Greatest American - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Gatorade Frost · 10-28-2004, 03:03 PM

Al Gore.

Inventor of the internet.

Free porn. All the time.

And because without him the last 4 years wouldn't have been quite as interesting.

There's too many Americans that were great to choose just one. Personally I'd take Lincoln off of the list because he was a divider who got shot at the opportune time. JFK's life was too short to really see what would've come out of his presidency and that's something very regrettable.

I'd like to say FDR for his leadership during WWII and through the great depression.

dksuddeth · 10-28-2004, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

That's a fair comment. But some of them are more "not nicer" than others... if you know what I mean.

Let's take Lincoln. He wasn't perfect, but I don't believe he had a bad bone in his body. He certainly did not stomp all over people like Ford.

yet he did restrict civil liberties way beyond any other president, past or present, and even had people arrested (most notably a supreme court justice) who disagreed with his decision for the war.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Kennedy, on the other hand, is often described as a great American, yet he was a liar, a philanderer and (some could argue) brought the world close to nuclear war.

It could also be argued that he prevented it by blockading russian missiles to cuba.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Good and bad. Two sides of the same coin.

couldnt agree more.

flstf · 10-28-2004, 05:24 PM

Too many to mention and no real standout. Maybe FDR - after the great depression, Lincoln - president during our darkest hours, Eisenhower - fantastic post war economic expansion in the 50s. Many of the founding fathers.

Don't know how much these guys had to do with the results of the times. But with the exception of the founding fathers, I think the great experiment of American democracy has lasted this long mostly in spite of our leaders and not because of them.

Suave · 10-28-2004, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aliali

Carlin over Chapelle if you are going to go that way.

Carlin was really funny back in the 70s and maybe 80s (even 60s if he was doing comedy then), but I saw some of his recent standup, and it was worse than unfunny. It was stupid and irritating. He just bitched and moaned and threw in as many swears as he possibly could, and I honestly wanted to somehow punch him through the TV.

daswig · 10-29-2004, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

And if you disagree with my suggestion, please give reasons.

(pulling out my big honkin book of Lincoln quotes)

Here's one for you, Mephisto...

Quote:

Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged.

What's more interesting is that he actually carried through on it, having an Ohio Congressman named Vallandigham arrested, tried by a military tribunal, stripped of his citizenship, and deported.

Or, how's this on race relations? Source: http://www.nps.gov/liho/debate1.htm First Lincoln-Douglas debate

Quote:

"My first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia,-to their own native land. But a moment's reflection would convince me, that whatever of high hope, (as I think there is) there may be in this, in the long run, its sudden execution is impossible. If they were all landed there in a day, they would all perish in the next ten days; and there are not surplus shipping and surplus money enough in the world to carry them there in many times ten days. What then? Free them all, and keep them among us as underlings? Is it quite certain that this betters their condition? I think I would not hold one in slavery at any rate; yet the point is not clear enough to me to denounce people upon. What next? Free them, and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this; and if mine would, we well know that those of the great mass of white people will not. Whether this feeling accords with justice and sound judgment, is not the sole question, if, indeed, it is any part of it. A universal feeling, whether well or ill-founded, cannot be safely disregarded. We cannot, then, make them equals. It does seem to me that systems of gradual emancipation might be adopted; but for their tardiness in this, I will not undertake to judge our brethren of the South."

Or this?

Quote:

I don't want to read at any greater length, but this is the true complexion of all I have ever said in regard to the institution of slavery and the black race. This is the whole of it, and anything that argues me into his idea of perfect social and political equality with the negro, is but a specious and fantastic arrangement of words, by which a man can prove a horse-chestnut to be a chestnut horse. [Laughter.] I will say here, while upon this subject, that I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary, but I hold that, notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. [Loud cheers.] I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas he is not my equal in many respects-certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment. But in the right to eat the bread, without the leave of anybody else, which his own hand earns, he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man.

From the Second debate: http://www.nps.gov/liho/debate2.htm

Quote:

I do not now, nor ever did, stand in favor of the unconditional repeal of the Fugitive Slave law. (skip a bit) As to the first one, in regard to the Fugitive Slave law, I have never hesitated to say, and I do not now hesitate to say, that I think, under the Constitution of the United States, the people of the Southern States are entitled to a Congressional Fugitive Slave law. Having said that, I have had nothing to say in regard to the existing Fugitive Slave law, further than that I think it should have been framed so as to be free from some of the objections that pertain to it, without lessening its efficiency.

Sounds like quite the White Supremacist, doesn't he?

The Emancipation Proclaimation was a tool to use against the South during the war. You'll remember that NORTHERN slaves had to wait for the ratification of the 13th Amendment to be freed...which happened well AFTER Lincoln's death.

Or how about Lincoln's suspension of the writ of habeus corpus in 1861, and his imprisonment of a decent chunk of Maryland's legislature in Fort McHenry? Let me ask you this...what would you think if Bush had filled Gitmo with Congresscritters who opposed the war? Because that's pretty much what Lincoln did. The Supreme Court said basically "You can't do that, that's unconstitutional!" in U.S. v. Merryman, issuing a writ ordering the release of the imprisoned lawmakers. Lincoln's response? He ignored it and left them in jail. Eventually Congress passed a law giving him that power....but only AFTER he'd already purged everybody that disagreed with him (like Vallandigham).

So, I guess Lincoln has some problems as far as considering him the greatest American...unless, of course, Julius Caesar was the greatest "president" of the Roman Empire...

Locobot · 10-29-2004, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

why edison? because of the incandescent light bulb?
if you are thinking in terms of people who have developed either objects or processing for producing them that have greatly influenced the way of life now, you probably would have to include henry ford in there.
for the assembly line.
for pioneering consumer credit
for the logic of high-wage jobs for working people.

but he was also a scumbag.
so i dont know.
the more i think about this, the more confused i get about the criteria for "greatness"

Not to downplay Ford's accomplishments, but I think his rabid anti-semitism takes him out of the running for "greatest American." His assembly line was based on the 19th century Chicago stockyards which featured specialized workers to complete the dis-assembly of animals.

daswig · 10-29-2004, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bling

Lincoln, yeah - the greatest President, by far. He's essentially mythological at this point.

Unfortunately, mythology all too often isn't really based upon reality.

Lincoln was a petty tyrant.

daswig · 10-29-2004, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

Something I could never understand is how people think Lincoln was the greatest president ever. He wasn't about freeing the slaves, he was about keeping the Union together and practically threw away the US constitution to do so. Lincoln was probably one of the WORST presidents because of this.

Greatest american ever, in my opinion, would be FDR. Pulled the country out of the depression using extremely orthodox methods and helped fight tyranny in europe during WW2.

I'd suggest you need to read up on some of the things FDR did. Topping the list would be his Court Packing scheme. Lincoln ignored the Supreme Court. FDR beat it into submission, and we're just now getting over it. See U.S. v. Lopez, (1992).

Locobot · 10-29-2004, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daswig

(pulling out my big honkin book of Lincoln quotes)

Here's one for you, Mephisto...

What's more interesting is that he actually carried through on it, having an Ohio Congressman named Vallandigham arrested, tried by a military tribunal, stripped of his citizenship, and deported.

Not doubting your veracity here, but can you point us to a source for this?

Quote:

Or, how's this on race relations? Source: http://www.nps.gov/liho/debate1.htm First Lincoln-Douglas debate

Or this?

From the Second debate: http://www.nps.gov/liho/debate2.htm

Sounds like quite the White Supremacist, doesn't he?

Well sure he sounds like a white supremacist now, but he was saying these things 145 years ago. You have to understand that these postions were considered radically progressive at the time. Sending the slaves back to Africa was a common abolitionist plan. In fact it is the final didactic message of Uncle Tom's Cabin, heard of it? Liberia was founded as an American colony of ex-slaves so it was infinitely preferrable for slaves to the South's plan of perpetual work without pay for them, their children, their children's children etc.

Quote:

The Emancipation Proclaimation was a tool to use against the South during the war. You'll remember that NORTHERN slaves had to wait for the ratification of the 13th Amendment to be freed...which happened well AFTER Lincoln's death.

Well on paper, sure, the reality at the time was a different story. Lincoln knew what he was doing when he wrote the Emancipation Proclaimation. You have to remember that freeing all the slaves would have have been highly unpopular even in the North.

Quote:

Or how about Lincoln's suspension of the writ of habeus corpus in 1861, and his imprisonment of a decent chunk of Maryland's legislature in Fort McHenry? Let me ask you this...what would you think if Bush had filled Gitmo with Congresscritters who opposed the war? Because that's pretty much what Lincoln did. The Supreme Court said basically "You can't do that, that's unconstitutional!" in U.S. v. Merryman, issuing a writ ordering the release of the imprisoned lawmakers. Lincoln's response? He ignored it and left them in jail. Eventually Congress passed a law giving him that power....but only AFTER he'd already purged everybody that disagreed with him (like Vallandigham).

So, I guess Lincoln has some problems as far as considering him the greatest American...unless, of course, Julius Caesar was the greatest "president" of the Roman Empire...

Not sure I understand your Julius Caesar-Abe Lincoln analogy. Are you saying that had he lived Lincoln would have declared himself emperor for life? I don't really see that in his personality. It's funny that you feel the need to assassinate our first Republican's character. You're not one of those "the South really won" people are you? Because the South got their asses collectively kicked in the civil war, even with the greatest American general, Robert E. Lee, commanding their army.

host · 10-29-2004, 03:41 AM

Lincoln would not be acceptable to many republicans if they knew more about
his sexual orientation. Here are some excerpts from the 2004 North Carolina
Republican Party Platform; as an example............

Quote:

<a href="http://www.blogactive.com/">NC GOP Remains Mum on Anti Gay Flyers</a>
4. We believe homosexuality is not normal and should not be established as an acceptable "alternative" lifestyle either in public education or in public policy. We do not believe public schools should be used to teach children that homosexuality is normal, and we do not believe that taxpayers should fund benefit plans for unmarried partners. We oppose special treatment by law based on nothing other than homosexual behavior or identity. We oppose actions, such as “marriage” or the adoption of children by same-sex couples, which attempt to legitimize and normalize homosexual relationships. We support the Defense of Marriage Act and will support a constitutional amendment to ensure that marriage is limited to the union of one man and one woman. We commend private organizations, such as the Boy Scouts, which defend moral decency and freedom according to their own well-established traditions and beliefs.

3. America's defense must come second to none. The Republican Party of North Carolina opposes any attempts to weaken our national defense. We support efforts to: (1) restore the ban against known homosexuals in the military

In his twenties, Lincoln slept in the same bed with a man
named Joshua Speed. Poet Carl Sandburg did not hide this side of Lincoln in his
Lincoln biography, "The Prarie Years".......

Quote:

<a href="http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/49/news-ireland.php">http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/49/news-ireland.php</a>
Was Abe Lincoln Gay?
The blockbuster book that will change America’s history
by Doug Ireland

One of the few traditional Lincolnists to describe (however obliquely) the lifelong Lincoln-Speed relationship as homosexual was the Illinois poet Carl Sandburg, in his masterful, six-volume Lincoln biography. In the tome titled The Prairie Years (1926), Sandburg wrote that both Lincoln and Speed had "a streak of lavender, and spots soft as May violets." "I do not feel my own sorrows more keenly than I do yours," Lincoln wrote Speed in one letter. And again, "You know my desire to befriend you is everlasting." In a detailed retelling of the Lincoln-Speed love story — including the "lust at first sight" encounter between the two young men, when Lincoln readily accepted Speed’s eager invitation to share his narrow bed — Tripp notes that Speed was the only human being to whom the president ever signed his letters with the unusually tender (for Lincoln) "yours forever" — a salutation Lincoln never even used to his wife. Speed himself acknowledged that "No two men were ever so intimate." And Tripp credibly describes Lincoln’s near nervous breakdown following Speed’s decision to end their four-year affair by returning to his native Kentucky.

My vote would go to Tesla.....he never got the credit, reward, or reputation
for the true genius of his inventions.........Edison got the credit for electrifying the U.S. in the late 19th century, but it was Nikola Tesla
who designed and built the practical AC electrical generation and distribution system that won out over Edison's unworkable
DC current design. In the 1940's, Tesla finally was acknowledged as the
first to patent wireless radio, not Marconi !

Quote:

Unlike the Bremer administration in Iraq in 2003, Tesla was
able to build his newly designed AC generators in Westinghouse's factory and
install them at the Adams Power Station no. 1 at Niagara Falls in just one
year's time in 1895. Three of his 1895 generators were still in operation 58
years later, in 1953! <a href="http://americanhistory.si.edu/archives/d8047c.htm">http://americanhistory.si.edu/archives/d8047c.htm</a>

Quote:

<a href="http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/ll_warcur.html">http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/ll_warcur.html</a> In November and December of 1887, Tesla filed for seven U.S. patents in the field of polyphase AC motors and power transmission. These comprised a complete system of generators, transformers, transmission lines, motors and lighting. So original were the ideas that they were issued without a successful challenge, and would turn out to be the most valuable patents since the telephone.....

.......With the breakthrough provided by Tesla's patents, a full-scale industrial war erupted. At stake, in effect, was the future of industrial development in the United States, and whether Westinghouse's alternating current or Edison's direct current would be the chosen technology.

It was at this time that Edison launched a propaganda war against alternating current. Westinghouse recalled:

I remember Tom [Edison] telling them that direct current was like a river flowing peacefully to the sea, while alternating current was like a torrent rushing violently over a precipice. Imagine that! Why they even had a professor named Harold Brown who went around talking to audiences... and electrocuting dogs and old horses right on stage, to show how dangerous alternating current was. ..........

.....The Columbian Exposition opened on May 1, 1893. That evening, President Grover Cleveland pushed a button and a hundred thousand incandescent lamps illuminated the fairground's neoclassical buildings. This "City of Light" was the work of Tesla, Westinghouse and twelve new thousand-horsepower AC generation units located in the Hall of Machinery. In the Great Hall of Electricity, the Tesla polyphase system of alternating current power generation and transmission was proudly displayed. For the twenty-seven million people who attended the fair, it was dramatically clear that the power of the future was AC. From that point forward more than 80 percent of all the electrical devices ordered in the United States were for alternating current.

<a href="http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/ll_whoradio.html">http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/ll_whoradio.html</a>
Tesla filed his own basic radio patent applications in 1897. They were granted in 1900. Marconi's first patent application in America, filed on November 10, 1900, was turned down. Marconi's revised applications over the next three years were repeatedly rejected because of the priority of Tesla and other inventors.

....But no patent is truly safe, as Tesla's career demonstrates. In 1900, the Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company, Ltd. began thriving in the stock markets—due primarily to Marconi's family connections with English aristocracy. British Marconi stock soared from $3 to $22 per share and the glamorous young Italian nobleman was internationally acclaimed. Both Edison and Andrew Carnegie invested in Marconi and Edison became a consulting engineer of American Marconi. Then, on December 12, 1901, Marconi for the first time transmitted and received signals across the Atlantic Ocean.

Otis Pond, an engineer then working for Tesla, said, "Looks as if Marconi got the jump on you." Tesla replied, "Marconi is a good fellow. Let him continue. He is using seventeen of my patents."

But Tesla's calm confidence was shattered in 1904, when the U.S. Patent Office suddenly and surprisingly reversed its previous decisions and gave Marconi a patent for the invention of radio. The reasons for this have never been fully explained, but the powerful financial backing for Marconi in the United States suggests one possible explanation.

Tesla was embroiled in other problems at the time, but when Marconi won the Nobel Prize in 1911, Tesla was furious. He sued the Marconi Company for infringement in 1915, but was in no financial condition to litigate a case against a major corporation. It wasn't until 1943—a few months after Tesla's death— that the U.S. Supreme Court upheld Tesla's radio patent number 645,576. The Court had a selfish reason for doing so. The Marconi Company was suing the United States Government for use of its patents in World War I. The Court simply avoided the action by restoring the priority of Tesla's patent over Marconi.

Tesla was a truly remarkable, naturalized American citizen. He was the emitome of the spirit that America was once known for. It is entirely fitting,
in view of the way his contributions changed the lives of so many people,
that he be considered "Greatest American".

daswig · 10-29-2004, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locobot

Not doubting your veracity here, but can you point us to a source for this?

Sure. Here you go: This is the first page that turned up on a google search for "Vallandigham"

http://www.civilwarhome.com/vallandighambio.htm

Quote:

On 13 Apr. 1863, Maj. Gen. Ambrose E. Burnside, Commmander of the Department Of The Ohio, had issued General Order No. 38, forbidding expression of sympathy for the enemy. On 30 Apr. Vallandigham addressed a large audience in Columbus, made derogatory references to the president and the war effort, then hoped that he would be arrested under Burnside's order, thus gaining popular sympathy. Arrested at his home at 2 a.m., 5 May, by a company of troops, he was taken to Burnside's Cincinnati headquarters, tried by a military court 6-7 May, denied a writ of habeas corpus, and sentenced to 2 years' confinement in a military prison. Following a 19 May cabinet meeting, President Lincoln commuted Vallandigham's sentence to banishment to the Confederacy. On 26 May the Ohioan was taken to Confederates south of Murfreesboro, Tenn., and there entered Southern lines. Outraged at his treatment, by a vote of 411 -11 state Democrats nominated Vallandigham for governor at their 11 June convention.

daswig · 10-29-2004, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locobot

Not sure I understand your Julius Caesar-Abe Lincoln analogy. Are you saying that had he lived Lincoln would have declared himself emperor for life? I don't really see that in his personality. It's funny that you feel the need to assassinate our first Republican's character. You're not one of those "the South really won" people are you? Because the South got their asses collectively kicked in the civil war, even with the greatest American general, Robert E. Lee, commanding their army.

Lincoln never had a need to declare himself dictator for life. Remember, this was well before there was a 2 term limit on holding the presidency, which came about after FDR. As for "The South really won", well, that's debatable. Yes, the North won militarily. Yes, the slaves were freed (not that slavery was the reason for the Civil War; it wasn't, since under Scott v. Sanford, slavery as an institution was preserved by the courts). But if you look at what happened after Reconstruction, the South did indeed manage to preserve much of their way of life for many years by replacing slavery with Jim Crow. Much of what they lost militarily, they regained politically, and fairly well abrogated the equal protection guarantees under the 14th Amendment until the 1960's, and the "States Rights" argument persists to this day (for example, Kerry's position on gay marriage and Dean's position on gun control were States Rights arguments.) Does that count as a "win"? I dunno.

daswig · 10-29-2004, 12:19 PM

If I had to pick just one American as the "Greatest American", I'd have to go with Teddy Roosevelt. He turned the US from a provincial power into a world power, and did it while fighting corruption at all levels and not violating the Constitution.

Stompy · 10-29-2004, 12:22 PM

George W. Bush

1. He's the most honest and up front president we've had in the past 30 years.
2. He got rid of Saddam. This is a good thing because Saddam was about to create weapons of mass destruction to use against those who love freedom.
3. The war on terror will totally eradicate all freedom-haters across the globe.

Re: 2 and 3, I love my freedom. I don't want people to hate me because I'm free! I don't want to die by a WMD!

4. He has a clear and concise plan for everything. These can be viewed at http://www.georgewbush.com/

If that isn't the greatest american, then I don't know what is!

dksuddeth · 10-29-2004, 12:39 PM

THIS is why I wouldn't consider GW Bush one of the greatest americans.

from the article: In an act that foreshadowed the future Bush II administration's astonishing usurpation of liberties, the Bush owners created the Arlington Sports Facility Development Authority. The Development Authority was granted the right to issue bonds along with the ominous power of eminent domain. This unnecessarily granted power was immediately abused as the Development Authority condemned 12.7 prime real estate acres adjacent to the construction site that was situated near Six Flags Amusement Park. Eminent domain was only enforced after the owners refused the Development Authority's low-ball bid of $817,220. This outrage prompted a court case in which the jury awarded the landowners heirs $7.2 million for the purchase cost of the land plus interest.

Stompy · 10-29-2004, 12:58 PM

Yeah but... he's protecting us from the freedom-haters! Isn't it important that you keep your freedom?!

dksuddeth · 10-29-2004, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

Yeah but... he's protecting us from the freedom-haters! Isn't it important that you keep your freedom?!

I'd also like to keep my property.

Stompy · 10-29-2004, 01:07 PM

(I know, I was being sarcastic

)

dksuddeth · 10-29-2004, 01:14 PM

gotcha,

Sun Tzu · 10-29-2004, 01:15 PM

Homer Simpson?????

Thats what the world thinks?? I dont know whether I should be laughing or disturbed.

My vote goes for Neil Armstrong.

Coppertop · 10-29-2004, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Homer Simpson?????

Thats what the world thinks?? I dont know whether I should be laughing or disturbed.

My vote goes for Neil Armstrong.

Well, Homer certainly represents America.

Mephisto2 · 10-29-2004, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daswig

(pulling out my big honkin book of Lincoln quotes)

Here's one for you, Mephisto...

"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged."

I think you're misunderstanding this. If Kerry and Fonda were traitors, as you have repeatedly stated, then so was Vallandigham. You can't have it both ways.

Quote:

What's more interesting is that he actually carried through on it, having an Ohio Congressman named Vallandigham arrested, tried by a military tribunal, stripped of his citizenship, and deported.

Exactly as you have suggested for Kerry and Fonda. I can't remember, but I think you even went so far as to suggest hanging.

With regards to Lincoln's position on slavery, there have been literally hundreds of books written on the man and many on this specific subject.

Just two examples.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

If you want to use quotations from Lincoln on slavery, how about these?

Quote:

Resolutions upon the subject of domestic slavery having passed both branches of the General Assembly at its present session, the undersigned hereby protest against the passage of the same.
They believe that the institution of slavery is founded on both injustice and bad policy; but that the promulgation of abolition doctrines tends rather to increase than to abate its evils.
They believe that the Congress of the United States has no power, under the constitution, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the different States.
They believe that the Congress of the United States has the power, under the constitution, to abolish slavery in the District of Columbia; but that that power ought not to be exercised unless at the request of the people of said District.
The difference between these opinions and those contained in the said resolutions, is their reason for entering this protest."

Dan Stone,
A. Lincoln,
Representatives from the county of Sangamon

and

Quote:

You know I dislike slavery; and you fully admit the abstract wrong of it. So far there is no cause of difference. But you say that sooner than yield your legal right to the slave -- especially at the bidding of those who are not themselves interested, you would see the Union dissolved. I am not aware that any one is bidding you to yield that right; very certainly I am not. I leave that matter entirely to yourself. I also acknowledge your rights and my obligations, under the constitution, in regard to your slaves. I confess I hate to see the poor creatures hunted down, and caught, and carried back to their stripes, and unrewarded toils; but I bite my lip and keep quiet. In 1841 you and I had together a tedious low-water trip, on a Steam Boat from Louisville to St. Louis. You may remember, as I well do, that from Louisville to the mouth of the Ohio there were, on board, ten or a dozen slaves, shackled together with irons. That sight was a continual torment to me; and I see something like it every time I touch the Ohio, or any other slave-border. It is hardly fair to you to assume, that I have no interest in a thing which has, and continually exercises, the power of making me miserable. You ought rather to appreciate how much the great body of the Northern people do crucify their feelings, in order to maintain their loyalty to the constitution and the Union.

I do oppose the extension of slavery, because my judgment and feelings so prompt me; and I am under no obligation to the contrary.

Quote:

If A. can prove, however conclusively, that he may, of right, enslave B. -- why may not B. snatch the same argument, and prove equally, that he may enslave A?--

You say A. is white, and B. is black. It is color, then; the lighter, having the right to enslave the darker? Take care. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet, with a fairer skin than your own.

You do not mean color exactly?--You mean the whites are intellectually the superiors of the blacks, and, therefore have the right to enslave them? Take care again. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet, with an intellect superior to your own.

But, say you, it is a question of interest; and, if you can make it your interest, you have the right to enslave another. Very well. And if he can make it his interest, he has the right to enslave you.

Quote:

I think Slavery is wrong, morally, and politically. I desire that it should be no further spread in these United States, and I should not object if it should gradually terminate in the whole Union.

Quote:

I do not perceive how I can express myself, more plainly, than I have done in the foregoing extracts. In four of them I have expressly disclaimed all intention to bring about social and political equality between the white and black races, and, in all the rest, I have done the same thing by clear implication.

I have made it equally plain that I think the negro is included in the word "men" used in the Declaration of Independence.

I believe the declara[tion] that "all men are created equal" is the great fundamental principle upon which our free institutions rest; that negro slavery is violative of that principle; but that, by our frame of government, that principle has not been made one of legal obligation; that by our frame of government, the States which have slavery are to retain it, or surrender it at their own pleasure; and that all others -- individuals, free-states and national government -- are constitutionally bound to leave them alone about it.

I believe our government was thus framed because of the necessity springing from the actual presence of slavery, when it was framed.

That such necessity does not exist in the teritories[sic], where slavery is not present.

...It does not follow that social and political equality between whites and blacks, must be incorporated, because slavery must not.

Quote:

I do not wish to be misunderstood upon this subject of slavery in this country. I suppose it may long exist, and perhaps the best way for it to come to an end peaceably is for it to exist for a length of time. But I say that the spread and strengthening and perpetuation of it is an entirely different proposition. There we should in every way resist it as a wrong, treating it as a wrong, with the fixed idea that it must and will come to an end.

I could go on and on.

I think you need to read that book of Lincoln quotations a bit more carefully.

Mr Mephisto

MSD · 10-29-2004, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

It could also be argued that he [Kennedy] prevented it by blockading russian missiles to cuba.

Kennedy ordered the ships to fire to enforce the blockade. Cuban commanders were authorized to launch in that event. Khrushchev ordered the ships to turn away, thereby averting war. Cuba already had missiles. They were operational.

What about Henry Ford?

The guy who helped to finance Hitler's rise to power, donated $40,000 (not adjusted for inflation) to print German translations of anti-semitic pamphlets, kept his Grand Cross of the Order of the German Eagle despite the protests of Jewish froups like the ADL until he died in 1947, and owned a newspaper that published such pieces fo propaganda as The International Jew and The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion? That guy was a great American?

bling · 10-29-2004, 11:28 PM

It seems like all the "great" American's have skeletons either in their closet or hanging on their front porch.

Except Grand Master Flash.

hammer4all · 10-29-2004, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coppertop

Or how about:

"... arguably the most important intellectual alive." -NY Times

I would like to second that nomination.

dksuddeth · 10-30-2004, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

Kennedy ordered the ships to fire to enforce the blockade. Cuban commanders were authorized to launch in that event. Khrushchev ordered the ships to turn away, thereby averting war. Cuba already had missiles. They were operational.

It was that or allow cuba to have even MORE missiles, instead it forced russia to remove the ones that were there.

flstf · 10-30-2004, 09:10 AM

Wow, this thread started out asking for Great Americans and almost every one that folks listed has been trashed by others. I guess it goes to show how difficult it is to live a public life and not have held some beliefs that seem so politically incorrect in modern times. No matter how progressive and bold thay may have been in their time.

So I guess I'll change my vote to Harley and Davidson, who started the company that makes the machine that gives me so much pleasure today, LOL.

dksuddeth · 10-30-2004, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

So I guess I'll change my vote to Harley and Davidson, who started the company that makes the machine that gives me so much pleasure today, LOL.

damn fine idea. I'm changing mine to Harley and Davidson also.

Clark · 10-30-2004, 08:16 PM

I do not know his name but the greatest American was the son of an immigrant who worked hard his whole life and brought is family to the next level his children were the first in there family to graduate collage and they (the children) made shore to pass on the values of there father that served them so well.

All the people discussed so far were grate leaders and athletes but any truly grate American will always be anonymous that is the American way.

Edit: I could have the gender all wrong but the piont stands.

Ustwo · 10-30-2004, 08:38 PM

A big part of the issue is what makes someone 'Great'.

Were they a Great American because without them America would have failed as a nation?
or were they are Great American because they embodied the American Ideal?

For the first, it would have to be Abraham Lincoln. While any of the founding fathers also fall into this category, Lincoln faced the first real challenge where if he failed the US would cease to exist as the US.

For the second, it would be Teddy Roosevelt. He was everything an American should be, his life couldn't have been written any more 'American' then it was.

Ustwo · 10-30-2004, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark

I do not know his name but the greatest American was the son of an immigrant who worked hard his whole life and brought is family to the next level his children were the first in there family to graduate collage and they (the children) made shore to pass on the values of there father that served them so well.

All the people discussed so far were grate leaders and athletes but any truly grate American will always be anonymous that is the American way.

Edit: I could have the gender all wrong but the piont stands.

Thats what great about America.

But if being Great means being 'uncommonly good' then the people you speak of, who number in the millions do not count, they are average, and luckly in the US average is pretty damn good compared to most.

SecretMethod70 · 10-30-2004, 08:47 PM

not to be cliche, but Martin Luther King Jr.

As far as an inventor-type person, by far Nikola Tesla. He's the most underrated inventor in history as far as I'm concerned, and 1000x more important than Edison when it comes to electricity. If people had listened to him more we would have advanced much faster in electrical technology and safety.

As for the Lincoln debate, he was a great man and president, yes. I do agree with this. He learned over time to control his temper in a manner very few do. However, he was not the great president the myth makes him out to be. One must keep in mind that due to the circumstances of the civil war he pretty much had carte blanche to do whatever he wanted with the government.

Paradise Lost · 10-30-2004, 09:21 PM

I can't believe only one person here said Thomas Jefferson, you people are crazy! I remember
reading a quote recently about when one of our Presidents gathered 40-some Nobel Prize
laureates at the White House, and remarked that the White House had never had as many
brilliant minds in it at one time than it did right now, with the possible exception of when
Thomas Jefferson worked alone.

The guy was a Jack of All Trades, but was more than likely a Master of all of those Trades.
The man was not only one of the pre-eminent founding father, but probably loved his
country more than anyone else at the time, and tried his damndest to make it the best
it could be in its early years. Not only that, but the people of France also loved him, being
that he was Ambassador there for many years after the Revolutionary War. Tried many
times to outlaw slavery during his days as a Congressman in the Virginia Congress - among
many of the other things he did for us.

Teddy Roosevelt is a close second. The guy was everything a President should be, and, as
he said, Probably had more fun doing that job than any one else before him, or since.
He was energetic, popular, and did everything in his power to do what he thought was the
best for the country. I think he could have cared less how the nation was scewed, or what
Congress was trying to do, he did what he thought would make the best impact on his
country as a whole. For instance, just look at his devotion to the Nation Forest Service...
Besides, the guy lived in Poland, Ohio most of his early years, and that's just freakin awesome!

Konichiwaneko · 10-30-2004, 10:22 PM

My Personal Hero - American Hero - Oh all Time

Robert E. Lee.

General Lee believe in what was closest to his heart. He fought for his state, his people. He was respected on both sides, to such a degree that even after the war whole lines of union soldiers bow in respect.

General Lee was intelligent, charismatic, and a born leader. He was asked to fight against odds that he eventually couldn't matched, and made something out of it.

He is what I believe America should stand for. You don't have to believe in our government, but believe in our people and fight for them. Our loyalty is to those who we love, and our land. In our happiness others will thrive.

General Lee was a good man, and he along with others like my Father, Abraham Lincoln, Kublai Kahn, and other leaders have my utmost respect.

You don't have to be in the perfect situation, you don't have to be the perfect person, but as long as you try to be as much as you can be, you can be a good man.

Konichiwaneko · 10-30-2004, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

- He was a great leader during the countries most dangerous time.
- He was a politician who accepted he did not represent all Americans, but reached out to try to "save the Union."
- He alone (until US Grant) understood the gravity of the Civil War and what it would take to win it.
Mr Mephisto

Mr. Mephisto, before I start I want to tell you I hold you with the utmost respect and though we don't agree with political views I am honor of your contributions, mostly of the nude variety, to the tfp. I ask you these question not to stir you up only to get a reply.

I notice you put these qualities for President Lincoln, I would like to see how you compare these traits to your political beliefs.

Lets start with this one

- He alone (until US Grant) understood the gravity of the Civil War and what it would take to win it.

I believe General Grants strategy during the war was call "The grinder". Essentially it was pretty much throwing our men, not caring for casualties, to oppress the opponent. I'm sure back then it would be the same as now, people were appalled...yet the strategy worked in the end all history shows us that now. My question to you, would you accept President Bush if he was vindicated at the end, that his strategy that people saw was a huge mess turned out right?

- He was a politician who accepted he did not represent all Americans, but reached out to try to "save the Union."

Lincoln saw the United states as a great whole, not as a disfunctional society. Do you think Senator Kerry's constant berating of our government and it's disfunctional state going to backfire on him? What if he does aquire the president posistion, and in his 4 or 8 years can't fix what he considers broken. Do you think our people would subconciouslly feel that we are a broken society and nothing can fix us?

- He was a great leader during the countries most dangerous time.

President Bush is far from being a great leader, I think both left and right can agree on that. Yet earlier you listed General Grant as an example, and history told us that he was terrible at his job as both general and president yet he got the job done. Do you think that President Bush can once again be vindicated because of this over time?

I know you will give a good answer Mr. Mephisto.

host · 10-31-2004, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

not to be cliche, but Martin Luther King Jr.

As far as an inventor-type person, by far Nikola Tesla. He's the most underrated inventor in history as far as I'm concerned, and 1000x more important than Edison when it comes to electricity. If people had listened to him more we would have advanced much faster in electrical technology and safety.

As for the Lincoln debate, he was a great man and president, yes. I do agree with this. He learned over time to control his temper in a manner very few do. However, he was not the great president the myth makes him out to be. One must keep in mind that due to the circumstances of the civil war he pretty much had carte blanche to do whatever he wanted with the government.

Why do many people admire wartime civilian and military leaders, specifically
generals and politicians, instead of those who impacted our country
through their inventive genius or their humanitarian insight and example?
<a href="http://www.teslascience.org/">Tesla Wardenclyffe Project</a>

Quote:

Question
Do we (you) know more details about Tesla's ideas about and use of electrical currents for healing the human body? Or about helping the body the way he thought he was doing with the treatments he gave himself?

Response
by Margaret Cheney (December 19 postings).....click on this link:
<a href="http://www.pbs.org/tesla/dis/responses.html">http://www.pbs.org/tesla/dis/responses.html</a>
<a href="http://www.pbs.org/tesla/dis/cheney.html">http://www.pbs.org/tesla/dis/cheney.html</a>
Tesla's ideas on medical treatment with electricity are in widespread use today, as in diathermy or deep-heat for injuries, arthritis, etc.; the application of x-ray, microwave and radiowave to destroy cancer cells, and for healing bones and tissues. The magnetic resonance imaging machine (MRI) is measured in Tesla Units. Tesla's idea of bathing in "cold fire" or a low-power therapeutic device, is believed to have a psychosomatic effect beyond the mechanical. (For more on this: Tesla, Man Out of Time, Cheney; Tesla, Master of Lightning, Cheney and Uth.)

More reading on Tesla at PBS website.
<a href="http://www.pbs.org/tesla/res/res_arts.html">http://www.pbs.org/tesla/res/res_arts.html</a>

In his battle against Tesla, Edison fought to preserve his monopoly on the
NY City direct current (DC) power generating and distribution newtork that
his company was building and profiting from. Edison had briefly employed Tesla and had reneged on paying Tesla a promised $50,000 bonus. DC
was an inferior technology because it required bulky copper wires and
heavy transformers to distribute electricity even short distances from power
plants, and offered a much greater risk of electrocution to people in DC electrified homes or businesses. Edison created a smear and disinformation campaign against Tesla and his superior alternating current (AC) power
system design, which included demonstrations where stray animals were
executed by Edison employees using AC current to falsely persuade the
public that AC current was more dangerous. Tesla worked closely with the
Westinghouse company to build powered generators and motors that
displaced and eliminated Edison's DC powered products. Edison intended for
his smear term "westinghoused" to be interchangeable with the word
"electrocuted". <a href="http://physics.about.com/cs/physicists/a/tesla1_4.htm">http://physics.about.com/cs/physicists/a/tesla1_4.htm</a>

superiorrain · 10-31-2004, 04:49 AM

There is no funnier american that Bill Murray. So thats my vote for the greatest American. He has made people laugh all over the world and isn't laughter the most important thing in life. What a gift, i thank you America for producing such talent.

Maveric · 10-31-2004, 05:39 AM

A pioneer in the field of telecommunications, Alexander Graham Bell
aside from antiseptics/medicine which saved mankind, telecommunications has been one of the greatest human achievements to forward mankind's developement...

Maveric · 10-31-2004, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konichiwaneko

My Personal Hero - American Hero - Oh all Time

Robert E. Lee.

You don't have to be in the perfect situation, you don't have to be the perfect person, but as long as you try to be as much as you can be, you can be a good man.

I'm sorry but I see this as flawed logic, imho. It's kinda like saying, Hitler was a "great" man because he was only doing what he thought was best for his country and the world...

just my $.02

jonjon42 · 10-31-2004, 06:16 AM

Gertrude Stein
Mark Twain
Ben Franklin
Orson Wells
Igor Stravinsky (became an American citizen eventually :-D )

ah yes
and tesla is a good name to be on the list too. Art and science deserve high standings on this list of the great Americans.

10-29-2004, 12:22 PM	#54 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	George W. Bush 1. He's the most honest and up front president we've had in the past 30 years. 2. He got rid of Saddam. This is a good thing because Saddam was about to create weapons of mass destruction to use against those who love freedom. 3. The war on terror will totally eradicate all freedom-haters across the globe. Re: 2 and 3, I love my freedom. I don't want people to hate me because I'm free! I don't want to die by a WMD! 4. He has a clear and concise plan for everything. These can be viewed at http://www.georgewbush.com/ If that isn't the greatest american, then I don't know what is! __________________ I love lamp. Last edited by Stompy; 10-29-2004 at 12:24 PM..

10-29-2004, 12:58 PM	#56 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Yeah but... he's protecting us from the freedom-haters! Isn't it important that you keep your freedom?! __________________ I love lamp.

10-29-2004, 01:07 PM	#58 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	(I know, I was being sarcastic ) __________________ I love lamp.

10-29-2004, 01:15 PM	#60 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	Homer Simpson????? Thats what the world thinks?? I dont know whether I should be laughing or disturbed. My vote goes for Neil Armstrong. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

10-30-2004, 08:16 PM	#69 (permalink)
Clark Crazy Location: Pittsburgh	I do not know his name but the greatest American was the son of an immigrant who worked hard his whole life and brought is family to the next level his children were the first in there family to graduate collage and they (the children) made shore to pass on the values of there father that served them so well. All the people discussed so far were grate leaders and athletes but any truly grate American will always be anonymous that is the American way. Edit: I could have the gender all wrong but the piont stands. __________________ Dyslexic please excuse the spelling.

10-28-2004, 03:03 PM	#41 (permalink)
Gatorade Frost Rookie	Al Gore. Inventor of the internet. Free porn. All the time. And because without him the last 4 years wouldn't have been quite as interesting. There's too many Americans that were great to choose just one. Personally I'd take Lincoln off of the list because he was a divider who got shot at the opportune time. JFK's life was too short to really see what would've come out of his presidency and that's something very regrettable. I'd like to say FDR for his leadership during WWII and through the great depression.

10-28-2004, 05:24 PM	#43 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	Too many to mention and no real standout. Maybe FDR - after the great depression, Lincoln - president during our darkest hours, Eisenhower - fantastic post war economic expansion in the 50s. Many of the founding fathers. Don't know how much these guys had to do with the results of the times. But with the exception of the founding fathers, I think the great experiment of American democracy has lasted this long mostly in spite of our leaders and not because of them.

10-29-2004, 12:19 PM	#53 (permalink)
daswig Banned Location: BFE	If I had to pick just one American as the "Greatest American", I'd have to go with Teddy Roosevelt. He turned the US from a provincial power into a world power, and did it while fighting corruption at all levels and not violating the Constitution.

10-29-2004, 12:39 PM	#55 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	THIS is why I wouldn't consider GW Bush one of the greatest americans. from the article: In an act that foreshadowed the future Bush II administration's astonishing usurpation of liberties, the Bush owners created the Arlington Sports Facility Development Authority. The Development Authority was granted the right to issue bonds along with the ominous power of eminent domain. This unnecessarily granted power was immediately abused as the Development Authority condemned 12.7 prime real estate acres adjacent to the construction site that was situated near Six Flags Amusement Park. Eminent domain was only enforced after the owners refused the Development Authority's low-ball bid of $817,220. This outrage prompted a court case in which the jury awarded the landowners heirs $7.2 million for the purchase cost of the land plus interest.

10-29-2004, 01:14 PM	#59 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	gotcha,

10-29-2004, 11:28 PM	#64 (permalink)
bling Banned	It seems like all the "great" American's have skeletons either in their closet or hanging on their front porch. Except Grand Master Flash.

10-30-2004, 09:10 AM	#67 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	Wow, this thread started out asking for Great Americans and almost every one that folks listed has been trashed by others. I guess it goes to show how difficult it is to live a public life and not have held some beliefs that seem so politically incorrect in modern times. No matter how progressive and bold thay may have been in their time. So I guess I'll change my vote to Harley and Davidson, who started the company that makes the machine that gives me so much pleasure today, LOL.

10-30-2004, 08:38 PM	#70 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	A big part of the issue is what makes someone 'Great'. Were they a Great American because without them America would have failed as a nation? or were they are Great American because they embodied the American Ideal? For the first, it would have to be Abraham Lincoln. While any of the founding fathers also fall into this category, Lincoln faced the first real challenge where if he failed the US would cease to exist as the US. For the second, it would be Teddy Roosevelt. He was everything an American should be, his life couldn't have been written any more 'American' then it was. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 10-30-2004 at 08:44 PM..

10-30-2004, 08:47 PM	#72 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	not to be cliche, but Martin Luther King Jr. As far as an inventor-type person, by far Nikola Tesla. He's the most underrated inventor in history as far as I'm concerned, and 1000x more important than Edison when it comes to electricity. If people had listened to him more we would have advanced much faster in electrical technology and safety. As for the Lincoln debate, he was a great man and president, yes. I do agree with this. He learned over time to control his temper in a manner very few do. However, he was not the great president the myth makes him out to be. One must keep in mind that due to the circumstances of the civil war he pretty much had carte blanche to do whatever he wanted with the government. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 10-30-2004 at 08:50 PM..

10-30-2004, 09:21 PM	#73 (permalink)
Paradise Lost "Afternoon everybody." "NORM!" Location: Poland, Ohio // Clarion University of PA.	I can't believe only one person here said Thomas Jefferson, you people are crazy! I remember reading a quote recently about when one of our Presidents gathered 40-some Nobel Prize laureates at the White House, and remarked that the White House had never had as many brilliant minds in it at one time than it did right now, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson worked alone. The guy was a Jack of All Trades, but was more than likely a Master of all of those Trades. The man was not only one of the pre-eminent founding father, but probably loved his country more than anyone else at the time, and tried his damndest to make it the best it could be in its early years. Not only that, but the people of France also loved him, being that he was Ambassador there for many years after the Revolutionary War. Tried many times to outlaw slavery during his days as a Congressman in the Virginia Congress - among many of the other things he did for us. Teddy Roosevelt is a close second. The guy was everything a President should be, and, as he said, Probably had more fun doing that job than any one else before him, or since. He was energetic, popular, and did everything in his power to do what he thought was the best for the country. I think he could have cared less how the nation was scewed, or what Congress was trying to do, he did what he thought would make the best impact on his country as a whole. For instance, just look at his devotion to the Nation Forest Service... Besides, the guy lived in Poland, Ohio most of his early years, and that's just freakin awesome!

10-30-2004, 10:22 PM	#74 (permalink)
Konichiwaneko The Dreaded Pixel Nazi Location: Inside my camera	My Personal Hero - American Hero - Oh all Time Robert E. Lee. General Lee believe in what was closest to his heart. He fought for his state, his people. He was respected on both sides, to such a degree that even after the war whole lines of union soldiers bow in respect. General Lee was intelligent, charismatic, and a born leader. He was asked to fight against odds that he eventually couldn't matched, and made something out of it. He is what I believe America should stand for. You don't have to believe in our government, but believe in our people and fight for them. Our loyalty is to those who we love, and our land. In our happiness others will thrive. General Lee was a good man, and he along with others like my Father, Abraham Lincoln, Kublai Kahn, and other leaders have my utmost respect. You don't have to be in the perfect situation, you don't have to be the perfect person, but as long as you try to be as much as you can be, you can be a good man. __________________ Hesitate. Pull me in. Breath on breath. Skin on skin. Loving deep. Falling fast. All right here. Let this last. Here with our lips locked tight. Baby the time is right for us... to forget about us.

10-31-2004, 04:49 AM	#77 (permalink)
superiorrain Psycho Location: London	There is no funnier american that Bill Murray. So thats my vote for the greatest American. He has made people laugh all over the world and isn't laughter the most important thing in life. What a gift, i thank you America for producing such talent. __________________ "The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible." - Arthur C. Clarke

10-31-2004, 05:39 AM	#78 (permalink)
Maveric Insane Location: Houston, Texas	A pioneer in the field of telecommunications, Alexander Graham Bell aside from antiseptics/medicine which saved mankind, telecommunications has been one of the greatest human achievements to forward mankind's developement...

10-31-2004, 06:16 AM	#80 (permalink)
jonjon42 Psycho Location: inside my own mind	Gertrude Stein Mark Twain Ben Franklin Orson Wells Igor Stravinsky (became an American citizen eventually :-D ) ah yes and tesla is a good name to be on the list too. Art and science deserve high standings on this list of the great Americans. __________________ A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part.... Last edited by jonjon42; 10-31-2004 at 06:18 AM..