Locobot

The documents do appear false, but is anyone actually arguing that Bush served and fulfilled his duty? Or that he didn't avoid active duty during a war that he supported? I didn't see the CBS report, but I understand that they treated the documents with skepticism. It seems that CBS jumped the gun in order to be the first to report this. CBS deserves criticism, but it doesn't completely negate the network's ability to report news. If these papers are false it means that Bush's military record is slightly less nefarious. Congratulations to you conservatives who investigated further. It's unfortunate that you can't display the same level of cognizance and skepticism with Fox news, the Drudge Report, or Rush Limbaugh. You win the battle but lose the war.

Diamond

How dare you question Dan Rather, the liberal spewing deity that he is!!!

charms

Mostly a lurker, and certainly not a Bush fan. I also have some limited experience with typesetting and can assure you that it is extremely difficult to create identical documents using different technologies, even deliberately. Despite the fact that they are supposed to be, fonts are not constant. The Times New Roman of 1931 is not the TNR of 1972 is not the TNR of 2004.

The important issue here is why a respected news organization refuses to acknowledge the valid criticisms coming from a growing number of experts. Consider that the individual who supposedly validated the documents does not stand by the story, nor do any of the family members closest to Killian who is, conveniently, dead.

The question of forgeries obviously needs to be validated, but for now the burden clearly lies upon CBS. Liberal bloggers have frantically attempted to...ahem, 'justify' the document by asking us to:

a) assume it is merely coincidental that hasty attempts to reproduce the documents using MSWord's default settings generated documents nearly indistinguishable from the CBS documents which have been copied, faxed, scanned, downloaded, and reprinted.

b) believe that an individual, who by his own family's testimony never typed, happened to assemble a variety of limitedly available and unrelated technologies generally only known to typographic professionals to create four casual memos which then sat undisturbed in hidden files for 32 years until the week after the RNC.

Others reply with the argument that the documents validity is irrelevant because they somehow represent a larger truth. This fatuous line of thinking is disturbing, not to mention hypocritical when invoked for the purpose of criticizing - of all people - Bush.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that Rather has been either recklessly negligent or deviously dishonest, yet he continues to even consider the possiblility. Yet CBS and the Boston Globe have closed ranks and continued to mislead, at this point apparently deliberately. Furthermore, they refuse to provide any further proof or independent examination asking us to essentially "take their word for it."

The question is vitally important. The government can, and will, lie to the public. The media is the arbiter of truth and this issue goes far beyond bias to the even more fundamental issue of integrity.

smooth

CBS is putting a slew of document experts verifying the documents veracity.

They firmly stand by their assertion the documents are real. This has little, if anything, to do with Rather.

A little over two years ago, the administration pissed off the mainstream media and got a heap of bad commentary for it. It looks like the same thing will occur. This could be a fatal error for the Bush admin.

If nothing else, the mainstream media is extremely fucking powerful and don't like to be called a bunch of propagandists--regardless of the documents' truth value. They don't like the admin's actions and lack of responses to them (which are extremely lacking, btw) and it shows in the reporting style.

For me personally, I'm going to take the word of people on the screen over the word of someone who spoke to someone on a website. When experts are willing to come on screen for interviews, and I can hear their conversation in whole, not just snippets, I choose to believe them.

I also don't get this nitpicking about the documents in regards to really ridiculous assertions. For example, the issue of centering the letterhead. My understanding of letterheads is that they are pre-made forms. I don't know what they did in the 70's, but my guess is that a guy didn't type each on up. The lt. most likely had access to a stack of identical blank sheets of paper with the squad's splash across the top. Sounds like so much grasping at straws here that I cant even believe I posted--damn it, I was refraining for so long...

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

irateplatypus

i think a media establishment with a retaliatory attitude is extremely dangerous. i hope you aren't correct smooth, though i fear that you are.

locobot, how is the President's military service still impuned if the documents are false? to me, the President's military record would remain to be unremarkable. he served honorably in the limited capacity of a national guard pilot, but didn't see combat duty. big whoopie! certainly nothing to run on politically. he certainly hasn't tried. there is absolutely nothing nefarious about it.

the democrats have been trying to get traction on this issue for 5 years now. it hasn't stuck before, it's just getting sillier now.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Mephisto2

I agree with irate.

Isn't the whole issue of military records so very old and stale now? I think both condidates should move on and consider other more relevant facts.

The Democrats' focus on this is silly. The Republicans' attack on Kerry equally so.


Mr Mephisto

JBX

I believe in my last post I said "we'll see" to Superbelt. I believe I'm right and Rather we'll be ousted as a willing accomplice in trying to defeat President Bush. Rather should just fall on the sword and admit that he failed as a journalist, he didn't check his sources, all in a hope that the story was true.

Now shakran, I'll post at my own pace with my own thoughts. BTW I'd cross through Hurricane Ivan to vote for Bush and am proud of it. You can't vote for Kerry, just against Bush. How sad is that. Nuff said.

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shakran

Well that's not really hard to believe now is it? Times New Roman is an established font. It will look the same whether produced off of a laser printer, a daisywheel (remember those?), or a typewriter. So a document written on a typewriter equipped with a Times New Roman ball/keys will look pretty much the same as one written on MS Word.


And Ustwo, what the hell are you talking about? Yes, I read the thread. Did you?

Lebell

Please watch the personal comments

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Rekna

Shouldn't Bush do the same thing about the Nigerian documents then? Admit he failed as a president and passed on forged documents?

Ustwo

For those who care and just don't hate for hates sake.

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=222

It goes on....

But don't let facts get in you way.

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Rekna

Are you suggesting the the Nigir documents are real? Despite being signed by someone who wasn't in power for many years? Despite that it wasn't the guys signiture....

Ustwo

Nope, and if you read you would see the Italian docs were fake (quote above. * Both the US and British investigations make clear that some forged Italian documents, exposed as fakes soon after Bush spoke, were not the basis for the British intelligence Bush cited, or the CIA's conclusion that Iraq was trying to get uranium.
) Unfortunately for you, they are not where all the information came from. It wasn't as if the entire case was built upon a couple of fake documents. If the only proof of this were the fake docs, and after they were discovered to be fake Bush still defended them as true, then you might have a point. But it wasn't, he didn't and you don't.

I know this won't phase you.

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Rekna

Isn't this the same thing Dan Rather said? That there is more evidence then the documents?

Rekna

Also please post some refrences to reputable sources when citing articles.

Ustwo

http://www.factcheck.org/

Check it out before saying false statements. You sound like Dan Rather.

I will no longer respond to you until you try reading before you post. Seriously this is silly.

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Lebell

Stay on the issues, people!

I hate locking threads and warning folks!

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Rekna

what I am saying is that the article you posted seems incorrect on a lot of its points. The mainstream media isn't saying that Iraq tried to purchase uranium from niger but this article is? I'm sorry but I don't buy it.

charms

That contention is not true. Particularly for popular fonts, there are many different variations of the "same" font. And they can vary dramatically. The TNR of Microsoft is not the same as Adobe's TNR is not the same as the original TNR of Linotype.

charms

Factcheck.org is a well-regarded, non-partisan, non-profit source based in the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania. Anyone interested in politics should read this site before heading off to the ideological bobbleheads in the blogosphere (or the sloppy cut-and-paste journalism of the mainstream outlets).

It and other sites like Spinsanity are excellent resources for well-researched, spin-free information.

OpieCunningham

Dramatically? Hardly. Both IBM and Microsoft have gone to great efforts to duplicate to precision the original Times Roman font, in Microsoft's case as a direct response to the Adobe/Microsoft font wars of the early '90's. To the degree that it would be impossible to factually state that a character shape that has been scanned and faxed is the exact shape of a printed Microsoft Word character shape - particularly at the extremely small point sizes that are being compared. The smaller the point size, the lower degree of detail as directly related to the precision of the output device. Fax machines are at best, 144dpi. PDFs for download are screen res. - 72dpi.

The claim that the memo's are forgeries due to technical issues has been demonstrated to be false. The entire claim of forgeries now rests on people claiming to know the mind of a dead man. Hardly compelling.

Ustwo

Thanks for the link, thats a nice site.

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Big Cholla

I am not usually a believer in conspiracies (they are devilishly hard to hold together), but in this case let's follow the question of just who benefits the most from all the buzz this CBS/Dan Rather presentation has created. I am beginning to think that Hillary and Bill are setting John Kerry up for failure in 2004 while they are looking ahead to maximumize Hillary's chances for 2008. If Kerry were elected in 2004 that would push Hillary back to 2012 for her next real chance at the presidency. Perhaps the source of this whole situation is the Bill & Hillary controlled DNC. The basis of the report was so blatant in its falsehood that Hillary and Bill knew some of the stain would seep over on John Kerry.

charms

On the first charge, we'll have to settle for a draw. Anyone who works with typesetting knows that it is commonplace to see variations in Microsoft vs. Adobe fonts; you contend otherwise. Certainly, the electronic versions vary dramatically from mechanical typesets. And the similarities extend beyond character shape to almost every other aspect of the typesetting. I realize it is futile to attempt to convince you otherwise.

I have not seen any demonstration that the forgeries claim is false. The only evidence I've seen is that some of the technologies originally in question did in fact exist at the time. Possibility is not the same as probability. Surely, some lonely typewriter collector out there would be able to reproduce the document. Yet, no such reproduction has appeared to even rival those easily produced by the MSWord default settings.

Perhaps it is possible that Mr. Killian stumbled upon the exact typesetting, page layout, and font rules that Microsoft would later establish as its defaults 30 years later. If so, his estate should pursue royalites. Any reasonable skeptic would be suspiscious. Until CBS agrees to an independent evaluation, I shall remain so.

Ustwo

The only question is how long will CBS ride this sinking ship.

While normally the other media outlets ignore such bias, in this case there is a good dose of self interest in seeing CBS suffer for thier mistake and they are hammering CBS for it. The only one towing the line is the left wing Boston Globe.

Dan Rather owes his audiance, even if it is now mostly those on the left, an appology for both the fake documents and having Barnes on unchallanged. The fact that other interviews were scrapped for being to 'pro-Bush' just adds to the almost comical nature.

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j8ear

This is a done deal. The documents are likely fake, and if they aren't enough questions have surfaced (and apparently had already been floated BEFORE THE PIECE RAN last wednesday) so that CBS should not have run with the piece.

Here's the latest from ABCNEWS tonight:

ABCNEWS

This link appears to be temporary as it summarizes 'Tonights' abcnews cast which obviously changes daily.

Hone in on Brian Ross's segment which is abstracted as follows:

Those of you who continue to assert some semblance of impartiality and honestly believe Dan Rather to be a journalist of any integrity are lunatics. Those who continue to hold even the slightest monicum of hope that these documents are real are similarly deranged. It's over folks. Kerry looses. I am not even sure that he had anything to do with this, but am certain that the DNC was involved, likely behind Kerry's back, and clearly to his detriment.

Dan Rather needs to be fired, if he doesn't resign first, and the entire CBS news room needs to shaken up. Rather is the managing or executive editor of CBS news at large, and his continued involvement with the network, will CONTINUE to bring it down. He is ultimately responsible as the chief news editor and ultimate reportor of the story.

Additionally, much like the GOP, post water gate, the entire gangster squad of pathetic, win at all cost, worthless loosers running the DNC asylum need to go. Your party is now a joke. It stands for nothing, and hasn't for at least this past election cycle.

I encourage all democrats to stand up and be counted. Don't let your party take over like this and DEMAND change. Mcauliffe and his crowd are finished. They will continue to resist, but it's up to YOU, the rank and file democrats to turn the party back into something worth fighting for. Your party has been hijacked by the worst kind of low-life gangster scum, and they are embarrassing you. Take charge and make a change. Barring that, you will wither away into nothing. Te constitutionalists or the libertarians will ascend and become a party that begins to contest elections.

In all honesty, I really feel sorry for Kerry. He had the potential to make things interesting, perhaps even close. Show the current establishment that a good segment of America is unhappy with the current direction, perhaps even demonstrate a clear contrast to his opposition. He really wasn't able to ever get any momentum, constantly being dogged by his embelished past, unremakable 'nuanced' Senatorial career, and most importantly brought down by a corrupt and dispicable band of party leaders and thugs.

The democratic base is crumbling and the lusted after swing voters have moved away. Save your party, PLEASE. We need at minimum a two party system to make this country effective, and keep things in check. Democratic party leadership is not doing anything to keep themselves viable.

-bear

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Rekna

The same is true for Bush and his administration because of the nigerian documents which were clearly forgeries. They even ignored reports they were saying they were forgeries and went forward with it to the UN.

This whole document incident parrallells the nigerian documents but yet I don't here any conservatives complaining about those documents. At least Rather didn't use these documents to kill tens of thousands of people.

sprocket

You keep bringing up these documents... even after a reference to a reputable source has been posted that refutes your claims about them. What facts are you using to make the claims about these documents? Lets see them so we can move beyond this already.

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Rekna

first from the document above

and now i'll spare quoting other articles:

ABC
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/U...laweddocs.html

CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/07/16/fbi.niger/

Washington Times
http://washingtontimes.com/national/...0154-5384r.htm

How about Time
http://www.time.com/time/columnist/k...463779,00.html

Or CBS
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in562312.shtml

BBC has lots of quotes i'll post a few
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3051709.stm
There we have it from the white house spokesman himself.

The documents were fake there is no disputing this. The signature was from someone who hadn't been in power for many years. The dates in it were all inconsistent, ect. Tuns of flaws in those documents.

Ustwo

Ummm Renka no one is disputing the documents were faked.

What is disputed is that what Dan Rather/CBS is doing is in any way shape or form parallel to the Niger deal. Also it is apparent all you did was google for the stories and not read them as the two I looked at for fun both explained what happened quiet clearly. Its not as if the president, after they were found to be fake, pretended they were true, nor did he base his claim directly on said documents. The US intelligence agencies only got the documents AFTER the State of the Union speech. About the only similarity between the two is that faked documents were involved. After that they are widely divergent, while CBS goes into CYA mode the Bush admin admitted there was a problem with the documents.

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Rekna

Looks like he was questioning that they were a forgery to me.


No I did read them, I was pointing out the fact that they were considered forgeries which those articles all said.

These documents have not been proven false yet. So CBS should still be able to stand by their story, in fact they have an obligation to. Because if they are true and they give up trying to prove their truth then we have let a travesty happen.

There are two types of errors in stats accepting something that is false and not accepting something that is true. The later is much worse than the first. The same is true for our facts. So let's let the discussion about the validity of the documents continue until there is concrete proof one way or the other.

If you haven't read it lately check out CBS's case they update it daily.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in641481.shtml

First the documents went through the CIA before the white house. Second before the address Bush was told not to include the niger documents because there was suspicion of forgery.

pan6467

If they are fakes I would have to say as fast as they were rebutted, CBS was setup.
Everyone seems to ignore the other facts the story had in it, so that's a good thing for Bush.

How the finger can be pointed at Kerry because of this is really not all that reasonable but hey, if Faux News had done this to Kerry, I'm sure the righties would claim Bush's innocence and rightfully so. I may dislike Faux News but I don't believe they take orders from Bush (they just report how they want to). Along those lines, CBS doesn't take their orders from the DNC so fingers should not be pointed at Kerry.

In the end, to me the only thing that I can see is Kerry served 2 tours in 'Nam (and he only had to do 1, so the he wanted hurt and out is BS). While Bush who is sending troops over to Iraq left and right served in the Guard and took a year off to help someone run for office in Alabama.

Kerry, to me will make sure the men and women in the military are taken care of financially and medically. Bush will make sure Halliburton makes a couple more billion while finding reasons to deny true health and financial benefits to our troops, while he keeps sending them over and lying about how long they'll be gone.

Kerry, to me, knows what war is like and probably would try to find a peaceful solution before sending our troops into harm's way.

Bush has already lied about why we went to Iraq and we have lost 1,000 good people and many more are injured. Hopefully it ends soon but Bush never had a plan to get out and now we are in a quagmire over there.

So whether CBS's papers are accurate or not..... I don't give a rat's ass because it isn't changing my vote.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ustwo

Karl Rove eats babies.

Since basically all of CBS's 'experts' said they did not authenticate the documents, and that CBS gave them the impression they didn't care my guess is its not a set up but pure stupidity. The fact that they refuse to even admit there might be a POSSIBILITY of them being fake means they are going to stick with their bogus story and let it die rather then say who gave the documents to them. If they were indeed setup by the republicans wouldn't the first thing they would want to do let everyone know how they got them?

Or could it be that it came from the DNC or the Kerry campaign directly? If that were the case, revealing the source would put the knife in Kerry's back and twist it hard.

Dan Rather would not allow that to happen on his show.

The really funny thing is how the left has lost control of the media. Sure most of the major outlets still slant left to one degree or another, but where as before something like this would go almost unquestioned, now there are enough sources on the net, on the radio, and on the air that they can't count on that free pass they enjoyed for the last 30 years. One guy who sees these memos and has the right expertise no longer has to hope to get a editorial opinion on the 5pm local news slot, or pray they take his letter to the editor. He posts it on a highly visited website, and others pick it up and before long we all know about it. This sort of free flow of information is the one hope for our republic remaining free in the long run. As long as the government and the major media don't control the internet, they can't pull the wool over your eyes. Whenever a politician says something about the problems with talk radio, or the internet *cough Hilary Clinton cough* remember what it is they are trying to do away with. The free flow of ideas.

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Rekna

Or could it be they actually beleive they are real?

Or maybe it is a matter of journalistic privacy. If someone gives you a story and you promise not to give out your name you better not give out that name at all. Doing so would stop anyone from giving you information again. If you confess to a shrink, priest, or lawyer you have faith that they won't tell anyone what they hear. The same goes for journalists. If you tell them something and want to be kept out of the story they have a duty to do that.

smooth

Rekna, it's actually a type I (rejecting something that is true) and type II (failing to reject something that is false).

You're correct in that a type I is worse, since in the latter no conclusion is drawn (which is much different than accepting something that is false).

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"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Rekna

Thanks I couldn't remember the proper way to word it. But that sounds right

smooth

About fucking time you admitted that.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Ustwo

So you are saying they did control it before?

Interesting.

Also you will note that while they have lost control of the media, they are still a majority segement of it. They just can't lie and get away with it anymore.

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pan6467

It could be a lot of people, I truly don't think Hillary will ever run because she won't get elected. Maybe as a VP but not president. I truly cannot see her ever winning the office.

I just think there are a lot of people who want to destroy Kerry before the election, it could be anyone. Hell, it could be CBS is trying to clean their own house and are using this to destroy Rather and give them the excuse for cleaning house.

It could be another news agency or media giant trying to destroy Viacom, as I stated earlier Viacom has been under massive attacks lately.

Truly, who knows? I just think that allowing this to destroy any chance Kerry has by blaming him is a farce. Like I said, if Faux News did the same exact thing to Kerry, I wouldn't blame Bush. I don't blame Bush for Swift.... I think it's obvious from the resignations there was internal stuff going on between the 2 but I truly don't think Bush had anything to do with it.

Bush and Kerry have huge egos, you have to to run for president. Neither believes they will lose, you can't believe that if you are truly trying to win. So, to plant something that would be found out so fast would be idiotic and wanting to lose. Therefore, that is why I believe Kerry and Bush's innocence on the subjects.

The papers in question weren't going to affect the election, BUT proving them false..... he he he would not only affect CBS's credibility but could affect the election, hurt the Dems, and do all kinds of damage.

So in that scenario one must look for who has the most to gain. Who has been the quietest (because the quietest group or person would probably be the one who setup the whole thing. If they came forward Rather tells everyone he got the info from them and all this backfires. If they remain quiet and bide their time telling Rather that they'll come forward if need be but not yet, then Rather is going to sit on his source.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

j8ear

You could be right. I doubt it, but it certainly is possible.

I still think that The Nile isn't just a river in Egypt

Those thoughts about Viacom and an internal set up at CBS to oust Rather are interesting as well. Why people keep calling it faux is beyond me. They are legit. Like or not, they are fucking legit, and they are crushing CBS. They're crushing everyone and everyone is crushing CBS. The internet included. CBS needs a lot of work in the news gathering and disciminating department if that's going to be a money maker. What better way to become competive then to clean house.

Everyone's right...Kerry was in the shit in Vietnam...more then most men, yet unfortunately for him, not as much as some, Bush wasn't doing squat. His ole man pulled some string's and had the man teach him to fly Jets. Which he did marginally. Has anyone really ever disputed that? Who has played those 'formative' years more effectively, I ask? The nonsense about the Nigeria Docs is washed up. They were phony....and we discovered that they were phony and told everyone. How can that possibly be an issue. We've been fucking up for a long time. Finally some people (cough Powell cough) are stepping up and playing things wisely.

Bush needs to mop up. He did things that need eight years to complete. It looks more and more likely that he's going to get the chance.

I really hope the Democrats or someone else can challenge the Republicans then. That's not true. I hope actually that things are allowed to sunset, and that we start to legislated efficiently again (like back in the early 1800 ). I don't see that happening with either of the parties, at least with two parties 'at odds' the potential for grid lock exists (Radley).

Hopefully we'll see some democracies flourish in the Middle East, Jews and Arabs living side by side in peace, and a viable alternative to the fossil fuel reliance we currently exist with as a population. Plus it would be nice to see more and more North American's enjoying the privledge of being the greatest continent on the planet. I see this as being more and more likely.

One huge obstacle, imho, is Nuclear capablilty. I think you can generate two types of Nuclear Energy. One is heavy water which uses a naturally occuring isotope of water, and doesn't create the material to make weapons. The other is more efficient, safer, doesn't require a huge body of water, and makes the material needed in Nuclear Weapons. I'm not a scientist but I believe there is some merit to this. In order to effectively loose reliance on Fossil Fuels, populations need to become Nuclear Capable. It is in the currently nuclear capable countries best interest (the PermMembs of the UN Security were the first) to prevent or 'guide' Nuclear Enablement. This is why that possibility creates so much tension. We've really got to be careful with Iran and North Korea. US and Russia need to come together and take fucking care of business. Only they really can. And I think they can only together.

Or maybe not,

-bear

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