tecoyah

We got troubles!!

With the mini exodus of Ustwo, and Irateplatapus, we may be losing the ability to hold true debates. Already this board is heavily democratic and if we lose the rest of the reps, it will get quite boring.
Perhaps we can figure out a way to be more civil, and open minded with those that remain. I send a plea to seretogis, mojo pei pei , and others of the republican mindset, Don't let it get to you.
I for one value the ability to hear both sides, and would regret such a loss, as I already do for those who have gone.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

filtherton

I think if there is any lack of civility it is certainly bipartisan. How many anti-kerry articles from obviously biased sources does it take to incite thoughtful discussion? I'm not sure the exact ratio of left-bating to right-bating, but there seems to be a fair amount of both.

Butting heads with other people is only fun until you get a headache. Then, you sit down and consider whether butting heads with people is that useful, if all it gets you is a headache.

That being said, i doubt that it is really a lack civil, openmindedness that causes people to leave. That implies that people argue here for the purposes of enlightenment and learning.

I have noticed several threads where certain people, when faced with the choice between acknowledging that the opposition may be right or removing themselves from the discussion choose to stop participating rather than conceding.

I know i can be quite the jackass at times, but i try to make a conscious effort acknowledge when i realize that i'm on shaky ground argument-wise. The key being that someone has to convince me conclusively that i am wrong. Sitting here, i can't recall a single instance where ustwo has come anywhere close to saying "I was wrong". I know he's a smart guy, but c'mon. He's not the only one either. There are many folks on either side of the aisle who don't concede. That's the nature of political discussion.

This place is a lot more civil than it used to be too. Hellooo? FEL? Eple? Anyone who doubts the civility might want to check out the recent hitler threads to see how far we've come.

Exodus shmexodus, change is the only constant. If people want to leave cause they don't like the game anymore that is their choice. They'll be back the moment their blood boils and their mouths water for conflict and egofights.

Strange Famous

Don't worry, I'm still here and I am deeply and ireconcibly opposed to the ideals of the Democrat party and all of its leaders

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Bill O'Rights

And this from a real Socialist.

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galadrium

As long as there is one conservative, tfp will still be fair and balanced... just ask faux news.

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archer2371

I'm still here, tho I'm less fiery than I was at the beginning of my TFP tenure, nor am I as fiery as Ustwo or irateplatypus. I'm actually, ohmigosh, reasonable! Anyways, this Republican ain't goin anywhere, I like the community here too much to let political differences get in the way of my enjoyment, and I find that while I disagree with quite a few people in here, in other boards (entertainment, gaming, a few others) I agree with, so I have learned to not choose your friends by your politics because you'll be more than likely missing out on a good time.

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ballze

Well this Republican has no use for the other half!

fuzyfuzer

well said
as i see it they are just there to say the opposite of what republicans have to say on most issues

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"The difference between commiment and involvment is like a ham and egg breakfast the chicken was involved but the pig was commited"

"Thrice happy is the nation that has a glorious history. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

HarmlessRabbit

People who choose to argue like UsTwo can leave whenever they want. I never saw those people in a discussion. I saw those members blindly arguing the conservative party line, whatever that line was, and not "debating" anything with anyone.

I'm pretty liberal, but I just finished posting a comment where I defended the Bush Administration for providing media kits to TV stations. I can see both sides of an issue, I can discuss things rationally, I can respond to points that are brought up against my argument, and I can admit when I am wrong.

Those who can't do all of the above can leave whenever they want, in my opinion.

UsTwo might be a fantastic person face-to-face, and I certainly think he, and anyone else, is welcome here whenever they want to have a discussion.

Zeld2.0

/shrug my own belief is if you are simply going to leave because the other side doesn't agree - then good riddance

there isn't much to debate if all you can is your side is right, the other side is wrong, and there is no ground to debate - oh wait, whats this all about again?

just my 2 cents

fuzyfuzer

i have to put in that conservative do tend to be more united behind key issues than many liberals i think it is because liberals tend to want a lot of change and the changes they want are usually different and they want a differnet path that unites them to the same end

i don't know much about UStwo's responses because i am new here but this maybe a misconception

just trying my best to be bypardisan

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"The difference between commiment and involvment is like a ham and egg breakfast the chicken was involved but the pig was commited"

"Thrice happy is the nation that has a glorious history. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

tecoyah

Ah hell.....never mind. With this kind of attitude, guess we are better off if they all leave.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

smooth

My perception has been that conservatives tend to lump everyone they disagree with as left-wing, regardless of whether they are Democrats, socialists, or communists. Even independents are sometimes lumped into "our" camp on some issues. Each of us believe in different paths to a liberal society (that is, one characterized by rational thought and a power based derived from the population rather than elites/rules), but that doesn't mean you should aggregate us into one composite whole and conclude that our lack of cohesion is a flaw or impediment. We aren't a group opposite your beliefs--we each belong to distinct ideological groups in their own right.

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Evil Milkman

If they want to leave, go ahead I suppose. But I can't resist posing my initial reaction to this:

fuzyfuzer

this is good we have each others views of the other from the opposite side

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"The difference between commiment and involvment is like a ham and egg breakfast the chicken was involved but the pig was commited"

"Thrice happy is the nation that has a glorious history. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

Scipio

Perhaps I will start towing the grand old party line instead. Ya know, to keep it balanced? Hell, I started a thread about Reagan!

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"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

onetime2

Anyone who thinks the board is better off without the above mentioned posters is wrong. They bring a certain diversity to the board that it will no longer have.

I have considered leaving more times than I can count.

For those who argue that people are just posting party line drivel as opposed to real opinion, please take the time to consider that assertion. People don't just believe these things because they are on Party letterhead. They typically believe them because the points hit close to their personal beliefs.

Insulting the belief walks the very fine line of insulting the person in many cases.

The sheer number of "left" of center posters here insures that any post either pro Republican or anti Democrat will illicit a heavily negative response.

Go ahead and count up in any given thread how many people take a "Republican" standpoint. Then go through and see how many continue to post their beliefs after the initial opposing "onslaught". There aren't very many. The ones that stay are typically very outspoken and we get almost no middle of the pack Republican posts.

Someone in this thread mentioned the fact that Republicans seem united in their beliefs on this board while Democrats are less focused and have more diverse beliefs. Did anyone stop to think why that is? It's because the politics board is more open to Democratic leaning posters and less welcoming to those with Republican tendencies.

If diversity is important to you then things will need to change. If it's not, well, then we'll stick with very few Republican posters.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

HarmlessRabbit

It's not the belief, it's the delivery. UsTwo, in my opinon, never wanted to discuss anything. He just wanted to post the latest conservative rant and move on. If someone wants to *discuss* their opinion, I'm happy to chat. Seretogis is a great example of a poster who I don't agree with (usually) who I still enjoy having a discussion with. Show me one single post, ever, in which UsTwo considered the opinion of a poster who disagreed with him.

This is a discussion board. I personally rate people here by the degree to which they discuss things. If people just want to have a one way rant, then get a movable type weblog and turn off comments.

A few months ago, I would have said the opposite. BoCoMoFo, Phaenx, Sixate, FEL, UsTwo, you, and others were constantly posting the conservative and republican line. Lebell and Art and Seretogis generally tend to this line as well. When I first started posting here, I thought the Politics board was a conservative bastion and I considered leaving because it was infuriating.

Personally, I'm more than happy to make this board a liberal hang-out. I'll take that as a sign that our side won!

Lebell

If it makes you feel any better, I'm considered to be a liberal commie by some on another board because I support gay marriage and abortion rights.

Aren't labels great?

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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stevie667

my label says wash @ 40c

personally, i think that the heated debates are an integral part of politics (just look at australia), but we can't let them get to us the way we seem to be.
i can say that i've got slighty OTT in some posts, but i don't mean for anyone to take them personally, it's just expressing opinion with a few caps...


and can i ask, if anyone knows the comparision, which party over here would the republicans be, the moment i think i get it sussed, they go and do something completly random like start a war.

james t kirk

Since when has UStwo packed it in.

He's all over the place in here.

Then there's reconmike, don't forget about him.

Haven't seen Liquordealer of late, but he's still around

james t kirk

Likewise, nizzle on the left disappeared due to extreme frustration.

jcookc6

I find it hard to debate a liberal. They think they are always right, that they are the only ones who know, and the only thing they can think about is getting rid of George W. and that there is no other answer..
So I am here to defend conservatism.

Tophat665

People keep saying this like it's a bad thing.

If ultra-conservatives are marginalized, not so much on TFP but in general, then the center will move right under me and I can stop leaning left so hard. The middle is where I really want to be, but the middle has been drifting towards conservatism since at least Reagan, and I really want it back where it belongs.

Without ultra-conservatives running the Republican party, all of a sudden, elections start being about issues again, and stop being about ideology. That's a good thing. Without so many arch-conservatives clouding the argument with ideology, maybe we get to debate issues without having to have every fact gainsaid, and every debate sidetracked into either minutiae or absurd propositions about the merit of the current administration. Incidentally, having a mass exodus of leftwingers would have a similar effect (not identical, but similar), but I wouldn't stick around to enjoy it.

So to have the most ardently conservative republicans here decide to call it quits, I just can't feel too sad about it.

That malady is not limited to liberals (although what passes for a liberal these days is often just an apalled centrist) I offer the following quote from onetime from earlier in the thread as support for that:
Perhaps I am being unfair to onetime here. I read it as a preemptive "you're wrong" with buzzword support (diversity) that I find unconvincing. Losing the fringe of a debate leads to a better debate IMNSHO.

Still, I am rather glad you are both sticking around. By and large, onetime is informative to read, if nearly always at odds with everything I believe to be right and good, and that's a good thing. I haven't read a ton of your posts yet, jcookc6, so next time I run across a thread that interests me and find you there, I will see how you propose to solve the problem under discussion without the removal of our current executive, and, who knows, I might agree with you. Don't bet what you can't afford to lose on that, but I am surely willing to listen.

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gibingus

you goddamn hippie.

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if everyone is thinking alike, chances are no one is thinking.

HarmlessRabbit

well, why don't you start a new thread and let's have a debate! I'd like to put your theory to the test.

Zeld2.0

Though I hate to classify / generalize any group or class, to be fair, by definition what makes most people liberal is being open to changes and new ideas - generally why the trend lately is to go liberal with higher education because that usually requires a person to be more open to thoughts/ideas.

I know its unfair to classify anyone that way, but statistics wise thats the truth.

ARTelevision

I suppose I don't see debating as a significant or necessary way to have discussions. Perhaps that's the issue here. I do notice that many folks seem to enjoy debating other people and that is probably the dominant way that political discussions between opposing views are conducted.

I think I'll create some threads here with the intention of conducting discussions that do not rely on debating things. That would make it more interesting for me.

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create evolution

boatin

And I went a step beyond. I'm an occasional lurker now. During the start of the war I just got tired of being labeled unpatriotic and foolish - so I stopped coming here.

I am poking my head back a little more now, but I can see why people leave.

For what it's worth, I think there are many that "listen" and debate. Sadly, there are many more who don't/can't.

Just anecdotal evidence for something. Just not sure what!

laconic1

I tend to be fairly conservative, and would participate in this forum more, but I tend to have difficulty explaining and defending my points, no matter how strong they are. I'll have to stop in here more.

ganon

Well, whenever I can get to the board and throw in my 2 cents, there will be a conservative voice here. And I don't mind debating, and can get as ugly as any liberal, or stay above board and keep it civil. Personally I see the divide between liberal and conservative philosophy and culture as war, and I am out to win. but it is a war of ideas, not just name calling.

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"My give up, my give up." - Jar Jar Binks

damianjames

Until a few months ago, I would have claimed to be a staunch conservative Republican with absolutely no use for anything or anyone from the Democratic party. I'm seeing myself becoming more centrist as time goes on. I can't help but disagree with a lot of the things I hear and read about the current administration. Pretty disheartening for someone seriously considering a subscription to Bill O'Reilly's web site.

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onetime2

By disagreeing with what you hear and read do you mean the actions of the current administration or the portrayals of the actions? Just wondering.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

damianjames

The actions... such as the whole good 'ole boy network of industry getting federal contracts. I feel like the presidency has become a position to be bought by proxy. I'm one of the nameless rabble of victims of the tech market crash, and the area I live in is more depressed economically than the majority of the nation. Colin Powell telling India he has no problem with them continuing to accept outsourced jobs from the U.S. really rubbed me the wrong way. Protectionism isn't always a bad thing.

But, perception is often reality. It could be the sources reporting these items that affect the way I feel distorting fact, twisting it to their own end.

For instance, NPR is widely recognized as decidedly liberal; Fox News is recognized as conservative. Both call themselves objective, but people have opinions, including those that report the news.

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Visualize Whirled Peas.

onetime2

I can understand those who disagree with the actions of the administration in regards to personal freedoms and spending and maybe a few other areas, but I have to respectfully disagree with your quarrels with the admin with regard to job exports and government contracts. The contracts were predominantly awarded in a completely competitive bidding process and the companies that got them have a long history of doing good work I'm sure they have been guilty of overcharging in the past and will into the future as just about every government contractor is. The government simply has a terrible track record of oversight and they are doing little to change it.

Protectionism to halt job migration will only hurt the nation and you in the future. There's no easy way around it.

I don't think you can have unbiased media. Those investigating stories, reporting them, making the decisions on which are run and/or followed up on all have beliefs and their biases will enter into the equation. IMO, the only way to view stories is through questioning eyes based around your experiences and beliefs. Of course this won't be unbiased as your own beliefs enter the picture.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

losthellhound

If indeed people have left the board, I will miss them. I never really agreed with Ustwo, but his views raised my hackles and got me thinking, got me debating..

However, did they say they were leaving? Or is someone jumping the gun because they haven't posted in a day?

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"Life is possible only with illusions. And so, the question for the science of mental health must become an absolutely new and revolutionary one, yet one that reflects the essence of the human condition: On what level of illusion does one live?"
-- Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death

onetime2

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=49116

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

losthellhound

well, everyone needs a break every once and awhile. Im sure they will be coaxed back

__________________
"Life is possible only with illusions. And so, the question for the science of mental health must become an absolutely new and revolutionary one, yet one that reflects the essence of the human condition: On what level of illusion does one live?"
-- Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death

losthellhound

On second thought.. I did want to mention one thing that bugs me about this post..

The post implies that the republicans are leaving the board and because of that, we cannot hold debate because democrats hold sway. I find the idea of this interesting because it assumes we are all a part of the same country. I would like to remind people that not everyone here is American. So, therefore we have members of the: COnservative party of Canada, the NDP, the Bloc Quebecois, the Alliance Party of Canada, we have British Labour Party, British National, Republican.. we have alot of views here

I think we can continue debating just fine..

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"Life is possible only with illusions. And so, the question for the science of mental health must become an absolutely new and revolutionary one, yet one that reflects the essence of the human condition: On what level of illusion does one live?"
-- Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death