A war between the Socialists and those who value Liberty - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Endymon32 · 12-27-2003, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by debaser
Nor will there ever be. Marx was a fantastic economist, but he was also a utopian, and his vision is laced with the same fundamental flaw as every utopian, from More to Swift to Bacon. He fails to deal with the human condition of greed.

Marx also lived of the wealth of his wife, and produced nothing to feed or provide for his family. In short, he sat and wrote a book, and accourding to his own work, did nothing to provide for his commrades. And he did it on his wife's capitalist wealth. So if not for capitalism, Marx would not have been able to write.

Strange Famous · 12-27-2003, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by debaser
This was not the state of man prior to the advent of capitalism...

That is because the stage of history before capitalism was also exploitative, a system of feudalism.

Endymon32 · 12-27-2003, 04:57 PM

and before feudalism?

Strange Famous · 12-27-2003, 04:58 PM

In fact, Marx lived off Engels far more than his wife. Engels was of course a capitalist, although not an especially succesful one. Marx did once try to get a job as a railway clerk, but was turned down because his handwriting was too bad.

debaser · 12-27-2003, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
That is because the stage of history before capitalism was also exploitative, a system of feudalism.

And what about before that? Lets go back to primitive cave dwelling societies, arguably the only "communists" that have ever existed. They still had a hierarchy, they still fought other tribes, and they still punished the lazy ones.

Strange Famous · 12-27-2003, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Endymon32
and before feudalism?

Shall I just give you the whole picture?

Primitive communism

Slave Economy

Feudalism

Industrial Capitalism

Social Capitalism (today)

Lower Communism

Higher Communism

These are the stages that every society will necessarily pass through, the revolution which leads to the next stage is caused mostly by changes in the forces of production.

Endymon32 · 12-27-2003, 06:21 PM

And again there was never a communists society, and accourding to you, never will be. So what is the point? Accourding to you, it cant be proven since there is no bases for study, no control. And accourding to all historians ( I have a degree in ancient history) every socialists and communist nation failed. So keep talking, the world is passing you by.
By the way, you might want to get a job cause capitalism aint going anywhere anytime soon.

Endymon32 · 12-27-2003, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
In fact, Marx lived off Engels far more than his wife. Engels was of course a capitalist, although not an especially succesful one. Marx did once try to get a job as a railway clerk, but was turned down because his handwriting was too bad.

So between his wife and engles, the founder of communism coudlnt provide for his children and needed not one, but TWO capitalists to provide for him. Food for thought.

Strange Famous · 12-28-2003, 03:32 AM

We live in a capitalist world and one can only survive by being a capitalist most of the time.

We know though, that the revolution is coming, that capitalism is failing and falling around us.

It is true that history has not proven the success of communist society yet, but every motor and study of history shows us that communism is the most probable, logical, and desirable next stage.

The only real objection anyone has to communism is saying "oh, it wont work, people are too selfish to work together", nobody actually wouldnt prefer to live in a truly democratic communist society... so we have to ask ourselves, why do we not know ask more of our human nature, rather than expect less.

Are we so poor a race, so weak and helpless, that we are unable to find our way toa society that everyone knows to be a better place, because we cannot get beyond petty greed and selfishness?

debaser · 12-28-2003, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous

Are we so poor a race, so weak and helpless, that we are unable to find our way toa society that everyone knows to be a better place, because we cannot get beyond petty greed and selfishness?

Yes.

And I for one do not think it would be a better place, there is nothing inspiring one to excell in such a society.

Also, in rereading your post above it seems to me that you do not properly understand the free rider problem.

Strange Famous · 12-28-2003, 06:32 AM

1, Endymon, I would call Norway a social capitalist country, the same as America or Britain, although Norway is clearly a more advanced country than the other two.

2, Debaser, your argument sounds a little tautological to me. You say I cannot prove what a communist society would do because one has never existed, so therefore I cannot prove communism can work. If the only proof is an actually existing communist state, then this is self evident.

My belief is, through my experience in life, that people wish to share, that people are as compassionate as they are aggressive and greedy - that capitalism and the constant state of nationalist tension we live in feeds people's negative qualities; but that in a different society the positive qualities of human beings could be nutured.

I basically am saying that I do not believe man is basically a greedy, self interested, bad and aggressive animal - but that men and women have the potential to be peaceful, constructive and decent, if they can arrange a society which is non-exploitative to allow this. This is the goal, this is my dream, this is what I believe the future holds. Maybe I shall be proved to too hopeful, I think we all would at least agree that we should wish that I am not?

Strange Famous · 12-28-2003, 06:38 AM

Why would a rational person want to "excel" in the sense of achieving or getting more than he needs? this is greed. the only excellence that is needed in a communist society is the drive to give as much as you can for society, to achieve as much as possible - the motivation for this is compassion, solidarity, and human creativity.

The free rider problem, as I understand it, is that what happens to people who do not wish to give all that they can? Also, what of those people who will enjoy the results of the revolution, but not work towards it - believing, if the revolution wins they will benefit, and if it fails and the master class lashes out against the common people they will not suffer the retaliation of the master class.

This is a view of human nature founded in Western capitalism, to believe that some people are basically lazy and would wish to not contribute to society if there was not the reward of a bigger mortgage or a bigger wide screen TV to push them on... these are not the people I believe in, I believe they are products of capitalism and the way it forces working men to compete against each other to enslave themselves further to capital in order for a small increase in material reward...

In a society based upon fairness, equality, democracy - people do not need to be motivated to work harder so they can get a new TV or so they can feed their children properly or give them a fit education... these things are given, their motivation becomes their own pride in themselves and their community.

debaser · 12-28-2003, 07:48 AM

No offence, but you vision of human nature is very naive. You place all of the blame for the ills inherant to mankind on capitalism. You forget that humans are animals, and as such we are still driven by animal impulses, one of the strongest of which is survival. Your survival depends on the destruction of others, be they your species or another.

How do you intend to stop people from overpopulating your new utopia?

How do you plan stop a faction that decides it is in their interest to have more than their share?

How do you determine what each individuals needs are?

How do you plan to enlighten the population of this planet to the point where they will go along with your plan?

Who is going to shovel shit in your society?

How do you foster pride when you remove all individualism from society?

Have you read 1984?

Strange Famous · 12-28-2003, 08:00 AM

I have read 1984, I would have thought "Brave New World" would be a more appropriate book to ask me if I'd read!

Strange Famous · 12-28-2003, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by debaser

How do you intend to stop people from overpopulating your new utopia?

How do you plan stop a faction that decides it is in their interest to have more than their share?

How do you determine what each individuals needs are?

How do you plan to enlighten the population of this planet to the point where they will go along with your plan?

Who is going to shovel shit in your society?

How do you foster pride when you remove all individualism from society?

Have you read 1984?

1, Population will be far more controlled by making birth control widely available to those who wish to use it, and in the other direction by offering the best medical care to all people.

The superior organisation and ever advancing technology of communism will allow the earth to support a greater population.

I find it appalling for the argument that capitalsim operates a system of supply and demand even against the lives of human beings to be considered as an argument in its favour.

2, The interests of all are decided by all, there will be no factionalism in a truly communist society, because there will be no argument concerning the big issues - which have all been solved. The only debates will be concerning matters of organisation. It is capitalism and the state that causes great divides in society, by gender, class, race - class will not exist in the future, nor will racism or sexism.

What we are saying is that people have evolved to a level when they CAN be trusted. There may well always be a level of deviance, caused by mental illness, but the vat majority of crime and deviance we see today is created by class divides, capitalism exploitation, racism, and ignorance, and brute poverty. These causes will all be eliminated.

People in the future will not WANT to claim more than they need. There will still need to be a management of the society, the practical issues still need to be managed, but this is done by a body answerable to and inseparable from the will of the people as a people, the general will if you like - which rises above petty personal interest.

3, By democracy, by common sense. We know and understand today the things that people need - health care, security, a home, reasonable leisure time and activities, the ability to be creative - these are the things we give to our people. of course, even in communism, there will be a hugely diverse number of resources available to people, and choice as to which of them they wish to consume.

4, The enlightenment of the people is happening all the time. Already the general population is rejecting capitalism and the state, the youth rejects the old guard and the outdated system of capitalism, people intrinsically hold dear to them certain values - fairness, peace, decency, compassion - communism is the realisation of what every person already knows to be right.

5, Do a degree we hope to allocate jobs according to ability. At the same time, we know that the technology we have now will be vastly increased when freed from the fetters of capitalist, exploitative economy... yes, there still will be work to done after the revolution that will be unpleasant... I think it will be handled in a variety of ways. There will be far less unpleasant work, there will be a genuine meritocracy so that people have jobs that suit there skills, jobs which are unpleasant will be shared, and expanded so that there are also pleasant parts. There will be no toilet cleaners after the revolution, even if toilets still must be cleaned.

6, Pride comes from the success and glory of the collectivism, of society, and also internally, from the part you individually play in the great society.

debaser · 12-28-2003, 08:30 AM

Wow, just wow.

You sound as if you actually believe this stuff, and more power to you.

The problem of course is that you are still waving a magic wand and saying that:

Quote:

there will be no argument concerning the big issues - which have all been solved.

Your goals are noble, but you know what they say about the road to hell. There is no part of what you have written above that even vaugely synchs with the reality of todays world.

I fear your dream will forever remain just that.

Endymon32 · 12-28-2003, 08:46 AM

And I love how he dismisses all the communist nations that butchered their own populace and started wars as "not communist"

So I will use his argument and say this to Strange Famous.

There was never a capitalist nations on earth, so you cant blame capitalism for anything. Why? Cause every capitalist nation has elements fo socialism. So by Strange Famous's logic, Capitalism is glorious, since there has never been a pure capitalist country.

Strange Famous · 12-28-2003, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Endymon32
And I love how he dismisses all the communist nations that butchered their own populace and started wars as "not communist"

So I will use his argument and say this to Strange Famous.

There was never a capitalist nations on earth, so you cant blame capitalism for anything. Why? Cause every capitalist nation has elements fo socialism. So by Strange Famous's logic, Capitalism is glorious, since there has never been a pure capitalist country.

Capitalism is an economic system and I think that it is very hard to deny that it is the economic system currently prevalent in this world.

The end of WWI was the death of industrial capitalism. people like Marx, Engels, Lenin, all expected communism to be born, but instead "social capitalism" was born - a capitalism economy but also with a welfare state and some state intervention and partnership with industry.

By making these concessions, the capitalist mode of production has gone on almost 100 years passed what should have been its sell by date. My belief is the same intrinsic flaws still exist and will still mean capitalism cannot help but destroy itself.

As a system of economy, capitalism has created huge technical and industrial advantages, has created very real freedoms, without real and total freedom - but there is so much it cannot do. It cannot protect the environment adequately from the irresponsible plundering of natural resources, it cannot protect us from pollution, constant threat of wars, and gross inequalitym internationally and locally.

We have created awesome productive power, yet we cannot stop this productive power polluting the world, the profit mechanism has become too powerful for mankind to control, we must bring it under control to go forward now. This is the aim of socialism, to place the economy under the control of human will, and not blind market forces that lust only for profit and the accumulation of more capital, no matter what the human or social cost.

Endymon32 · 12-28-2003, 09:27 AM

Nope its not, as per your logic, there is no capitalist system since there are labour unions, and other socialist elements. So since you say there was no communism as per your flawed logic, I will use your logic and tell you there is no capitalism.
You cant have both,

debaser · 12-28-2003, 09:37 AM

One of the basic tenants of communism is that it must work. Therefore if it didn't work, it must not have been communism...

Strange Famous · 12-28-2003, 09:54 AM

Why do so many people insist it is not possible to have a better world than we do?

Why do we not believe in people enough to think that a "utopia" can be realistic, rather than just a word that means "fantasy"?

Capitalism is failing, it is failing the environment, it is failing huge numbers of people - I mean, we have a system of economy that regular allows millions, literally millions, of people to starve to death.

We live in a world where Bill Gates can have a fortune of millions, and people in Korea are starving, people in Ethopia are starving, people all over the world dont even have basic health care or security, people in Indonesia, China, many places, work under terrible sweat shop conditions. Is this the best we can do? If we do not strive for something better, not just a few tweaks and regulations, but to turn everything upside down and create a world where we do not allow these things to happen, what hope is there for us?

debaser · 12-28-2003, 10:04 AM

Check out http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm before you bitch about Bill Gates. I loathe what the man has done to computing, but his philanthropy is beyond reproach...

Oddly enough the US, that vile cesspool of capitalism and greed, feeds more people than the rest of the worlds governments combined.

Strange Famous · 12-28-2003, 10:39 AM

Bill Gates may be a great giver to charity.

The fact remains that a system of economy that can concentrate so much wealth in so few hands, while there is genuine starvation in this world, is just plain wrong.

debaser · 12-28-2003, 10:51 AM

How so?

Strange Famous · 12-28-2003, 11:09 AM

It is not, in my opinion, the correct way to allocate resources if some people do not have enough to survive and some people have a huge surplus.

I believe it is morally right to have a system that guarantees ALL people at least a basic standard of acceptable life - (which I would define as food & clean water, shelter, a degree of security, access to education, basic health care and some leisure time)

debaser · 12-28-2003, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous

I believe it is morally right to have a system that guarantees ALL people at least a basic standard of acceptable life - (which I would define as food & clean water, shelter, a degree of security, access to education, basic health care and some leisure time)

Oh, you mean like in America?

Strange Famous · 12-28-2003, 11:16 AM

I am not sure America guarantee's health care for all, or shelter for all - as far as I am aware there is a big homelessness problem in many American cities.

But certainly, a genuine safety net, such as most advanced industrial countries have, is the very minimum that can be acceptable in my opinion.

A welfare state that covers the globe, not one nation's territory.

debaser · 12-28-2003, 11:19 AM

America provides the services you list above for all people within our borders. Granted there is a problem with homelessness, but that is as much a problem of the individual as it is the society. Americans pay for these services. How do you propose to expand that net around the world when many nations do not have the ability to pay for them?

Ustwo · 12-28-2003, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
A welfare state that covers the globe, not one nation's territory.

You are so far left I wonder if you are just a troll who is having some fun stirring up the pot.

Freedom is more then just being able to do the drugs you want and fuck who you want. Freedom is also economic freedom, the freedom to reap what you produce with your own labor. Why the left can't understand this is beyond my comprehension. If there ever comes a time when the government tries to take such freedom from me, I will be more then willing to take arms against said government.

Live free or die.

Strange Famous · 12-28-2003, 11:58 AM

It is quite disturbing when people think that someone who is a communist must be a troll... surely you know these ideals are not dead, they are held by many people. I really do see two America's...

The political compass thing was another example, someone believed my score was a joke or I had tried to score the furthest left I could, the fact is there were very questions I even had to consider how I felt on, my responses were automatic.

I posted the same link on another site (not a political site, the site of a pop singer I used to like) and everyone that took the test was scoring around -5, -5... This is one America.

Your America, with your wish to take arms against people if they try to make you contribute all of your wages to a social fund and then take from that fund what you need, is the other. To me, to anyone, that would be a wonderful way to organise society. You genuinely seem to be willing to fight and die to oppose a system that seems so clearly more fair to me.

Freedom from persecution is important. I support the freedom for people to take narcotics (as long as they are fully educated about all of the effects), and people should be able to have any sexual relations they want as long as they are conducted by adults with informed consent.

But these are not the most vital freedoms. The freedoms that really matter are these:

Freedom from fear, freedom from poverty, freedom for persecution on the grounds of race, ability, gender, religion, age... freedom from the violence of invisible hands.

The freedom to make more money than you really need, the freedom to accumulate enough so that you can begin to exploit the labour of others rather than have your own labour exploited, the freedom to arm yourself with lethal weaponary, these are false freedoms... these are freedoms that make people unfree.

Communism is about freedom from the market, and about a society that uses its economic power for democratically decided ends... what is the freedom to compete worth? Why do you wish to have the freedom to do better than other people? This is a false freedom... the freedom that is needed is the freedom from genuine want, from persecution, from exploitation.

In a communist society, the general population will NOT be armed, and will not be permitted to bare arms. There is little argument I find convincing for bearing arms today, there will be none in the future. In a communist society, there will not be the freedom to exploit, there will not be the freedom to take more than your share just because you work harder or are more talented - these freedoms we know are not needed.

The freedom you will have is the freedom from the market, from economic power, from war and from far and from crime and from pollutuion.

You do not take what you produce now, the capitalist alienates the common person from a portion of the value of their labour. What communism means is this exploitation ceasing, and the value of all labour to be placed into a social fund and then be distributed democratically, not just to the most powerful or the strongest or the most capable.

debaser · 12-28-2003, 12:06 PM

Quote:

In a communist society, the general population will NOT be armed, and will not be permitted to bare arms. There is little argument I find convincing for bearing arms today, there will be none in the future. In a communist society, there will not be the freedom to exploit, there will not be the freedom to take more than your share just because you work harder or are more talented - these freedoms we know are not needed.

In a society were everyone is willingly working toward the greater good, and putting the good of the body politic above their own, what do have to fear from the common person having a gun?

You realize you have just trashed your entire premise, right? By stratifying the society into haves and have nots, you have created a group who is subservient, and a group who can excercise force on that group without fear of reprisal (rather like in all of the "communist" nations to date).

Strange Famous · 12-28-2003, 12:16 PM

Guns will not be needed in a communist society, they will be forbidden because the only people who want them will be people who commit crime due to mental illness... the economic motivation of crime (which causes 99% of crime today) will have disappeared.

debaser · 12-28-2003, 12:39 PM

*poof*, just like that...

Strange Famous · 12-28-2003, 12:43 PM

mostly. Most crimes have a economic motive, or are caused by the economic degradation the criminal grows up in. Remove these factors and you will only have a very small number of people who commit crimes because of mental inbalances - mostly sex criminals I would expect.

debaser · 12-28-2003, 12:58 PM

What about crimes of passion? Are all of the drones in your perfect society capable of shutting off their emotions as well?

And how do we acheive such a wonderful goal while there are currently criminals in the world?

Strange Famous · 12-28-2003, 01:09 PM

There may be some crimes of passion, far less than there is today of course, because a lot of the pressues put on relationships are a result of the conditions in a capitalist country. of course, human nature is still what it is, even though a communist society can nuture its better parts... there will always be crimes caused by romantic jealousy... a communist society will need to process and treat these criminals, humanely, but justly.

Those who currently are committing crime must be rehabilitated (sic?) into society, and helped to become productive members of society, rather than deviants.

Endymon32 · 12-28-2003, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by debaser
One of the basic tenants of communism is that it must work. Therefore if it didn't work, it must not have been communism...

LOL good one.

Endymon32 · 12-28-2003, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
It is not, in my opinion, the correct way to allocate resources if some people do not have enough to survive and some people have a huge surplus.

I believe it is morally right to have a system that guarantees ALL people at least a basic standard of acceptable life - (which I would define as food & clean water, shelter, a degree of security, access to education, basic health care and some leisure time)

then why are you against the IRaq war? You clearly dont practicewhat you preach. There is MORE democracy, more schools, better pay, more food, more peace, and better economy there now than in the past 30 years. In short, Iraq is now better to utopia then ever, and yet you are wetting your pants screaming that Saddam should never have been removed. Why so inconsistant?

Endymon32 · 12-28-2003, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
There may be some crimes of passion, far less than there is today of course, because a lot of the pressues put on relationships are a result of the conditions in a capitalist country. of course, human nature is still what it is, even though a communist society can nuture its better parts... there will always be crimes caused by romantic jealousy... a communist society will need to process and treat these criminals, humanely, but justly.

Those who currently are committing crime must be rehabilitated (sic?) into society, and helped to become productive members of society, rather than deviants.

How? Does BLessed MArx know how to stop crime? PLease enlighten me.

Ustwo · 12-28-2003, 08:08 PM

What communists never grasp is that the communist leaders are people too. Sure you can deprive the citizens of rights and make them slaves to the government, but the leaders of said government are just as human an will abuse their power to their own gain. Communism is a wonderfull thing, if you are an ant, all working for the good of the queen and the hive. We are not ants, and you can not make us ants.

12-27-2003, 04:58 PM	#44 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	In fact, Marx lived off Engels far more than his wife. Engels was of course a capitalist, although not an especially succesful one. Marx did once try to get a job as a railway clerk, but was turned down because his handwriting was too bad. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2003, 03:32 AM	#49 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	We live in a capitalist world and one can only survive by being a capitalist most of the time. We know though, that the revolution is coming, that capitalism is failing and falling around us. It is true that history has not proven the success of communist society yet, but every motor and study of history shows us that communism is the most probable, logical, and desirable next stage. The only real objection anyone has to communism is saying "oh, it wont work, people are too selfish to work together", nobody actually wouldnt prefer to live in a truly democratic communist society... so we have to ask ourselves, why do we not know ask more of our human nature, rather than expect less. Are we so poor a race, so weak and helpless, that we are unable to find our way toa society that everyone knows to be a better place, because we cannot get beyond petty greed and selfishness? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2003, 06:32 AM	#51 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	1, Endymon, I would call Norway a social capitalist country, the same as America or Britain, although Norway is clearly a more advanced country than the other two. 2, Debaser, your argument sounds a little tautological to me. You say I cannot prove what a communist society would do because one has never existed, so therefore I cannot prove communism can work. If the only proof is an actually existing communist state, then this is self evident. My belief is, through my experience in life, that people wish to share, that people are as compassionate as they are aggressive and greedy - that capitalism and the constant state of nationalist tension we live in feeds people's negative qualities; but that in a different society the positive qualities of human beings could be nutured. I basically am saying that I do not believe man is basically a greedy, self interested, bad and aggressive animal - but that men and women have the potential to be peaceful, constructive and decent, if they can arrange a society which is non-exploitative to allow this. This is the goal, this is my dream, this is what I believe the future holds. Maybe I shall be proved to too hopeful, I think we all would at least agree that we should wish that I am not? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2003, 06:38 AM	#52 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Why would a rational person want to "excel" in the sense of achieving or getting more than he needs? this is greed. the only excellence that is needed in a communist society is the drive to give as much as you can for society, to achieve as much as possible - the motivation for this is compassion, solidarity, and human creativity. The free rider problem, as I understand it, is that what happens to people who do not wish to give all that they can? Also, what of those people who will enjoy the results of the revolution, but not work towards it - believing, if the revolution wins they will benefit, and if it fails and the master class lashes out against the common people they will not suffer the retaliation of the master class. This is a view of human nature founded in Western capitalism, to believe that some people are basically lazy and would wish to not contribute to society if there was not the reward of a bigger mortgage or a bigger wide screen TV to push them on... these are not the people I believe in, I believe they are products of capitalism and the way it forces working men to compete against each other to enslave themselves further to capital in order for a small increase in material reward... In a society based upon fairness, equality, democracy - people do not need to be motivated to work harder so they can get a new TV or so they can feed their children properly or give them a fit education... these things are given, their motivation becomes their own pride in themselves and their community. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2003, 07:48 AM	#53 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	No offence, but you vision of human nature is very naive. You place all of the blame for the ills inherant to mankind on capitalism. You forget that humans are animals, and as such we are still driven by animal impulses, one of the strongest of which is survival. Your survival depends on the destruction of others, be they your species or another. How do you intend to stop people from overpopulating your new utopia? How do you plan stop a faction that decides it is in their interest to have more than their share? How do you determine what each individuals needs are? How do you plan to enlighten the population of this planet to the point where they will go along with your plan? Who is going to shovel shit in your society? How do you foster pride when you remove all individualism from society? Have you read 1984? __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

12-27-2003, 04:57 PM	#43 (permalink)
Endymon32 Banned	and before feudalism?

12-27-2003, 06:21 PM	#47 (permalink)
Endymon32 Banned	And again there was never a communists society, and accourding to you, never will be. So what is the point? Accourding to you, it cant be proven since there is no bases for study, no control. And accourding to all historians ( I have a degree in ancient history) every socialists and communist nation failed. So keep talking, the world is passing you by. By the way, you might want to get a job cause capitalism aint going anywhere anytime soon.

12-28-2003, 08:00 AM	#54 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I have read 1984, I would have thought "Brave New World" would be a more appropriate book to ask me if I'd read! __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2003, 08:46 AM	#57 (permalink)
Endymon32 Banned	And I love how he dismisses all the communist nations that butchered their own populace and started wars as "not communist" So I will use his argument and say this to Strange Famous. There was never a capitalist nations on earth, so you cant blame capitalism for anything. Why? Cause every capitalist nation has elements fo socialism. So by Strange Famous's logic, Capitalism is glorious, since there has never been a pure capitalist country.

12-28-2003, 09:27 AM	#59 (permalink)
Endymon32 Banned	Nope its not, as per your logic, there is no capitalist system since there are labour unions, and other socialist elements. So since you say there was no communism as per your flawed logic, I will use your logic and tell you there is no capitalism. You cant have both,

12-28-2003, 09:37 AM	#60 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	One of the basic tenants of communism is that it must work. Therefore if it didn't work, it must not have been communism... __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

12-28-2003, 09:54 AM	#61 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Why do so many people insist it is not possible to have a better world than we do? Why do we not believe in people enough to think that a "utopia" can be realistic, rather than just a word that means "fantasy"? Capitalism is failing, it is failing the environment, it is failing huge numbers of people - I mean, we have a system of economy that regular allows millions, literally millions, of people to starve to death. We live in a world where Bill Gates can have a fortune of millions, and people in Korea are starving, people in Ethopia are starving, people all over the world dont even have basic health care or security, people in Indonesia, China, many places, work under terrible sweat shop conditions. Is this the best we can do? If we do not strive for something better, not just a few tweaks and regulations, but to turn everything upside down and create a world where we do not allow these things to happen, what hope is there for us? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2003, 10:04 AM	#62 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	Check out http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm before you bitch about Bill Gates. I loathe what the man has done to computing, but his philanthropy is beyond reproach... Oddly enough the US, that vile cesspool of capitalism and greed, feeds more people than the rest of the worlds governments combined. __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

12-28-2003, 10:39 AM	#63 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Bill Gates may be a great giver to charity. The fact remains that a system of economy that can concentrate so much wealth in so few hands, while there is genuine starvation in this world, is just plain wrong. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2003, 10:51 AM	#64 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	How so? __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

12-28-2003, 11:09 AM	#65 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	It is not, in my opinion, the correct way to allocate resources if some people do not have enough to survive and some people have a huge surplus. I believe it is morally right to have a system that guarantees ALL people at least a basic standard of acceptable life - (which I would define as food & clean water, shelter, a degree of security, access to education, basic health care and some leisure time) __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2003, 11:16 AM	#67 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I am not sure America guarantee's health care for all, or shelter for all - as far as I am aware there is a big homelessness problem in many American cities. But certainly, a genuine safety net, such as most advanced industrial countries have, is the very minimum that can be acceptable in my opinion. A welfare state that covers the globe, not one nation's territory. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2003, 11:19 AM	#68 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	America provides the services you list above for all people within our borders. Granted there is a problem with homelessness, but that is as much a problem of the individual as it is the society. Americans pay for these services. How do you propose to expand that net around the world when many nations do not have the ability to pay for them? __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

12-28-2003, 11:58 AM	#70 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	It is quite disturbing when people think that someone who is a communist must be a troll... surely you know these ideals are not dead, they are held by many people. I really do see two America's... The political compass thing was another example, someone believed my score was a joke or I had tried to score the furthest left I could, the fact is there were very questions I even had to consider how I felt on, my responses were automatic. I posted the same link on another site (not a political site, the site of a pop singer I used to like) and everyone that took the test was scoring around -5, -5... This is one America. Your America, with your wish to take arms against people if they try to make you contribute all of your wages to a social fund and then take from that fund what you need, is the other. To me, to anyone, that would be a wonderful way to organise society. You genuinely seem to be willing to fight and die to oppose a system that seems so clearly more fair to me. Freedom from persecution is important. I support the freedom for people to take narcotics (as long as they are fully educated about all of the effects), and people should be able to have any sexual relations they want as long as they are conducted by adults with informed consent. But these are not the most vital freedoms. The freedoms that really matter are these: Freedom from fear, freedom from poverty, freedom for persecution on the grounds of race, ability, gender, religion, age... freedom from the violence of invisible hands. The freedom to make more money than you really need, the freedom to accumulate enough so that you can begin to exploit the labour of others rather than have your own labour exploited, the freedom to arm yourself with lethal weaponary, these are false freedoms... these are freedoms that make people unfree. Communism is about freedom from the market, and about a society that uses its economic power for democratically decided ends... what is the freedom to compete worth? Why do you wish to have the freedom to do better than other people? This is a false freedom... the freedom that is needed is the freedom from genuine want, from persecution, from exploitation. In a communist society, the general population will NOT be armed, and will not be permitted to bare arms. There is little argument I find convincing for bearing arms today, there will be none in the future. In a communist society, there will not be the freedom to exploit, there will not be the freedom to take more than your share just because you work harder or are more talented - these freedoms we know are not needed. The freedom you will have is the freedom from the market, from economic power, from war and from far and from crime and from pollutuion. You do not take what you produce now, the capitalist alienates the common person from a portion of the value of their labour. What communism means is this exploitation ceasing, and the value of all labour to be placed into a social fund and then be distributed democratically, not just to the most powerful or the strongest or the most capable. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2003, 12:16 PM	#72 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Guns will not be needed in a communist society, they will be forbidden because the only people who want them will be people who commit crime due to mental illness... the economic motivation of crime (which causes 99% of crime today) will have disappeared. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2003, 12:39 PM	#73 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	poof, just like that... __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

12-28-2003, 12:43 PM	#74 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	mostly. Most crimes have a economic motive, or are caused by the economic degradation the criminal grows up in. Remove these factors and you will only have a very small number of people who commit crimes because of mental inbalances - mostly sex criminals I would expect. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2003, 12:58 PM	#75 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	What about crimes of passion? Are all of the drones in your perfect society capable of shutting off their emotions as well? And how do we acheive such a wonderful goal while there are currently criminals in the world? __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

12-28-2003, 01:09 PM	#76 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	There may be some crimes of passion, far less than there is today of course, because a lot of the pressues put on relationships are a result of the conditions in a capitalist country. of course, human nature is still what it is, even though a communist society can nuture its better parts... there will always be crimes caused by romantic jealousy... a communist society will need to process and treat these criminals, humanely, but justly. Those who currently are committing crime must be rehabilitated (sic?) into society, and helped to become productive members of society, rather than deviants. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-28-2003, 08:08 PM	#80 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	What communists never grasp is that the communist leaders are people too. Sure you can deprive the citizens of rights and make them slaves to the government, but the leaders of said government are just as human an will abuse their power to their own gain. Communism is a wonderfull thing, if you are an ant, all working for the good of the queen and the hive. We are not ants, and you can not make us ants. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.