Lebell

I'm struggling to come up with meaningful commentary.

I guess the only one I can think of is that these people want either a)completely Islamic governments not only in the Middle East, but also in the West or b) Death.

Oh, and that the Jews are apparently responsible when they don't get their way.

http://www.iht.com/articles/517138.html


Call to Jihad rising on Europe's streets
Patrick E. Tyler and Don Van Natta Jr./NYT The New York Times
Tuesday, April 27, 2004

Hundreds of angry Muslims are answering

LUTON, England The call to jihad is rising in the streets of Europe, and is being answered, counterterrorism officials say.

In this former industrial town north of London, a small group of young Britons whose parents emigrated from Pakistan after World War II have turned against their families' new home. They say they would like to see Prime Minister Tony Blair dead or deposed and an Islamic flag hanging outside 10 Downing Street.

They swear allegiance to Osama bin Laden and his goal of toppling Western democracies to establish an Islamic superstate under Shariah law, like Afghanistan under the Taliban. They call the Sept. 11 hijackers the "Magnificent 19" and regard the train bombings in Madrid as a clever way to drive a wedge into Europe.

Last Thursday evening, at a tennis center community hall in Slough, west of London, their leader, Sheik Omar Bakri Mohammad, spoke of his loyalty to bin Laden. If Europe fails to heed bin Laden's offer of a truce - provided that all foreign troops be withdrawn from Iraq in three months - Muslims will no longer be restrained from attacking the Western countries that host them, Mohammad said.

"All Muslims of the West will be obliged," he said, to "become his sword" in a new battle. Europeans should take heed, he added, saying, "It is foolish to fight people who want death - that is what they are looking for."

On working-class streets of old industrial cities like Crawley, Luton, Birmingham and Manchester, and in the Arab enclaves of Germany, France, Switzerland and other parts of Europe, intelligence officials say a fervor for militancy is intensifying and becoming more open.

In Hamburg, Mustafa Yoldas, the director of the Council of Islamic Communities, saw a correlation to the discord in Iraq. "This is a very dangerous situation at the moment," Yoldas said. "My impression is that Muslims have become more and more angry against the United States."

Hundreds of young Muslim men are answering the call of extremists into groups affiliated or aligned with Al Qaeda, intelligence and counterterrorism officials in the region say.

Even more worrying, said a senior British counterterrorism official, is that the level of "chatter" - communications among suspected terrorist figures and their supporters - has markedly increased since bin Laden's warning to Europe this month. The spike in chatter has given rise to acute worries that planning is advanced toward another strike in Europe.

"Iraq dramatically strengthened their recruitment efforts," one counterterrorism official said. He added that some mosques now display photos of U.S. soldiers fighting in Iraq alongside bloody scenes of bombed-out Iraqi neighborhoods. Detecting actual recruitment is almost impossible, the official said, because it is typically done face to face.

Members of Al Qaeda have "proven themselves to be extremely opportunistic, and they have decided to try to split the Western alliance," the official continued. "They are focusing their energies on attacking the big countries" - the United States, Britain and Spain - so as to "scare" the smaller states.

Some Muslim recruits are going to Iraq, counterterrorism officials in Europe say, but more are remaining home, possibly joining cells that could help with terror logistics or begin operations like the one that came to notice when the British police seized 540 kilograms, or 1,200 pounds, of ammonium nitrate, a key bomb ingredient, in late March, and arrested nine Pakistani-Britons, five of whom have been charged with trying to build a terrorist bomb.

Stoking that anger are some of the same Islamic clerics who preached violence and martyrdom before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

On Friday, Abu Hamza, the cleric accused of tutoring Richard Reid before he tried to blow up a Paris-to-Miami jetliner with explosives hidden in his shoes, urged a crowd of 200 outside his former Finsbury Park mosque to embrace death and the "culture of martyrdom."

Though the British home secretary, David Blunkett, has sought to strip Hamza of his British citizenship and deport him, the legal battle has dragged on for years while Hamza keeps calling down the wrath of God.

Despite tougher antiterrorism laws, the police, prosecutors and intelligence chiefs across Europe say they are struggling to contain the openly seditious speech of Islamic extremists.

The authorities say that laws to protect religious expression and civil liberties have the result of limiting what they can do to stop hateful speech. In the case of foreigners, they say they often are left to seek deportation, a lengthy and uncertain process subject to legal appeals, during which the suspect can keep inciting attacks.

While some clerics, like Abu Qatada - said to be the spiritual counselor of Mohamed Atta, who led the Sept. 11 hijacking team - remain in prison in Britain without charge, others like Mohammad, leader of a movement called Al Muhajiroun, carry on a robust ideological campaign.

"There is no case against me," Mohammad said in an interview. Referring to calls by members of Parliament that he be deported, he added, "but they are Jewish" and "they have been calling for that for years."

Mainstream Muslims are outraged by the situation, saying the actions of a few are causing their communities to be singled out for surveillance and making the larger, non-Muslim population distrustful of them.

Muhammad Sulaiman, a stalwart of the mainstream Central Mosque here, leads a campaign to ban Al Muhajiroun radicals from the city's 10 mosques.

"This is show-off business," he says in accented English. "I don't want these kids in my mosque."

Other community leaders look to the government to do something, if only to help prevent the demonization of British Muslims, or "Islamophobia," as some here call it.

"I think these kids are being brainwashed by a few radical clerics," said Akhbar Dad Khan, another elder of the Central Mosque.

In Slough, Mohammad spent much of his time Thursday night regaling his young followers with the erotic delights of paradise while he also preached the virtues of death in Islamic struggle as a ticket to paradise.

And he warned Western leaders, "You may kill bin Laden, but the phenomenon, you cannot kill it - you cannot destroy it."

"Our Muslim brothers from abroad will come one day and conquer here and then we will live under Islam in dignity," he said.

Tyler reporting for this article from Luton and Slough, England, and from London. Don Van Natta Jr. reporting from London. Souad Mekhennet contributed reporting from Germany.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Mojo_PeiPei

Scary thing is it could come to be a reality if the white europeans continue their lack of reproduction.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

KellyC

Lebell's option "b" seems fitting for these extremist. I personally would favor it..




Edit: they really pray 5 times a day to Allah?

__________________
Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe?
Me: Shit happens.

Mojo_PeiPei

Isn't it one of the pillars?

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

j8ear

Yes it is one of the five pillars.

On board with option B as well. Let them go down believing that they are serving a higher justified purpose. As long as they go down...

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

Dragonlich

The problem as I see it, is that European politicians don't seem too eager to pass too stringent anti-terror laws. The general consensus seems to be that - in order to not upset the general Muslim community - one cannot single out Muslims as dangerous.

For example, in my country there are calls (from some politicians) to stop perceived anti-Muslim editorials in newspapers, because these tend to anger some Muslim youths, making them feel unwelcome and angry... Sounds reasonable, until you realize that the "anti-Muslim" editorials supposedly includes any negative news involving Muslims.

On the other hand, these people do have a point, in that many Muslim youths feel alienated by the anti-terror campaigns (primarily aimed at their Muslim brothers and sisters), because they feel the side-effects (suspicion, etc). Alienation is one of the things extremists like, because it allows them to recruit these kids.

And on the other other hand, in the eyes of the native Europeans, most of these Muslims are still *guests* in Europe - they were brought over to work here, and they "should be grateful we allow them to stay here". Now, if a small sub-group of those guests then decide they feel a need to kill you, you'd be pretty pissed off too. It doesn't help one bit that some major cities are slowly "being taken over" by immigrants, with some areas effectively becoming no-go areas for natives (or the police), because of violent street gangs.
In short: there's a lot of anger towards those immigrants (primarily youths) that simply cannot seem to follow the rules; these ruin the mood towards the rest.

Yep, it's a rather complex situation we're in...

phyzix525

An Iraqi defector was talking about the islamic militants in a story I have on another thread, he said something I thought was funny and belonged here.

__________________
It's hard to remember we're alive for the first time
It's hard to remember we're alive for the last time
It's hard to remember to live before you die
It's hard to remember that our lives are such a short time
It's hard to remember when it takes such a long time

Robb@EPE

It's tough to speak on this issue without sounding really harsh, but seriously, we need to stop worrying so damn much about Muslims feelings. The violent Muslims are ruining it for their non-violent brethren, because they know that causing the non-Muslim people of the world to HATE Muslims, in turn, causes their non-violent brethren to join their cause.

It's an no win situation, and I'd rather fight it than sit back and wait. If some peace loving Muslim gets offended at me because I'm suspicious of them, too bad. They need to realize that their anger and frustration should be directed at their fellow Muslims that feel it's ok to fly planes into buildings and kill innocent civilians in my country.

Kadath

Fear of a black planet!

__________________
it's quiet in here

tisonlyi

Its bull.

...and i believe most of these publicised meeting of militants are stooges. a way of bringing those with sympathy for bin laden out into the open where the secret services can get a good look at them.

"All muslims will become his sword."

There are a few mad mullahs, but they get all the press.

who wants to write a story about a nice, peaceful meeting of muslims where everyone said violence is wrong and that bin laden is in no way following the teachings of Islam?

Grrr.... Lazy Journalism.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

assilem

What I cannot believe is that Muslims in Europe speak openly about Jihad in their own countries without fear of reprisal from the government. It’s as if the stupid socialists that run most of the European countries just don’t give a shit. I think that in the very near future we will be fighting battles in the streets of the U.S.A. and Europe if we don't start cracking down now.

__________________
The mother of mankind, what time his pride
Had cast him out from Heaven, with all his host
Of rebel Angels

dy156

I bet (and kinda hope that) if this is true, maybe the pendulum will start swinging the other way in western Europe.

There's a blurb in Newsweek about men released from Guantonimo and how British diplomats were pushing for their release because they were British citizens. (subjects?)

Turns out, they were bad guys, after all. I'll try and find the story.

(edit- here it is.)

link

Publius

Ummmm NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! As a matter of FACT! Jihad is NOT!one of the five pillars of Islam. Don't believe everying (anything) you hear on Fox News.

http://www.islam101.com/dawah/pillars.html

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ropillars.html

(and thats just the first two hits from a Google search for: pillars of Islam)

And as for Jihad itself, well I do not think it means what you think it means (great quote there, anyone know where its from? You win a Cookie if you do), or how our "liberal" (and by liberal, I mean neo-nazi) media insist upon using it. Jihad simply means “struggle” and is used most usually to refer to the inner struggle that one had between good and evil.

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/JIHAAD/u...ihad_islam.htm

Now, as for all these religious nuts (like Osama) who keep using Jihad and the Muslim religion to promote their own agenda, they deserve that same fate that everyone who uses religion (Bush) for their own gains deserves, option B

Mojo_PeiPei

We were talking about praying five times a day.

And comparing Osama to Bush is completely off base and incorrect.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

irateplatypus

what, some aren't familiar with its origins?

INCONCEIVABLE!!!

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Publius

My bad, missed the edit by KellyC about prayer, thought we were still talking about Jihad.

As for my comparison between Bush and Osama, is it really that far off track? Not really. Osama uses religion to convince others to attack the US, Bush uses religion to convince others to attack Iraq. Both use religion to promote their own agendas (Not convinced Bush is using religion? Just watch how many times he refers to God in a speech or how many times he goes to churches or religious organization to make his appeal for the war in Iraq, or how many churches are now telling their congregations to vote Bush because of his morally superior stance on social issues).

Mojo_PeiPei

Show me one instance where Bush used religion as a means of attacking Iraq? And I'll agree Bush is a deeply religious man, but he knows his responsibility as President, he's admitted it in interviews.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Publius

Well how about this quote from Bush to the Palestinian PM, "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them." http://bushwatch.org/evangelist.htm
I find this one rather self explanitory.

Or how about this, immediately after talking about toppling Saddam and how well prepared are troops are to do so in his 2003 State of the Union Speech, Bush says “We Americans have faith in ourselves, but not in ourselves alone. We do not know -- we do not claim to know all the ways of Providence, yet we can trust in them, placing our confidence in the loving God behind all of life, and all of history. May He guide us now. ” http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...030128-19.html So basically Bush is stating that God is guiding us in our just war against Saddam.

Or how about the fact that not only does Bush invoke God as his justification for doing almost everything, but the fact that his speeches are laden with spiritual and religious jargon with the express intent of playing off of peoples religious backgrounds. If you want the full skinny on this, simply do a Google search and you will find plenty of instances where Bush uses God and religion to justify not only his war in Iraq, but a great many other things as well.