop" or "hey, we now have to ask other countries permission to wipe our ass!" This is the very reason why I'm no longer a Bush supporter. I can't believe people actually believe this stuff. __________________ I love lamp.

11-01-2004, 02:36 PM	#55 (permalink)
crewsor Women want me. Men fear me. Location: Maryland,USA	I vote nothing. I won't be happy its Kerry. I wouldn't be happy if its Bush. They are both equally distastefull to me. Its sad you have to pick the lesser of two evils. __________________ We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

11-01-2004, 03:30 PM	#61 (permalink)
mattevil Addict Location: Virginia	I'll actually be happy. I like the kerry/edwards ticket oddly enough. EDIT: actually come to think of it I'll probably be like Bill Hicks and have to be rushed out of the country to "protect Bush's eardrums from my shrieks of laughter"" Last edited by mattevil; 11-01-2004 at 04:17 PM..

11-01-2004, 05:50 PM	#65 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Ok, we had the first WTC bombing when it was TOTALLY unexpected. Oklahoma City bombing, completely unexpected. Then Bin Laden stated his hatred of America in the mid to late 90's. US Embassy bombing... then the USS Cole. (Was there something else?) Totally different than 9/11. I'm not blaming Bush, because like I said above, it could've happened under anyone's watch... but to blame Clinton for the above is a bit odd seeing as how most of it was unexpected and out of our control. I mean, USS Cole.. the thing is a WARSHIP, what the hell are they doing caught off guard? Clinton's fault? No. Commander of the ship's fault? Yes. US Embassy (in another country), Clinton's fault? Why would it be Clinton's fault? Oklahoma... same, that was totally out of left field. That'd be like blaming Clinton for Columbine. Anyway, fast forward to 2001, it wasn't a surprise that terrorists (especially Bin Laden), wanted to strike the US. 1993? A surprise, yes, but 2001? No. A lot happened in between. It just goes to show that you aren't as safe as you think you are. If someone wanted to, they could probably do another Oklahoma bombing against federal interest... easily. __________________ I love lamp.

11-01-2004, 12:15 PM	#47 (permalink)
mused76 Crazy Location: NE Ohio	i'd feel angry because i am tired of his supporters who are compliant with his ill advised answers. he tells them whatever they want to hear and i can't wait until this stuff is over tomorrow. amen.

11-01-2004, 12:35 PM	#49 (permalink)
daswig Banned Location: BFE	dang, where's the "disgusted" category?

11-01-2004, 02:07 PM	#50 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	It never ceases to amaze me that Bush supporters think that Bush will keep the country more safe from terrorism. They still don't realize that the largest terrorist attack in the countries history happened under his watch (or lack thereof).

11-01-2004, 03:01 PM	#58 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	To be fair, it should also be said that if Gore was in power, the 9/11 attacks would almost certainly have happened anyway. You can't blame Bush that the attacks happened "on his watch." You can blame him if you think his response has not been what you would prefer. But that's politcs. Mr Mephisto

11-01-2004, 03:09 PM	#59 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	I'm going to be dissapointed in a kerry victory. The DNC should have gone with edwards as the presidential candidate. At least that way they couldn't try to use his voting record against him.

11-01-2004, 04:08 PM	#63 (permalink)
Dwayne Crazy Location: New England	Ill be dancing in the streets because George Bush wasnt elected.

11-01-2004, 06:29 PM	#66 (permalink)
Kurant Junkie Location: Don't worry about it.	I find it disturbing 68% of the survery doesn't complete object to Kerry being President of the United States. IMO, Kerry wins the election tomarrow. As much as I don't want him too, my intuition, and this survery, although representing a very small scale, is the reason why Kerry gets elected.

11-01-2004, 09:13 PM	#68 (permalink)
Go_AVS CSU RAM fan Location: Hockey time....	Very, very, disappointed and not really looking forward to the tax increases and other ramifications... __________________ MIA...

11-02-2004, 05:57 AM	#72 (permalink)
BigBlueWrecking Psycho	Bush is quite possibly the worst president we have ever had. I can see how people are not thrilled with Kerry, because I am not thrilled with him either. I CAN'T see for the life of me how anyone thinks Bush has done a good job over the last four years. I put estatic just because I think Bush will do more harm then anyone else ever could.

11-02-2004, 10:34 AM	#73 (permalink)
teph Insane Location: Atlanta, GA	Pissed off at seeing video of terrorists dancing in the streets shooting their guns in the air . . .

11-02-2004, 12:41 PM	#79 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	At least he'll be elected and not appointed, ya know? __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]