Dirty Deeds - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Ustwo · 09-11-2004, 06:52 PM

Right now I’d say it’s a 75% chance the ‘Bush documents’ which CBS ran are fakes. They may still be true, but the number of people directly involved who have come out and said they are false seems to be growing. Maybe they are authentic, and I have not ruled that out yet, but lets pretend they are in fact forgeries.

There is a report out that the documents came from the DNC to Kerry’s campaign who passed them on to CBS. Lets assume this is hypothetically true as well for arguments sake.

Now if it were to come out that the DNC knew these were forgeries and attempted to set up Bush would you still vote for Kerry?

I’m asking this not so much as a partisan thing, just because it is a current controversy.

As such lets say the Bush admin is behind the investigation into Kerry’s medals and is using the pentagon to make him look bad. Would you still vote for Bush? (For the 5 TFP politics readers who are voting for Bush

)

Journeyman · 09-11-2004, 07:56 PM

Number of what? I count two people who claim the document is false: The son, and the wife of the dead man who wrote them up. I haven't kept up on it for the past couple days, so who else is calling it a forgery?

Rekna · 09-11-2004, 08:07 PM

this is what is called a push poll

Ustwo · 09-11-2004, 08:11 PM

Check out da thread.....

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=68583

Rekna · 09-11-2004, 08:15 PM

Yes and CBS stands by the documents as real citing they have many sources. So don't assume they are fake or even worse assume they were planted. This poll is simalar to the polls where they asked people if they would support max clealand if they knew he had a colored child (which he did he adopted it not sex out of wedlock which is what they implied).

irateplatypus · 09-11-2004, 08:15 PM

it depends... are they done dirt cheap?

Ustwo · 09-11-2004, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

this is what is called a push poll

Nice try but nope. I'm not trying to plant the idea of that Kerry is deceptive, and in fact I doubt he had any idea they were forgeries if in fact they were. Since this is an issue well known to anyone who reads TFP politics they would not be uninformed and swayed.

Now if I did such a poll with people who never heard of this before, then perhaps it would qualify as a push poll.

Rekna · 09-11-2004, 08:18 PM

push polling isn't just planting of ideas it is also asking slanted questions.

Ustwo · 09-11-2004, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

push polling isn't just planting of ideas it is also asking slanted questions.

And where is the slant?

Rekna · 09-11-2004, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Right now I’d say it’s a 75% chance the ‘Bush documents’ which CBS ran are fakes. They may still be true, but the number of people directly involved who have come out and said they are false seems to be growing. Maybe they are authentic, and I have not ruled that out yet, but lets pretend they are in fact forgeries.

There is a report out that the documents came from the DNC to Kerry’s campaign who passed them on to CBS. Lets assume this is hypothetically true as well for arguments sake.

Now if it were to come out that the DNC knew these were forgeries and attempted to set up Bush would you still vote for Kerry?

looks pretty slanted to me. Not to mention you come out and say that the documents are more than likely faked. Now lets look at your other question

Quote:

As such lets say the Bush admin is behind the investigation into Kerry’s medals and is using the pentagon to make him look bad. Would you still vote for Bush? (For the 5 TFP politics readers who are voting for Bush )

You phrase this one which much less assertedness then the first. You phrase the first like it is true.

Journeyman · 09-11-2004, 08:29 PM

Quote:

but lets pretend they are in fact forgeries.

There is a report out that the documents came from the DNC to Kerry’s campaign who passed them on to CBS. Lets assume this is hypothetically true as well for arguments sake.

Now if it were to come out that the DNC knew these were forgeries and attempted to set up Bush would you still vote for Kerry?

Quote:

And where is the slant?

Right there.

Ustwo · 09-11-2004, 08:42 PM

If the latest flap was Bush maybe faking something I'd have been happy to talk about that. The only one I could think of that directly involved Bush and might be 'improper' was the medal thing. I could have stated it more but the facts don't have a good lead up to do so.

An independent group who has in the past sued both Republicans and Democrats, including Dick Cheney has asked for an official investigation of Kerry's medals he displays on his web site. No one outside of the Kerry campaign has any suspicions this request came from the White House.

That just doesn't quite do it, nor is 'slanting' the intent of what the poll implies, which I will talk about after its been up a bit longer. In fact a push poll would interfere with what is being looked at.

Since I am asking not for the undecided but those who support a candidate (and I should have included a I support neither in retrospect) I doubt we will see an effect on the results.

Lebell · 09-11-2004, 08:42 PM

Seems to me that anyone who doesn't want to participate in Ustwo's poll doesn't have to.

OpieCunningham · 09-11-2004, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

You phrase this one which much less assertedness then the first. You phrase the first like it is true.

Additionally, it has already been demonstrated that government agencies operated by Bush appointees have used taxpayers money to launch investigations into reviews of Kerry's initiatives. <a href="http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:LN7_RHHBH84J:www.citizensforethics.org/activities/20040615/ExhibitY.pdf+%22The+Treasury+tapped+civil+servants+to+calculate+the+cost+of+%22&hl=en" target=_blank>The Treasury Dept. analyzed Kerry's economic plan and painted it in a bad light</a>. There is only one reason they would do that and it is not because Bush was contemplating the implementation of Kerry's economic plan.

So while one 'what if' scenario presented by Ustwo is completely hypothetical, the other has previous experience to support it's probability.

OpieCunningham · 09-11-2004, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebell

Seems to me that anyone who doesn't want to participate in Ustwo's poll doesn't have to.

Ah. Good point. I will remember that the next time I start a thread.

pan6467 · 09-11-2004, 08:59 PM

Could it be..... just a wild guess and a hypothetical because all is fair in love, war and now obviously politics.....

That someone very close to the family set CBS up so that it would come out as a forgery and help Bush? After all, the source had to be close to the family to get into this guy's private files.

Wouldn't be the first time the press were used for this type of setup. Captain Jinks and Howard Stern used to do it all the time..... of course when Stern did it it was humorous. This would just be a sick way to destroy a news organization's credibility.

View Poll Results: Who would you support?
(Kerry supporters) I would still vote for Kerry	9	52.94%
(Kerry supporters) I would not vote for Kerry or Bush	2	11.76%
(Kerry supporters) I would vote for Bush	0	0%
(Bush supporters) I would still vote for Bush	5	29.41%
(Bush supporters) I would not vote for Bush or Kerry	0	0%
(Bush supporters) I would vote for Kerry	1	5.88%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

09-11-2004, 06:52 PM	#1 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Dirty Deeds Right now I’d say it’s a 75% chance the ‘Bush documents’ which CBS ran are fakes. They may still be true, but the number of people directly involved who have come out and said they are false seems to be growing. Maybe they are authentic, and I have not ruled that out yet, but lets pretend they are in fact forgeries. There is a report out that the documents came from the DNC to Kerry’s campaign who passed them on to CBS. Lets assume this is hypothetically true as well for arguments sake. Now if it were to come out that the DNC knew these were forgeries and attempted to set up Bush would you still vote for Kerry? I’m asking this not so much as a partisan thing, just because it is a current controversy. As such lets say the Bush admin is behind the investigation into Kerry’s medals and is using the pentagon to make him look bad. Would you still vote for Bush? (For the 5 TFP politics readers who are voting for Bush ) __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 09-11-2004 at 06:58 PM..

09-11-2004, 08:11 PM	#4 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Check out da thread..... http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=68583 __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-11-2004, 08:15 PM	#6 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	it depends... are they done dirt cheap? __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

09-11-2004, 08:42 PM	#12 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	If the latest flap was Bush maybe faking something I'd have been happy to talk about that. The only one I could think of that directly involved Bush and might be 'improper' was the medal thing. I could have stated it more but the facts don't have a good lead up to do so. An independent group who has in the past sued both Republicans and Democrats, including Dick Cheney has asked for an official investigation of Kerry's medals he displays on his web site. No one outside of the Kerry campaign has any suspicions this request came from the White House. That just doesn't quite do it, nor is 'slanting' the intent of what the poll implies, which I will talk about after its been up a bit longer. In fact a push poll would interfere with what is being looked at. Since I am asking not for the undecided but those who support a candidate (and I should have included a I support neither in retrospect) I doubt we will see an effect on the results. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 09-11-2004 at 08:44 PM..

09-11-2004, 07:56 PM	#2 (permalink)
Journeyman Like John Goodman, but not. Location: SFBA, California	Number of what? I count two people who claim the document is false: The son, and the wife of the dead man who wrote them up. I haven't kept up on it for the past couple days, so who else is calling it a forgery?

09-11-2004, 08:07 PM	#3 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	this is what is called a push poll

09-11-2004, 08:15 PM	#5 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Yes and CBS stands by the documents as real citing they have many sources. So don't assume they are fake or even worse assume they were planted. This poll is simalar to the polls where they asked people if they would support max clealand if they knew he had a colored child (which he did he adopted it not sex out of wedlock which is what they implied).

09-11-2004, 08:18 PM	#8 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	push polling isn't just planting of ideas it is also asking slanted questions.

09-11-2004, 08:42 PM	#13 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Seems to me that anyone who doesn't want to participate in Ustwo's poll doesn't have to. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-11-2004, 08:59 PM	#16 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Could it be..... just a wild guess and a hypothetical because all is fair in love, war and now obviously politics..... That someone very close to the family set CBS up so that it would come out as a forgery and help Bush? After all, the source had to be close to the family to get into this guy's private files. Wouldn't be the first time the press were used for this type of setup. Captain Jinks and Howard Stern used to do it all the time..... of course when Stern did it it was humorous. This would just be a sick way to destroy a news organization's credibility. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"