Will there ever be a totally neutral independent 9-11 investigation? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Bookman · 01-28-2004, 10:21 AM

How has the biggest accident/disaster/attack on American soil go so unexplained? Has this lack of truth been lost in the shuffle?
The evidence was sold off (the smoldering steel).
Inquiries have been blocked.
Do any of you think this is odd or a I again a needle in the hay?

Liquor Dealer · 01-28-2004, 10:44 AM

How much more explanation do you need. Airplanes were flown into the buildings - extreme heat from burning fuel caused catastrophic failure in the steel structure of the building and it collapsed. Money can be spent in re-investigating this until Hell freezes over and there will be no other explanation - Try reciting Humpty Dumpty over and over again and see if you reach any conclusion other than that expressed - They fell down and all the king's horses and all of the king's men aren't going to ever make the towers stand again. They are gone. You can look at the scrap steel through any type of device available and will find it is no different than any other steel ever made - get it too hot and it loses it's strength.

Bookman · 01-28-2004, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
How much more explanation do you need. Airplanes were flown into the buildings - extreme heat from burning fuel caused catastrophic failure in the steel structure of the building and it collapsed. Money can be spent in re-investigating this until Hell freezes over and there will be no other explanation - Try reciting Humpty Dumpty over and over again and see if you reach any conclusion other than that expressed - They fell down and all the king's horses and all of the king's men aren't going to ever make the towers stand again. They are gone. You can look at the scrap steel through any type of device available and will find it is no different than any other steel ever made - get it too hot and it loses iit's strength.

Well you have your recital down cold but you are not part of the parties (like those representing those slain at WTC) who have pushed for probes.
I presume you are not concerned and I appreciate your reply...Later.

ubertuber · 01-28-2004, 11:56 AM

I'm sorry Bookman, I don't understand what explanation you are looking for... I really mean that. Are you talking about intelligence failures, i.e. how did we not see it coming? Or do you mean investigation into Bush's actions afterwards? Or are you someone that believes there was some sort of conspiracy with our government involved? Until you say more clearly what you mean it is hard to discuss this in any more detail than LD just did.

Bookman · 01-28-2004, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ubertuber
I'm sorry Bookman, I don't understand what explanation you are looking for... I really mean that. Are you talking about intelligence failures, i.e. how did we not see it coming? Or do you mean investigation into Bush's actions afterwards? Or are you someone that believes there was some sort of conspiracy with our government involved? Until you say more clearly what you mean it is hard to discuss this in any more detail than LD just did.

I feel that in any other instance people in general would require more detail into what happened. An example...who fell asleep at NORAD (they defend/monitor the N.American Skies) that AM? In most other cases we would know him/her...everything incl. drug history, etc etc, it would be great for Jenny Jones and the smut shows/papers. In this case we have yet to learn who these people were..what were their reactions? like we learned from everyone else who was interviewed..these people and their testimonies helped spread Patriotism and Fear but no real answers. This is one instance I am citing.

I can state that I feel like there isnt enough explanation. I cant say there is a conspiracy..you need to prove that and it is futile these days to even try without proof.

There are many questions which are not addressed.
See the questions option on the left side menu on
This Page for many other questions.

Mojo_PeiPei · 01-28-2004, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bookman
I feel that in any other instance people in general would require more detail into what happened. An example...who fell asleep at NORAD (they defend/monitor the N.American Skies) that AM?

What does NORAD have to do with anything??? They are there to make sure that the Red's don't launch missles at us, not to determine if civilian airplanes have been hijacked. I mean you could maybe make a case as to why the FAA didn't do something, but NORAD? Get serious.

Liquor Dealer · 01-28-2004, 12:21 PM

Bookman, I understand your angst but NORAD would have had absolutely no reason to be concerned with what scheduled flights of airliners were doing on that, or on any other morning in our history. These planes were doing nothing out of the ordinary until they suddenly altered course. Our, and no one else's defense systems are capable of predicting the future or in reading men's minds. I was in no way belittling the events of 9-11. It was a terrible castrophe in the history of our nation - it did not only effect those who were directly touched, it altered the lives of all Americans everywhere. We have been touched by the action of terrorists - all of us, and that simply isn't acceptable. Will an investigation alter the facts of the events of 9-11? I don't think so. Will the events of 9-11 alter our conduct in the future? I certainly hope so.

tecoyah · 01-28-2004, 12:32 PM

I think I understand the type of investigation you are expecting, and sadly you wont see it during this administration....might make someone look bad, or worse.

Bookman · 01-28-2004, 12:34 PM

Give me a tad to confirm whether or not NORAD is responsible for any aircraft that do no respond (in our case being hi-jacked). If they dont you have got me and I am not afraid to be wrong.

The story of Payne Stewart comes to mind here (RIP).

Be back soon.

Liquor Dealer · 01-28-2004, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tecoyah
I think I understand the type of investigation you are expecting, and sadly you wont see it during this administration....might make someone look bad, or worse.

Can you substantiate a single word of that? That is total bullshit and you know it.

Bookman · 01-28-2004, 12:52 PM

I wont post links to articles which are not on CREDENTIALED websites; these are always criticized in debate and it is not worth my time to try to convince anyone of their validity...if you cant see it yourself the.
So, Maybe I should have used the FAA as my example, it still does not take away from my point. Whoever stuck their thumb up their butt that morning...WHO IS THAT PERSON.
Try Google searching "Payne Stewart....with FAA or NORAD" etc etc. Standard procedure...no plane may go without contact, THAT IS KNOWN. The second 9-11 plane should have been shot down. But somewhere..someone was sleeping or ordered to stand down. Make what you want to out of it but this makes sense...and there should have been a probe.

Liquor Dealer · 01-28-2004, 01:06 PM

Bookman, Stewart's plane was being tracked because it was in trouble - It was out of control - and had been for quite some time - They were tracking it to make sure it didn't come down in the middle of a city or something. Today, an aircraft that gets drastically off course or doesn't respond to a radio transmission will soon find itself with the company an F-15 or something - that is because of 9-11. Prior to that it would not have stirred up a lot of excitemment.

Bookman · 01-28-2004, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
Bookman, Stewart's plane was being tracked because it was in trouble - It was out of control - and had been for quite some time - They were tracking it to make sure it didn't come down in the middle of a city or something. Today, an aircraft that gets drastically off course or doesn't respond to a radio transmission will soon find itself with the company an F-15 or something - that is because of 9-11. Prior to that it would not have stirred up a lot of excitemment.

Apparently we have read differing stories. I understand that there was no response from that plane (or one could sloppily assume that it was out of control?!?!?) ANYWHO..so if I would take what you said to my internal PC I would think that it WAS Ok to go around flying not responding to FAA but not OK to be out of control.
Stewarts plane flew for HOURS before it crashed BTW.

Liquor Dealer · 01-28-2004, 01:18 PM

Accident No.: DCA00MA005
Operator or Flight Number: Sunjet Aviation
Aircraft and Registration: Learjet Model 35, N47BA
Location: Aberdeen, South Dakota
Date: October 25, 1999

SUMMARY

On October 25, 1999, about 1213 central daylight time (CDT), a Learjet Model 35, N47BA, operated by Sunjet Aviation, Inc., of Sanford, Florida, crashed near Aberdeen, South Dakota. The airplane departed Orlando, Florida, for Dallas, Texas, about 0920 eastern daylight time (EDT). Radio contact with the flight was lost north of Gainesville, Florida, after air traffic control (ATC) cleared the airplane to flight level (FL) 390. The airplane was intercepted by several U.S. Air Force (USAF) and Air National Guard (ANG) aircraft as it proceeded northwestbound. The military pilots in a position to observe the accident airplane at close range stated (in interviews or via radio transmissions) that the forward windshields of the Learjet seemed to be frosted or covered with condensation. The military pilots could not see into the cabin. They did not observe any structural anomaly or other unusual condition. The military pilots observed the airplane depart controlled flight and spiral to the ground, impacting an open field. All occupants on board the airplane (the captain, first officer, and four passengers) were killed, and the airplane was destroyed.

HISTORY OF FLIGHT

On October 25, 1999, the flight crew was scheduled to begin a 2-day trip sequence consisting of five flights. The flights on the first day were to be from Orlando Sanford International Airport (SFB), Sanford, Florida, to Orlando International Airport (MCO), Orlando, Florida; from MCO to Dallas-Love Field Airport (DAL), Dallas, Texas; and from DAL to William P. Hobby Airport, Houston, Texas.

The first flight of the day, a visual flight rules positioning flight operating under 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91, was scheduled to depart SFB about 0800 EDT bound for MCO, which is approximately 15 nautical miles (nm) away. According to the Sunjet Aviation customer service representative on duty at SFB on the day of the accident, the captain reported for duty at SFB about 0630 EDT, and the first officer arrived about 0645 EDT. She stated that both pilots were in a good mood and appeared to be in good health.

A Sunjet Aviation line service technician stated that the captain asked him to pull the airplane out of the hangar, fuel it to 5,300 pounds fuel weight, connect a ground power unit to the airplane, and put a snack basket and cooler1 on the airplane. The first officer arrived at the airplane just before the fueling process started and stayed in the cockpit while the airplane was being fueled. The first officer then went inside the terminal building while the captain performed the preflight inspection of the airplane.

About 0725 EDT, an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed with the St. Petersburg Automated Flight Service Station for the second flight of the day, MCO to DAL, which would operate under 14 CFR Part 135. The flight plan indicated that N47BA was scheduled to depart MCO about 0900 EDT; follow a route over Cross City, Florida, to 32 degrees, 51 minutes north and 96 degrees, 51 minutes west; and proceed directly to DAL. The requested altitude was 39,000 feet.2 The flight plan also indicated that there would be five persons on board (two pilots and three passengers) and 4 hours and 45 minutes of fuel.

According to a witness, the accident airplane departed SFB about 0754 EDT. The flight arrived at MCO about 0810 EDT. An Aircraft Service International Group employee at MCO stated that after the airplane arrived, the captain told him that they were picking up passengers and did not require additional fuel. According to this witness, the passengers arrived about 30 minutes later and boarded the airplane. The Sunjet Aviation director of operations indicated that an additional passenger who was not on the original charter flight request boarded the accident airplane at MCO. Several bags were placed on board the airplane, including what the Aircraft Service International Group employee described as a big golf bag weighing about 30 pounds.

According to ATC radio transmissions, the flight departed MCO about 0919 EDT bound for DAL. At 0921:46 EDT, the flight contacted the Jacksonville Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) and reported climbing through an altitude of 9,500 feet to 14,000 feet.3

At 0921:51 EDT, the controller instructed N47BA to climb and maintain FL 260. N47BA acknowledged the clearance by stating, "two six zero bravo alpha." At 0923:16 EDT, the controller cleared N47BA direct to Cross City and then direct to DAL. N47BA acknowledged the clearance. At 0926:48 EDT, N47BA was issued instructions to change radio frequency and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. N47BA acknowledged the frequency change.

At 0927:10 EDT, N47BA called the Jacksonville ARTCC controller and stated that the flight was climbing through an altitude of FL 230. At 0927:13 EDT, the controller instructed N47BA to climb and maintain FL 390. At 0927:18 EDT, N47BA acknowledged the clearance by stating, "three nine zero bravo alpha." This was the last known radio transmission from the airplane.4 The sound of the cabin altitude aural warning5 was not heard on the ATC recording of this transmission.6

At 0933:38 EDT (6 minutes and 20 seconds after N47BA acknowledged the previous clearance), the controller instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. The controller received no response from N47BA. The controller called the flight five more times over the next 4 1/2 minutes but received no response.

About 0952 CDT,7 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA.8 About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet,9 the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response. About 1000 CDT, the test pilot began a visual inspection of N47BA. There was no visible damage to the airplane, and he did not see ice accumulation on the exterior of the airplane. Both engines were running, and the rotating beacon was on. He stated that he could not see inside the passenger section of the airplane because the windows seemed to be dark. Further, he stated that the entire right cockpit windshield was opaque, as if condensation or ice covered the inside. He also indicated that the left cockpit windshield was opaque, although several sections of the center of the windshield seemed to be only thinly covered by condensation or ice; a small rectangular section of the windshield was clear, with only a small section of the glare shield visible through this area. He did not see any flight control movement. About 1012 CDT, he concluded his inspection of N47BA and proceeded to Scott AFB, Illinois.

About 1113 CDT, two Oklahoma ANG F-16s with the identification "TULSA 13 flight" were vectored to intercept the accident airplane by the Minneapolis ARTCC. The TULSA 13 lead pilot reported to the Minneapolis ARTCC controller that he could not see any movement in the cockpit. About 1125 CDT, the TULSA 13 lead pilot reported that the windshield was dark and that he could not tell if the windshield was iced.

About 1133 CDT, a TULSA 13 airplane maneuvered in front of the accident airplane, and the pilot reported, "we're not seeing anything inside, could be just a dark cockpit though...he is not reacting, moving or anything like that he should be able to have seen us by now."

About 1138 CDT, the TULSA 13 lead pilot stated, "my wingman is going to make a final pass and then we are going ..............

This goes on and on - As soon as the plane got into trouble they were all over it - they followed it until it rand out of fuel and crashed. They would have shot it down if it had become a thgreat to a populated area.

Bookman · 01-28-2004, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
Accident No.: DCA00MA005
Operator or Flight Number: Sunjet Aviation
Aircraft and Registration: Learjet Model 35, N47BA
Location: Aberdeen, South Dakota
Date: October 25, 1999

SUMMARY

On October 25, 1999, about 1213 central daylight time (CDT), a Learjet Model 35, N47BA, operated by Sunjet Aviation, Inc., of Sanford, Florida, crashed near Aberdeen, South Dakota. The airplane departed Orlando, Florida, for Dallas, Texas, about 0920 eastern daylight time (EDT). Radio contact with the flight was lost north of Gainesville, Florida, after air traffic control (ATC) cleared the airplane to flight level (FL) 390. The airplane was intercepted by several U.S. Air Force (USAF) and Air National Guard (ANG) aircraft as it proceeded northwestbound. The military pilots in a position to observe the accident airplane at close range stated (in interviews or via radio transmissions) that the forward windshields of the Learjet seemed to be frosted or covered with condensation. The military pilots could not see into the cabin. They did not observe any structural anomaly or other unusual condition. The military pilots observed the airplane depart controlled flight and spiral to the ground, impacting an open field. All occupants on board the airplane (the captain, first officer, and four passengers) were killed, and the airplane was destroyed.

HISTORY OF FLIGHT

On October 25, 1999, the flight crew was scheduled to begin a 2-day trip sequence consisting of five flights. The flights on the first day were to be from Orlando Sanford International Airport (SFB), Sanford, Florida, to Orlando International Airport (MCO), Orlando, Florida; from MCO to Dallas-Love Field Airport (DAL), Dallas, Texas; and from DAL to William P. Hobby Airport, Houston, Texas.

The first flight of the day, a visual flight rules positioning flight operating under 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91, was scheduled to depart SFB about 0800 EDT bound for MCO, which is approximately 15 nautical miles (nm) away. According to the Sunjet Aviation customer service representative on duty at SFB on the day of the accident, the captain reported for duty at SFB about 0630 EDT, and the first officer arrived about 0645 EDT. She stated that both pilots were in a good mood and appeared to be in good health.

A Sunjet Aviation line service technician stated that the captain asked him to pull the airplane out of the hangar, fuel it to 5,300 pounds fuel weight, connect a ground power unit to the airplane, and put a snack basket and cooler1 on the airplane. The first officer arrived at the airplane just before the fueling process started and stayed in the cockpit while the airplane was being fueled. The first officer then went inside the terminal building while the captain performed the preflight inspection of the airplane.

About 0725 EDT, an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed with the St. Petersburg Automated Flight Service Station for the second flight of the day, MCO to DAL, which would operate under 14 CFR Part 135. The flight plan indicated that N47BA was scheduled to depart MCO about 0900 EDT; follow a route over Cross City, Florida, to 32 degrees, 51 minutes north and 96 degrees, 51 minutes west; and proceed directly to DAL. The requested altitude was 39,000 feet.2 The flight plan also indicated that there would be five persons on board (two pilots and three passengers) and 4 hours and 45 minutes of fuel.

According to a witness, the accident airplane departed SFB about 0754 EDT. The flight arrived at MCO about 0810 EDT. An Aircraft Service International Group employee at MCO stated that after the airplane arrived, the captain told him that they were picking up passengers and did not require additional fuel. According to this witness, the passengers arrived about 30 minutes later and boarded the airplane. The Sunjet Aviation director of operations indicated that an additional passenger who was not on the original charter flight request boarded the accident airplane at MCO. Several bags were placed on board the airplane, including what the Aircraft Service International Group employee described as a big golf bag weighing about 30 pounds.

According to ATC radio transmissions, the flight departed MCO about 0919 EDT bound for DAL. At 0921:46 EDT, the flight contacted the Jacksonville Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) and reported climbing through an altitude of 9,500 feet to 14,000 feet.3

At 0921:51 EDT, the controller instructed N47BA to climb and maintain FL 260. N47BA acknowledged the clearance by stating, "two six zero bravo alpha." At 0923:16 EDT, the controller cleared N47BA direct to Cross City and then direct to DAL. N47BA acknowledged the clearance. At 0926:48 EDT, N47BA was issued instructions to change radio frequency and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. N47BA acknowledged the frequency change.

At 0927:10 EDT, N47BA called the Jacksonville ARTCC controller and stated that the flight was climbing through an altitude of FL 230. At 0927:13 EDT, the controller instructed N47BA to climb and maintain FL 390. At 0927:18 EDT, N47BA acknowledged the clearance by stating, "three nine zero bravo alpha." This was the last known radio transmission from the airplane.4 The sound of the cabin altitude aural warning5 was not heard on the ATC recording of this transmission.6

At 0933:38 EDT (6 minutes and 20 seconds after N47BA acknowledged the previous clearance), the controller instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. The controller received no response from N47BA. The controller called the flight five more times over the next 4 1/2 minutes but received no response.

About 0952 CDT,7 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA.8 About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet,9 the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response. About 1000 CDT, the test pilot began a visual inspection of N47BA. There was no visible damage to the airplane, and he did not see ice accumulation on the exterior of the airplane. Both engines were running, and the rotating beacon was on. He stated that he could not see inside the passenger section of the airplane because the windows seemed to be dark. Further, he stated that the entire right cockpit windshield was opaque, as if condensation or ice covered the inside. He also indicated that the left cockpit windshield was opaque, although several sections of the center of the windshield seemed to be only thinly covered by condensation or ice; a small rectangular section of the windshield was clear, with only a small section of the glare shield visible through this area. He did not see any flight control movement. About 1012 CDT, he concluded his inspection of N47BA and proceeded to Scott AFB, Illinois.

About 1113 CDT, two Oklahoma ANG F-16s with the identification "TULSA 13 flight" were vectored to intercept the accident airplane by the Minneapolis ARTCC. The TULSA 13 lead pilot reported to the Minneapolis ARTCC controller that he could not see any movement in the cockpit. About 1125 CDT, the TULSA 13 lead pilot reported that the windshield was dark and that he could not tell if the windshield was iced.

About 1133 CDT, a TULSA 13 airplane maneuvered in front of the accident airplane, and the pilot reported, "we're not seeing anything inside, could be just a dark cockpit though...he is not reacting, moving or anything like that he should be able to have seen us by now."

About 1138 CDT, the TULSA 13 lead pilot stated, "my wingman is going to make a final pass and then we are going ..............

This goes on and on - As soon as the plane got into trouble they were all over it - they followed it until it rand out of fuel and crashed. They would have shot it down if it had become a thgreat to a populated area.

This is great and I feel that it supports the point that I am trying to make....WHY DIDNT THIS HAPPEN on 9-11?
The page I linked above has many other questions which remain unanswered...all I been saying and wondering if anyone else agrees.

Liquor Dealer · 01-28-2004, 01:50 PM

They were not in trouble to an extent that it attracted the attention of the controllers until it was too late - the Stewart thing didn't happen in an instant - it went on and on...

archer2371 · 01-28-2004, 02:17 PM

Apparently Bookman, you don't understand the concepts behind RADAR. RADAR doesn't work off of beaming a signal off of an object and locating it that way. RADAR works by transponder signals, these transponder signals were turned off and no one had a way of knowing where the hell these planes were going. I hope that answers your questions about the FAA or NORAD, or whatever you have about scrambling fighters to intercept these planes, simply, they couldn't locate them because the transponders on the planes were turned off, the case was not so in the accident that killed Payne Stewart.
As far as intelligence failures are concerned, you can thank the cuts in funding and HUMINT and other programs of the intelligence community for that. It's plain and simple, you restrict the number of sources you have to gain critical information and you won't gain that information until after the fact. I don't need an independent investigation to tell me that.

seretogis · 01-28-2004, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bookman
it would be great for Jenny Jones and the smut shows/papers.

WHAT?! Jenny Jones isn't getting the information that she deserves for her daytime show? I demand an investigation!

illesturban · 01-28-2004, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ubertuber
I'm sorry Bookman, I don't understand what explanation you are looking for... I really mean that. Are you talking about intelligence failures, i.e. how did we not see it coming? Or do you mean investigation into Bush's actions afterwards? Or are you someone that believes there was some sort of conspiracy with our government involved? Until you say more clearly what you mean it is hard to discuss this in any more detail than LD just did.

How about why the fact that our country's biggest domestic attack of modern times came and went without resolution. We somehow managed to start another war with another country, take over that country, kick out their ruler, later FIND that ruler and imprison him, supposedly looking for some kind of weapons of mass destruction that *gasp* haven't been found while hundreds of our soldiers die. Meanwhile, Osama Bin-Fuckin-Ladin is chillin' havin' a honky-dory good damn time in a cave in Afghanistan somewhere.

Whatever happened to our priority to find him? And I find it mighty suspect that a man who once controled the fate of his own citizens basically with the flick of a wrist was found in a little ass hole with a PISTOL and offered no resistance when caught.

Hey Bookman, don't worry, I'm sure we'll have Osama in custody just in time for Bush to catch his re-election votes.

Conclamo Ludus · 01-28-2004, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by illesturban

Hey Bookman, don't worry, I'm sure we'll have Osama in custody just in time for Bush to catch his re-election votes.

And he would've gotten away with it if it weren't for us meddling kids.

Perhaps were just looking for an investigation that will find GWB to be Satan incarnate. Should we throw in the 2000 election woes too? How about how he got into Yale? An investigation into 911 that is looking to place blame on George is hardly looking for the truth.

911 is a perfect example of us all getting a little too cozy as masters of the free world. It was a tragic slap in the face to our openness. It showed us all that we could be hurt. It wasn't Bush's opus to Hussein, or because we have been more tolerant of homosexuals in this country as Falwell would imply. It was pretty much as simple as Liquor Dealer explained it. We didn't deserve it. We as a society fell asleep at the radar. Before 911 we didn't need to be awake. How often do you check your car's brake line to see if its cut before you drive away? You probably would every time if it happened to you. But since it hasn't, I doubt you do. Nobody expected 911 to happen. How many other things can we not expect? Will it be our fault for not expecting them? No, but after being burned once, we can do everything in our power to not be burned again.

illesturban · 01-28-2004, 04:01 PM

^but my point is, why has 911 fallen off as far as our priorities go? It's now like nothing is even being done anymore to try to catch Osama or find the people behind this. At least the administration isn't doing a good job of letting the american people know this. In a way I feel bad for those who lost loved ones in 9/11. Not only is there no resolution over 2 years later, but it seems as the government isn't really making it a priority to find one.

Bookman · 01-28-2004, 04:07 PM

After crash WTC #1...there were planes which were un-accounted for. Why didnt the military scramble jets?
WTC..the Pentagon...then 93 which I remember was reported SHOT DOWN. I know many people who remember that report...FALSE OR NOT.

An investigation to find GWB as SATAN?? The truth nothing more nothing less.

Ustwo · 01-28-2004, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Conclamo Ludus
And he would've gotten away with it if it weren't for us meddling kids.

Brilliant

Sun Tzu · 01-28-2004, 07:49 PM

Long live the Warren Commission.

Can you believe everything you read?

If not; is it a matter of investigating the sources of who creates the history books we study growing up

That goes into the whys and for what reasons; and who can a person trust- the truth becomes merely selective interpretation

Seaver · 01-28-2004, 08:54 PM

Quote:

An example...who fell asleep at NORAD (they defend/monitor the N.American Skies) that AM?

Well Archer was kinda-right here. According to laws passed in the 80s there are no air-search radars in the continental US, only doppler used for weather. Idendification Friend or Foe pods (IFF) are what are used to control them. The civilian version send out altitude, direction, and speed, everything you need to drive the tin. These IFF civilian pods are handed out to the entire world, anyone who needs one. The problem is because there is no active radar within the US when the terrorists disabled the IFF pods they were effectively stealthed, we couldnt see where they were.

Of course this has changed, the instant aircraft stop replying over the radio, or IFF goes down fighters are immediately scrambled... which brought on this question.

Quote:

After crash WTC #1...there were planes which were un-accounted for. Why didnt the military scramble jets?

Quite simply because the order didnt come soon enough. Any commander that ordered military units against US civilians without specific orders to do so could and should recieve immediate reprimand and court martial.

Civilian leaders have since then created specific rules to fly and intercept any aircraft that IFF/radar are not replying. Would you honestly be comfterble with a military that would move on US citizens without civilian orders?

kiwiman · 01-28-2004, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bookman
An investigation to find GWB as SATAN?? The truth nothing more nothing less.

I find it hard to believe that Bush is Saddam's homosexual lover.

Watch South Park.

smooth · 01-29-2004, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seaver
Well Archer was kinda-right here. According to laws passed in the 80s there are no air-search radars in the continental US, only doppler used for weather. Idendification Friend or Foe pods (IFF) are what are used to control them. The civilian version send out altitude, direction, and speed, everything you need to drive the tin. These IFF civilian pods are handed out to the entire world, anyone who needs one. The problem is because there is no active radar within the US when the terrorists disabled the IFF pods they were effectively stealthed, we couldnt see where they were.

Of course this has changed, the instant aircraft stop replying over the radio, or IFF goes down fighters are immediately scrambled... which brought on this question.

Quite simply because the order didnt come soon enough. Any commander that ordered military units against US civilians without specific orders to do so could and should recieve immediate reprimand and court martial.

Civilian leaders have since then created specific rules to fly and intercept any aircraft that IFF/radar are not replying. Would you honestly be comfterble with a military that would move on US citizens without civilian orders?

I won't ignore the thrust of your points.

I have heard, however, a smattering of reports that either hint or state that our intelligence departments did have at least some kind of warning and should or could have responded more diligently. I don't know the extent of the warning or what they chose to disregard as noise, but that is presumably what an independent investigation would uncover (or not).

BTW, the OP didn't post anything derogatory about Bush. He stated that he wanted to see responsible parties (as in, those who didn't respond appropriately or quickly enough to the circumstances) be held accountable. I don't know why some posters felt the need to get all retarded with hyperbole to imply the OP was being unreasonable.

Bookman · 01-29-2004, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kiwiman
I find it hard to believe that Bush is Saddam's homosexual lover.

Watch South Park.

You twisted my words..I meant Invest for the truth nothing more nothing less. NOT an invest predetermined to find GWB guilty.

Bookman · 01-29-2004, 05:55 AM

Intelligence failure or procedural failure who cares. Knowing that WTC was a target. Knowing your history of Operation Northwoods...Project Bojinka would make you think and blink twice at how the military which is and WAS prepared to jump bad and flex on the drop of the dime..slept through the continental USA's Darkest Day. So if it was all an accident or slip up as some of you say and swear...look how long the military took to react yet look how quickly we had our culprits and furthermore how quickly Iraq was in the picture.

As I stated above...there is no way there would be this lack of investigation into a tragedy in any other circumstances. The independent panels have and will be blocked. This is amazing.

onetime2 · 01-29-2004, 06:43 AM

I'm not clear on your points throughout this thread Bookman. You seem to hint at conspiracies and illusory investigations which cover every possible aspect of the terrorist act. I don't know of a single investigation which has been able to answer all the questions about the how's/why's/wherefor's of a crime. They may clear up some aspects but certainly not all.

One thing that disturbs me though, is that the current investigation can call inspectors/police who "almost" caught one of the hijackers and "almost" prevented 9/11 yet they can't seem to compel the ones who allowed the terrorists into the country to offer their reasons for failing to prevent their entrance.

tecoyah · 01-29-2004, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
Can you substantiate a single word of that? That is total bullshit and you know it.

Obviously touched a nerve....sorry.

I would hope an intellegent individual would understand the "opinion" represented here. And as we have yet to see an attempt to investigate the situation in any detail, I felt it a valid opinion as well.

political debate is almost as fervent as religious, and at times more so. Please dont take it so personally. This was simply an opinionatd reply to a question asked. As all politics revolves around personal opinion, I fail to see the need for anger.

And by the way....No I dont know it, any more than you do.
I may believe it, but I certainly dont know it to be the truth.

01-28-2004, 10:21 AM	#1 (permalink)
Bookman Insane	Will there ever be a totally neutral independent 9-11 investigation? How has the biggest accident/disaster/attack on American soil go so unexplained? Has this lack of truth been lost in the shuffle? The evidence was sold off (the smoldering steel). Inquiries have been blocked. Do any of you think this is odd or a I again a needle in the hay?

01-28-2004, 10:44 AM	#2 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	How much more explanation do you need. Airplanes were flown into the buildings - extreme heat from burning fuel caused catastrophic failure in the steel structure of the building and it collapsed. Money can be spent in re-investigating this until Hell freezes over and there will be no other explanation - Try reciting Humpty Dumpty over and over again and see if you reach any conclusion other than that expressed - They fell down and all the king's horses and all of the king's men aren't going to ever make the towers stand again. They are gone. You can look at the scrap steel through any type of device available and will find it is no different than any other steel ever made - get it too hot and it loses it's strength. __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!! Last edited by Liquor Dealer; 01-28-2004 at 12:00 PM..

01-28-2004, 11:56 AM	#4 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	I'm sorry Bookman, I don't understand what explanation you are looking for... I really mean that. Are you talking about intelligence failures, i.e. how did we not see it coming? Or do you mean investigation into Bush's actions afterwards? Or are you someone that believes there was some sort of conspiracy with our government involved? Until you say more clearly what you mean it is hard to discuss this in any more detail than LD just did. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

01-28-2004, 12:21 PM	#7 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	Bookman, I understand your angst but NORAD would have had absolutely no reason to be concerned with what scheduled flights of airliners were doing on that, or on any other morning in our history. These planes were doing nothing out of the ordinary until they suddenly altered course. Our, and no one else's defense systems are capable of predicting the future or in reading men's minds. I was in no way belittling the events of 9-11. It was a terrible castrophe in the history of our nation - it did not only effect those who were directly touched, it altered the lives of all Americans everywhere. We have been touched by the action of terrorists - all of us, and that simply isn't acceptable. Will an investigation alter the facts of the events of 9-11? I don't think so. Will the events of 9-11 alter our conduct in the future? I certainly hope so. __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

01-28-2004, 12:32 PM	#8 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	I think I understand the type of investigation you are expecting, and sadly you wont see it during this administration....might make someone look bad, or worse. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

01-28-2004, 12:34 PM	#9 (permalink)
Bookman Insane	Give me a tad to confirm whether or not NORAD is responsible for any aircraft that do no respond (in our case being hi-jacked). If they dont you have got me and I am not afraid to be wrong. The story of Payne Stewart comes to mind here (RIP). Be back soon.

01-28-2004, 12:52 PM	#11 (permalink)
Bookman Insane	I wont post links to articles which are not on CREDENTIALED websites; these are always criticized in debate and it is not worth my time to try to convince anyone of their validity...if you cant see it yourself the. So, Maybe I should have used the FAA as my example, it still does not take away from my point. Whoever stuck their thumb up their butt that morning...WHO IS THAT PERSON. Try Google searching "Payne Stewart....with FAA or NORAD" etc etc. Standard procedure...no plane may go without contact, THAT IS KNOWN. The second 9-11 plane should have been shot down. But somewhere..someone was sleeping or ordered to stand down. Make what you want to out of it but this makes sense...and there should have been a probe.

01-28-2004, 01:06 PM	#12 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	Bookman, Stewart's plane was being tracked because it was in trouble - It was out of control - and had been for quite some time - They were tracking it to make sure it didn't come down in the middle of a city or something. Today, an aircraft that gets drastically off course or doesn't respond to a radio transmission will soon find itself with the company an F-15 or something - that is because of 9-11. Prior to that it would not have stirred up a lot of excitemment. __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

01-28-2004, 01:18 PM	#14 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	Accident No.: DCA00MA005 Operator or Flight Number: Sunjet Aviation Aircraft and Registration: Learjet Model 35, N47BA Location: Aberdeen, South Dakota Date: October 25, 1999 SUMMARY On October 25, 1999, about 1213 central daylight time (CDT), a Learjet Model 35, N47BA, operated by Sunjet Aviation, Inc., of Sanford, Florida, crashed near Aberdeen, South Dakota. The airplane departed Orlando, Florida, for Dallas, Texas, about 0920 eastern daylight time (EDT). Radio contact with the flight was lost north of Gainesville, Florida, after air traffic control (ATC) cleared the airplane to flight level (FL) 390. The airplane was intercepted by several U.S. Air Force (USAF) and Air National Guard (ANG) aircraft as it proceeded northwestbound. The military pilots in a position to observe the accident airplane at close range stated (in interviews or via radio transmissions) that the forward windshields of the Learjet seemed to be frosted or covered with condensation. The military pilots could not see into the cabin. They did not observe any structural anomaly or other unusual condition. The military pilots observed the airplane depart controlled flight and spiral to the ground, impacting an open field. All occupants on board the airplane (the captain, first officer, and four passengers) were killed, and the airplane was destroyed. HISTORY OF FLIGHT On October 25, 1999, the flight crew was scheduled to begin a 2-day trip sequence consisting of five flights. The flights on the first day were to be from Orlando Sanford International Airport (SFB), Sanford, Florida, to Orlando International Airport (MCO), Orlando, Florida; from MCO to Dallas-Love Field Airport (DAL), Dallas, Texas; and from DAL to William P. Hobby Airport, Houston, Texas. The first flight of the day, a visual flight rules positioning flight operating under 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91, was scheduled to depart SFB about 0800 EDT bound for MCO, which is approximately 15 nautical miles (nm) away. According to the Sunjet Aviation customer service representative on duty at SFB on the day of the accident, the captain reported for duty at SFB about 0630 EDT, and the first officer arrived about 0645 EDT. She stated that both pilots were in a good mood and appeared to be in good health. A Sunjet Aviation line service technician stated that the captain asked him to pull the airplane out of the hangar, fuel it to 5,300 pounds fuel weight, connect a ground power unit to the airplane, and put a snack basket and cooler1 on the airplane. The first officer arrived at the airplane just before the fueling process started and stayed in the cockpit while the airplane was being fueled. The first officer then went inside the terminal building while the captain performed the preflight inspection of the airplane. About 0725 EDT, an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed with the St. Petersburg Automated Flight Service Station for the second flight of the day, MCO to DAL, which would operate under 14 CFR Part 135. The flight plan indicated that N47BA was scheduled to depart MCO about 0900 EDT; follow a route over Cross City, Florida, to 32 degrees, 51 minutes north and 96 degrees, 51 minutes west; and proceed directly to DAL. The requested altitude was 39,000 feet.2 The flight plan also indicated that there would be five persons on board (two pilots and three passengers) and 4 hours and 45 minutes of fuel. According to a witness, the accident airplane departed SFB about 0754 EDT. The flight arrived at MCO about 0810 EDT. An Aircraft Service International Group employee at MCO stated that after the airplane arrived, the captain told him that they were picking up passengers and did not require additional fuel. According to this witness, the passengers arrived about 30 minutes later and boarded the airplane. The Sunjet Aviation director of operations indicated that an additional passenger who was not on the original charter flight request boarded the accident airplane at MCO. Several bags were placed on board the airplane, including what the Aircraft Service International Group employee described as a big golf bag weighing about 30 pounds. According to ATC radio transmissions, the flight departed MCO about 0919 EDT bound for DAL. At 0921:46 EDT, the flight contacted the Jacksonville Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) and reported climbing through an altitude of 9,500 feet to 14,000 feet.3 At 0921:51 EDT, the controller instructed N47BA to climb and maintain FL 260. N47BA acknowledged the clearance by stating, "two six zero bravo alpha." At 0923:16 EDT, the controller cleared N47BA direct to Cross City and then direct to DAL. N47BA acknowledged the clearance. At 0926:48 EDT, N47BA was issued instructions to change radio frequency and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. N47BA acknowledged the frequency change. At 0927:10 EDT, N47BA called the Jacksonville ARTCC controller and stated that the flight was climbing through an altitude of FL 230. At 0927:13 EDT, the controller instructed N47BA to climb and maintain FL 390. At 0927:18 EDT, N47BA acknowledged the clearance by stating, "three nine zero bravo alpha." This was the last known radio transmission from the airplane.4 The sound of the cabin altitude aural warning5 was not heard on the ATC recording of this transmission.6 At 0933:38 EDT (6 minutes and 20 seconds after N47BA acknowledged the previous clearance), the controller instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. The controller received no response from N47BA. The controller called the flight five more times over the next 4 1/2 minutes but received no response. About 0952 CDT,7 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA.8 About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet,9 the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response. About 1000 CDT, the test pilot began a visual inspection of N47BA. There was no visible damage to the airplane, and he did not see ice accumulation on the exterior of the airplane. Both engines were running, and the rotating beacon was on. He stated that he could not see inside the passenger section of the airplane because the windows seemed to be dark. Further, he stated that the entire right cockpit windshield was opaque, as if condensation or ice covered the inside. He also indicated that the left cockpit windshield was opaque, although several sections of the center of the windshield seemed to be only thinly covered by condensation or ice; a small rectangular section of the windshield was clear, with only a small section of the glare shield visible through this area. He did not see any flight control movement. About 1012 CDT, he concluded his inspection of N47BA and proceeded to Scott AFB, Illinois. About 1113 CDT, two Oklahoma ANG F-16s with the identification "TULSA 13 flight" were vectored to intercept the accident airplane by the Minneapolis ARTCC. The TULSA 13 lead pilot reported to the Minneapolis ARTCC controller that he could not see any movement in the cockpit. About 1125 CDT, the TULSA 13 lead pilot reported that the windshield was dark and that he could not tell if the windshield was iced. About 1133 CDT, a TULSA 13 airplane maneuvered in front of the accident airplane, and the pilot reported, "we're not seeing anything inside, could be just a dark cockpit though...he is not reacting, moving or anything like that he should be able to have seen us by now." About 1138 CDT, the TULSA 13 lead pilot stated, "my wingman is going to make a final pass and then we are going .............. This goes on and on - As soon as the plane got into trouble they were all over it - they followed it until it rand out of fuel and crashed. They would have shot it down if it had become a thgreat to a populated area. __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

01-28-2004, 01:50 PM	#16 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	They were not in trouble to an extent that it attracted the attention of the controllers until it was too late - the Stewart thing didn't happen in an instant - it went on and on... __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

01-28-2004, 02:17 PM	#17 (permalink)
archer2371 Sarge of Blood Gulch Red Outpost Number One Location: On the front lines against our very enemy	Apparently Bookman, you don't understand the concepts behind RADAR. RADAR doesn't work off of beaming a signal off of an object and locating it that way. RADAR works by transponder signals, these transponder signals were turned off and no one had a way of knowing where the hell these planes were going. I hope that answers your questions about the FAA or NORAD, or whatever you have about scrambling fighters to intercept these planes, simply, they couldn't locate them because the transponders on the planes were turned off, the case was not so in the accident that killed Payne Stewart. As far as intelligence failures are concerned, you can thank the cuts in funding and HUMINT and other programs of the intelligence community for that. It's plain and simple, you restrict the number of sources you have to gain critical information and you won't gain that information until after the fact. I don't need an independent investigation to tell me that. __________________ "This ain't no Ice Cream Social!" "Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it." "I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

01-28-2004, 04:01 PM	#21 (permalink)
illesturban Psycho Location: Lubbock, TX	^but my point is, why has 911 fallen off as far as our priorities go? It's now like nothing is even being done anymore to try to catch Osama or find the people behind this. At least the administration isn't doing a good job of letting the american people know this. In a way I feel bad for those who lost loved ones in 9/11. Not only is there no resolution over 2 years later, but it seems as the government isn't really making it a priority to find one.

01-28-2004, 04:07 PM	#22 (permalink)
Bookman Insane	After crash WTC #1...there were planes which were un-accounted for. Why didnt the military scramble jets? WTC..the Pentagon...then 93 which I remember was reported SHOT DOWN. I know many people who remember that report...FALSE OR NOT. An investigation to find GWB as SATAN?? The truth nothing more nothing less.

01-28-2004, 07:49 PM	#24 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	Long live the Warren Commission. Can you believe everything you read? If not; is it a matter of investigating the sources of who creates the history books we study growing up That goes into the whys and for what reasons; and who can a person trust- the truth becomes merely selective interpretation __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

01-29-2004, 05:55 AM	#29 (permalink)
Bookman Insane	Intelligence failure or procedural failure who cares. Knowing that WTC was a target. Knowing your history of Operation Northwoods...Project Bojinka would make you think and blink twice at how the military which is and WAS prepared to jump bad and flex on the drop of the dime..slept through the continental USA's Darkest Day. So if it was all an accident or slip up as some of you say and swear...look how long the military took to react yet look how quickly we had our culprits and furthermore how quickly Iraq was in the picture. As I stated above...there is no way there would be this lack of investigation into a tragedy in any other circumstances. The independent panels have and will be blocked. This is amazing.

01-29-2004, 06:43 AM	#30 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	I'm not clear on your points throughout this thread Bookman. You seem to hint at conspiracies and illusory investigations which cover every possible aspect of the terrorist act. I don't know of a single investigation which has been able to answer all the questions about the how's/why's/wherefor's of a crime. They may clear up some aspects but certainly not all. One thing that disturbs me though, is that the current investigation can call inspectors/police who "almost" caught one of the hijackers and "almost" prevented 9/11 yet they can't seem to compel the ones who allowed the terrorists into the country to offer their reasons for failing to prevent their entrance. __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.