[Dirty] Politics as usual.. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

seretogis · 11-05-2003, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Democrats Mull Politicizing Iraq War Intelligence

Wednesday, November 05, 2003

WASHINGTON — Fox News has obtained a document believed to have been written by the Democratic staff of the Senate Intelligence Committee (search) that outlines a strategy for exposing what it calls "the administration's dubious motives" in the lead-up to the war in Iraq.

The memo, provided late Tuesday by a source on the Committee and reported by Fox News' Sean Hannity, discusses the timing of a possible investigation into pre-war Iraq (search) intelligence in such a way that it could bring maximum embarrassment to President Bush in his re-election campaign.

Among other things, the memo recommends that Democrats "prepare to launch an investigation when it becomes clear we have exhausted the opportunity to usefully collaborate with the [Senate] majority. We can pull the trigger on an independent investigation of the administration's use of intelligence at any time — but we can only do so once ... the best time would probably be next year."

The last paragraph of the memo reads, "Intelligence issues are clearly secondary to the public's concern regarding the insurgency in Iraq."

Committee Chairman Pat Roberts (search), R-Kan., appeared clearly shocked by the memo, which Sen. Jay Rockefeller (search), D-W. Va., ranking member on the Intelligence Committee, acknowledged was written in draft form and not meant for distribution.

Roberts said Tuesday a leaked strategy memo from Rockefeller's staff "exposes politics in its most raw form."

The memo discusses strategy for "revealing the misleading, if not flagrantly dishonest, methods and motives of senior administration officials who made the case for unilateral pre-emptive war." It discussed how Democrats could press for an independent investigation that has already been
rejected by the Republican-led Congress or launch their own investigation.

In a statement, Roberts said that the memo "appears to be a road map for how the Democrats intend to politicize what should be a bipartisan, objective review of prewar intelligence."

Rockefeller did not say who wrote the memo.

"The draft memo was not approved nor was it shared with any member of the Senate Intelligence Committee or anyone else," he said. "It was likely taken from a waste basket or through unauthorized computer access."

Rockefeller added, "The memo clearly reflects staff frustration with the conduct of the Senate Intelligence Committee investigation and the difficulties of obtaining information from the administration."

Roberts said he believes the strategy outlined in the memo may constitute a violation of Senate ethics rules, an issue he may pursue with the ethics committee.

"I have no idea how this became public. I am a little stunned. You can't politicize the Intelligence Committee. The memo is blatantly partisan. Members of the committee on the Republican side are frustrated, outraged and indignant. I hope we can get past this," Roberts said.

While the memo does not appear to be written as a straight political strategy piece, the memo does suggest using Roberts, who is described as helpful and willing to make concessions to Democrats. The memo advises continuing to seek favors from Roberts until and as long as it is useful.

Despite the memo's backhanded praise of Roberts, Rockefeller said Democrats are frustrated with the cooperation they are receiving from the chairman.

"Exploring or asserting the rights of the minority under the intelligence committee rules in no way amounts to politicizing intelligence. The American people deserve a full accounting of why we sent our sons and daughters into war," he said.

Members of the Senate Intelligence Committee have complained about the slowness of the Bush administration to provide requested materials and set last Friday as the response deadline. The senators said three federal agencies have complied with their request. But the White House, while saying it would work with the committee, has not agreed to comply.

On Sunday, Roberts announced during a televised interview that the White House had agreed to supply the requested documents and the interviews.

"I probably spoke too hastily," Roberts said Tuesday. "When you are dealing with the White House, they want to make sure they are not getting into a precedent in regard to various documents used by the executive."

He said a White House official, whom he declined to identify, left him with the impression last weekend the material would be provided. Asked if there was further communication after his remarks Sunday, he said, "Yeah -- in the Monday Washington Post."

He said White House comments in the newspaper distancing it from Roberts' statements "prompted meaningful dialogue between me and the White House."

But he said he was satisfied with the outcome of the conversations. "I think we'll have a positive relationship, and I think the documents will be provided. And the interviews," he said.

Rockefeller wasn't as confident.

"It's very hard for me to come to believe that the White House is going to cooperate on things which potentially could put them in a different light," he said, speaking separately to reporters.

Rockefeller said if the committee doesn't receive the material it seeks, the leaders will call the department heads, "and the next step after that one considers very, very carefully the subpoena option."

"This is not a game," he said. "This is a question of how did we get into this war."

Roberts said subpoenas would be a last resort. "I think we can work this out without any subpoenas," he said.

Fox News' Brian Wilson and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

More of the usual bullshit to me, Republicans and Democrats using everything to their own political advantage, regardless of what is best for the American public. Hopefully as more and more examples of these political games are made public people will begin to wonder why they're putting up with it.

j8ear · 11-05-2003, 06:20 AM

I suspected something along these tactics would surface from the democrats. Just like I believe that just slightly before the next presidential election, the current administration will miraculously produce BOTH UBL, Saddam, and a few Medal of Honor recipients.

Good luck democrats. Unless you produce public enemies one and two it's game over. Good luck Americans, because your in trouble whether the democrats can pander and shill their way to victory or republicans can manipulate and intimidate their way to re-election.

-bear

geep · 11-05-2003, 06:28 AM

Just further proof that politics has become a game to the players and is no longer government.

Conclamo Ludus · 11-05-2003, 06:33 AM

I say let them try it. If they really politicize it as much as this memo declares, than it'll probably blow up in their face when public opinion weighs in. Especially since this memo has been leaked already. I can only see this doing damage to democrats if they make the Intelligence a partisan witch hunt. Its really not in their best interest to do so.

Kadath · 11-05-2003, 06:34 AM

Throwing up our hands at politics sure is fun. We're so jaded and worldly and above it all.
This board feels more and more like a masturbatory exercise rather than a forum for discussion...though I suppose an internet message board is generally that anyway...

captain · 11-05-2003, 08:10 AM

Politicizing the intelligence is a no win situation for democrats. The middle of the electorate (the ones who control the elections) are too smart for that and will recognize it for what it is.

The core left and right will not pay attention anyway.

Killconey · 11-05-2003, 08:49 AM

Interesting gambit that might have worked if the information hadn't leaked before the Democrats could try it. While I do think that the war and all actions of the president should be monitored, I think that Congress should have the maturity to keep it objective.

And Kadath, maybe this board is not for you then. I know when I feel that Tilted Politics has gotten too out of hand, I simply stop posting on it for a while.

Kadath · 11-05-2003, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Killconey
And Kadath, maybe this board is not for you then. I know when I feel that Tilted Politics has gotten too out of hand, I simply stop posting on it for a while.

Your point is well taken. I have stepped back a few times in the past when I found myself getting too worked up. This, however, isn't "out of hand," it's malaise. And not to get too meta on you, but if I were to step back and say I was above the board, wouldn't that be terribly ironic?

Conclamo Ludus · 11-05-2003, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kadath
Throwing up our hands at politics sure is fun. We're so jaded and worldly and above it all.
This board feels more and more like a masturbatory exercise rather than a forum for discussion...though I suppose an internet message board is generally that anyway...

I'm not sure what your point was in response to. Could you clarify a little?

maximusveritas · 11-05-2003, 10:22 AM

How are the Democrats politicizing the intelligence? Its been politicized from Day One.
The White House has been trying its best to keep the truth from getting out there. The Republicans on the Committee have been all too willing to let them get away with this since it serves the Republican interests.
The Democrats, in response, have been trying hard to get the truth released since it serves their interests. All this memo shows is their plan for doing so. Are their motives dubious? Sure. But their actions are something all Americans should support.

To suggest that its only the Democrats politicizing the intelligence is intellectually dishonest and partisan. As an American citizens, I'm only concerned in finding out the truth, no matter whose interests it serves.

Conclamo Ludus · 11-05-2003, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by maximusveritas
How are the Democrats politicizing the intelligence? Its been politicized from Day One.
The White House has been trying its best to keep the truth from getting out there. The Republicans on the Committee have been all too willing to let them get away with this since it serves the Republican interests.
The Democrats, in response, have been trying hard to get the truth released since it serves their interests. All this memo shows is their plan for doing so. Are their motives dubious? Sure. But their actions are something all Americans should support.

To suggest that its only the Democrats politicizing the intelligence is intellectually dishonest and partisan. As an American citizens, I'm only concerned in finding out the truth, no matter whose interests it serves.

The problem is I doubt you'll get the truth out of either side.

onetime2 · 11-05-2003, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by maximusveritas

To suggest that its only the Democrats politicizing the intelligence is intellectually dishonest and partisan. As an American citizens, I'm only concerned in finding out the truth, no matter whose interests it serves.

Both sides look to spin information, the Republicans are trying to give the Dems as little as possible so they don't have much to scream about come election time. Both parties have agendas in this and the memo makes it clear that the Dems aren't just after the truth, they're after any scrap that will hurt the administration's chance for re-election. Not that any of this should surprise anyone, but your assertion that the Dems are only after the "truth" is just as disingenuous and partisan as those only pointing to the Dems as politicizing the situation.

Face it, the situation is politicized by both sides. Neither is strictly after the truth and neither is completely focused on doing what's right for the country in this.

Kadath · 11-05-2003, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Conclamo Ludus
I'm not sure what your point was in response to. Could you clarify a little?

Yeah, when I posted and saw yours above mine I wondered if there would be confusion. I was referring mostly to geep and j8ear's comments, though to seretogis' as well. As I just implied, I did not have a chance to read your post before composing mine.

Conclamo Ludus · 11-05-2003, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kadath
Yeah, when I posted and saw yours above mine I wondered if there would be confusion. I was referring mostly to geep and j8ear's comments, though to seretogis' as well. As I just implied, I did not have a chance to read your post before composing mine.

I gotcha. Maybe it was part of the irony but isn't throwing your hands up at people just throwing their hands up another masturbatory exercise.

I throw my hands up regularly around here, but I feel that it is all a part of the discussion. I don't really get the impression that we're above it, obviously we are discussing it, so I don't think any of us can claim that we are above politics. Some of us may be above the vitriolic poisonous type of partisanship. This is what I usually throw my hands up at. I would agree though that throwing your hands up at it is almost as counterproductive as making everything extremely partisan. Oh well. I'm going to go throw my hands up in masturbatory ecstasy.

maximusveritas · 11-05-2003, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by onetime2
your assertion that the Dems are only after the "truth" is just as disingenuous and partisan as those only pointing to the Dems as politicizing the situation.

I never made that assertion. I think its very clear from my post that I think both sides are looking to serve their own interests. There were many instances during the Clinton administration for example when the situation was reversed and Democrats were trying to keep the truth from being exposed since it would hurt them.
In this case, however, it is clear that it is the Republicans who are trying to keep the truth from being revealed. Why have they rejected Democratic proposals for an independent investigation? No one's calling for a partisan witch hunt here. All I want is for all the cards to be put out on the table. Then the American people can come to their own conclusion.

geep · 11-05-2003, 12:09 PM

I wasn't throwing my hands up in the air, nor was I masturbating with them. I firmly believe that the "game" has become more important than the result. I believe that politicians no longer strive to do what is right for the people they govern, their only concern is that their side wins the next "match". They con us into the debate like it means something, when in reality they're just selling us their product. Debates no longer lead to enlightenment.
I agree that many times these threads are nothing more than baseless arguments, but that doesn't mean I'm giving up. I am stating my opinion, nothing more, nothing less. I'm truly sorry you do not agree with it.

onetime2 · 11-05-2003, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by maximusveritas
I never made that assertion. I think its very clear from my post that I think both sides are looking to serve their own interests. There were many instances during the Clinton administration for example when the situation was reversed and Democrats were trying to keep the truth from being exposed since it would hurt them.
In this case, however, it is clear that it is the Republicans who are trying to keep the truth from being revealed. Why have they rejected Democratic proposals for an independent investigation? No one's calling for a partisan witch hunt here. All I want is for all the cards to be put out on the table. Then the American people can come to their own conclusion.

From your post it wasn't clear to me that you were saying that. Maybe it's just me, but the use of the word "truth" seems to imply that it's some sort of cover up. Perhaps "details" would have been a better word?

As far as rejecting an investigation I think the agenda described in the memo outlined in this thread pretty much says it all. It's part of the game. Everyone knows the Dems want the info not for the sake of getting at the truth but to pick out bits of it that suit their agenda (just as the Republicans would do if the situation were reversed).

I think we're in agreement on the issue and the wording we use is getting in the way.

11-05-2003, 06:20 AM	#2 (permalink)
j8ear Gentlemen Farmer Location: Middle of nowhere, Jersey	I suspected something along these tactics would surface from the democrats. Just like I believe that just slightly before the next presidential election, the current administration will miraculously produce BOTH UBL, Saddam, and a few Medal of Honor recipients. Good luck democrats. Unless you produce public enemies one and two it's game over. Good luck Americans, because your in trouble whether the democrats can pander and shill their way to victory or republicans can manipulate and intimidate their way to re-election. -bear __________________ It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

11-05-2003, 06:33 AM	#4 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	I say let them try it. If they really politicize it as much as this memo declares, than it'll probably blow up in their face when public opinion weighs in. Especially since this memo has been leaked already. I can only see this doing damage to democrats if they make the Intelligence a partisan witch hunt. Its really not in their best interest to do so. __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

11-05-2003, 06:34 AM	#5 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	Throwing up our hands at politics sure is fun. We're so jaded and worldly and above it all. This board feels more and more like a masturbatory exercise rather than a forum for discussion...though I suppose an internet message board is generally that anyway... __________________ it's quiet in here

11-05-2003, 08:10 AM	#6 (permalink)
captain Crazy	Politicizing the intelligence is a no win situation for democrats. The middle of the electorate (the ones who control the elections) are too smart for that and will recognize it for what it is. The core left and right will not pay attention anyway. __________________ captain

11-05-2003, 08:49 AM	#7 (permalink)
Killconey Crazy Location: Various places in the Midwest, all depending on when I'm posting.	Interesting gambit that might have worked if the information hadn't leaked before the Democrats could try it. While I do think that the war and all actions of the president should be monitored, I think that Congress should have the maturity to keep it objective. And Kadath, maybe this board is not for you then. I know when I feel that Tilted Politics has gotten too out of hand, I simply stop posting on it for a while. __________________ Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

11-05-2003, 06:28 AM	#3 (permalink)
geep Insane Location: Imprisoned in Ecotopia	Just further proof that politics has become a game to the players and is no longer government.

11-05-2003, 10:22 AM	#10 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	How are the Democrats politicizing the intelligence? Its been politicized from Day One. The White House has been trying its best to keep the truth from getting out there. The Republicans on the Committee have been all too willing to let them get away with this since it serves the Republican interests. The Democrats, in response, have been trying hard to get the truth released since it serves their interests. All this memo shows is their plan for doing so. Are their motives dubious? Sure. But their actions are something all Americans should support. To suggest that its only the Democrats politicizing the intelligence is intellectually dishonest and partisan. As an American citizens, I'm only concerned in finding out the truth, no matter whose interests it serves.

11-05-2003, 12:09 PM	#16 (permalink)
geep Insane Location: Imprisoned in Ecotopia	I wasn't throwing my hands up in the air, nor was I masturbating with them. I firmly believe that the "game" has become more important than the result. I believe that politicians no longer strive to do what is right for the people they govern, their only concern is that their side wins the next "match". They con us into the debate like it means something, when in reality they're just selling us their product. Debates no longer lead to enlightenment. I agree that many times these threads are nothing more than baseless arguments, but that doesn't mean I'm giving up. I am stating my opinion, nothing more, nothing less. I'm truly sorry you do not agree with it.