98MustGT

I have my thoughts what are yours?
BTW - I live in San Diego.

stonegrody

Why don't you get it started by stating your thoughts? It might be a better way to spark conversation...

jb2000

How can we focus on illegal immigration without talking about our immigration policy in general? When so much of debate hinges on what is or isn't legal, and what should or shouldn't be, making the debate specifically about illegal immigration kind of loads the forum before anything gets started.

98MustGT

Good Point however I need a alittle time cause I am at work.

Rekna

if they are going to keep giving us all their people they should give us their land too........

Zeld2.0

Its one of those double edged swords. On the one hand they make security an issue and well, it's illegal and has those problems attached to it.

On the other hand, without it, there are many many jobs that would not be taken and honestly would hurt our economy a lot.

98MustGT

First let me start off by saying the current situation is a mess. Bush's amnesty program is a joke. It seems as though we have three options.

A. Complete open borders
B. Limited Immigration
C. Current status (chaos)

A. Complete open borders - Many in California want this however this would destroy our economy and cause chaos beyond belief.
B. Limited Immigration - Only logical choice to me.
C. Current status (chaos) - How could anyone support this, immigrants and their families are hurt, and US citizens are hurt as well. It seems as though if you break the law long enough you are rewarded.


Limited Immigration
We need to have penalties for employers who hire illegal aliens. We need to have penalties for those who are here illegally. We need 'Guest Visas' for those who want to come to work cause the current status forces the breadwinner (male) to leave his family in Mexico. We need to all be on the same page, be consistent with our policy.

The Matricular card that many want the US to accept is a joke, I found out that card is not accepted in Mexico due to fraud!

Driver license for illegal, I understand the goal is have insured competent drivers but this hidden agenda is open borders, how can we justify rewarding illegal behavior?

Interesting stats -

The illegal-alien population at 2003 stands at least 8 million. Included in this estimate are approximately 78,000 illegal aliens from countries who are of special concern in the war on terror. It is important to note that the 500,000 annual increases is the net growth in the illegal-alien population (new illegal immigration minus deaths, legalizations, and out-migration).

1996 Costs Table from the Huddle Study (assuming 5 million illegal)
Programs (billions)
Public Education K-12 $5.85
Public Higher Education $0.71
ESL and Bilingual Education $1.22
Food Stamps $0.85
AFDC $0.50
Housing $0.61
Social Security $3.61
Earned Income Tax Credit $0.68 (they are getting IRS refunds)
Medicaid $3.12
Medicare A and B $0.58
Criminal Justice and Corrections $0.76
Local Government $5.00
Other Programs $9.25
Total Costs $32.74
Less Taxes Paid $12.59
Net Costs of Direct Services $20.16
Displacement Costs $4.28

All Net Costs $24.44


Mind you most of these costs are placed on California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. The Bush Administration should reimburse these states.

On a personal note I am part Mexican / Asian / Caucasian so don't throw racist remarks back at me. I have Asian relatives who came here with nothing that have assimilated into society and have educated themselves, I have Mexican relatives who have not been so successful, I believe that culture has allot to do with this.

Zeld2.0

I don't think it is in so much culture as it is background. I know more Hispanic billionaires/millionaires who made that in the U.S. than Asians who had money before coming (and being mixed and living in LA, theres a lot to see)

Anyways as far as immigration goes... quick fact to note is that if immigration would stop, the U.S. along with most other Western nations (mainly Europe) would decrease in population dramatically.

Halting immigration isn't going to help the nation - I still prefer open borders for people but still with the key mind in security. However, I don't see what you mean by the entire economy would be in disarray and chaos if borders were open.

Seaver

How do you propose this?

Put them in our overpopulated prisons? There's murdurers getting out within just a few years of their sentencing because they dont have room, I'd MUCH rather have a poor family living in the US than letting murdurers out.

Fines? These people have no money, that's why they're comin over here.

Some sort of Community Service? It'd take lots of police to make sure they didnt just bolt.

I agree with your opinions but I see no way of putting any sort of punishment that makes sense.

98MustGT

What are your thought on deporting them for a penalty, that is what other countries do?

Seaver

I think what you're saying is as a penalty for crossing our borders we deport them back to their country of origin? Sorry if I misunderstand the question.

To answer that, that's what we've been doing pretty much the entire time. The exact same people try dozens of times, and never stop trying until they slip past and embed themselves in the US. Many only try to stay the 9 months to have a baby (who is a full citizen now), and the US will not separate the family so allow them to stay. I live in Texas and many of my friends families have become full citizens this way. That being said I understand and agree to the need for secure borders, but you have to realize these people ARE people. They come from horrid conditions, and only want to come here for work. They dont want to live on welfare, they dont want to come to steal our jobs away at gunpoint. They want to make their lives better, as all of our families in the past, something too easily forgotten by people yelling "they're here to steal our jobs!".

Guess that's my biggest bleeding-heart liberal argument. I dont agree with handouts but to deny the chance to make one's lives bigger IS anti-American.

Zeld2.0

Right on, Seaver

98MustGT

I am kind of torn on this issue, if I Joe Citizen broke the law lets say cheated on my taxes 5 years ago and now was caught and was penalized with jail time I would be seperated from my family as I did jail time however Mr Illegal Alien does not?
It would break my heart to see families seperated or having the whole family moving back to Mexico.

Seaver

True MustGT, but you have to look at it in that if they're coming here illegally it means all of their pocessions are included with whatever they cross with. Fining them wont do anything because they have no spare cash. You couldnt deport an infant who is a US citizen who comitted no crime, and you couldnt have thousands of orphans without parents. I agree there should be some sort of punishment but nothing here would fit the relatively victimless crime.

assilem

IMHO. I say we give all the illegals from Mexico or South America automatic amnesty. If you are here you are a citizen. That way they are paying taxes, giving back to the land they take from. Then we erect a wall from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean. Thirty feet tall and thirty feet into the ground with a twenty foot buffer zone on either side. With barbed wire and gun towers every mile. If you come close to the wall we blow you away. I guess a couple of warning shots to be fair first. Problem solved.

__________________
The mother of mankind, what time his pride
Had cast him out from Heaven, with all his host
Of rebel Angels

Zeld2.0

Ironically, manning and maintaining such a wall would cost more money than the amount of money taxes get paid from those given amnesty

jb2000

I have a hard time with the immigration issue because my fundamental belief in personal liberty and human rights doesn't stop at the border. I don't believe that a Mexican is fundamentally less deserving of rights than Americans.

Ultimately, open borders are the ultimate goal. Do I think that means we should immediately get rid of border controls? No. But each step we take should lead to greater liberty for people on either side of that border. We can do this through a few rational steps:

1) Improvement of conditions here for people. By opening doors to allow immigrants to better themselves and become a more productive part of the system here, we all benefit.

2) Improvement of conditions abroad. Working to ensure labor and human rights are recognized and protected by foreign governments reduces the desparation of those who might seek to get into the US.

98MustGT

I cannot agree that these are victimless crimes, 95% of murder warrants in Los Angeles county are for illegal immigrants

BigGov

Could you please post a source for that information?

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

98MustGT

Sure but we have to wait until tomorrow. We have been bombarded with advertisments on the tele stating those facts. The ad refers to some LA county gov't web site. I will jot that down tonight and we can check it out tomorrow.

Zeld2.0

95% of warrants in LA County going for illegal immigrants sounds high... no, extremely high...

Given how many crimes are committed in LA County and how diverse the population is (and how many are citizens), that would be a very small group doing a lot of crimes everywhere.. when in truth, it would be hard to

I'd like to see where those numbers come from given that the last few times I saw warrants out for people, they were very much citizens

Kadath

Well, I searched for this information. I found that 95% number several places, but it all seems to come from this article;

"In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens." Link

However, she cites no source for this statistic(also, it is outstanding murder warrants, unsurprising if you think about the fact that it's much harder to track an illegal immigrant than a legitimate citizen). I've found it used in various other webpages, lifted whole from the article, but still no source (not even to the original article in some cases). I would be interested to see where Heather MacDonald got the number, so I emailed the City Journal. I'll let you know if I get a response.

__________________
it's quiet in here

rukkyg

So what you're saying is your take on illegal immigration is to make it not illegal?

DelayedReaction

http://www.nationalreview.com/dunphy...0401220906.asp
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_...gal_alien.html

I'm having trouble finding a primary source, so it might just be circular referencing. Here are the statistics being quoted:

Another article also mentions that an estimated 8 million immigrants live in this country illegally. Using the tax rates found here (http://www.savewealth.com/taxes/rates/single/), assuming they all made $6000 that would produce around $4.8 billion in additional tax income. I find it hard to believe a wall would cost that much to construct, given that the total budget for INS is around $5 billion or so.

I think America should be a land of opportunity for those who do not violate our laws. Obviously we're not going to be totally successful in blocking illegal immigration, but our borders need to be much more secure than they are now.

__________________
If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

roachboy

several points:
on the general question at hand:

1. if you want to stem the flow of undocumented workers to the states, get employers to stop hiring them.

2. but in these days of cowboy capitalism, employers find it to be just find to drive wages down to the lowest possible level (cost-cutting, dontcha know) so am not sure how you would do the above exactly.

3. undocumented status for workers has political consequences as well--it more or less guarantees an atomized, powerless workforce, one not likely to organize itself because of the ways in which undocumented status is understood. this works out for the maintenance of political control in a number of cali-cities.

4. it is also typical of these days of cowboy capitalism that people "concerned" about the matter of undocumented workers would be more inclined to blame the workers than look to firms, which drive the economic cycle that draws people to find work here in the first place.

5. it is also interesting that no attention seems to be paid to the outflows of this population--it is not obvious that undocumented workers come to stay in the states in any number statistically speaking. but it seems not to matter for the--largely rightwing--ideologues who manipulate the political matters surrounding this issue to create a sense of beleagured national solidarity, which is crucial to mobilizing people in a rightwing direction.

on crime stats:

6. police stats on this kind of issue should be viewed with great suspicion, particularly those from la, given the glorious history of racism institutionalised by that department.

7. even if the stats cited above are not problematic (an argument would have to be made for that--i do not buy the idea a priori), the logic behind them would seem to militate for an easing or elimination of undocumented status--which would in principle tend to drive wages up--which would reduce the levels of poverty--and would make these workers part of a political process for defense of their own interests--which would perhaps eliminate some of the incentives to organize for their own defense on other grounds.

it seems to me that you cannot have it both ways--if you are inclined to uncritically cheerlead for this variant of capitalism, you have nothing to say about undocumented workers as such--who are human beings drawn to the states for work because employers find it in their economic interests to hire them. conversely, if you have some kind of problem with undocumented workers, it forces you directly into a critique of this variant of capitalism--if it does not, then what you have to say is incoherent.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

98MustGT

Here is the link
http://www.nationalreview.com/dunphy...0401220906.asp

Here is the paragraph...
In Los Angeles, 95 percent of the outstanding murder warrants are for illegal aliens, as are perhaps two-thirds of the 17,000 outstanding felony warrants.

roachboy

it's funny how conservative media has developed its own, completely self-referential littlr world. check out the article link by the national review, which forms the source of the material you cite, 98--look at whoi/what the "manhattan institute" is. it confirms my point (5, above)

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

98MustGT

Sargeman

Actually, you've already taken our land. We're just coming back to reclaim what is ours, the land, the jobs, and a little interest.... your daughters


That was just a joke BTW, or was it.....


Seaver, I liked a lot of what you said, however, I have to disagree with you on this point:

Most legal/illegal immigrants are males that come here and usually work for a year or two or until they get caught. They try to save up enough money to send back home either to their mom or their spouse. Much of that money is in return saved so that when they have enough and have been caught enough times they can get legal documentations for them and if enough is left for their spouses and families.

If not enough money is left they do find ways of bringing their families with them. In that time period of being here many do have intercourse and do have babies that are then born in the US. Thus making the babies US citizens. But in many cases they (the illegal aliens) will of been here for a few years.

__________________
...because there are no facts, there is no truth, just data to be manipulated. I can get you any results you like, what's it worth to you.....

Willravel

Bumped for relevance.
From another thread:

stevo

If the illegals get amnesty I want amnesty on the next 5 years of federal income taxes. Perhaps I will plan some demonstrations and school walk-outs, since that appears to be the way we change laws we don't like.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

pan6467

Bumped from here: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=103421



Will, I love ya, and we agree on many issues. However, ILLEGAL is just that ILLEGAL. Once you cross over into this country ILLEGALLY you have no rights.

I am tired of people making excuses for ILLEGALS to be here, there is no excuse.

Yes, they take jobs.... and it is a concern but there are deeper concerns for me.

They are:

The BILLIONS they cost taxpayers for healthcare, housing, the criminal system and so on.

Hell, I posted here the law Congress and the president signed giving $1 BILLION to SouthWestern hospitals (that claimed they were going broke treating illegals) for FREE healthcare to illegals.

They are freaking ILLEGAL and they get FREE healthcare??????? I work my ass off, go to school and when I got treated I have my credit destroyed and sit on $25,000 worth of bills????? WTF, is that fair to me a TAXPAYING LEGALLY BORN US CITIZEN??????

Is it fair that some of these ILLEGALS get to use tax payers services? Where I work we have an ILLEGAL who has been here 25 years and he abused the system to get "detoxed" once a month for about 6 months consecutively (until he was banned). He would stay, get medicated, sleep, eat and leave. So the taxpayers of Summit County and Akron paid close to $2500 for this ILLEGAL, who paid NOTHING.

This same ILLEGAL uses our drop-in as his own little hotel and demands Detox every night. HE'll go to the hospitals in Akron and claim he needs "detoxed" and they call us having a doctor tell us to treat him (until the Dr. finds out his past). How much is that costing taxpayers??????

And this is in Akron, Ohio, I can only imagine how bad it is in border states. It's no wonder services like these are closing down because of lack of funds.

How about crime??????

In Hartville, Ohio a farm that works closely with a Jam/Jelly company hired ILLEGALS. 3 of them got trashed held up a convienence store shot and killed 2 adults and 3 kids. These ILLEGALS were caught, but instead of facing trial for murder they got deported back to Mexico WITH NO FINES and were back in the US a year later. If you need proof I'll scan the newspaper article for you.)

I know for a fact having lived in Phoenix, this is nothing new.

WTF?????????

Legal immigration is what this country was founded on and is our life blood. But ILLEGAL immigration needs to be stopped.

I have no qualms against a SHOOT TO KILL policy on the border. I figure we shoot and kill a couple illegals trying to come over.... that will deter a few of the 1000's that come over daily.

They have it so bad in Mexico, then they need to stay the fuck in Mexico and find ways to change their own damned country and not come over here, live off taxpayers and cry how we don't accommodate them or that we are prejudiced against them, or that we don't bow down and kiss their asses and wipe them as they shit all over our country.

BTW come to Akron, I'll show you the "shacks" Yoder's farms has set up for ILLEGALS.

As for "slaves" They fucking CHOSE to come here ILLEGALLY....... WTF are we supposed to do baby their fucking asses, further erode our economy and services and tax dollars to make sure they have the same rights as people who work their asses off and were born here or went through the proper systems and became LEGAL???????

If that's the case, I'll rescind my US citizenship, move to Mexico and come back ILLEGALLY....... Hell, I'd get free healthcare and people more worried about how I, as an illegal am treated than I do now as a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN. I'd get more and pay no taxes?????? Hell yeah sign me up for that.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

I'm sick of the BS that "Illegals are a good thing because they take jobs no one else will and for less pay. Without them our economy would be shit."

Gee, let's see...... Billions in tax dollars for education, healthcare, use of our tax supported programs while not putting a cent into the system, while LEGEL tax paying citizens are denied these programs because they may make too much (yet not enough to truly afford the service), we see these services going bankrupt, taxes increasing, the ILLEGALS saying we need to bow down to their needs.

I just don't understand what part of ILLEGAL people (including employers and the government) do not understand. These people are ILLEGAL, they have no rights, they have no right to be employed, recieve healthcare, go to our schools, use our tax paid services. NADA, ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH, THE GREAT "0". These are people committing a crime and need to be treated as the criminals they are.

If I go into a grocery store and I steal $100's of food because I am dirt poor and need to feed my family, when I get caught am I not going to jail?

Don't prices go up to make up for the store's losses I cost them?

Am I not going to have to make restitution?

No matter what the reason, am I not still breaking the law and costing people far more money?

Then why the fuck are we even having this discussion? Illegal immigrants are doing just that to our country.

ILLEGAL = ILLEGAL PURE AND SIMPLE CASE CLOSED.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

xepherys

pan, you're 100% dead on correct!

The recent marches regarding immigration reform agitate me. Personally I think the reform is FAR to "nice" to the illegals. If I just walked into Russia and set up shop, I'd expect to get my ass deported at least, or inprisoned at worst. You can't just do that shit. It's annoying in it's utter contempt for our country, and it's ridiculous that bleeding hearts out there think these CRIMINALS and MISCREANTS (which is what they are, not because of their heritage or background, but because they are BREAKING THE LAW) deserve so much love and compassion. Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit!

stevo

need a solution to the border? two words: land mines

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Mojo_PeiPei

For the first time ever I'm 100% with Pan and Xephyrs.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

JustJess

1. Land mines? Really? Hm. I wonder how you'd feel about that if it'd been YOUR ancestors that everyone wanted to kick out. Do you think they were all here perfectly legally? Have you not noticed the increasing bureacracy and bullshit hoops people have to jump through to become citizens of our country?

2. Of course laws are supposed to get changed with protesting and walk outs. What else is the point of protesting if there are never any results? It's a basic tenet of American principles!

3. The laws need CHANGING. Do you have any idea what it's like? ANY IDEA? Between the government's pisspoor planning and inability to streamline any sort of processing, and the plethora of ridiculously bad legal advice, people are getting screwed left and right, no matter what.

4. If you made FOUR DOLLARS AN HOUR, you would qualify for free health care and no taxes too. Except all those sales tax items, of course.

5. Ask the businesses that hire illegals if they would rather hire legally. Ask 'em if they want to start paying at least the (ridiculously low) minimum wage. Ask if they want to pay taxes and unemployment insurance and FICA on legals rather than paying nothing to illegals.

Let me quote a recent article I wrote on this very subject:
Now imagine someone who just needs a job, has very little literacy, and has no help with this process attempting to become a legal resident of the United States. And before you start making cracks about foreigners not being able to read/write in English, let me remind you that 1: there is no Official Language in the US (and a good thing for many of our forebears); and 2: Many born Americans are unable to read/write enough to handle a process like this.

So, in essence, get off your highhorses. We live in a glass house here, and we shouldn't be so quick to throw stones.

__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

stevo

Yes, really. As opposed to a manned wall with armed guards shooting to kill, or some other prohibitively expensive solution. We have the landmines made and ready so the costs would be small. We'd only need to mine the border maybe 300 yards wide. Land mines would give the same result as border guards with shoot to kill orders for a fraction of the price.
Yeah, they were all here legally, seeing how they didn't break any laws to get in.
We vote. The whole point of protesting is to miss school and work and maybe feel as if they are taking part in something big.
So your solution is amnsety? Fine. then I want amnesty from the next 5 years of tax payments. Why should someone who BROKE THE LAW to get here receive amnesty and I shouldn't?

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

flstf

I think the key idea you express is that they are coming from poor conditions and want a better life. The problem I have with amnesty and/or open borders is when is enough, enough? The immigration pressure from the south is just going to keep getting worse, they have a huge population explosion and horrible poverty.

What do we do when the illegal number goes from 10 million to 50 million or 100 million? If we don't secure the border then eventually we have no separate country.

pan6467

So what are you saying, the 1000's of LEGAL immigrants, that come into our country LEGALLY and have worked hard to do so are idiots because it would have been easier for them to just come in ILLEGALLY.

I have no qualms about LEGAL immigration, and yes, I can show you the Ellis Island papers from my great grandmother. All my ancestors came LEGALLY, and when they got here most were persecuted.... Irish/German/Italian/Dutch/Welsh is my background. hmmmmm None in that group were discriminated against in anyway, were they now?

So exactly what high horse am I on? That my ancestors came here legally, learned english, didn't cry injustice because the government and the communities refused to turn everything into "their" language, that my ancestors became proud citizens of the US assimilated and worked hard to make sure their progeny were "American"?

Laws changed and made it harder to become LEGAL..... so what?

YOU want me to believe it's ok to still break the law because it isn't fair to dirtbags who cross over ILLEGALLY and have no desire to assimilate into our country or to even attempt to become LEGAL citizens?????

Jess, ya know I agree with ya more than I disagree and I am fairly liberal. But my liberal views end right about here.

ILLEGAL = ILLEGAL PERIOD, END OF STORY.

Again, if it is so fucking horrid in Mexico maybe these people should be revolting against their own government and working harder to improve their country.

Instead, they choose they easy way and ILLEGALLY come into our country sponging off our system, using our tax dollars and expecting us to wipe their asses as they shit on our country.

Maybe our wages would go up and those out of work could find jobs (oooo yeah they take jobs no one else wants except maybe college kids or people who would truly like to work and get a start, or teens saving for college, or people who need to make some extra money in this economy that is booming because we hire illegals to do work "no one else will" as they destroy our tax based services.)

Not naive, I have seen this first hand and it is wrong.

Maybe if we didn't hire ILLEGALS and prices went up, more people would have to raise issue about the wage gaps between the workers and the CEO's. Maybe just maybe the economy would truly start healing if we turned ILLEGALS away.

And the people that hire ILLEGALS should be fined heavily and put into jail for conspiracy to defraud the government from it's taxes (wages and such) and perhaps if we made the punishments stiff enough they won't be hiring these ILLEGALS.

And the bleeding hearts that like lambs follow blindly saying "ILLEGALS deserve a chance", should talk with the families of people killed by illegals who watched the illegals get "punished" by being deported and coming back illegally.

No matter how you slice it, it's wrong.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"