I think there should be some new terms used.. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Halx · 08-06-2004, 04:09 PM

Right now we have two terms to describe opposite ends of the spectrum: Liberal and conservative.

However, there are 2 different spectrums in politics that these labels apply to: Social and economic.

It's all too possible to fall on one end of the social spectrum and be on the complete other end of the economic spectrum, so I think these needs to be some sort of clarification.

Since the terms liberal and conservative are used as identifying labels, I would readily assign them to the social spectrum. Meanwhile, the economic spectrum should be seen as a different field.

What are some terms that are used to describe people on opposite ends of the economic spectrum?

(And, I'm not a fan of labels.. I hate being called an independant.. but this is better for shorthand in conversational use)

FoolThemAll · 08-06-2004, 04:28 PM

Yep. I've been using the quadrant system for a while now. I'm solidly on the right side economically, but I've got both liberal and conservative positions socially. So I'm somewhere between conservatism and libertarianism.

hammer4all · 08-06-2004, 05:10 PM

Well, there's always the Political Compass.

I think it does a pretty good job of portraying varying political viewpoints (both socially and economically). I fall in with the libertarian left.

Note: The American "Libertarian Party" would probably classify as libertarian right, though as the Political Compass points out, their "libertarian impulses stop short of opposition to strong law and order positions, and are more economic in substance (ie no taxes) so they are not as extremely libertarian as they are extremely right wing."

OFKU0 · 08-06-2004, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Halx

What are some terms that are used to describe people on opposite ends of the economic spectrum?

Scumbag and douchebag come to mind first of all. Depending on who you are speaking with.

SecretMethod70 · 08-06-2004, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OFKU0
Scumbag and douchebag come to mind first of all. Depending on who you are speaking with.

You're intelligent enough to know that's got nothing to do with what he was talking about. Let's keep the dialogue above comments like that here.

DelayedReaction · 08-06-2004, 06:17 PM

I fall within the Libertarian left as well, although I'm pretty close to the center in the economic scale. Not so much in the social scale.

I agree with the idea that saying we're liberal or conservative is a bad idea, and would suggest we adopt this a bit more. Maybe make it a sticky post?

Halx · 08-06-2004, 06:38 PM

I think the issue with that political compass is the use of 'libertarian' as a label.. people would be quick to assume party affiliation.

fuzyfuzer · 08-06-2004, 06:40 PM

you could almost replace liberaterian with mild anarchist that seems like what they are trying to go at but those words tend to have a negative conotation so they probably arent the best

OFKU0 · 08-06-2004, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SecretMethod70
Let's keep the dialogue above comments like that here.

My apologies at attempt'd humor.

TheKak · 08-06-2004, 07:52 PM

I agree, the quadrant system is a better way of doing it than "liberal" or "conservative". Call me liberal left!

DelayedReaction · 08-06-2004, 09:12 PM

Okay, so how about liberal instead of libertarian, conservative instead of authoritarian, and keep the left and right?

JumpinJesus · 08-06-2004, 09:27 PM

Whenever I think of changing terms to describe political affiliation, I'm reminded of the saying, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

Whatever terms we come up with, we eventually run into the same problems of old: attempting to villify whatever label with which we disagree.

We complain of how much we disdain labels, then quickly label ourselves. What I find curious is how many people, in the attempt to not label themselves, label themselves as libertarian. This is not a jab at anyone here - lest it be taken as such. The point I am making is that we have created a new label in the hopes of escaping labels. It's normal human behavior to classify. It's what we do. Airports do it, grocery stores do it, gas stations do it, birds do it, bees do it....

Instead of railing against labels, I say create more and give more political choice. It's not the labels that voters hate, it's the lack of choice in identifying themselves that they hate. Not all liberals back every action of the Democratic party and not all conservatives back every action of the Republican party. Having only two solid choices tends to force us into a box with which we're not entirely comfortable. I'd like to see a more Parliamentary system in which a third party candidate can translate votes into representative seats in the house. Maybe then we can have more choice and more a sense of ownership in our government.

MSD · 08-06-2004, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fuzyfuzer
you could almost replace liberaterian with mild anarchist that seems like what they are trying to go at but those words tend to have a negative conotation so they probably arent the best

Anti-authoritarian has a nice, positive-sounding ring to it.

I think that opinions on foreign policy should also be factored in, and are separate enough from economic issues that they deserve thier own axis, which would make the compass a cube.

On the political compass, I fall between -5 and -6 on the vertical axis, and between 2 and 3 on the economic. This is a big change since my introduction to Tilted Politics, when I was around -9, -9.

FoolThemAll · 08-07-2004, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
Anti-authoritarian has a nice, positive-sounding ring to it.

ANARCHY!!!!!!!! PUNK RAWK!!!!

What'd be the term for those on the border of authoritarian and anti-authoritarian like myself, though? Double-agent?

fuzyfuzer · 08-07-2004, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DelayedReaction
Okay, so how about liberal instead of libertarian, conservative instead of authoritarian, and keep the left and right?

that dosen't quite work because liberitarian is really standing for someone who wants personal liberties over government control and i don't think that liberal really stands for that personally, i don't know. how about incrising control on top and increasing freedoms and responsabilities on the bottom.

DelayedReaction · 08-07-2004, 03:02 PM

Fine then. Up/Down, Left/Right?

I'm down-left myself. :P

fuzyfuzer · 08-07-2004, 07:23 PM

somtimes simpleast are the best i think

MSD · 08-07-2004, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FoolThemAll
ANARCHY!!!!!!!! PUNK RAWK!!!!

What'd be the term for those on the border of authoritarian and anti-authoritarian like myself, though? Double-agent?

"Moderate"

ARTelevision · 08-07-2004, 11:18 PM

I am quite cognizant of authority as a requirement for excellence in human existence, so I'm content with the description "authoritarian".
I also prefer being "right" to being wrong.

Kadath · 08-09-2004, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ARTelevision
I also prefer being "right" to being wrong.

Aw, come on! That's no better than "douchebag"!

I'm fine with being labeled liberal. If someone wants to dismiss me because of a label, he is ignorant at best.

ARTelevision · 08-09-2004, 05:36 AM

Yes. I agree it's a bit lame.

Well, let's see. Authoritarian just about covers the whole thing.

And in the context of this discussion, there's no need for me to assign right or left affiliation, as Authoritarian actually well conveys my positions.

Thanks.

denim · 08-09-2004, 06:57 AM

"Right" and "Left" aren't exactly finely-tuned terms, either. They're like using a stone axe to measure microns of difference, in some ways. They get to the same place by different paths.

"Liberal" doesn't mean what it used to, either. It's used more sloppily these days, as I understand it, which has distorted a previous meaning beyond use.

Bentley Little · 08-10-2004, 11:05 AM

I wholeheartedly hate the labels, because I can be conservative on fiscal issues, and liberal on social issues. This is part of the Libertarian ideals (which when asked what "side" I belong to, I say Libertarian). I would prefer to say, I am not conservative nor liberal, but that I believe in less government and more power/rights/freedoms to the people.

08-06-2004, 04:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	I think there should be some new terms used.. Right now we have two terms to describe opposite ends of the spectrum: Liberal and conservative. However, there are 2 different spectrums in politics that these labels apply to: Social and economic. It's all too possible to fall on one end of the social spectrum and be on the complete other end of the economic spectrum, so I think these needs to be some sort of clarification. Since the terms liberal and conservative are used as identifying labels, I would readily assign them to the social spectrum. Meanwhile, the economic spectrum should be seen as a different field. What are some terms that are used to describe people on opposite ends of the economic spectrum? (And, I'm not a fan of labels.. I hate being called an independant.. but this is better for shorthand in conversational use) __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

08-06-2004, 04:28 PM	#2 (permalink)
FoolThemAll Walking is Still Honest Location: Seattle, WA	Yep. I've been using the quadrant system for a while now. I'm solidly on the right side economically, but I've got both liberal and conservative positions socially. So I'm somewhere between conservatism and libertarianism. __________________ I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

08-06-2004, 05:10 PM	#3 (permalink)
hammer4all Insane	Well, there's always the Political Compass. I think it does a pretty good job of portraying varying political viewpoints (both socially and economically). I fall in with the libertarian left. Note: The American "Libertarian Party" would probably classify as libertarian right, though as the Political Compass points out, their "libertarian impulses stop short of opposition to strong law and order positions, and are more economic in substance (ie no taxes) so they are not as extremely libertarian as they are extremely right wing." Last edited by hammer4all; 08-06-2004 at 05:30 PM..

08-06-2004, 06:17 PM	#6 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	I fall within the Libertarian left as well, although I'm pretty close to the center in the economic scale. Not so much in the social scale. I agree with the idea that saying we're liberal or conservative is a bad idea, and would suggest we adopt this a bit more. Maybe make it a sticky post? __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

08-06-2004, 06:38 PM	#7 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	I think the issue with that political compass is the use of 'libertarian' as a label.. people would be quick to assume party affiliation. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

08-06-2004, 06:40 PM	#8 (permalink)
fuzyfuzer Insane Location: st. louis	you could almost replace liberaterian with mild anarchist that seems like what they are trying to go at but those words tend to have a negative conotation so they probably arent the best __________________ "The difference between commiment and involvment is like a ham and egg breakfast the chicken was involved but the pig was commited" "Thrice happy is the nation that has a glorious history. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

08-06-2004, 07:52 PM	#10 (permalink)
TheKak Insane Location: Virginia	I agree, the quadrant system is a better way of doing it than "liberal" or "conservative". Call me liberal left! __________________ Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic and so am I.

08-06-2004, 09:12 PM	#11 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	Okay, so how about liberal instead of libertarian, conservative instead of authoritarian, and keep the left and right? __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

08-06-2004, 09:27 PM	#12 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	Whenever I think of changing terms to describe political affiliation, I'm reminded of the saying, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Whatever terms we come up with, we eventually run into the same problems of old: attempting to villify whatever label with which we disagree. We complain of how much we disdain labels, then quickly label ourselves. What I find curious is how many people, in the attempt to not label themselves, label themselves as libertarian. This is not a jab at anyone here - lest it be taken as such. The point I am making is that we have created a new label in the hopes of escaping labels. It's normal human behavior to classify. It's what we do. Airports do it, grocery stores do it, gas stations do it, birds do it, bees do it.... Instead of railing against labels, I say create more and give more political choice. It's not the labels that voters hate, it's the lack of choice in identifying themselves that they hate. Not all liberals back every action of the Democratic party and not all conservatives back every action of the Republican party. Having only two solid choices tends to force us into a box with which we're not entirely comfortable. I'd like to see a more Parliamentary system in which a third party candidate can translate votes into representative seats in the house. Maybe then we can have more choice and more a sense of ownership in our government. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

08-07-2004, 03:02 PM	#16 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	Fine then. Up/Down, Left/Right? I'm down-left myself. :P __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

08-07-2004, 07:23 PM	#17 (permalink)
fuzyfuzer Insane Location: st. louis	somtimes simpleast are the best i think __________________ "The difference between commiment and involvment is like a ham and egg breakfast the chicken was involved but the pig was commited" "Thrice happy is the nation that has a glorious history. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

08-07-2004, 11:18 PM	#19 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	I am quite cognizant of authority as a requirement for excellence in human existence, so I'm content with the description "authoritarian". I also prefer being "right" to being wrong. __________________ create evolution

08-09-2004, 05:36 AM	#21 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Yes. I agree it's a bit lame. Well, let's see. Authoritarian just about covers the whole thing. And in the context of this discussion, there's no need for me to assign right or left affiliation, as Authoritarian actually well conveys my positions. Thanks. __________________ create evolution

08-09-2004, 06:57 AM	#22 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	"Right" and "Left" aren't exactly finely-tuned terms, either. They're like using a stone axe to measure microns of difference, in some ways. They get to the same place by different paths. "Liberal" doesn't mean what it used to, either. It's used more sloppily these days, as I understand it, which has distorted a previous meaning beyond use.

08-10-2004, 11:05 AM	#23 (permalink)
Bentley Little Insane Location: In my head...	I wholeheartedly hate the labels, because I can be conservative on fiscal issues, and liberal on social issues. This is part of the Libertarian ideals (which when asked what "side" I belong to, I say Libertarian). I would prefer to say, I am not conservative nor liberal, but that I believe in less government and more power/rights/freedoms to the people. __________________ That is my 2 cents.