01-17-2004, 03:14 PM | #1 (permalink) |
Bringer of good Moos...
Location: Midlands, UK
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9/11 put into perspective
In the media frenzy following this "war on terror" etc, this website puts a bit of perspective on the whole thing...
Kinda scary, eh? http://www.jimpix.co.uk/words/terror.asp |
01-17-2004, 03:24 PM | #2 (permalink) |
Loves my girl in thongs
Location: North of Mexico, South of Canada
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That's an interesting viewpoint from which to analyze.
I'll keep my politics to myself for now though.
__________________
Seen on an employer evaluation: "The wheel is turning but the hamsters dead" ____________________________ Is arch13 really a porn diety ? find out after the film at 11. -Nanofever |
01-17-2004, 03:26 PM | #3 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: The Red Mile
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Interesting. Never thought of it like that. Although maybe it's the political/economic/metal effect it has on people?
For example.. those few days after 9/11, air travel ceased as a precaution.. the US airline industry hasn't fully recovered from that yet, have they.. Anyway, that's just an example of why some ppl might find events like 9/11 more 'important'. |
01-17-2004, 03:43 PM | #4 (permalink) |
‚±‚̈ó˜U‚ª–Ú‚É“ü‚ç‚Ê‚©
Location: College
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The reason why people seem to fear terrorism more than much more common sources is that terrorism is much more unpredictable.
We can reasonably estimate, based on prior occurances, how many people will die this year from car accidents or cancer. But there is no good way to estimate how many will die of terrorism, because the terror many fear is the kind that could potentially kill millions in a way never before seen (bioweapons, etc.). Because people don't know if something like that will happen, or how likely it is to happen, they are more fearful. Another difference is that there is an intentionality behind terrorist killings that is not found behind the more common sources of death. Because there is a group of people that want terrorist deaths to happen, many find them much more infuriating and fear-inducing. |
01-17-2004, 03:52 PM | #5 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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moved to politics.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
01-17-2004, 04:36 PM | #6 (permalink) | |
Existentialist
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Sort of an off topic example - When Mark McGwire broke Roger Maris's homerun record of 30+ years, he got a ton of attention throughout the campaign. When Barry Bonds broke McGwire's record only a few years later, a lot fewer people cared. It's the "been there done that" factor.
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01-18-2004, 01:50 AM | #7 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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More Iraqi's were killed by Allied bombing than American's klilled in the WTC attack, so why dont people talk about the war on Iraq as a terrinle tragedy and a horrific attack?
The victims are invisible sometimes I guess, especially if they happen to have brown skin or speak a different language to you.
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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
01-18-2004, 01:29 PM | #8 (permalink) | |
Upright
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Hello,
as the person who wrote the piece under discussion I've been interested to hear what people think about the subject. Just on thing that jumped out at me: Quote:
Arms manufacturers, generally seen as perfectly legitimate businesses, make products which are designed to kill people. Surely there is a totally transparent 'intentionality' behind the killings which happen as a direct result of the sales of the products these companies produce. While the companies themselves are not doing the killing, they are making the deaths more likely. What is even more grotesque is that governments, such as mine here in the UK will approve of export contracts to countries with horrendous human rights records, because big business wins the day, and the call for profit is more persuasive than the call for peace. How else can you explain that in the same year that Saddam Hussein gassed civilians at Halabja, UK export credits to Baghdad rose from £175 million in 1987 to £340 million in 1988? Are you trying to argue that the corporations who profit from making cigarettes are not aware of the fact that tobacco is the only legally available consumer product which kills people when it is used entirely as intended? How can manufacturers of alcohol not know about the far reaching fallout that results from the massive consumption of alcohol that occurs in even the UK alone? Those are my thoughts... Jim |
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01-18-2004, 02:01 PM | #9 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Some people haved lived comfortably too long. I'd like for you anti-western whiners to go spend a few months living in Iran (or the former Iraq if that were possible) and THEN come here and tell us how evil the west is.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
01-18-2004, 02:58 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
‚±‚̈ó˜U‚ª–Ú‚É“ü‚ç‚Ê‚©
Location: College
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Quote:
I personally am not one of these people so I can't really answer the questions you've presented. |
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01-18-2004, 04:54 PM | #11 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Think people.
There is a reason it is called terrorism.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
01-18-2004, 06:02 PM | #12 (permalink) |
Dubya
Location: VA
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I like the way that numbers can speak so much more eloquently than words sometimes.
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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work." |
01-18-2004, 06:15 PM | #13 (permalink) |
Minion of the scaléd ones
Location: Northeast Jesusland
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That's one way to look at it. I agree with a lot of it. I also think that it takes a very complex system and reduces it to a simplicity that is a bit deceptive.
Lebell, liked the Addams family, did you?
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Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life. |
01-18-2004, 06:23 PM | #14 (permalink) |
Insane
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I've always believed that if, say, AIDS were to hit the West the same way it affects Africa we'd have a cure the next day. Out of sight, out of mind. 9/11 hit home and that is why we're supposed to care. It's provided a context to carry out actions that would have been much harder to justify before, so we care. It's because people should die over there, not here.
What is terrorism, anyways? It's a construct nowadays, used by anyone to justify anything against anyone else. It's a useless term. It implies evil and only evil, negating even the mere opportunity for discussion. Perhaps people don't think of the barracks bombing in Lebanon anymore because you can't put the same innocent spin on it. The "peacekeepers" picked a side, shot their guns (big, big guns at that) and paid the price. SLM3 |
01-18-2004, 07:08 PM | #15 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Quote:
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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01-18-2004, 07:35 PM | #16 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Quote:
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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01-19-2004, 04:19 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Insane
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You've proved my point. Targeting civilians for the sake of targeting civilians? If we think like that then what is there to discuss? What are the political causes/implications of the act? What are the root factors behind it? When you say killing for the sake of killing, you rule out any sort of discussion, and that's the kind of closed-mindedness that has led the way these past few years. No group is targeting civilians for the sake of targeting civlians. Your definition of terrorism is useless. We should really refer to it as political violence. SLM3 |
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01-19-2004, 04:33 PM | #18 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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Terrorists are cowards cause they target civilians thinking it will further there political message. The motivation never really changes, its always politics.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
01-19-2004, 04:58 PM | #19 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Quote:
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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01-19-2004, 06:29 PM | #20 (permalink) |
Insane
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Interesting how you start the process with the blowing up of a bus or a pizza stand. I'd rather start the process a couple steps before that, looking at what led to that bus or that pizza stand being blown up in the first place.
Stop trying to cure the symptoms. SLM3 |
01-19-2004, 08:07 PM | #21 (permalink) |
Upright
Location: seattle
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similarly, a post on everything2 concerning sep. 11:
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1189711 |
01-19-2004, 08:13 PM | #22 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: New Orleans/Chicago
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If the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is representative, those who perpetrate terrorism have not been amenable to reasonable compromise. Most "every day" Israelis and Palestinians would have signed off on more than one of the previous peace proposals. Until the extremists on both sides of the fence are dealt with, you cannot effectively deal with the underlying issues imo (mostly because the terrorsits don't really want the issues resolved, because it is these very issues which give them their power).
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why are you wearing that stupid man suit? |
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01-20-2004, 07:03 AM | #23 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: NJ
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There is absolutely an intentionality as lordjeebus put it behind the terrorist attacks that isn't present in the "normal" deaths occuring on a daily basis. To equate the manufacture of guns with the direct action of murdering civilians for a political cause is ridiculous.
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Strive to be more curious than ignorant. |
01-20-2004, 10:46 AM | #25 (permalink) | |
Modern Man
Location: West Michigan
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/end really simplified version.
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01-20-2004, 11:20 AM | #26 (permalink) | |
Insane
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Its a destructive cycle. Last edited by Bookman; 01-20-2004 at 11:22 AM.. |
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01-20-2004, 12:09 PM | #27 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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If you want to blame something blame, blame Exodus. Some people can not be reasoned with. I can understand their motivation, but if their goal is not compatible then its to bad.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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01-20-2004, 12:54 PM | #28 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Unfortunately that is true.
Many Palestinian radicals have vowed not to stop until Israel is destroyed. How do you negotiate a way out of that?
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
01-21-2004, 06:27 AM | #29 (permalink) | |
Insane
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One has armies and the other has rocks and strap on bombs. |
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01-21-2004, 08:58 AM | #30 (permalink) | |
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
Location: In the dust of the archives
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01-21-2004, 09:58 AM | #31 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Various Israeli administrations have offered to trade back land for peace treaties with their neighbors, offers that have been rejected by Syria, and the Palestinians. (Israel now enjoys peace with Jordan and Egypt.) Unfortunately for the Palestinians they have allowed radical elements to harden the Israeli public while rejecting each offer given.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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01-21-2004, 10:01 AM | #32 (permalink) | |
Insane
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01-21-2004, 10:19 AM | #33 (permalink) | |
Dubya
Location: VA
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Quote:
__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work." |
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01-21-2004, 10:19 AM | #34 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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Wars ranging from the war for independence 1949, Sinai War in 1956, Six day War in 1967 (preemption by Israel), Yom Kippur in 73', and The Lebanon campaign in 1982. These were actual wars. Israel really hasn't started taken action against Palestinians until the Infitida's began in 88' (think thats when). Also you can throw in various campaigns waged from Jordan/Syria/Lebanon under the banner of the PLO in between all of that and sometime thereafter.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
01-21-2004, 02:34 PM | #35 (permalink) |
Upright
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It is a standard response to say that Palestinians want to destroy Israel. Of course there are some hard liners who wish this was the case, but they do not speak for the ordinary Palestinians.
There are also many Israelis who do not agree with the current brutal treatment being meted out to the Palestinians, who feel that it will do nothing to forward the move to an eventual peaceful settlement with the Palestinians. This is evidenced by the growing number of 'refuseniks'. These are Israeli soldiers who have refused to serve as soldiers in the Occupied Territories for the Israeli Defence Force, as they feel it is completely immoral and will not help anyone. Five of these men have now been jailed for a year for taking a conscientious stance against their superiors. These two excellent articles are proof if proof were needed that something needs to be resolved to stop what is happening in Israel. http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...22&ItemID=4840 http://www.zmag.org/content/Mideast/...astructure.cfm This article is a letter from Eitan Ronel, a former Lieutenant Colonel who has returned his rank to the Israeli Army Chief of Staff in a public letter, saying "A state whose army breaks up civilian demonstrations with live fire is not a democratic state. An army that educates its soldiers that it is possible to contemplate such a crime has lost [sight of its] limits… http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...22&ItemID=4817 Recently 22 year old International Solidarity Movement activist Tom Hurndall died after being shot by an IDF soldier in April 2003. He had been in a coma since then, and died on January 13th. A press release from Tom's family (http://www.tomhurndall.co.uk/) notes that the soldier was sniping using a telescopic sight and hit Tom in the forehead, suggesting that a charge of attempted murder would be more appropriate than a charge of aggravated assault. I think that it is wrong to kill civilians wherever they are - by being pro Palestinian does not mean I agree with the concept of suicide bombing. I feel that Sharon's response to the Palestinians mirrors Bush's war on Terror. When something awful happens, like 9/11 or a suicide bombing, there is no effort made on behalf of Bush or Sharon to try to understand what may be causing people to do take such drastic actions. Instead they react to violence with harsher, more overwhelming violence, which only worsens the very conditions which caused those who carried out their suicide bombings in the first place. I really can't imagine life for those in the Occupied Territories. If I had seen my brothers, friends, relatives being routinely killed and humiliated, if my every journey was a trial, if the civil and administrative infrastructure which surrounded me had been systematically gunned, bulldozed, shot at, destroyed I would feel cut adrift, hopeless, angry, and if I had no work, and could not move around freely, and I saw no hope in life, I cannot really imagine how I would feel. What about you? It is interesting that often when the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is raised that people often complain that the Palestinians have rejected offers from Isreal to trade back land. The last time this occurred, via Barak's 'generous' offer, people felt the Palestinians were wanting to have their cake and eat it, and that they were foolhardy to reject it. This article on the veteran Israeli peace activist Uri Avenery's site Gush Shalom gives some information that may help us understand why the Palestinians were not so keen to sign on the dotted line: http://www.gush-shalom.org/generous/generous.html How strange, that during periods when only Palestinians are killed, that the world looks on and calls such times 'periods of calm'? Again, read this article http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...22&ItemID=4840 and ask yourself if the Palestinians would be afforded such nonchalance from the global community while they tried to do the same to Israeli towns. How can it be that such horrific, unbridled violence can be meted out against the Palestinians with barely a mention on the mainstream news? |
01-22-2004, 05:12 AM | #36 (permalink) | |
Insane
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9 or 11, perspective, put |
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