Liquor Dealer

Analysts Question Dean's New Discussion of God

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,106752,00.html
Friday, December 26, 2003

WASHINGTON — Presidential candidate Howard Dean has run for the Democratic nomination as one of the most aggressively secular candidates in recent presidential campaign history.

He has said almost nothing about his personal faith or how the role of religion or faith affects his perspectives of national issues. But that's about to change.

Dean, a member of the congregationist church whose wife and children are Jewish, now says he will talk more about Jesus Christ when he campaigns, but only in the south.

"Christ was someone who sought out people who were disenfranchised, people who were left behind," Dean told the Boston Globe in Christmas Day editions. "He fought against self-righteousness of people who had everything ... He was a person who set an extraordinary example that has lasted 2,000 years, which is pretty inspiring when you think about it."

Whereas some candidates, like Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman, an Orthodox Jew, regularly discuss faith on the campaign trail, Dean has stayed away from it. Instead, he has said that Democrats cannot win the 2004 election if they fight in some parts of America on the Republicans' issue set. Specifically, he said that Democrats running for the presidency couldn't win in the south if they talked openly about three key issues.

"I'm tired of coming to the south and fighting elections on guns, God and gays. We're going to fight this election on our turf, which is going to be jobs, education and health care," he told a South Carolina rally in early December.

Democratic rivals not only disagree with Dean's attitude about how to win in the south, they also are critical of what they call Dean's contradictions about the role of religion in his life and in the campaign.

"Howard Dean can never get it straight," said Steve Murphy, campaign manager for Missouri Rep. Dick Gephardt. "I mean, first, he said that, you know, that southerners shouldn't vote on guns, God and gays, and now he says he's going to use religion more. First, he said, you know, that he was going to be the candidate of people with confederate flag decals, and then he apologized for that. You never know what Howard Dean is going to say. If you don't like it, just wait a little while, he'll change it."

Religious faith has become one of the strongest indicators available of partisan political attitudes. According to a poll released last month from the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press, 63 percent of voters who regularly attend religious services support Republicans, while 62 percent of voters who very rarely or never attend religious services support Democrats.

"The United States is, by far, of all the western democracies, the most religious country, in the sense of the number of people who answer polls with a belief in God and the number of people who attend church services," said former chairman of the Republican National Committee Mark Braden.

"If you look at the single biggest indicator of whether you voted for a Democratic presidential candidate in the last two elections or a Republican presidential candidate, it's regular church attendance. So there is a divide between the parties," he added.

Dean used to belong to the Episcopal Church, but left the faith in the early 1980s in a dispute over a bike path. Dean wanted the bike path built in Burlington, Vt., but the church he attended did not. Dean decided the conflict was too large to overcome.

Even recently, Dean's brushes with religion have been fraught with peril. Earlier this week, Dean earned the ire of Rev. Arthur Hilson of New Hope Baptist Church in Portsmouth, N.H. New Hope has been frequented by many political candidates, but Hilson took aim at Dean for visiting the church recently, but not coming to listen to the concerns of the congregation. Instead, he said, Dean dropped by the church to have a photo taken with the reverend and his wife for a feature in Newsweek Magazine. The article was about Dean seeking the southern African-American vote.

Dean's new religious dialogue may be targeted toward South Carolina, home of the first southern primary on Feb. 3. Among Democrats in South Carolina, African-Americans are expected to play a critical role in the primary. They are also among the most religious of Democrats, and according to the Pew Center, black Baptist and Protestant churchgoers represent the largest segment of the population that frequently attends services, but votes nearly 100 percent with Democrats.

"One important constituency for Democratic candidates are African American churches," said Democratic strategist and Fox News analyst Mary Ann Marsh. "African-American churches in South Carolina, African-American votes are crucial in that primary, and that's the difference between winning and losing."

Whatever Dean's strategy, analysts say his discussion of religion and faith must pass an authenticity test -- one they say Dean's discourse on religion has yet to do.

"It's not unusual for politicians to look at religious belief as a way to reach out to the electorate. But frankly, it only works if you're sincere, so the question of whether it will work for him or not is whether he is sincere," Braden said.

"If this is just a southern strategy ... it's a risky one. If it looks like it's contrived and calculating, it could backfire," Marsh said. "He has to be convincing. It has to look real and genuine and that remains to be seen."

Fox News' Major Garrett and Sharon Kehnemui contributed to this report.

I think Dean is flip-flopping more than a fish on the pier. And he's the darling of the bash Bush crowd!!!

And it gets better!


Dean Not Ready to Pronounce Bin Laden Guilty

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,106758,00.html
Friday, December 26, 2003

CONCORD, N.H. — Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean says it's premature to recommend what penalty Usama bin Laden should face before he's been legally determined to be guilty of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.



Asked whether bin Laden should be tried in the United States and put to death, Dean told The Concord Monitor, "I still have this old-fashioned notion that even with people like Usama, who is very likely to be found guilty, we should do our best not to, in positions of executive power, not to prejudge jury trials."

In an interview with the New Hampshire newspaper for Friday editions, Dean added: "I'm sure that is the correct sentiment of most Americans, but I do think if you're running for president, or if you are president, it's best to say that the full range of penalties should be available. But it's not so great to prejudge the judicial system."

Calling Iraq "probably the best place" for Saddam Hussein to be tried, Dean said he is willing "to be flexible about that because I don't think it's essential to the security interests of the United States."

Dean said he plans to keep reminding Democrats that he, unlike his major rivals for the nomination, opposed the Iraq war, in spite of polls showing the vast majority of the American public supporting the invasion at the time.

Asked how he would persuade people who were not opposed to the war to vote for him instead of President Bush (search), Dean responded, "By going after him on terrorism, where he's really weak."

Dean questioned whether the Bush administration's use of force against Iraq had anything to do with Libya's announcement that it will scrap its programs for weapons of mass destruction

__________________
Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

Sparhawk

Let's pick through these editorials and find what Dean actually said, shall we?

Sounds inspirational to me-where does the secular/non-religious bias factor in here?

jobs, education and health care - 3 things the South historically struggles with and Dean wants to change for the better - again, I don't see the bias, just political strategizing.

Should "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" not apply to this man? What happened to the Republicans cherishing the Rule of Law?

I'll repeat that: "the full range of penalties should be available."

Nothing objectionable here...

His opinion, which he will be campaigning on vigorously.

To sum up: just two more flawed editorials from Liquor Dealer.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

chavos

too bad he didn't connect better with that church...

but i don't know what evil we're supposed to infer from the rest of the articles.

Ustwo

Being something between a liberaterian and a republican I have to say my choice for the dems in 2004 goes as follows.

1 - Kucinich
2 - Brown
3 - Dean

I REALLY hope Dean wins the nomination.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Liquor Dealer

Sparhawk said: [color=lime green]
"To sum up: just two more flawed editorials from Liquor Dealer"[/color]


The sum total of every word I said: [color=lime green]
"I think Dean is flip-flopping more than a fish on the pier. And he's the darling of the bash Bush crowd!!!

And it gets better!" [/color]

Which of the two ( "editorials") did you think most flawed?

This one?

"I think Dean is flip-flopping more than a fish on the pier. And he's the darling of the bash Bush crowd!!!

Or perhaps was it this one?

"And it gets better!"

I think perhaps the statement most flawed is "And it gets better!"

You, on the otherhand are entitled to your opinion! Perhaps "I think Dean is flip-flopping more than a fish on the pier. And he's the darling of the bash Bush crowd!!! is more flawed but, on the otherhand "And it gets better!" is gettin' right on out there where flaws are more likely to happen!

Good evening, Gentlemen.

__________________
Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

Locobot

Um, Mr Liquor Dealer sir, I think sparhawk was talking about these two editorials:
http://www.fox ... news.com/story/0,2933,106752,00.html
http://www.fox ... news.com/story/0,2933,106758,00.html

respectfully yours,
Locobot

Strange Famous

Reading those articles, I'd vote for him before Bush or Gore.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Endymon32

That is no suprise.

Strange Famous

Is Ralph Nadar going to stand again? He seemed to be a very strong candidate before. I think the fact that it was so close that many people who would have voted him got (rightly) scared of a Bush win and voted for Gore as the lesser of two evils hurt him.

I am not sure if America is ready for him yet, but I would expect him to win 10 - 15% of the vote in normal circumstances, even with the intense media campaign against him.

As for this guy Dean, he sounds a bit unwilling to commit himself to anything, but at least he is talking about the right issues and seems to have a sane view on them.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Endymon32

Nadar wont run as he realises that all he did was split the Democratic vote.

Strange Famous

But that wasnt a bad thing, long term.

Yes, it did allow Bush to be in a position he could sneak in, but at the same time it was a warning to the Democrats, that they are supposed to represent the left of the country and they cannot ignore the views of so many people and just be sure they'll vote for them because the Republicans are even worse.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Sparhawk

Exactly...

But that was a nice attempt at trolling, Liquor Dealer...

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Kadath

So you admit that you provided nearly no opinion of your own, just posted two articles. I know we are frowning on that these days. You can't win here, LD! We will get you no matter what you do!

I probably should have mentioned that this was entirely tongue in cheek.

__________________
it's quiet in here

Ustwo

Run LD run!!! The lefties are onto you, don't wash your hair or bathe for a month and you can blend right in, they will never find you!

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Nizzle

I haven't been here in a while (because of this kind of crap), but I saw the new stickied post about how this forum would be held to new standards and moderated more heavily to ensure people respected each other.

I guess that doesn't apply to conservative assholes like you, Utswo.

What a pointless place this is when the rules don't apply to everyone. I am officially done with this forum, gentlemen.

__________________
Nizzle

seretogis

...or you?

Three cheers for "do as I say, not as I do", hmm?

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Strange Famous

He was being sarcastic, wasn't he? Like misspelling illitrate?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

seretogis

At best, he was being unintentionally ironic.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

james t kirk

Can someone please tell me where i can send a cash donation to Dean.

I imagine there are millions of Canadians who would contribute to his campaign to get rid of shrub.

smooth

This should get you started:

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/P...modwc1.app195a

eburitto

Please god, I'm begging you... don't let Bush get elected.

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-eburitto

Locobot

amen, brother

Ustwo

If you can't take a mild joke you most likely shouldn't be posting anywhere. You know Limbaugh always refers to liberals as humorless, PLEASE try to prove him wrong.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

shakran

Hey I've got an idea. Try getting NEWS, not CONSERVATIVE EDITORIALS.


If the news comes from Fox, it's not news, it's conservative op-ed thinly disguised as news.

Ustwo

You mean someplace like the NY Times?

Or perhaps CNN?

maybe the Washinton Post?

Those places never have any bias right?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Superbelt

Editorials, always suck. Too much color, too little quoting.

And where there is quoting it's cut up into little snippets to say whatever someone wants it to say.

Sparhawk

I didn't think foreigners could contribute to an American political campaign. Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

smooth

james t kirk is an American . Someone correct me if I'm wrong .

Anyway, here is an interesting and timely piece:

http://writ.corporate.findlaw.com/dorf/20031224.html

(too long to paste).

It appears as though MoveOn was taking donations from foreign sources but is no longer. There seems to be an old ban (~30 years) against foreign donations but the site speculates that it won't hold up to constitutional muster once it's tested in court. The author bases his conclusions on a recent ruling in the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform law (McConnell v. Federal Election Comm'n) that struck down a portion of it that banned minors from contributing based on their first amendment rights.

He also explains that first amendment rights have historically been applied to foreigners. The author concludes that democratic ideals should allow for foreigners to be allowed to voice their opinions in our elections, even if the ban is constitutional.

Sparhawk

james t kirk is from iowa.

william shatner, however, is from canada

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Liquor Dealer

Wasn't a troll at all - nothing but the exact words I posted - You chose to take exception with the source and attribute it to me. I care not that you don't care for a conservative source - I purposely posted two articles - verbatim. I did this to see what three of you would do with it - perhaps that is trolling, come to think of it. There is just no way to deal with people who are overwhelmed with their own importance so at this point - Rave on, I don't think there is anyone but the three or four of you who reside "out there somewhere in the extremes" who really give a crap about your opinions. Next time, do as you always tell others - read the damned article before you start your rant.

__________________
Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

Sparhawk

I read everything in a thread I reply to, I wish others would do the same. Care to respond to some of my points regarding Dean's actual words, as I am interested in discussing Dean's viewpoints on "guns, God, and gays" or "jobs, education, and healthcare".

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

nirol

Give em hell LD,
I know that you are enjoying this, but please remember that the Republican Party never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Remember this solecism from PJ O'Rourke:
Democrats are also the party of government activism, the party that says government can make you richer, smarter, taller and get the chickweed out of your lawn. Republicans are the party that says government doesn´t work, and then they get elected and prove it.
- On the Bandwagon / Parliament of Whores (1991)

Bush has coopted most traditional Democratic campaign issues in domestic policy, as Blair did in Britain to the Tories. This has left them struggling. This election will determine whether they continue as a viable party, or become a large representation of the Greens.

__________________
'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784)

omega2K4

Religion + Politics = Disaster

__________________
"While the State exists there can be no freedom. When there is freedom there will be no State." - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

"Reason has always existed, but not always in a reasonable form."- Karl Marx

Tophat665

<big>WHOA</big>
Guys! Slow the bejeezus down!

OK, I know some of us don't care who gets elected so long as it's not Bush, and some don't care as long as it is. That's fine.

LD, pulling two editorials from Faux is fine & dandy, particularly if you manage to get across your own opinions with them, but 1) They are from Faux, so they are immediately as suspect as if I pulled articles from Mother Jones or Pacifica or the Democratic Underground, and 2) When they don't add up to what you say they do and you get called on it, please, don't get bent out of shape, defend your position!

To me, from those articles, it looks like Dean is going for a regionallty distributed message. It emphasizes what he and his staff believe will resonate in different parts of the country, while remaining internally consistent.

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.