ubertuber

This thread is meant to be a reply to Aladdin Sane's thread: What's the point in discussing politics? No one ever changes their opinion.

I don't post often in this forum, but you can count on the fact that I am always here, reading just about every post. Recently, there have been some really good ones, and after thinking about, I realize that I have changed my views on some issues due to what I have seen here (and people that know me IRL think I'm pretty stubborn).

This wouldn't be the place to argue with me about the things I am listing, so please don't try. That's not what this thread is for. To start it off, I'll say that I have shifted my views on:

Abortion - Bill O'Rights has helped me feel that my libertarian views may outweigh may feelings about the procedure.

The Bush Administration - I couldn't give any single poster credit, but I'm much less likely to vote for Bush than I was a year ago.

Gun control - Lebell and Seretogis in particular have educated me and made me more certain that the current gun control legislation is ineffective and damaging.

Social justice issues - Smooth, Kadath, and Filtherton really make me stop and think about this. I'm not ready to vote for affirmative action yet, but you guys do make me think about your points.

See? There really is a point to the endless debate here. People are paying attention even if they aren't responding.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

ARTelevision

This forum keeps me current with what folks are thinking and adds doses of instantaneity, relevance, and insight to my daily experience.

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The_wall

I'm also one that reads this forum a lot but doesn't post on it. Though my opinions havn't much changed I do love to hear as many opinions on an issue as possible. Some opinions I hear here even really anger me, but I'm still glad I know about it, the more ideas that float around the more knowledge is gained.

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irateplatypus

haha, this cracked me up as i've always thought those guys were triplets. just joking... i know they're their own persons, but i've consciously observed in my mind how often they seem to approach issues from similar viewpoints. so it was funny to me how you listed them all in row.


glad you're observing... be sure to speak up if you've got something to add.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Kadath

I tend to have friends and family with similar political views (with the exception of my boss, who is a neo-conservative to make some of you proud). So this is one of the only places where I can run across the opposing viewpoint and actually debate it. It forces me to consider my own stance for weaknesses and internal conflicts.

Also, I am less opposed to guns than I used to be.

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Frowning Budah

Aladdin is basically correct, the discussions on this board probably don't change many minds, but I for one, like to hear others opinion and will acknowledge a valid point when one is made.

WarWagon

It's actually made me come to realize how much I hate reading/participating on political posts on the net. I go online as a retreat from having to deal with this shit in the papers, on tv, etc, and its inevitable that I come across various arguments, regardless of which forums I choose to visit. Sure, there are some good discussions and valid points made, but the majority turn into flame wars that are kept in check by the mods (again, not just this forum.)

Lebell

I am less supportive of Bush than I was previously.

I also now support some restrictions on abortion in the third trimester (still support none in the first two).

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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smooth

I'm not as supportive of gun "control" measures as I used to be. (Lebell)

That said, I wish we could figure out a technological apparatus that people wouldn't be reticent to use but was effective in ensuring unauthorized (criminals as well as children) users weren't able to use them.

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Lebell

I am flattered everyone, thank you.

That being said, as an aside, I think our best strategy for tackling the majority of gun violence is to start by tackling the drug problem in the US, since gang bangers are responsible for many deaths, especially among teens.

I also think we need to come down hard on criminals that use guns (as in an additional penality for committing a crime AND using a gun).

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Sparhawk

I come here as an outlet, because political discussions where I work is kind of taboo.

I also use it to educate myself. (if I wasn't coming here, I'd still be thinking there were WMD's in Iraq)

The nice side-benny is that it has definitely stimulated the politics bug in me - that is now the first section I turn to in the Post (no longer the comics!)

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almostaugust

It keeps my mind sharp. I like to see what people are thinking, and why they are thinking a certain way. It has also become the first section i come to when i get on the TFP.

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sportsrule101

This forum has thoroughly reinforced why I vote in every election.

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VTBrian

I try to hear opinions from all sides of an issue before I form an opinion of my own. This forum helps me do that.

JBX

I'll be blunt. Sometimes it aggravates me, an issue that is so clear to me is missed by other posters. I'm sure they feel the same about me. I feel hopeless on changing a mind that is already made up.

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assilem

For all of the disagreements I have gotten into, during my short time here, I am still accepted and not out right thrown out for a having a different point of view. All politics and world events aficionados come here to talk, share ideas, and have some heated debates. Yet the moderators still allow dissension amongst the members. Most political forums only tolerate one point of view or political ideology and do not allow the "other side" to voice their opinions. This is a true political forum (fo•rum: A public meeting place for open discussion.) not just a place of redundant ideological collusion. I would also like to say thank you to all the members and moderators for the opportunity to share, bicker, and for a place of political opinion refuge.

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Zeld2.0

Yep defenitely its a great place to talk and listen even if people disagree because that is what politics is all about.

I don't think it matters much whether the other guy changes his mind - if you can simply get them to see your side you've already done a lot more than others have.

analog

Indeed.

I don't think i'm stubborn, but I know that on the issues I care about, I have sat down and given it serious thought from both sides, and my gut & brain tell me what they tell me. So, they don't tend to change much.

I can say I hate Bush a lot more than I did before coming in here (which was a lot to start with), but that's probably only because the matters of politics in general are now constantly on my mind.

tecoyah

I find many differing points of view, that help spur the growth of my own theories, and opinions. With the diverse population we encompass, it becomes stimulating to debate the individual "realities" we all see. Yes, even I have had my view changed by a well stated post or two, and that is the primary reason for debate.
I also find this forum a wonderful test of my emotional control, as I have had to leave many a thread, in order to remain an active member at TFP. A true testament to the skill,(or lack of) that some regulars are capable of.

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Charlatan

I am able to keep abreast of any number of issues and the various points of view on those issues...

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Warf Rat

I love coming here because I love politics. It's true that I do not comment often because when I do, I seem do get souted down, but that's OK.

Life would suck if we all saw things the same.

Keep posting and I'll keep reading.

Thanks to all.

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debaser

This forum proves that the other side is almosy always valid, even if it is dead wrong.

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uncle phil

instanteneity?

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Sparhawk

he spelled it right. I think ARTelevision was a spelling bee champion when he was a kid.

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

filtherton

This board is good thinkin' and writing practice for me. I think i've learned to try to take a more balanced approach to evaluating things that i'm not entirely familiar with or passionate about. It helps me take my mind off of things that i would otherwise obsess over(analysis paralysis is a jerk). I think it helps me control my anger when dealing with people who say things seemingly just to piss me off. I'm also slightly more moderate than i used to be. I've come to realize what should have been obvious: the left can be just as abrasive and ignorant as the right.

theusername

I've become slightly more liberal, what a shock being here lol.

"The Bush Administration - I couldn't give any single poster credit, but I'm much less likely to vote for Bush than I was a year ago."

I've changed my stance on Gay Marriage and Abortion which i guess is a pretty large switch.

I've realized that Gay marriage doesnt affect me in anyway and when people ask me about it I respond that I do not care. If they want to be married thats ok, if people resist and dont want them to be married thats ok. It just doesnt affect me at all so I take no stance on the issue.

On Abortion I have a personal objection to it. I would never want a kid with my DNA to be killed before it was born. To me it is ethically wrong. However, if someone else can live with it and doesnt want to deal with having a child thats their right. I dont think the government should be able to dictate and run our lives for us.

Keep in mind this is just while i've been around here. I didnt look at a thread and change my mind. I'm always discussing issues with others and thinking ideas out in my head but I definitley give this forum some credit in reference to enlightening my political views.

MSD

I've realized that unlike those I have met in real life, not every neo-conservative is a religious nut who is completely detached from reality and responds to any criticism of their view wiht "You're going to hell." It's intriguing to see that there are intellgent people behind the opinions that I had previously only seen attached to lunatics.

I've also realized just how stupid and childish political debate can be. We all have a tendency to to get defensive and regress toward a feral state when we find that we may be dead wrong. The faceless medium and the ability to participate in a debate after cooling down for hours or even days leads us away from that instinct. This cooling down period completely reversed my views on many things, mainly economic, and I found myself dropping my registration in the Democratic party and switching to Libertarian several weeks ago.

ubertuber

I'm digging this one out of the crypt because I think MSD's point is quite valid... To me, this is the number 1 benefit of this forum - to be forced to confront the fact that there are perfectly rational, sincere people who hold views that are incomprehensible to us.

I've also learned that you get a lot farther with someone that you disagree with if you leave room for them in the discussion. Threads that start off as the equivalent of a train going 60 miles an hour don't allow people to climb on... You've got to start in such a way that people who aren't already on your train of thought can hitch a ride. That's a learned skill and this place is good for practicing it.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

politicophile

I've learned the incredible annoyance of what I call the "unwanted ally". On many occasions, I have been arguing a particular viewpoint only to be "helped" by someone who shares my viewpoint, but wants to advocate it by acting like a complete moron. It truly is worse to have rude and obnoxious friends than enemies.

Secondly, I've learned that I have a political pet peeve: I get really angry when someone detaches from the debate and studies what is happening in terms of the political debate in the country. An example that I made up:

"This thread is of little more than anthropological value. Note how the conservative lives in his own world in which all Republican leaders are a priori incapable of making errors."

If I had a dollar for every time I wrote an angry response to those people and deleted it without sending it...

...Which brings me to my last point. I have learned a great deal of self control in the face of completely unreasonable people. Sometimes, the best thing to do is to stop reading.

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The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

FoolThemAll

I've had a few changes of heart.

Manx, of all people, changed my mind about NAMBLA. No, they're still the scum of the earth. But mere advocacy for their ideas should not be illegal.

I probably wouldn't vote for Bush again...I'd try to find a right libertarian instead. There's too much to hate with spending and civil liberty policy. No, Bush hasn't become Hitler yet, but as a poster from another board said, "It's not the benevolent dictator that is the problem, it's the guy who comes after him." There's too much potential for malevolent abuse.

I'm less libertarian now as it concerns the social safety net. I'm willing to accept it to a far greater degree, and essentially to judge it on whether it works (rather than whether it's fair to the middle and upper classes). Within (and here's that classic ambiguity) reason.

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msh58

gotten me interested in politics for the first time.

Charlatan

BUMP

I think this thread gives us great perspective on why we continue to post in this Forum.

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- Old Man Luedecke

Poppinjay

My auto-response was, "not at all", but that would be a lie. While reading some of the threads and participating has not changed my voting record, it has helped me understand the issues.

Aside from the "but Clinton..." posts, there are some reasonable and thoughtful right of spectrum arguments that communicate clearly. I now find that I consider intelligence and competency much more important than whether a politician is right or left.

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highthief

To be honest, it has turned me off political debate. Yes, probably the majority of people here are reasonable, but the voices from the extreme right and extreme left, and their utter inability to talk about the issues (they'd rather just yell "Lib-rul!" or "Neo-Con" at each other and everyone else who is not as extreme) does deter me from posting here more often. It's unfortunate - I think if about a half-dozen of the most extreme loons were culled, this would be a much better place.

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Charlatan

Give it a week or so... I think there might be some changes in the works.

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Willravel

How has TP affected me? It's created a monster. Before TP, I never gave a second thought to politics. Now I've learned that there is a serious flaw in our current systems in many governments, and to discuss and debate is a function of checking and balancing the governments of the world. Free thought and imagination are the functions of a responsible and vigelent citizen of your country and the world. I love my country and, despite partisan bickering, I do feel as if not only I can make a difference, but members of TFP can make a positive difference in me. That is truely a great effect.

ShaniFaye

Its the one forum on this board (besides the "porn" forums) in which I try to stay as far away as possible from.

you people terrify me to the point that its very very difficult to want to contribute anything to it

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joshbaumgartner

This has been an excellent place to tap into a variety of ideas on issues. I have not done any 180's based on what I've read, but it has continued to add definition to my understanding of a variety of issues. I have never seen debate or discussion as merely a means to change others' positions or to convince people you are right. Instead, it is the best way for people to exchange ideas. We all have a lot of good ideas about how things should be, but only when we can all come together and share those ideasl, and they can be critically analyzed, questioned, and honed, do we progress as a society. TFP is just one more forum for that interchange, but (IMHO) it is a good one, and I have been pleased to be able to participate with the rest of you in it.

TFP has reinforced my belief that the right to freedom of expression wasn't guaranteed just so we could complain. It was because only when we have a free exchange of ideas are we able to truly make positive progress. Individuals may have good ideas, but great ones can only come about when the good ones can come together.

skier

Tilted politics has defenitely affected the way I see the world and the knowledge I have about different issues. There's often threads where I see a different perspective to an issue i've never even come close to thinking about yet is well reasoned and thoughtful. I come here first when I encounter an issue or event i'm not informed about and want to learn more.

I also love reading the posts that host makes. It's a shame that there is little response to them because he nearly always makes excellent points that are backed up with plenty of documentation.

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Mojo_PeiPei

Frightened me. I often feel frightened, often raged at perspectives and sentiments held. Doesn't give me much hope; or maybe some hope in that said perspectives are so ridiculous that they are regulated by themselves.

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