Bush opposes Taiwanese independence - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

meepa · 12-09-2003, 05:06 PM

I scanned the topics, but I didn't see this. If it's somewhere and I'm crazy blind... Go ahead and delete this mofo!

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...1025&printer=1

Quote:

WASHINGTON - President Bush (news - web sites) said Tuesday after meeting with Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao that he opposes the apparent interest of Taiwan's leaders in taking steps toward independence.

AP Photo

China, U.S. Warm Up to Trade Negotiations
(AP Video)

Speaking to reporters in the Oval Office after a 40-minute meeting with Wen, Bush said he had told the premier, "The United States policy is one China."

"We oppose any unilateral decision by either China or Taiwan to change the status quo," Bush said, "and the comments and actions made by the leader of Taiwan indicate that he may be willing to make decisions unilaterally, to change the status quo, which we oppose."

It was the administration's strongest statement to date in opposition to Taiwan's plan to conduct a referendum on March 20 on whether the Taiwanese people want to demand that China withdraw hundreds of missiles aimed at Taiwan and renounce the use of force against the island.

The administration sees this as an indirect step toward independence, a view shared by Chinese authorities who have threatened military action against the island if the referendum proceeds as planned. But Wen, refraining from belligerent comments, said China's goal is to pursue peaceful reunification with Taiwan, "as long as a glimmer of hope" exists.

"Stability can only be maintained through unswerving opposition to pro-independence activities," Wen said. He said his country sought to maintain a system of "one country, two systems."

"We will do our utmost to bring about national reunification through peaceful means," Wen said.

"The Chinese government respects the desire of people in Taiwan for democracy, but we must point out that the (Taiwanese leaders) are only using democracy as an excuse and attempt to resort to defensive referendums to split Taiwan away from China," he said. "Such separatist activities are what the Chinese side can absolutely not accept."

On the issue of stability on the Korean peninsula, the United States hopes to be able to negotiate an end to North Korea (news - web sites)'s nuclear weapons program, with assistance from China.

At present, China is attempting to reconvene six-party talks aimed at resolving the impasse.

Bush expressed appreciation to China for starting the process this past summer.

"The goal is to dismantle a nuclear weapons program in a verifiable and irreversible way, and that is a clear message that we are sending to the North Koreans," Bush said. "We will continue to work with China and the other countries involved to solve this issue peacefully."

The other countries, aside from China and the United States, are the two Koreas, Japan and Russia.

In response to a question on trade disputes, Wen said China has been taking steps to reduce the massive U.S. trade deficit, adding that he planned to submit a proposal on this issue during his luncheon meeting with Bush and other officials. He gave no hint on what was in the proposal.

U.S.-China trade has come a long way since 25 years ago, Wen said. The combined total was a mere $2.5 billion a year, compared with the current figure of more than $100 billion, he said.

"We have to admit, though, in our economic and trade relationship, problems still exist, and mainly the U.S. trade deficit with China," Wen said — prompting a "thank you" from Bush.

"The Chinese government takes this problem seriously, and has taken measures to improve the situation," Wen said.

Earlier, during an arrival ceremony on the South Lawn, Bush gently chided China on human rights and on Beijing's economic policies.

"The growth of economic freedom in China provides reason to hope that social, political and religious freedoms will grow there as well," Bush told Wen and an audience of dignitaries. "In the long run, these freedoms are indivisible and essential to national greatness and national dignity."

China joined the World Trade Organization (news - web sites) two years ago. The administration has been pushing Beijing to speed up market opening measures and relax controls on its currency that it contends make Chinese exports unfairly cheap on world markets.

"We recognize that if prosperity's power is to reach into every corner of China, the Chinese government must fully integrate into the rules and norms of the international trading and finance system," Bush said.

Bush also said the growing strength and maturity of the relationship "allows us to discuss our differences, whether over economic issues, Taiwan, Tibet or human rights and religious freedom, in a spirit of mutual understanding and respect." Wen said: "At the present crucial juncture, we face opportunities and challenges. The fundamental interests of the two peoples require China and the United States to step up cooperation. ... China-U.S. relations must go on improving."

The administration's tough stance on Taiwan could reflect the importance that it attaches to continued Chinese cooperation on the North Korea issue. The United States and its partners in the talks are attempting to work out a statement that all sides, North Korea included, could agree to. If that goal is achieved, a new six-party meeting in Beijing will be convened.

On Monday, an administration official previewed for reporters U.S. opposition to Taiwan's plan to hold the March referendum. A new law gives him the power to hold a "defensive referendum" when the island's sovereignty faces imminent threat.

The referendum, timed to coincide with presidential elections, would ask voters whether they want to demand that China withdraw hundreds of missiles aimed at Taiwan and renounce the use of force against the island.

In Taipei, Taiwanese Foreign Minister Eugene Chien said: "The United States doesn't want our referendum to affect the stability in the Taiwan Strait. We fully understand this."

Que el hecko? So much for his supporting freedom for people card

hiredgun · 12-09-2003, 06:36 PM

Look! Bush hates freedom!

Easytiger · 12-09-2003, 06:39 PM

The Taiwan/China impasse is quite the mess. Both feel that they are the "real" China and neither are opposed to a little bit of sabre-rattling.
I guess Bush isn't going to do much about Tibet either. It's a damn shame when human rights abusers have an industrious population of over one billion (and a great big fuck-off army as well). China's too valuable a trade partner to make an enemy out of, I guess.

meepa · 12-09-2003, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Easytiger
China's too valuable a trade partner to make an enemy out of, I guess.

Typical shit

I wonder what the republicans who ragged on Clinton when he favored China will say now?

OFKU0 · 12-09-2003, 07:33 PM

Speaking to reporters in the Oval Office after a 40-minute meeting with Wen, Bush said he had told the premier, "The United States policy is one China."

"We oppose any unilateral decision by either China or Taiwan to change the status quo," Bush said, "and the comments and actions made by the leader of Taiwan indicate that he may be willing to make decisions unilaterally, to change the status quo, which we oppose."

Forgive my ignorance,but when was George Bush made King of the World.

Kadath · 12-09-2003, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OFKU0
Forgive my ignorance,but when was George Bush made King of the World.

As much as I dislike Bush, stating the US government's position on the China/Taiwan situation isn't outside the realm of normal behavior for a President.

hiredgun · 12-09-2003, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OFKU0
Speaking to reporters in the Oval Office after a 40-minute meeting with Wen, Bush said he had told the premier, "The United States policy is one China."

"We oppose any unilateral decision by either China or Taiwan to change the status quo," Bush said, "and the comments and actions made by the leader of Taiwan indicate that he may be willing to make decisions unilaterally, to change the status quo, which we oppose."

Forgive my ignorance,but when was George Bush made King of the World.

Um, three years ago when he was made President?

Kidding. But there's no "king of the world" thing about it; he's simply stating what US policy is going to be, and what the US will or will not support. He's not acting as if he's king of the world.

EDIT: Kadath beat me to it, and said it better than I did anyway.

wilbjammin · 12-09-2003, 08:57 PM

Taiwan is a funny circumstance. I don't know what to think, it basically has served as the nationalist refuge from the revolution. They really are two very different places because of the differences between government philosophies, yet China isn't exactly the same Maoist state that it used to be, and the nationalists aren't exactly the same as they used to be. It just shows how grudges can be held for a long time. I don't think I'd be particularly excited to cooperate with a nation that is pointing a bunch of missiles at me. A united China/Taiwan would have more of a look of cooperation rather than domination, I'd think. It kinda reminds me of our relationship with Cuba in a way. Sometimes holding grudges really creates a good political mechanism for the ruling party... opposition to something external can create order, I guess.

OFKU0 · 12-09-2003, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hiredgun
Um, three years ago when he was made President?

Kidding. But there's no "king of the world" thing about it; he's simply stating what US policy is going to be, and what the US will or will not support. He's not acting as if he's king of the world.

I am not an American so I don't know what policies are what, but can someone explain the difference between foreign policies which are agreed on or not between the U.S and other countries and how or why the U.S can decide who becomes a sovereign independent country or not? As redundant as it may sound,isn't that what the U.N is for?

wilbjammin · 12-09-2003, 09:41 PM

Quote:

As redundant as it may sound,isn't that what the U.N is for?

Actually, the UN really doesn't have much to do with that. The UN is more of a intermediary, they don't have the backing to do much more than peacekeeping, inspections, and negotiations. The UN may decide to recognize countries or not, but it doesn't mean all that much.

And as for US involvement in the sovereign business in other countries... I can't even list how much we've messed with other countries. Just look at what the CIA has done in Latin America in places like Chile.

Macheath · 12-10-2003, 05:40 AM

I remember that back in April 2001, Bush was seemingly much more pro-Taiwan when he publicly stated that he would send US troops to Taiwan if China attacked. China responded to these comments by stating that the US was heading "further down a dangerous road" with these comments. US allies urged restraint. It was seen as being pretty big at the time.

It really seems a lot like the Bush we're used to; quite punchy, quite aggressive. I do wonder if this manner of his actually consistently harms his ability to engage in effective diplomacy.

He always goes in guns blazing and then (because we're talking about diplomacy here, not war) he has to spend far too long quietly smoothing things over; like this meeting with Wen. His initial responses always shake everyone up and subsequently hamper a possible thawing of relations between the parties.

Sparhawk · 12-10-2003, 06:04 AM

It was a realpolitik decision. We need China's help and pressure on North Korea. What we don't need is a belligerent and bellicose China in addition to the problems we already have on the Korean peninsula. Although I can't help but be shamed when we take the side of the dictator over the democracy....

mml · 12-10-2003, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sparhawk
It was a realpolitik decision. We need China's help and pressure on North Korea. What we don't need is a belligerent and bellicose China in addition to the problems we already have on the Korean peninsula. Although I can't help but be shamed when we take the side of the dictator over the democracy....

Exactly right, it is just the reality of international politics.

Charlatan · 12-10-2003, 10:54 AM

and what of the Taiwanese people? The people who were there before the Chinese nationalists decided to move in?

That aside... this could mark the end of Taiwan as it is. Without the support of the US (as there was under other admins) Taiwan is a ripe plum just waiting for China to "bring it back into the fold".

Sparhawk · 12-10-2003, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Charlatan
and what of the Taiwanese people? The people who were there before the Chinese nationalists decided to move in?

That aside... this could mark the end of Taiwan as it is. Without the support of the US (as there was under other admins) Taiwan is a ripe plum just waiting for China to "bring it back into the fold".

Not quite. Every US administration, including this one, have been pretty firm in maintaining the status quo. An invasion by China would be a significant upset to that status quo-not to mention the US promise to defend Taiwan from attack.

Ustwo · 12-10-2003, 11:54 AM

Be interesting if China has the balls to DO anything if Tiawan decides to vote anyways.

Of course we will defend them, so I doubt China will do anything if they are smart, its not time for them to threaten WWIII, they aren't ready yet.

wilbjammin · 12-10-2003, 01:28 PM

Quote:

and what of the Taiwanese people? The people who were there before the Chinese nationalists decided to move in?

They didn't go anywhere, their political reality just changed quite a bit. The Taiwanese people welcomed the Nationalists at first, they just couldn't have known that they'd never were going to leave. Not that Taiwan was ever all that seperate from China anyway. The radical Maoists scared the government in Taiwan just as much as in the rest of China. In any event, it is helpful to think of Taiwan as the second China. There's the communist China, and there's the leftover nationalist China in Taiwan.

dy156 · 12-10-2003, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sparhawk
It was a realpolitik decision. We need China's help and pressure on North Korea. What we don't need is a belligerent and bellicose China in addition to the problems we already have on the Korean peninsula. Although I can't help but be shamed when we take the side of the dictator over the democracy....

Yup.

I don't know whether to be irritated that Bush's famous resolve for doing what he believes is right on principle has its limits, or to be relieved that it does. The US military cannot easily deal with another serious situation right now, even if it would not involve any ground troops or actaul fighting. If this heats up, we'd send lots of ships to the region. I also doubt that we could effectively lean on North Korea while focusing a whole lot of attention on China.

Man, I sure wish Japan could come up with an effective missile intercept system!

Zeld2.0 · 12-11-2003, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
Be interesting if China has the balls to DO anything if Tiawan decides to vote anyways.

Of course we will defend them, so I doubt China will do anything if they are smart, its not time for them to threaten WWIII, they aren't ready yet.

Not necessarily true. Myself having heritage in China and family members on half my family from China (hell my grandfather fought the communists, then the japanese, then the communists again with the Nationalists before going to Taiwan with the family) - I can say that a lot of the situation isn't so easy as it was before.

Before the U.S. recognized China it was simple - Taiwan was the real government. People do have to realize that Taiwan is not considered a nation by the U.S., despite the rhetoric we have, and supporting Taiwan or not is much more complex than "they invaded, we fight, etc."

China honestly is in no need to take Taiwan, if anything, much of it is principle and grudges left over from 50 years ago. China still suffers from many humanitarian issues and violations and what not, but its defenitely different from the Mao era. China has gone a long way in the last 10 years, and their influence in world economy is defenitely a large one. Any war with China right now would prove to be a huge blow for the U.S. economy, which is still in recovery mode.

And the fact is, going to war over Taiwan is not in teh greatest interest of any nation, and most people from Taiwan agree that the U.S. probably won't be willing to go to war so readily over any issues there right now. In the Cold War, stakes in Taiwan were larger as part of the containment of Communism. Now in the post-Cold War, containment and what not are not such alrge issues.

As for my take, I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, I love Taiwan, and I wish democracy and freedom could be seen throughout all of China, not just Taiwan. On the other hand, realistically speaking, Taiwan is a sinking nation, and it would prove far more beneficial to Taiwan to join with China, provided China is willing to continue its trend in improving the nation.

And I do emphasize to everyone that much of the issue isn't political or anything, much of it is ideological grudges left over from years and years of both sides being brainwashed by their governments into saying they were "right" and the othersides "wrong." Much of the arguments between the nations are purely based on symbolic meanings, and not necessarily realistic claims. And do note that Taiwan is not a nation even recognized by the U.S. - in fact it is recognized by very very few nations, and thus in the event of war with China, its not so easy as in the past to have the "demcoracies vs. communism" because the lines have been blurred by far.

XenuHubbard · 12-12-2003, 08:00 AM

The Nationalists are not in power anymore.
The current debacle is regarding a referendum whether or not the Taiwanese govt. should ask China to aim it's missiles elsewhere. In essence, complete populist bullshit.

The current Taiwanese government wants an independent Taiwan, but that and the White Terror during the KMT years are pretty much the only things they have going for them. They don't want to give up the joker they have up the sleeve this early on.

Giving the island the name "Taiwan", would mean a complete step away from any China-policy. One of the conditions China has imposed is that there is no name change, since it would mean a step away from the original policies.

The Nationalists and the Communist party have been giving each other handjobs for quite some time anyway. The Status Quo is a pretty damn good agreement. China doesn't lose face or power, and Taiwan is able to function as an independent country, apart from not entering state-organizations.

The referendum is a big joke anyway - it will be the later referendum on independence that might cause trouble.

For me, I just wish the asshats in Taiwanese politics would come up with a plan for the economy. Hell, saying ANYTHING that isn't about China, which in my eyes is a non-issue, would be a vast improvement. The current state of the democracy in Taiwan is a merger of the worst of the American mudslinging, and complete fucking silence.

As for China - the issue will solve itself, if given time. China will have enough problems soon enough. As for freedom - China is pretty much where Taiwan was 25 years ago.

As a resident in Taiwan, I wouldn't vote even if I could. None of the parties has taken the responsibilities of politics in a democracy seriously. The parliament is mafia-infested, and even though I read all three English-language newspapers every day, I have no idea where any party stands apart from the China issue, and a ridiculous scheme regarding how much money should be borrowed to get the economy moving.

Ask anybody who lived in Taiwan for a while about politics, and prepare yourself for a rant.

charlesesl · 03-20-2004, 07:02 PM

You idiots should mind ur own business more.
Abuse in tibit - have any of u been to tibit? its funny how most of you ignorant dipshits take the word of mouth and starts yelling "free tibit". what most (all) of u dont understand is that tibit was not rich before the rist of the communist government. and the partly let them remain pretty much to their own will. which for better for worse made them the same backward people they still are today.
taiwan is a reminent of the chinese civil war. through time they degenerated to what they are today. trapped in their small mind frame and thinking that they are different from the rest of the people. they think their screwed up democrecy is worth protecting for. bunch of idiots.

most of u think china is some rogue communist country bent of evil deeds. u guys should either go to china to see for urself, or just jump of the world trade center.

PS: forgot ur arrogence cost u that 2 huge ass building. my bad, pick some other building.

seretogis · 03-20-2004, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by charlesesl
You idiots should mind ur own business more.
Abuse in tibit - have any of u been to tibit? its funny how most of you ignorant dipshits take the word of mouth and starts yelling "free tibit". what most (all) of u dont understand is that tibit was not rich before the rist of the communist government. and the partly let them remain pretty much to their own will. which for better for worse made them the same backward people they still are today.
taiwan is a reminent of the chinese civil war. through time they degenerated to what they are today. trapped in their small mind frame and thinking that they are different from the rest of the people. they think their screwed up democrecy is worth protecting for. bunch of idiots.

most of u think china is some rogue communist country bent of evil deeds. u guys should either go to china to see for urself, or just jump of the world trade center.

PS: forgot ur arrogence cost u that 2 huge ass building. my bad, pick some other building.

JumpinJesus · 03-20-2004, 09:49 PM

Sometimes a good laugh is better than a smart comment. Thank you, seretogis, for giving me a good chuckle.

Oh, btw, I am not informed enough on this situation to give an intelligent response, so I will remain silent for the time being.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled pontificating.

ChrisJericho · 03-21-2004, 11:05 PM

Nothing surprises me about Bush anymore.

archer2371 · 03-23-2004, 05:56 PM

Actually, this is a continuation of the One China Policy, it's nothing different that what the Presidential Administrations have done since Nixon. I guarantee that this is what Clinton or Bush 41, or Carter would have done. I don't know why y'all are so upset over this, it is merely a continuation of a policy that the United States has held for years.

Yakk · 03-24-2004, 09:02 AM

Charalan:

Quote:

I am not an American so I don't know what policies are what, but can someone explain the difference between foreign policies which are agreed on or not between the U.S and other countries and how or why the U.S can decide who becomes a sovereign independent country or not? As redundant as it may sound,isn't that what the U.N is for?

The USA has a massive military presence near Taiwan, making a military attack by China... dangerous.

As such, those protected by the USA might want to know the position of the USA on an issue, as might China.

Ustwo:

Quote:

Be interesting if China has the balls to DO anything if Tiawan decides to vote anyways.

You have an interesting critiria for "interesting". "Bloody fucking frightening" is more how I would describe it.

Quote:

Of course we will defend them, so I doubt China will do anything if they are smart, its not time for them to threaten WWIII, they aren't ready yet.

What do you mean, of course? Are you willing to die for Taiwan?

And in a war between China and the USA, I'd expect massive civilian casualties in the continental USA. It would be a war like none the US has ever fought. Body counts that would make WWII look like a picnic.

The USA doesn't have the balls to die for Taiwan.

I'm just not certain China does either.

No direct war between two nuclear powers has ever happened. The world will be pretty fucked if two powers the strength of USA and China come to blows.

Superbelt · 03-24-2004, 09:18 AM

12-09-2003, 07:33 PM	#5 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	Speaking to reporters in the Oval Office after a 40-minute meeting with Wen, Bush said he had told the premier, "The United States policy is one China." "We oppose any unilateral decision by either China or Taiwan to change the status quo," Bush said, "and the comments and actions made by the leader of Taiwan indicate that he may be willing to make decisions unilaterally, to change the status quo, which we oppose." Forgive my ignorance,but when was George Bush made King of the World. __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

12-09-2003, 08:57 PM	#8 (permalink)
wilbjammin * * *	Taiwan is a funny circumstance. I don't know what to think, it basically has served as the nationalist refuge from the revolution. They really are two very different places because of the differences between government philosophies, yet China isn't exactly the same Maoist state that it used to be, and the nationalists aren't exactly the same as they used to be. It just shows how grudges can be held for a long time. I don't think I'd be particularly excited to cooperate with a nation that is pointing a bunch of missiles at me. A united China/Taiwan would have more of a look of cooperation rather than domination, I'd think. It kinda reminds me of our relationship with Cuba in a way. Sometimes holding grudges really creates a good political mechanism for the ruling party... opposition to something external can create order, I guess. __________________ Innominate.

12-10-2003, 06:04 AM	#12 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	It was a realpolitik decision. We need China's help and pressure on North Korea. What we don't need is a belligerent and bellicose China in addition to the problems we already have on the Korean peninsula. Although I can't help but be shamed when we take the side of the dictator over the democracy.... __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

12-10-2003, 10:54 AM	#14 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	and what of the Taiwanese people? The people who were there before the Chinese nationalists decided to move in? That aside... this could mark the end of Taiwan as it is. Without the support of the US (as there was under other admins) Taiwan is a ripe plum just waiting for China to "bring it back into the fold". __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

12-10-2003, 11:54 AM	#16 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Be interesting if China has the balls to DO anything if Tiawan decides to vote anyways. Of course we will defend them, so I doubt China will do anything if they are smart, its not time for them to threaten WWIII, they aren't ready yet. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

12-09-2003, 06:36 PM	#2 (permalink)
hiredgun Addict	Look! Bush hates freedom!

12-09-2003, 06:39 PM	#3 (permalink)
Easytiger Insane Location: Tigerland	The Taiwan/China impasse is quite the mess. Both feel that they are the "real" China and neither are opposed to a little bit of sabre-rattling. I guess Bush isn't going to do much about Tibet either. It's a damn shame when human rights abusers have an industrious population of over one billion (and a great big fuck-off army as well). China's too valuable a trade partner to make an enemy out of, I guess.

12-10-2003, 05:40 AM	#11 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	I remember that back in April 2001, Bush was seemingly much more pro-Taiwan when he publicly stated that he would send US troops to Taiwan if China attacked. China responded to these comments by stating that the US was heading "further down a dangerous road" with these comments. US allies urged restraint. It was seen as being pretty big at the time. It really seems a lot like the Bush we're used to; quite punchy, quite aggressive. I do wonder if this manner of his actually consistently harms his ability to engage in effective diplomacy. He always goes in guns blazing and then (because we're talking about diplomacy here, not war) he has to spend far too long quietly smoothing things over; like this meeting with Wen. His initial responses always shake everyone up and subsequently hamper a possible thawing of relations between the parties.

12-12-2003, 08:00 AM	#20 (permalink)
XenuHubbard Cute and Cuddly Location: Teegeeack.	The Nationalists are not in power anymore. The current debacle is regarding a referendum whether or not the Taiwanese govt. should ask China to aim it's missiles elsewhere. In essence, complete populist bullshit. The current Taiwanese government wants an independent Taiwan, but that and the White Terror during the KMT years are pretty much the only things they have going for them. They don't want to give up the joker they have up the sleeve this early on. Giving the island the name "Taiwan", would mean a complete step away from any China-policy. One of the conditions China has imposed is that there is no name change, since it would mean a step away from the original policies. The Nationalists and the Communist party have been giving each other handjobs for quite some time anyway. The Status Quo is a pretty damn good agreement. China doesn't lose face or power, and Taiwan is able to function as an independent country, apart from not entering state-organizations. The referendum is a big joke anyway - it will be the later referendum on independence that might cause trouble. For me, I just wish the asshats in Taiwanese politics would come up with a plan for the economy. Hell, saying ANYTHING that isn't about China, which in my eyes is a non-issue, would be a vast improvement. The current state of the democracy in Taiwan is a merger of the worst of the American mudslinging, and complete fucking silence. As for China - the issue will solve itself, if given time. China will have enough problems soon enough. As for freedom - China is pretty much where Taiwan was 25 years ago. As a resident in Taiwan, I wouldn't vote even if I could. None of the parties has taken the responsibilities of politics in a democracy seriously. The parliament is mafia-infested, and even though I read all three English-language newspapers every day, I have no idea where any party stands apart from the China issue, and a ridiculous scheme regarding how much money should be borrowed to get the economy moving. Ask anybody who lived in Taiwan for a while about politics, and prepare yourself for a rant. __________________ The above was written by a true prophet. Trust me. "What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

03-20-2004, 07:02 PM	#21 (permalink)
charlesesl Psycho	You idiots should mind ur own business more. Abuse in tibit - have any of u been to tibit? its funny how most of you ignorant dipshits take the word of mouth and starts yelling "free tibit". what most (all) of u dont understand is that tibit was not rich before the rist of the communist government. and the partly let them remain pretty much to their own will. which for better for worse made them the same backward people they still are today. taiwan is a reminent of the chinese civil war. through time they degenerated to what they are today. trapped in their small mind frame and thinking that they are different from the rest of the people. they think their screwed up democrecy is worth protecting for. bunch of idiots. most of u think china is some rogue communist country bent of evil deeds. u guys should either go to china to see for urself, or just jump of the world trade center. PS: forgot ur arrogence cost u that 2 huge ass building. my bad, pick some other building. __________________ It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. Dr. Viktor E. Frankl

03-20-2004, 09:49 PM	#23 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	Sometimes a good laugh is better than a smart comment. Thank you, seretogis, for giving me a good chuckle. Oh, btw, I am not informed enough on this situation to give an intelligent response, so I will remain silent for the time being. Now, back to your regularly scheduled pontificating. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

03-21-2004, 11:05 PM	#24 (permalink)
ChrisJericho eat more fruit Location: Seattle	Nothing surprises me about Bush anymore. __________________ "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

03-23-2004, 05:56 PM	#25 (permalink)
archer2371 Sarge of Blood Gulch Red Outpost Number One Location: On the front lines against our very enemy	Actually, this is a continuation of the One China Policy, it's nothing different that what the Presidential Administrations have done since Nixon. I guarantee that this is what Clinton or Bush 41, or Carter would have done. I don't know why y'all are so upset over this, it is merely a continuation of a policy that the United States has held for years. __________________ "This ain't no Ice Cream Social!" "Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it." "I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

03-24-2004, 09:18 AM	#27 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	nm Last edited by Superbelt; 03-24-2004 at 09:24 AM..