Pacifier

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/2813601
Its seems that the try to win the hearts and minds of the iraqi people is doomed, personally I see no chance that he US will "win" this situation. If they strike harder against the insurgents they will betray the idea to "help" the iraqi people since this will only kill more civillians and thus resulting in more hate.
If they stop the attacks the insurgents will become stronger. If the go in "personal" instead of dropping bombs they will loose more soldiers which will be desastrous to the "homefront"

What do you think? Is there still a way for the US to "win" the haerst and minds of the iraqi people?

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Willravel

The biggest thing that will help us (America and it's people) to enter back into the good graces and a faborable opinion in the world will be both time, and our actions speaking louder than words. We clearly have a severe problem with lies and half truths. Weapons of mass destruction, conections between the (former) Iraqi government and the attacks on September 11th are things that I wish we could take back, but we can't. Our government lied. Many people are being and have been hurt by those lies. Our government needs to take responsibility for their actions and apologize to everyone who was hurt by their decision. I know this will not bring those wrongly dead back to life, but we have to start somewhere. The old way that governments worked, imperialistic, self serving, untrustworthy, is over. This world requires true allies and true moral and ethical leadership. Only one man in the 9/11 commision actually apologized for their obvious failing. We need more of this, and less 'axis of evil' talk that misleads the hearts and minds of the American people. The citizens of Iraq deserve their freedom, and I understand that Saddam is a very disturbed individual who did not deserve to rule anything. Now, unfortunatally, we have anti-American soldiers hiding among civilians. People who disregard the rules, be they rules of engagement, or rules of morality, have the advantage.
We won the Cold War. We had opratives in every branch of the Russian government and spies everywhere getting intillegence on everything. We were at the top of our game. Now the world has changed. Russia is actually one of our allies. Our only true threat is independant factions and terrorist groups. These work in completly different ways than governments. We need to adapt. We need to have our opritives working secretly in cells and gathering intillegence just as they did back in the Cold War. We had a serious hand in the creation of several terrorist groups. We are responsible.
Iraq was obviously a mistake. It felt like Waco all over again. In Waco they originally went there to serve a subpena. Then the ATF showed up with armed forces. They exchanged fire and lost, then the FBI came there and we all know what happened next. They said they were there to 'rescue the children'. How noble. Now in Iraq, we went there originally to get the weapons of mass destruction. None there! Now we say we went there to free the Iraqi people.
This has to stop.

powerclown

Please.

War Casualties
First World War (1914-18): 15,000,000
Russian Civil War (1917-22): 9,000,000
Second World War (1937-45): 55,000,000
Korean War (1950-53): 2,800,000
Second Indochina War, aka Vietnam (1960-75): 3,500,000 (36,725 civilians assassinated by VC/NVA, 1957-72)
Cambodia, Khmer Rouge (1975-1978): 1,650,000
Afghanistan, Soviets vs. Mujahideen (1979-2001): 1,800,000
Iran-Iraq War (1980-88): 1,000,000
Etc..etc..etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...

This isn't a video game, THIS IS WAR.
You want war stats, knock yourself out. The Americans could turn the entire country into a flat sheet of glass in 72 hours. Billions have been spent developing precision weapons to avoid killing civilians. Militarily speaking, this conflict is by far the most humane of any war ever waged.

I see no point in this thread, other than to incite.

cthulu23

I don't know if you bothered to read the original post in it's entirety, but it centers on the difficulty of winning the conflict while simultaneously capturing the hearts and minds of Iraqis. Sure, we could level the country but that doesn't quite jibe with our stated goal of bringing democracy to the people, does it? The question is how to win the tactical war without losing the people. The chance of us figuring out this conumdrum are greatly reduced if we can't speak openly about the issues without being accused of inciting...something. What was this thread supposed to be inciting anyway?

BTW, the wars that you cite as evidence of the "humanity" of the Iraq conflict were not exactly low key affairs. In fact, they were some of the most bloody conflicts in history. How about we compare the Iraq invasion with the invasion of Grenada or Panama? I know that that doesn't really mean anything, but neither does comparing the Iraq conflict with World War II.

Ustwo

Don't care.

First I don't trust the stats, we got the same type of stats from afganistan, it turns out those stats were bullshit.

Secondly even if they are true, they are the best anyone can do under the circumstances.

We would have to do this for centuries to come close to Saddam like numbers.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

cthulu23

Did you read the original post? The question at hand is how to succeed tactically while not alienating Iraqi citizens. Why do I get a feeling of deja vu?

DelayedReaction

How do you suceed tactically? You start by suceeding strategically. Close off the borders and prevent foreign fighters from entering Iraq to join the insurgency. As it stands now, Iraq is pretty much a live-fire excercise for terrorists who want to train against Americans. Attacking the insurgents won't do anything until you stem off the supply of fresh opponents.

Next, have the Iraqi's do the actual sweeps. It's their country, let them handle it. Americans can provide tactical support and direction, but we should not be the ones calling the shots here. This effort should be under Iraqi control, with Americans placing bombs as requested but not acting on their own. If you're in someone's house and they have a bug crawling across the carpet, you don't squish it and stain the rug. You ask them what they want to do with it, and let them do their own thing.

We're in a war without a goal, and it's killing us. America needs to establish its priorities, accomplish those goals, and move on.

__________________
If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

Ustwo

And those goals are?

Its a rather sweeping statement to say we don't have a goal. We all like to be armchair generals.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

onetime2

Interesting that these statistics can't account for how many deaths were Iraqi policemen or national guard but can "accurately" account for how many were "innocent civilians". Is this a red flag that bothers anyone else?

__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

cthulu23

The numbers come from the interim Iraqi government who you can't exactly accuse them of wanting to smear the war effort altough they probably do want to differentiate themselves from the Americans. Perhaps they are suspicious, but arguing over body counts isn't the intended effect of the post. Do you have any insights into winning the hearts of the Iraqis?

powerclown

The anti-american crowd could care less. Their agenda is failure, surrender, jealousy, cowardice, hopelessness. Its all about American Imperialism and its goal of World Domination if you ask them. Imagine what the world would be like if Russia were the global superpower, after what Putin just did in his own country. Applying the mindset of this guy on a worldwide scale would be something to fret about. Imagine if they went into Iraq; it would be Grozny to the 50th power. All these figures about civilian deaths will be forgotten very quickly as soon as a stable govenment is in place over there. This is the price of freedom, of democracy.

Ustwo

Well you see.....er.....well....ummmm......ya.....er....hey look its Elvis!

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

cthulu23

You guys are funny....rather than discuss the realities of the conflict, including how to win there, you just bash the numbers from the Iraqi government (who the US government approved, mind you), generalize about anti-war sentiment and intimate that everythings fine. I suppose that on topic posting requires actually reading the first post in it's entirety rather than just the title.

Pacifier

Yeah, like cthulu said the question is

"What do you think? Is there still a way for the US to "win" the hearts and minds of the iraqi people?

Fact is: Civillians are dying and with every civilian dying this mission gets harder.
one of the lastest attacks on Falluja

All you do is dodging...as usual

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

irateplatypus

also, i can't imagine that they are able to distinguish between civilians and insurgents. aren't they often one in the same? what would be the difference? i guess you could argue that a foreigner entering the country to cause trouble would be an insurgent and not a civilian... but i'm also doubting the records being kept and the research done into these death's details are of high quality.

how to win the hearts and minds of the iraqi people? well, quite honestly, i don't know if there is much we can do that we aren't doing militarily. the only thing i can think of is for the President or one of our large national charitable organizations to really get the ball rolling for private contributions to the iraqi people. if the regular joe-hummus-dish iraqi got basic school supplies for their kids from regular joe-six-pack american... that may help to build a bridge and rapport with them.

but i think we should keep in mind that just because people are being killed and the situation appears to be tenuous doesn't mean that we aren't doing things right. perhaps the situation is arranged that the best of all possible outcomes to this point involves a thousand deaths. we're trying to do something very expensive, dramatic, and dangerous over there. sometimes there are high prices to be paid. you may argue whether or not something is worthy of purchase, but if you're committed to buying it you cannot waiver in paying the debt.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Ustwo

Being an evil general of course we can't trust him, but we can trust our unbiased journalists

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Pacifier

What has that article to do with the topic or the question?

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Ustwo

Everything.

What I'm saying is the topic in question is fruitless. Its part of the self inflicted doubt and undermining of the US efforts in Iraq.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

splck

With the way your government has handled this whole debacle, I can't see Americans ever winning the hearts and minds of Iraqi's.

__________________
nice line eh?

powerclown

Done feeding the Troll.

roachboy

so....thinking in a critical manner about bush's war is undermining "our" efforts in iraq?

in what way exactly?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

While the source of the statistics is a bit suspect, is it really that hard to imagine that the stats are close to true? We know how bad it is over there; biased reporters or not. "Is there still a way for the US to "win" the [hearts] and minds of the iraqi people?" is the question to be answered here. Whether the specifics of what was said is true of not, we know many innocent Iraqi citizens are dying. There are acceptable losses, I suppose, but where is the limit of 'acceptable'? 3,487 is the number given. Let's say, for arguments sake, that number was exagerated by a factor of 2. Let's say there were 1,743 (rounding down of course) Iraqi deaths total since our attack. Is that really acceptable? Is it okay for us to liberate those people at the cost of 1,743 of their own innocent citizens lives? It is one thing for a country to decide in itself to overthow it's government, but it's quite another to go into a country and liberate it and then try to give them a government of our own choosing. This stinks of cold war thinking. This stinks of Vietnam and Korea. There's no arguing with those facts.

onetime2

And how exactly do you "know" how bad it is over there? Are you there or are you basing your belief on the reports that we see?


Chtulu23, my point about the statistics was not that they were biased or a "smear" but that if they can't account for Iraqi police and national guard in those statistics how can you or anyone else possibly think they are accurate enough to make any sort of analysis?

__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

Ustwo

Nope, but what I see is left wing propaganda attempting to turn Iraq into another Vietnam not thinking in a critical manner.

Very little thinking, a lot of lying, whining, and undermining.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

cthulu23

"Pot, meet kettle."

BTW, did you see my post in an earlier thread that revealed that your sig is not an actual Kerry quote? You might want to change it.

roachboy

so you do not intend to answer the question.
fine.

no doubt, you imagine there to be some fifth column working to sap america's precious bodily fluids at the origin of all critique of the iraq operations...

the "patriotic" thing to do is suspend all judgement and support without reservation whatever war that is undertaken--so long as it is undertaken by a republican--regardless of quibbles like legality and ethics and planning.

because what wins conflicts is a chipper and upbeat populace, yes?
channelling Energy directly to "our boys" far away through--well what--the power of a collective intellectual abdication?
united behind the national mission embodied by the figure of the Leader.
resolute in the face of a ubiquitous yet invisible Enemy.
works every time.

the steady stream of reports from iraq about the numbers of civilians killed by american operations----5 killed, 45 wounded, including women and children this morning, in sadr city, for example. between 12-15,000 casualties amongst iraqis so far----no matter--the body count is an index of the righteousness of the Cause, no?

works out just fine in the western films that seem to operate as template for thinking about the war in iraq: the righteousness of the Hero who embodies the Good (the white hat) is confirmed by the large numbers of Other People killed.
it is an end in itself.
it never has to stop.
there are no noncombattants.
all deaths are allegory.

the "war on terror" somehow being fought in a place irrelevant to it, is confirmed in its righteousness by piles of bodies far away.

quite an ideology you have there, ustwo.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

cthulu23

And you would have a point if we were arguing over body counts in this thread, but the actual numbers of civilian dead are incidental in this case. The question is how do you win the hearts and minds of Iraqis while simultaneously defeating a well-entrenched guerilla opponent. We are losing cities and a hard push will be required to retake them. If, during this push, there are scores of civilians killed we will be inadvertantly recruiting for the insurgents. This is a delicate matter that deserves some consideration and goes well beyond partisan propaganda regardless of the complaints of some.