How do you decide anything in politics? (rant included)! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

mr sticky · 01-28-2004, 10:03 AM

I am currently a former staunch conservative who is increasingly becoming disenchanted with the whole political she-bang. Oh, fear not, I'm not changing my views, but the simple fact of the matter is, the playing field is changing into a mindless morass of blurbs and rhetoric and absolutely nothing of substance.

We here at the TFP, are by in large, seemingly a rather intelligent and informed group of people, yet we are debating issues to a large extent that are not fully elucidated. We catch the trickles that various media institutions put out, and these are usually edited to lean to a bias, depending on the source. For example, I doubt very seriously that George W Bush is an absolute moron, as equally as I doubt that Bill Clinton was a sexaholic. It is nigh impossible to get clear, concise data on anything!

We have debated the war in Iraq...I'm not really sure if it was the intelligence from the UK, or the unresolved UN pacts, or the need for revenge that got us there. But alas, we're there, and now we have our boys in harm's way. So, how to fix it...let's see...I haven't seen any concrete plan, a guess, or even a hail mary, in regards to the solution to the problem. Nobody on either side said "Hey, let's put up a McDonalds, a couple of strip joints, and MTV, and it'll be all right"....or" Let's kill everybody that looks like a terroist, and stuff will be cool."

Or closer to home...

The economy is always a big issue in an election year. I dare say that although we can spot and predict trends, and we can forecast a bit, we really haven't mastered this as a science. Some say that the economy is best stimulated with government spending, others say it's tax cuts that get it moving. They may both be right, but who really knows? If it was a masterable subject, then wouldn't more millionaires exist? We could put it into our little calculator and, presto, the answer cometh.

I'm not downing us, or our beliefs, but this election year is completely without substantive debate. I know what everybody hates (the candidates I mean) but I have no clue as to what they really stand for. They spend their entire career in ambiguity in an attempt to preserve a voting block. I want these guys to drop the pep rally bullshit, and tell us their plan. Then we could actually debate stuff like numbers, programs, modalities, and come to a rational decision in who we can support for a candidate!

I say again, this is about THEM, not US...We know what the hell we're talking about, as we have a whole community to act as a BS detector. It's time they start owning up!

Thanks for the patience.

Liquor Dealer · 01-28-2004, 10:37 AM

At this point it seems that the only thing you can really look at is the background, past record, and expressed intent of the candidates. I am happy with 85-90% of what the current president has done so it will take something really dramatic to change my opinion. I haven't seen this in any of the candidates so far. Kerry to me is by far the least acceptable of those running for the Democratic nomination. To me it makes absolutely no difference what he is saying today - I mainly consider his actions in the past and these are about as liberal as they can get. The economy is probably going to be a major issue and in this vein it boils down to which view is most acceptable - that of a conservative or that of a liberal.

Tomservo · 01-28-2004, 11:10 AM

We'll never know the truth in politics- we only know what they want us to know. I keep trying to figure our Bush's scheme for talking about immigration and Mars while the Dems are talking about Iraq and terrorism... but I'm sure there's some strategy I've never considered. But at least I know I haven't.

Personally, I look for qualities in a president that cause me to admire them, then I look at their stances and weigh them.

For instance, I was a Clinton supporter. I found him to be charming, very intelligent, and quick on his feet in a debate. He seemed to never be stumped, and on those rare occasions, he'd own up to being stumped. His background suggested he'd worked hard to reach that point in society, harder than most of us. (How many of us are Rhodes Scholars?) So, I liked him. After burrowing into his beliefs, I liked him a lot.

Now, I'm violently opposed to cheating in a relationship. So, it was disappointing to me that he does what he does- but after the whole world bashed his wife, I could scarely imagine why we wouldn't expect him to fool around.

Anyhow, in this election, I like John Edwards. He's a bright guy, well-mannered, doesn't seem calculating, although he likely is (A Clinton staple)... plus, he's from the hard-working, bootstraps background that I can identify with.

What does this have to do with anything? Simple... I'm not basing a whole lot of "facts", "voting patterns", so on... because I don't know them. I do know that Dean makes me feel a little creepy, Sharpton makes me laugh, and Edwards makes me wish I was him. Sometimes that's enough!

Jizzosh · 01-28-2004, 02:21 PM

I've found... Presented Information + Evoked Emotion x Personal dedication to discovery of accuracy / Personal Logic x Desire for eventual goal...

I'm sure there are some missing pieces to that equation, but basically, there are a lot of reliances on actual fact and solid information, but there is much more reliance on personal feeling.

powerclown · 01-29-2004, 11:45 AM

Quote:

the playing field is changing into a mindless morass of blurbs and rhetoric and absolutely nothing of substance.

Each of the candidates' official stances on the issues:

Kerry
Dean
Edwards
Clark
Kucinich
Lieberman
Sharpton

Bush is going to win regardless. If he can cheat his way into the presidency once, he can do it again. His family, which has been fluent among the innermost workings of US Government for 3 generations, holds immense influence among many of the most important governmental institutions in USA (Dad: former president, former head of cia, family friends & cronies in all major departments of government). The current administration has invested too much time/effort/money/soldiers/etc around the globe to go 4 years then out. He aint going nowhere.

01-28-2004, 10:03 AM	#1 (permalink)
mr sticky Psycho Location: NC	How do you decide anything in politics? (rant included)! I am currently a former staunch conservative who is increasingly becoming disenchanted with the whole political she-bang. Oh, fear not, I'm not changing my views, but the simple fact of the matter is, the playing field is changing into a mindless morass of blurbs and rhetoric and absolutely nothing of substance. We here at the TFP, are by in large, seemingly a rather intelligent and informed group of people, yet we are debating issues to a large extent that are not fully elucidated. We catch the trickles that various media institutions put out, and these are usually edited to lean to a bias, depending on the source. For example, I doubt very seriously that George W Bush is an absolute moron, as equally as I doubt that Bill Clinton was a sexaholic. It is nigh impossible to get clear, concise data on anything! We have debated the war in Iraq...I'm not really sure if it was the intelligence from the UK, or the unresolved UN pacts, or the need for revenge that got us there. But alas, we're there, and now we have our boys in harm's way. So, how to fix it...let's see...I haven't seen any concrete plan, a guess, or even a hail mary, in regards to the solution to the problem. Nobody on either side said "Hey, let's put up a McDonalds, a couple of strip joints, and MTV, and it'll be all right"....or" Let's kill everybody that looks like a terroist, and stuff will be cool." Or closer to home... The economy is always a big issue in an election year. I dare say that although we can spot and predict trends, and we can forecast a bit, we really haven't mastered this as a science. Some say that the economy is best stimulated with government spending, others say it's tax cuts that get it moving. They may both be right, but who really knows? If it was a masterable subject, then wouldn't more millionaires exist? We could put it into our little calculator and, presto, the answer cometh. I'm not downing us, or our beliefs, but this election year is completely without substantive debate. I know what everybody hates (the candidates I mean) but I have no clue as to what they really stand for. They spend their entire career in ambiguity in an attempt to preserve a voting block. I want these guys to drop the pep rally bullshit, and tell us their plan. Then we could actually debate stuff like numbers, programs, modalities, and come to a rational decision in who we can support for a candidate! I say again, this is about THEM, not US...We know what the hell we're talking about, as we have a whole community to act as a BS detector. It's time they start owning up! Thanks for the patience. __________________ The sad thing is... as you get older you come to realize that you don't so much pilot your life, as you just try to hold on, in a screaming, defiant ball of white-knuckle anxious fury

01-28-2004, 10:37 AM	#2 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	At this point it seems that the only thing you can really look at is the background, past record, and expressed intent of the candidates. I am happy with 85-90% of what the current president has done so it will take something really dramatic to change my opinion. I haven't seen this in any of the candidates so far. Kerry to me is by far the least acceptable of those running for the Democratic nomination. To me it makes absolutely no difference what he is saying today - I mainly consider his actions in the past and these are about as liberal as they can get. The economy is probably going to be a major issue and in this vein it boils down to which view is most acceptable - that of a conservative or that of a liberal. __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

01-28-2004, 02:21 PM	#4 (permalink)
Jizzosh Insane Location: Beijing, China	I've found... Presented Information + Evoked Emotion x Personal dedication to discovery of accuracy / Personal Logic x Desire for eventual goal... I'm sure there are some missing pieces to that equation, but basically, there are a lot of reliances on actual fact and solid information, but there is much more reliance on personal feeling. __________________ I'm never gonna know you now... but I'm gonna love you anyhow -Elliott Smith

01-28-2004, 11:10 AM	#3 (permalink)
Tomservo Crazy Location: Los Angeles, CA	We'll never know the truth in politics- we only know what they want us to know. I keep trying to figure our Bush's scheme for talking about immigration and Mars while the Dems are talking about Iraq and terrorism... but I'm sure there's some strategy I've never considered. But at least I know I haven't. Personally, I look for qualities in a president that cause me to admire them, then I look at their stances and weigh them. For instance, I was a Clinton supporter. I found him to be charming, very intelligent, and quick on his feet in a debate. He seemed to never be stumped, and on those rare occasions, he'd own up to being stumped. His background suggested he'd worked hard to reach that point in society, harder than most of us. (How many of us are Rhodes Scholars?) So, I liked him. After burrowing into his beliefs, I liked him a lot. Now, I'm violently opposed to cheating in a relationship. So, it was disappointing to me that he does what he does- but after the whole world bashed his wife, I could scarely imagine why we wouldn't expect him to fool around. Anyhow, in this election, I like John Edwards. He's a bright guy, well-mannered, doesn't seem calculating, although he likely is (A Clinton staple)... plus, he's from the hard-working, bootstraps background that I can identify with. What does this have to do with anything? Simple... I'm not basing a whole lot of "facts", "voting patterns", so on... because I don't know them. I do know that Dean makes me feel a little creepy, Sharpton makes me laugh, and Edwards makes me wish I was him. Sometimes that's enough!