Why would we do this? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

tecoyah · 05-20-2004, 05:59 AM

In the link below are the details, but in essence we are showing a complete lack of regard for the power we are attempting to place in the hands of the Iraqi's.

My questions are:

Why are we even pretending to give power to these people?

How long will we "OWN" this country?

When will the costs (human and monetary) , out-weigh the percieved benefits?

How can we expect to instill democracy in Iraq, if we fail to practice it ourselves?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...a/iraq_chalabi

HarmlessRabbit · 05-20-2004, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tecoyah
[B]Why are we even pretending to give power to these people?

Because the handover of power is very important to the Bush re-election campaign. I'm not saying that as a Bush criticism, just an observation.

Quote:

How long will we "OWN" this country?

Well, the fact that we are shifting some of the 30,000 troops stationed in Korea to Iraq should give you some sort of feel for the timeline. The Korean War started in 1950.

Quote:

When will the costs (human and monetary) , out-weigh the percieved benefits?

That's a trick question for me. The costs outweighed the benefits, in my opinion, the day we defied the U.N. and decided to go to Iraq against U.N. wishes.

Quote:

How can we expect to instill democracy in Iraq, if we fail to practice it ourselves?

Exactly. Also: you can't eliminate torture by practicing torture. In Israel, you can't eliminate hatred by hating. Why are these things so hard to understand? Lao Tzu said it 3,500 years ago. Jesus said it 2,000 years ago. Mohammed said much the same.

Phaenx · 05-20-2004, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Exactly. Also: you can't eliminate torture by practicing torture. In Israel, you can't eliminate hatred by hating. Why are these things so hard to understand? Lao Tzu said it 3,500 years ago. Jesus said it 2,000 years ago. Mohammed said much the same.

You're under the impression that violent aggressors are reasonable. This doesn't seem to be true.

The best practice of subjugation in my opinion is overwhelming force and time. It has seemed to work out well with Japan, though in all fairness they did start producing electric penis shock and "hey, watch this chick poop into this other chicks mouth" porn after we gave them their country back.

denim · 05-20-2004, 09:12 AM

We've been at war with the Iraqis since 1991. There was a truce. They broke the rules of the truce, so it ended.

Mehoni · 05-20-2004, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by denim
We've been at war with the Iraqis since 1991. There was a truce. They broke the rules of the truce, so it ended.

When did they break it, and what did they do?

seretogis · 05-20-2004, 09:54 AM

It's been said in this forum a hundred thousand times, and there is really no excuse for not posting the entire quoted article instead of just a link. Just do it (tm). Nike.

Quote:

.S. Troops Raid Chalabi's House in Iraq

2 hours, 37 minutes ago

By HAMZA HENDAWI, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - U.S. soldiers and Iraqi police raided the residence of longtime American ally Ahmad Chalabi on Thursday, and aides accused the Americans of trying to pressure him to stop complaining about U.S. plans for Iraq (news - web sites) after sovereignty is transferred in about six weeks.

American officials here have complained privately that Chalabi is interfering with a U.S. investigation into allegations that Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime skimmed millions of dollars in oil revenues during the U.N.-run oil-for-food program.

But coalition spokesman Dan Senor said that investigation has "nothing to do with what transpired today" and that Chalabi and his organization, the Iraqi National Congress, were not the targets.

A senior coalition official said on condition of anonymity that an Iraqi judge had issued several warrants and the details would be released later.

At a press conference after the raid, Chalabi lashed out at the ruling Coalition Provisional Authority, complaining it was coddling former members of Saddam's Baath Party and treating Iraqis badly.

"I am America's best friend in Iraq," Chalabi said. "If the CPA finds it necessary to direct an armed attack against my home, you can see the state of relations between the CPA and the Iraqi people."

He said he was asleep when police stormed into his room carrying pistols.

"I was asleep. I opened the door. The police went into my room carrying pistols," Chalabi said. "I told them to get out."

Police seized documents related to the oil-for-food program, a report by the Oil Ministry to the Governing Council and letters from the council, he said.

Chalabi claimed U.S. authorities here were angry with him because "I am now calling for policies to liberate the Iraqi people, to get full sovereignty now and I am pushing the gate in a way they don't like.

"I have opened up the investigation of the oil-for-food program which has cast doubt about the integrity of the U.N. here, which they don't like."

In a statement, Chalabi's INC party accused authorities of behaving in "a manner unbecoming in the climate of the new Iraq" and reminiscent of "the former fascist regime."

It called on the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council, of which Chalabi is a prominent member, to take "a national and responsible stand toward these provocations."

Chalabi aide Haidar Musawi said the U.S.-Iraqi force surrounded Chalabi's compound in Baghdad's Mansour district at about 10:30 a.m., while Chalabi was inside. Force members told Chalabi's aides they wanted to search the house for wanted INC officials.

The aides agreed to let one unarmed Iraqi policeman inside to look around.

American soldiers and armed U.S. civilians wearing flak jackets milled about the compound and people were seen loading boxes into vehicles. Aides said documents and computers were seized without warrants.

Salem Chalabi, nephew of Ahmad Chalabi and head of the Iraqi war crimes tribunal, said his uncle told him that Iraqi and American authorities "entered his home and put the guns to his head in a very humiliating way that reminds everyone of the conduct of the former regime."

The younger Chalabi said the reason for the raid was unclear but the coalition "must be afraid of his political movement."

Ahmad Chalabi has complained recently about U.S. plans to retain control of Iraqi security forces and maintain widespread influence over political institutions after power is transferred from the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority to an Iraqi interim administration on June 30.

Musawi accused the Americans of trying to pressure Chalabi, a longtime Pentagon (news - web sites) favorite.

"Why is this happening at a time when the government is being formed?" Musawi told The Associated Press.

The Americans also raided other INC offices, he said.

"The INC is ready to have any impartial and judicial body investigate any accusation against it," Musawi said. "There are American parties who have a list of Iraqi personalities that they want arrested to put pressure on the Iraqi political force."

Another party official, Qaisar Wotwot, said the raid was linked to Chalabi's recent comments demanding full Iraqi control of oil revenues and security after the June 30 transfer of power.

"It's a provocative operation, designed to force Dr. Chalabi to change his political stance," he said.

For years, Chalabi's INC received hundreds of thousands of dollars every month from the Pentagon, in part for intelligence passed along by exiles about Saddam's purported weapons of mass destruction.

Chalabi has been criticized since large stockpiles of such weapons were never found. The former banker and longtime Iraqi exile was convicted of fraud in absentia in Jordan in 1992 in a banking scandal and sentenced to 22 years in jail. He has repeatedly denied the charges.

U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz confirmed earlier this week, during testimony before Congress, that Washington has ended payments of $340,000 a month to Chalabi's organization for intelligence gathering have been ended.

U.S. and coalition officials recently accused Chalabi of undermining the investigation into the oil-for-food program. The U.S.-backed probe has collected more than 20,000 files from Saddam's old regime and hired the American accounting firm Ernst & Young to review them.

Chalabi launched his own investigation, saying an independent probe will have more credibility. He exposed alleged abuses of the oil-for-food program early on and has been trying to force the coalition to give him the $5 million in Iraqi funds set aside for the probe to pay for his effort.

Iraq's U.S. civilian administrator, L. Paul Bremer, has resisted that request.

The money comes from a fund of mostly seized Saddam assets and Iraqi oil sales.

The United Nations (news - web sites) is conducting a third investigation led by former Federal Reserve (news - web sites) chairman Paul Volcker.

denim · 05-20-2004, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mehoni
When did they break it, and what did they do?

As I understand it, they broke it by violating the "no fly" zones multiple times, as well as other violations which were largely ignored by the Clinton administration. Bush simply laid down the law. Several times. Each time, Iraq didn't heel. So we went in.

llama8 · 05-20-2004, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by denim
As I understand it, they broke it by violating the "no fly" zones multiple times, as well as other violations which were largely ignored by the Clinton administration. Bush simply laid down the law. Several times. Each time, Iraq didn't heel. So we went in.

They also continued to deny access to UN weapon inspectors. Only at the elenth hour did they finally agree to allowing access and I believe that was somewhat "limited". This left them in 'material breach' of UN resolution 687 (?) in 1991 and then 1441. I believe both of these give a case for war.

Although I do agree with the principles for war, I don't agree with what has gone on afterwards.

denim · 05-20-2004, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by llama8
They also continued to deny access to UN weapon inspectors. Only at the elenth hour did they finally agree to allowing access and I believe that was somewhat "limited". This left them in 'material breach' of UN resolution 687 (?) in 1991 and then 1441. I believe both of these give a case for war.

Yeah, I forgot about those little things.

Quote:

Although I do agree with the principles for war, I don't agree with what has gone on afterwards.

We're in agreement here. The attempts at psychological warfare are, if I understand correctly, precisely what the Geneva Convention was trying to target.

HarmlessRabbit · 05-20-2004, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
You're under the impression that violent aggressors are reasonable. This doesn't seem to be true.

No, I think violent aggressors are unreasonable. My definitions of who is the "violent aggressor" might differ from yours in some cases.

Quote:

The best practice of subjugation in my opinion is overwhelming force and time. It has seemed to work out well with Japan, though in all fairness they did start producing electric penis shock and "hey, watch this chick poop into this other chicks mouth" porn after we gave them their country back.

Heh. You could argue that we successfully instilled democracy in Japan, I'll give you that. Japan is a lot different country than Iraq, and WWII is a lot different than Iraq. Violent subjugation doesn't seem to be working particularly well for Israel. Overall, looking at Cambodia, the Soviet Union, China, and others, I'd say the strategy has mixed success.

But anyway, I think we're straying off-topic.

I think the search of Chalabi's house was a terrible PR move in light of all the other problems the USA currently has in Iraq.

reconmike · 05-20-2004, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by denim
We're in agreement here. The attempts at psychological warfare are, if I understand correctly, precisely what the Geneva Convention was trying to target.

Psych-ops are a major part of warfare, the idea is to lower the enemies will to fight. To confuse and even scare them into submission.
The sooner this is accomplished the easier the fight is.

The Geneva Convention laws of POW treatment were meant to curtail true torture (ask McCain about torture as a POW).

Now to the original post,
We will give them back their country, on June 30 we will start to hand it over. But first we need to steal all their oil and leave them a dry hole in the ground.

The benifits have already been proven, Libya, The Sudan and others are falling into line.

I as an American feel safer since GWB has been in office, and I am
concerned that if Kerry wins we will go back to being as OBL called us a paper tiger. There will be more attacks against US interests, and Kerry will respond in Dem. fashion by trying to make these people understand us, and our way of life.

Zeld2.0 · 05-20-2004, 01:18 PM

Psych-ops is important to crush the enemy...

But in this case I think it might have a negative effect on those we once considered our allies - what good is it for us if we target our own allies and they end up our enemies?

Not very productive when you're hitting the wrong people

Rekna · 05-21-2004, 08:37 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120535,00.html

Quote:

BAGHDAD, Iraq — U.S. officials believe they have "rock solid" evidence that Iraqi Governing Council member Ahmad Chalabi (search), once a darling of the American government, passed secrets to Iran, Fox News has learned.

"There is no need for an investigation because we're quite certain he did it," one senior Bush administration official said.

The official first described the evidence against Chalabi as "pretty solid" and then characterized it as "rock solid."

U.S. troops and Iraqi police on Thursday suddenly surrounded and raided Chalabi's house — and police also searched offices of his organization, the Iraqi National Congress.

CIA sources told Fox News there are reports that the INC passed information to Iran, but as far as what type of information, the sources said that isn't known for sure.

Defense officials also told Fox News there was speculation that INC members allegedly shared information with Iran (search) and misused funds and property belonging to the Iraqi Governing Council.

CBS News reported that the U.S. has evidence Chalabi has been passing highly classified U.S. intelligence to Iran, citing senior U.S. officials.

CBS said the "rock solid" evidence was said to show that Chalabi himself gave Iranian intelligence officers information so closely guarded that if revealed it could "get Americans killed."

Coalition officials in Baghdad portrayed the raid as one in which the United States did not have a major role. Coalition spokesman Dan Senor said it was led by Iraqi authorities with support from the U.S.-run Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA).

American officials in Iraq have complained privately that Chalabi has been interfering with a U.S. investigation into allegations that Saddam Hussein's regime skimmed billions of dollars in oil revenues from the controversial United Nations-run oil-for-food program (search).

But Senor said that investigation has "nothing to do with what transpired today" and Chalabi and the INC were not the targets.

An Iraqi judge issued a series of search and arrest warrants relating to fraud, kidnapping and "associated matters," Senor said. Up to 15 people were named in the warrants, but Chalabi himself wasn't believed to have been on the list.

Evidence and illegal weapons were seized during the raid.

Once favored by the American government as the possible new leader of Iraq, Chalabi has also recently come under suspicion because he has been openly criticizing the United States for its plans to transfer power to the Iraqi people at the end of June.

Sources told Fox News that the raid was the result of a corruption investigation initiated by the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior.

The sources said the probe may have something to do with members of the Iraqi National Congress bribing or extorting former members of Saddam's Baath Party, perhaps demanding payments for withhold damaging information.

Senior Department of Defense officials told Fox News that early reports that U.S. troops were involved in the actual raid itself were untrue. Instead, they said, soldiers provided a security perimeter but didn't accompany Iraqi police inside the Chalabi house.

In a news conference Thursday, Chalabi blasted the coalition for raiding his house. Though he said he and his people are grateful to President Bush for ousting Saddam, he believes it's time for the Americans to leave and demanded that sovereignty be turned over to the Iraqis immediately. He blamed the coalition for coddling former members of Saddam's Baath Party and treating Iraqis badly.

"Let my people go," he said with characteristic drama. "My relationship with the CPA now is nonexistent."

He described his colleagues on the Iraqi Governing Council as "great patriots" and demanded that complete control be passed to them.

"I am America's best friend in Iraq," Chalabi said. "If the CPA finds it necessary to direct an armed attack against my home you can see the state of relations between the CPA and the Iraqi people ... This is the penultimate act of failure of the CPA in Iraq."

He said that more than five Humvees, filled with what he alleges were FBI and CIA officers and American civilians, came to the house where he and the defense minister live and forced their way in.

There was a fistfight outside, but no weapons fired, according to Chalabi. He said he was sleeping when police stormed into his room carrying guns.

"I was asleep. I opened the door. The police went into my room carrying pistols," Chalabi said. "I told them to get out."

The men made off with computers, documents, files and prayer beads, Chalabi said, and helped themselves to food and "several cases of Pepsi."

Police seized documents related to the oil-for-food program, a report by the Oil Ministry to the Governing Council and letters from the council, he said.

A U.S. official told Fox News that while the FBI and the United States Marshals Service were involved in Thursday's action, the CIA was not.

Chalabi claimed U.S. authorities here were angry with him because "I am now calling for policies to liberate the Iraqi people, to get full sovereignty now and I am pushing the gate in a way they don't like.

"I have opened up the investigation of the oil-for-food program which has cast doubt about the integrity of the U.N. here, which they don't like," he said.

In a statement, Chalabi's INC accused authorities of behaving in "a manner unbecoming in the climate of the new Iraq" and reminiscent of "the former fascist regime."

It called on the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council, of which Chalabi is a prominent member, to take "a national and responsible stand toward these provocations."

Entifadh Quanbar, an INC spokesman in Washington, D.C., told Fox News that soldiers raided Chalabi's home because he has been outspoken about the oil-for-food investigation and Iraqi sovereignty. Quanbar said the raid was a politically motivated attempt to intimidate Chalabi.

Fox News learned that Chalabi has alleged that he has files pertaining to the oil-for-food program, though it wasn't confirmed whether any of those documents were seized in Thursday's raid.

The CPA has asked Chalabi to turn over all his oil-for-food files to an official auditing body, Fox News learned.

Chalabi claims L. Paul Bremer, the top U.S. civilian administrator in Iraq, has been withholding funds he was supposed to be given to investigate the scandal-scarred program. However, CPA officials say he was never promised such funds and does not have the power to conduct such an investigation, sources told Fox News.

During Thursday's search, police sealed off Chalabi's residence in Baghdad's swanky Mansour district. Reporters were barred from approaching the scene.

Some people could be seen loading boxes into vehicles. A couple of Humvees were in sight, along with about a dozen U.S. soldiers and several armed Westerners wearing flak vests and using SUVs without license tags — vehicles associated here with U.S. security.

Neighbors said some members of Chalabi's entourage were taken away in the raid.

A Chalabi aide, Haidar Musawi (search), accused the Americans of trying to pressure Chalabi.

"The aim is to put political pressure," Musawi told The Associated Press. "Why is this happening at a time when the government is being formed?"

Musawi said the U.S.-Iraqi force surrounded the compound at about 10:30 a.m. while Chalabi was inside. They told Chalabi's aides that they wanted to search the house for INC officials wanted by the authorities.

The aides agreed to let one unarmed Iraqi policeman inside to look around.

Abdul Kareem Abbas, an INC official, said Chalabi's entourage objected to the raid but "we couldn't because they came with U.S. troops."

"They came this morning, entered the office of Dr. Ahmad Chalabi and said that they were looking for people," said Abbas. He said they wanted to make arrests.

For years, Chalabi's INC received hundreds of thousands of dollars every month from the Pentagon, in part for intelligence passed along by exiles about Saddam's purported weapons of mass destruction.

Chalabi, long mistrusted by the CIA and the State Department, came under further criticism after major combat ended and the large stockpiles of weapons he had promised existed were never found.

Last week, the Pentagon abruptly cut off the INC's funding. U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz confirmed earlier this week, during testimony before Congress, that Washington has ended payments of $340,000 a month to Chalabi's organization for intelligence gathering.

Chalabi, a secular Shiite Arab and former banker who left Iraq for exile after a left-wing coup in 1958, was convicted of fraud in absentia in Jordan in 1992 for allegedly embezzling over $1 billion from a bank he ran and sentenced to 22 years in jail. He has repeatedly denied the charges.

The oil-for-food program, which began in December 1996 and ended in November, was designed to help Iraqis cope with U.N. sanctions.

Chalabi has complained recently about U.S. plans to retain control of Iraqi security forces and maintain widespread influence over political institutions after power is transferred from the CPA to an Iraqi interim administration.

Musawi said Chalabi "had been clear on rejecting incomplete sovereignty ... and against having the security portfolio remain in the hands of those who have proved their failure."

However, U.S. and coalition officials have recently accused him of undermining the investigation into the oil-for-food program. The U.S.-backed investigation has collected more than 20,000 files from Saddam's regime and hired American accounting firm Ernst & Young to conduct the review.

Chalabi has launched his own investigation, saying an independent probe would have more credibility. He took an early lead in exposing alleged abuses of the oil-for-food program and has been trying to force the coalition to give him the $5 million in Iraqi funds set aside for the probe to pay for his effort. The move has been strongly resisted by Bremer.

Chalabi's backers have hired a competing American accounting giant, KPMG, to do its audit, but they want Bremer's administration to pay the bill out of the Iraqi funds, mostly seized Saddam assets and Iraqi oil sales.

The United Nations is conducting its own investigation, led by former Federal Reserve chairman Paul Volcker.

Another source of tension could be Chalabi's calls for closer relations with Iran. Washington and Tehran have been at odds since Islamic revolutionaries ousted Iran's U.S.-backed shah in 1979 and held Americans hostage for more than a year.

apparently Chalab has been spying for Iran?

05-20-2004, 05:59 AM	#1 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Why would we do this? In the link below are the details, but in essence we are showing a complete lack of regard for the power we are attempting to place in the hands of the Iraqi's. My questions are: Why are we even pretending to give power to these people? How long will we "OWN" this country? When will the costs (human and monetary) , out-weigh the percieved benefits? How can we expect to instill democracy in Iraq, if we fail to practice it ourselves? http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...a/iraq_chalabi __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

05-20-2004, 09:12 AM	#4 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	We've been at war with the Iraqis since 1991. There was a truce. They broke the rules of the truce, so it ended.

05-20-2004, 01:18 PM	#12 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Psych-ops is important to crush the enemy... But in this case I think it might have a negative effect on those we once considered our allies - what good is it for us if we target our own allies and they end up our enemies? Not very productive when you're hitting the wrong people