inkriminator

I find it abhorrent that people can be so mis-informed about Islam that government officials in a country would attempt to do this. It just disgusts me.

Rekna

well it doesn't help when there are people out there hiding behind islam doing exactly what the guy is mentioning. As long as extreamists exist in islam and islamics don't come out against it then they will have people afraid of them.

inkriminator

Muslims, not Islamics.

Muslims do speak out against atrocities that occur by those who call themselves Muslims, but who would want to hear their voice. Simply put, if 999 Muslims gave interviews against terrorism and one voiced support for it, who would get on tv?

To re-iterate, Muslims do speak out against terrorism, from CAIR down to any local Mosque, you have to listen to hear though.

Halx

I'm sorry, but that's what being a conservative is all about; whittling down the tree with all it's many branches and leaves until it is a sharp, pointy stick.

Of course, that's over-simplifying it, but they wouldn't have the label of 'conservative' if they let society run as wild as a 1970 pornstar's pubic hair.

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losthellhound

umm praying?

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pan6467

I needed a good belly laugh today,(the pubic hair analogy not the tree, the tree analogy is a good representation). THANK YOU.

As a believer in a country's right to sovereignity, I find if that is how the Norwegian people vote than that is how they choose to run their country. I, as an American, may not understand nor believe that it is right, BUT it is Norway's right to do. Our country has no right to dictate how another runs itself (so long as they are not imprisoning and killing Muslims), especially if that is how the majority of Norwegians feel and vote.

We may view that, much the same as Norway may think us trying to pass laws to ban gay marriage is promoting hate.

However, I do believe that they are now opening themselves to terrorism and hatred from a huge portion of the world's population. So they do need to keep that in mind.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

DelayedReaction

Where have I heard this rhetoric before? Oh yeah...

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Seaver

Thank You!

Muslims are followers of the faith set down by Muhammed. Islamists (Islamics ?) believe that only in a theocracy based on their faith and the interpretations of it is what Allah wants and believes in.

And I have to play the devils advocate with pan, it is their country and we have no right to say how they run it. Mistake? undoubtably, but it's theirs to make.

Mojo_PeiPei

Whether people want to realize it or not, the Islamic faith and growth in europe is leading to many problems, and will only get worse. Besides the fact that many Europeans have contracepted and aborted themselves into a serious population squeeze combined with the massive influx of Muslim immigrants, Islam, especially radical Islam, is becoming HUGE in European countries. I think it is really lame that this is their idea on how to deal with it, but it is becoming a serious issue.

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pan6467

Look at where we are finding many Al Queda terrorists, in England.

These people are integrating into freer countries than those they are from in the Middle East and figuring out ways to destroy us.

Look at Spain and I am sure other European countries are having massive problems. I cannot blame them from wanting to seperate themselves from any possible problems.

Unlike other posters here I don't find it Hitleresque, I find it more a sovereign country that has a population that is worried about terrorism and losing their way of life. Rightfully or wrong, we should respect their wishes.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

MSD

England has had a large population of radical Muslims for many years. This doesn't surprise me at all.

98MustGT

I don't get it?

Dragonlich

Banning Islam is a just insane, but we're certainly entitled to demand that newcomers (and their kids) try to fit in, and don't try to destroy our very culture.

Many native Europeans see this issue as something of an invasion - we're being swamped by "other" people, with a vastly different culture. What's worse is that these "other" people seem to be making rediculous demands for us to change our way of life to suit them. In the mind of these Europeans, giving in to the demands of the newcomers only encourages them to demand even more, which, in the end, will mean the end of our culture.

To give you an idea of where these natives are coming from: imagine being born in the city of Rotterdam 50 years ago, moving away at age 10, and returning to your home today. Back in the olde days, there were Dutch people everywhere, all with the same familiar culture, all looking pretty much the same, and all speaking the same language. Today, a large part of the people are immigrants, who look and act (and speak) different. The hypothetical natives don't even feel at home anymore - it's like walking around in another country altogether.

Rekna

The problem is many of the theocracies based on islam ban all other religions. Europe being heavily christain doesn't want that to be taken away. Islam has very bad PR worldwide right now and until we stop reading about terrorism on a daily basis by islamic radicals there will be this fear. The radicals are doing nothing to help islam i just wish they could see that.

Polyphobic

My interpretation of Halx's use of symbolism in his post:

The tree represents freedom. Conservatives are fond of erroding our freedoms (hence cutting off the branches and leaves). Then after the freedoms are gone, you are left with a sharp stick that they can use to stab you with.

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Dragonlich

How's about: conservatives don't want anything or anyone being different from their ideal (branches). Therefore, they like to cut off the branches (make everything illegal, remove people that are different from their society), which will leave them with only a core of similar people, all "perfect", and all equally close-minded (sharp pointy stick).

whocarz

I would be fine with this as long as they ban all other religions in the process. In my mind religion is a crutch for the masses and a tool for the powerful.

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matthew330

...and what exactly is the conservative ideal? Which people exactly would we like to remove from society? What exactly would we like to make illegal, that isn't already?

That's the most ridiculous description of conservatives i have ever in my life heard. Though i appreciate you think of me as "perfect"(**clicks heels together and throws hand in the air, good attempt a subtlety), sorry to dissapoint - not quite. Maybe almost.

What whackjob lib shoved that idea down your throat. And you guys like to talk about the politics of fear.

Oh if i cared enough...

Seaver

Dont mean to hijack this thread but this pisses me off. Liberals want to take away our guns and the lifestyle of hunting. They want to increase taxes to the middle class to give to the lower class. They want to do lots of things that take away from our rights yet it's the conservatives that want to take away freedom?

Ok back to the thread...

Just out of curiosity what changes are demanded?

Halx

In the overall metaphor, the branches signify diversity. The end result being a tight, uniform society in which everyone is grained in one direction.

Dragonlich was pretty accurate.

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fuzyfuzer

government should have no part in religion. it is one of the many probloms in the middle east at this moment and it is becoming serious in our own country as i can see it has a potential in Europe.


diversity is very important to the existance of us as a people. without this diversity on a genetic level we would more than likely all be dead. without difference a group of people all the same are easy to distroy through a simple change.

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scapegoat

Ahhh religon, is it not a wonderous thing?

The world would be so much better without it.

It would seem despite there comparisons of the koran to Mein kampf, there plan seem she most Naziistic( i don think thats a word :P ) I cant belive they dont see the irony

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pan6467

I really think it's assinine to condemn a country that wants to save its heritage and in time of crisis try to protect themselves.

When you have a people that come to YOUR COUNTRY and DEMAND that you accomodate them and make changes for them is ridiculous and disrespectful. Why would they go to that country for that reason if not to create problems within the country?

I can see what Norway is saying and compare it to the U.S.. It's probably the one thing I am most radically far right on.

We have so many immigrants here that flatly refuse to speak English, expect OUR country to change for them that it pisses me off because my ancestors from Germany and Italy (and well my Irish/Welsh ancestors spoke English) had to learn to speak English and follow US llaws and customs. They did not expect the country to change for them.

If Middle Easterners are immigrating to Europe and demanding the countries that are rich with 100's of years of customs change to accomodate them, then Europe SHOULD say go fuck yourselves, you are visitors here. You want to live here, YOU adapt to us not the other way around.

If the Islam/Muslims are going and adapting, showing respect and not making demands then Europe doesn't have a pot to piss in and shouldn't complain. BUT I have a feeling from the way this sounds that is not the case.

Does ANYONE here who is comparing Norway to Naziism truly believe that if Norwegians went to Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and demanded churches and freedom of religion and allowed women to walk around in shorts and halter tops that those countries would say...."OK Mr. Norwegian we'll bow to your demands."

Hell No, they'd be imprisoned and deported and whatever because that country would feel like the Norwegians were dissing their customs.

So why should these people expect Norway tio bend over backwards for them and destroy 100's of years of tradition?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Mehoni

Norway has more than two parties, so that might just be a small party with crazy ideas, so condemning Norway for something a small party says is wacko.

Example: We have seven big parties all in our riksdag. If a guy from SD, a small party full of racists, who more than likely would make a stupid speech like that, would taht mean that Sweden wanted to ban Islam or something like that?

No.

I feel sorry for the norwegian right, who has to depend on Frp to get a majority.

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seretogis

I don't think that the "conservative" comparison was either necessary or appropriate. A true "conservative" is interested in limiting, not expanding, the power of government and would not want to use the power of government to alienate a group of people based on religion.

That said, I think that the attempt to ban Islam is ignorant and wrong -- it's an attempt to solve a complex problem by overly simplistic means and will probably cause more harm than good.

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Glava

Europe may be heavily Christian by official church affiliation, but in practice, religion does not play a major role in the lives of most Europeans, and a fair number of them are atheist, agnostic, or "spiritual". So characterizing Europe as a secular, rather than a Christian region, would be more accurate.

Polyphobic

My apologies to everyone who was offended by my interpretation of Halx's symbolism. It was a mere simplification of my complex interpretation of conservatism. Anyhow, my interpretion of halx's post was wrong.

Here is a question that I would like to address. Do conservatism and liberalism (left and right) hold the same principals throughout the world? I do not believe so.

Sincerely,
Liberal wackjob

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Dragonlich

Polyphobic: yes and no.

Conservative means: wanting to keep things as they were. It really depends on *how* things were.

In the US, people seem to be interpreting it as meaning "keeping the government out of my backyard" - in essence, they want the government to go away as much as possible (like in their wild-west fantasies about the olde days).

Conservative in parts of Europe means, in the extreme examples, a right-wing party going back to the olde days where everyone was the same (i.e. white), where the government was strong and everywhere (!), and people listened to authority. Practically the opposite of what an American conservative would want, methinks.

Besides, conservatism is just one part of the party line - it means pretty much nothing without other information. For example, Al-Qaida is conservative, in that they want to go back to their old days, but they're also radical, in that they want change NOW.

Aladdin Sane

I don't mean to highjack this thread, but I must respond.

As a so-called conservative, I couldn't disagree more. I flirted with philosophical/political anarchy in the early 80s, drifted to communism, socialism, and finally the U.S. Democrat party. Slowly I found that my impulse toward anarchy was better represented by Republicans and Libertarians. In reality my political ideals are closer to 19th century liberals than the ideals of the so-called Liberals of today (in the U.S.).

Now back to the issue at hand: The Islamists have stated on numerous occasions that they are engaged in a real war against the West. Their stated intent is to destroy western society. If the moderal believers in the "Religion of Peace" don't want Islam to be highjacked by these 14th century radicals, they've done little to prove it. So if Islam doesn't clean the rats out of the mosque, the Infidels must do it before the pestilence spreads. The rats say they are at war against us. War is hell.

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inkriminator

As I stated in an earlier post, Muslims world-wide do condemn these attacks just as much as a Christian, Jew, Athiest, or any morally reasonable person would. Do you think that on 9-11 the muslims got a note, telling them not to go to work? They were killed as well. Don't you think that muslims hate terrorists who act in the name of Islam, for ALWAYS purely political reasons, moreso than someone who isn't a Muslim.

As I noted earlier, just because you haven't heard, or seen something on the TV/Internet, does not mean it does not exist. Search for evidence before you claim it doesn't

"No sane person can approve such an act that involves the killing of innocent people, because it is in this case a form of blatant terrorism," asserted Sheikh Tantawi, who heads the highest religious authority in the Islamic Sunni world."

If that's not enough...look deeper
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

It is far too easy to judge many by an extreme few. Form your own opinions, but at least let them be informed.

Rekna

read some of the posts on this islamic forum about the US and the zionists and then tell me if muslims by in large condem these actions.

http://www.islamonline.net/Discussion/English/bbs.asp


Muslims are not doing a good job of teaching their childern compasion and understanding. They teach their childern hatred who then teach their childern hatred. Muslim nations need to change a lot if they don't want the world to be afraid of them. You can't preach to kill all the infidels and then wonder why the infidels are afraid of you..... (why are you calling them infidels in the first place?)

inkriminator

Rekna, we're a little off topic here.

Rekna

actually were right on topic. The topic is the Norweigan Party tries to ban Islam. I'm providing reasons that people may want to take such actions.

pocon1

I believe that the majority of Muslims are peaceful and want their religious freedom protected. I think that some muslims are giving everyone else a bad rap. I also think that the moderate muslims need to step forward and put an end to this bullshit terrorism in the name of allah. Example: The Pope cowtowed to Hitler and let him run rampant over the Jews. The Pope should have gotten in his little car and drove up to Hitler and told him off, along with every other Christian leader that kept their mouth shut.

Mojo_PeiPei

No intent to hijack, but I can't let this filth go unchecked. Pius saved nearly a million jewish lives, he was a national hero to the Jewish motherland for his efforts.

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