powerclown

Unbelievable

What can one rationally make of this?

Bizarre on so many levels...

Lebell

Please post content and not just links.

Thanks

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Hajj stampede: 244 pilgrims dead
Sunday, February 1, 2004 Posted: 9:38 AM EST (1438 GMT)



The stampede happened Sunday during a stone-throwing ritual

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MECCA, Saudi Arabia (CNN) -- A stampede Sunday morning killed 244 Muslim pilgrims and injured another 244 at a stone-throwing ritual which has been the source of deadly tramplings in the past, according to Saudi's health minister.

The incident happened around 9 a.m. (0600 GMT) during the annual Hajj pilgrimage. The health minister said the stampede lasted for about 27 minutes before the crowd was brought under control. The stoning ritual has since resumed.

Seven of those hurt were seriously injured.

The pilgrims traveled from the Muslim holy city of Mecca to Mina to cast small pebbles at three columns of stone that symbolize the devil.

An estimated 2 million pilgrims are attending this year's Hajj.

Last year, 36 pilgrims were trampled to death, most of them en route to the devil stoning ritual.

In 2001, a stampede at the same ritual killed 35.

Muslims across the globe make the annual Hajj pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia, where they worship at Islam's holiest sites. The five-day journey -- which every adult Muslim must take at least once if possible -- began Jan. 31.

The gathering of millions is often the scene of deadly stampedes and other violence.

The most deadly Hajj-related incident was a 1990 stampede in which 1,426 pilgrims were killed.

Here is a breakdown of other violent incidents at the annual Muslim pilgrimage:

1998 - 180 people died in a stampede near Mecca at the end of the Hajj;

1997 - A fire in Mina tore through the sprawling, overcrowded tent city , trapping and killing more than 340 pilgrims and injuring 1,500;

1994 - a stampede kills 270 pilgrims;

1991 - a chartered airliner carrying pilgrims home to Nigeria crashed, killing 261;

1991 - a plane crash in northern Saudi Arabia killed 91 Senegalese soldiers returning from a trip to Mecca which had been a reward for their service in the U.S.-led coalition that drove Iraqi forces from Kuwait in the Gulf War a month earlier;

1989 - bombs exploded near the Grand Mosque in Mecca, killing one pilgrim and wounding 16 others;

1987 - some 400 people, mainly Iranian Shi'ite pilgrims, were killed in clashes with Saudi security forces during anti-Western protests in Mecca.

-- CNN Correspondent Rym Brahimi and Producer Ayman Mohyeldin contributed to this report

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Sparhawk

It's what happens when you get 2 million people in such a cramped space. I'd say that the religious nature of it is completely unrelated, just ask any fire marshall - one thing goes wrong in a crowd like that, and panic spreads like wildfire.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

milkyp

bleh, what a horrible way to die

powerclown

Re-read it...its religious ritual/fervor.
This violence simply doesn't occur, for instance, at Disneyland, Superbowl, Olympics, Rose Bowl, Carnivale in Rio, Indy500, etc..

jcookc6

I heard today that if you die at Hajj you go straight to heaven

chavos

from http://www.bluemud.org/article/23345

its a tragedy...and it is fueled by religious fervor, but its not unique to the islamic world. i mean, people died for the Who...its a factor of the size of the crowd, bad planning, and some bad luck.

Tophat665

Man, it's a damn good thing the Who wasn't playing too.

Sorry, I just got back from a Catholic funeral, and, though I realize that many people get a lot out of them, this ritualistic, superstitious folderal either leaves me chuckling in a self satisfied kind of a way or fuming at the time and resources wasted. I really can't feel too bad for folks killed at a ritual in which it seems some folks get killed every other year or so at least.

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Ustwo

I've been in crowds of over a million people and there were not deaths like this. Its the nature of the event in this case where everyone is pushing to get to one spot which causes the problem, not just the size of the crowd.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ARTelevision

This from an AP version of the story:

Safety measures were in place at the site - one where fatal stampedes have been frequent - but "caution isn't stronger than fate," said Saudi Hajj Minister Iyad Madani. "All precautions were taken to prevent such an incident, but this is God's will."

.................

It's "God's will," I guess...

__________________
create evolution

Superbelt

No one here has ever been the the kind of packing-in that happens on Haaj. There are hundreds of thousands going through the paces in one religious event, such as stoning the devil.

This is European football x50. People die every other week in the crouds of european football matches.

Just gotta get the mix of human density + excitement.

powerclown

Source
The "Manual"

inkriminator

Powerclown, what statement were you trying to make?

Tophat665

Powerclown, disguised human sacrifice is the first thing that popped into my head when I heard how often this goes on. Of course, I kind of blew it off with a "nobody's that crazy any more", but that's just my much trampled optimism making a break for it. (Back in your cage, you sniveling, simpering bastard! *Shhhhwih Crack!*)

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

The_Dude

crazy religious whackos :P

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

powerclown

Justification for the Iraq War.

Boo

Ever wonder if religion is the root of all evil?

__________________
Back button again, I must be getting old.

KellyC

No..girls and money is...

back to the stampede...god damn! have some control people!

Do they NOT watch where they're going or something?

__________________
Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe?
Me: Shit happens.

Dostoevsky

I think a lot of it has to do with the level of religious fanaticism prevalent among some Muslims. I don't mean for this to be taken the wrong way, I know not all Muslims are crazy and that every religion has its zealots. It seems to me that Muslims living in the 3rd world are the very craziest, least predictable people on earth though. That's just my opinion and I sincerely hope that I haven't offended anyone.

__________________
Pride is the recognition of the fact that you are your own highest value and, like all of man’s values, it has to be earned.


It is not advisable, James, to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listener.

Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

losthellhound

Its not a matter of fanatacism, its a matter of a million people trying to do something all at once.. Its poor planning.

__________________
"Life is possible only with illusions. And so, the question for the science of mental health must become an absolutely new and revolutionary one, yet one that reflects the essence of the human condition: On what level of illusion does one live?"
-- Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death

Dostoevsky

Don't you think that rationale people would realize that the current Hajj system isn't working and that it should be reviewed?

The Hajj minister in Saudi Arabia comments: "All precautions were taken to prevent such an incident, but this is God's will. Caution isn't stronger than fate."

I think there is a little more to the situation than a lot of people packed in a tight space. People continue to die every year there.

__________________
Pride is the recognition of the fact that you are your own highest value and, like all of man’s values, it has to be earned.


It is not advisable, James, to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listener.

Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

Sparhawk

Clearly you've never been to Singapore.

<img src=http://images.chron.com/content/news/photos/03/07/09/rpirates.jpg>

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

teriaki

Ok, first thing I thought was:

"Who farted?"

__________________
Cute, but useless.

dimbulb

Actually, its hardly a 3rd world country. Much closer to Boston/Manhattan than to hmm...say New Delhi...

infinitely better education (at least for high school and below) than the US. Your top colleges remain world class, for now....
comparable (in quality) and infinitely cheaper health care system.

Pretty good religious and racial harmony, and a not a very strong social divide. But of course, you're right. Muslims in Singapore are just like everyone else. Not much in the way of fanaticism there.

HarmlessRabbit

The USA has its share of religious kooks, so I wouldn't be so quick to condemn Muslims. Off the top of my head:

- Waco (6 dead)
- Heaven's Gate cult (39 dead)
- Jim Jones (400 dead)

Take a good look in the mirror before you condemn a whole culture. I'd say that the USA is one of the more fanatical nations. Look at the highly placed officials like Ashcroft pushing a religious agenda, or that general in Iraq saying that the muslims are following Satan.

Mojo_PeiPei

People die at the Hajj in mass numbers yearly. And going to the hajj is a part of Islam, its part of the foundation. Last time I checked cults waiting for spaceships and christians drinking kool-aid weren't the norm.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Zeld2.0

Last time I checked neither religion is innocent of its own forms of killing throught their pasts.

P.S. Unless you're Islamic and not another pro-everything Christian guy, you have little room to say anything on another religion from which your sources are the internet.

Sparhawk

Wasn't expecting a serious response to my attempt at humor, but thanks for the info about Singapore. The last I heard about the place was when a diplomat's kid got caned.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."