matthew330

Off topic but this is what I really don't get:

In the last two days - total of about an hour and a half of flipping channels,

90210 rerun: whole things about a woman's right to choose

some crappy Whoopie Goldberg sitcom: whole thing is overtly bush bashing and anti-conservative

Simpsons: that whole deal (granted it is a retarted reason to sue)

And liberals think they have any sort of argument when it comes to there not being a bias in the media. So what if conservatives have a few am talk radio shows and a few overt conservatives on foxnews (only place on tv you'll find them).

What annoys me is that theres an outcry over these when they appear; however, there's no ambiguity about what they are. They are political talk shows from people who make no bones about what their political stance is. Sitcoms, drama tv shows, regular frickin tv all over the place pushes liberal agenda's and consistently pokes fun at conservatives. Only people who are already involved in politics are gonna watch/listen to a political show, and probably already have a well formed opinion anyway. There are a shitload of people who don't care about politics and are politically ignorant that i'm sure base whatever political beliefs they have on what they've learned from watching sitcoms (unaware of course where they learned their info)

Same thing with newspapers - baltimore sun, washington post, new york times. I don't think anyone would try to argue that they aren't far left leaning; however - they don't portray themselves as such. And again - when something like the Washington Times is published (which is very straighforward about who and what they are) - liberals won't frickin shut up about it.

What gives?

2wolves

That a representative republic by it's very nature is liberal. That semi-open market capitalism by it's very nature is liberal. When placed of the spectrum of political thought the United States is a liberal creation from day one.

2Wolves

Phaenx

Free market isn't really a political thing, most everyone is all for it really. No idea where you get your basis for the republic comment, I'd rather not ask.

__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

matthew330

You're gonna have to be a little more specific about the correlation 2wolves - but regardless, uhhh - see above.

filtherton

Nobody gets any kind of serious political idealogy from whoopi, or 90210, or the simpsons. I've seen plenty of content on television that i didn't agree with. None of it had any effect on what i believed, aside from deciding not to watch a particular show. Besides, i'm sure someone who watches tv more than i do could come up with some examples of conservative values displayed on tv. Isn't seventh heaven pretty solid in its conservative values? I've seen episodes of the simpsons that endorse wholeheartedly conservative family values, the value of religion, etc.

As for new outlets, i think your examples could be considered centrist just as easily as they could be considered purely liberal. Calling the NYT far left leaning is a bit of an exageration. Maybe a little left, but no more left than the wall street journal is right. I know plenty of people who think the NYT is conservative, and it is, in relation to their values.

I think this whole media bias issues is really a nonissue. There is no way for the media to be unbiased, and people on either side of the aisle seem to only acknowledge the bias AGAINST their side. If the media is so biased against conservative values, why are conservative values becoming more popular in our country? How did the republicans get their majority in the house and senate plus the white house all while enduring the onslaught of liberal media bias? If they could achieve all that despite the alleged liberal media bias, why is it even an issue?

captain

I don't know anyone who thinks the NYT is consertive. Their editorial page is as far to the left as you can get. But that is their right(no pun intended). The problem is when the news is slanted to remove all but their editorial opinion. They don't report both sides. So it winds up half of the truth. And as my grandad used to say-half of the truth is a lie.

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captain

2wolves

It's the direct result of our political system. Repressive governments, left and right, can not have open business because that would entail handing power over to those outside the established government.

An example or two: Strategic metals; during the existance of the U.S.S.R platinum production and distribution were tightly controlled to bring about maximum foreign hard currency. With the Soviets hold unknown quantities of reserve they could, and did, flood or semi-starve the market. #2. Food stuffs; the right-ist leaders of Guatemala with the urging of the United Fruit Company were not about to allow field workers to organize and decided to kill them to maintain high profit margins. Result was a civil war of over a generation in duration and little to no fruit revenue for hard currency.

Over concentrations of political power and capital do not allow open markets. For examples within the borders of the United States I suggest examining the Trusts of the late 19th century and how regulation helped induce more productivity and great access to open markets.

2Wolves

filtherton

1/2truth=1lie
1/2truth+1/2truth=1truth
1lie+1lie=1truth

Undisputable Proof

fishin

I agree with you 100% matthew330.

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liberals rule. phhtt.

HarmlessRabbit

As a liberal, I'd like to ask what I could say in response to your post that would change your mind in any way? Is there anything you would actually like to discuss, or is this just another one of those "frickin' liberals" posts?

Personally, I see a very broad spectrum of political thought in everything you just mentioned. Apparently, to you, liberal means "anything matthew330 doesn't agree with politically".

Many conservatives and republicans are pro-choice, for example, for a variety of reasons.

Would you like to discuss any facts or opinions about the media, or is this just yet another liberal/conservative bashing thread?

matthew330

Fact: Bias in media is a topic of political discussion. Two recent books "Bias" and "What Liberal Media" have been written about it.

Fact: There is a population of people (i.e - liberals, no need to take offense) who dislike Fox News and AM radio talk shows.

Opinion (sort of): This because they present (and fox news not even exclusively) a conservative viewpoint.

Fact: That same population of people point to those who own the media to suggest that not only is there not a liberal bias, but a conservative bias.

Opinion: I think that argument is a joke because, Fact: Regular TV shows that don't give any indication of having any political affiliation, consistently promote liberal viewpoints and bash conservatives, the few examples above are for purposes of illustrating this. (of course there are conservative pro-choicers and vice-versa, but your living under a rock if you don't see how this topic in particular is one of the most politically divided topics).

Fact: You don't have any thoughts on the matter other than "personally i see a wide variety blah blah blah", so why bother posting.

It was simply a posting of my observations on what has clearly been a topic of discussion. If you don't have anything to add, don't post.

matthew330

One more thing: going out on a limb here but:

Fact: If Friends had a sitcom and the entire thing were about abortion and everyone but one person were pro-life, and the one pro-choice person was made out to be a bumbling idiot with absolutely nothing to say other than "uhh, uhh woman's right to choose", you'd hear about it on news channels, pickets outside the tv station (who knows, perhaps you'd be on the front line), a banning of the television show, etc etc etc.

If you're honest with yourself you know damn well this would happen, so don't try to suggest that that's not a topic of political discord.

Sparhawk

Starting off your 'Fact' by using the word 'If' makes it sound a lot more like an opinion than an actual verifiable fact. As for the rest of it, you switch 'life' and 'choice' and you'd have the exact same scenario, which is why network tv tends to stay away from controversial issues like abortion.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

matthew330

Hence the "going out on a limb."

The original post was about how network TV absolutely does not stay away from controversial issues, an example of abortion was given. Damn, I'm starting to feel like a broken record. Screw it, this thread is going nowhere. I'll just assume we all agree with my original post since none of the content has been addressed - no clue where 2wolves was going with his post.

Ustwo

A big part of the problem with the press is WHO goes into journalism.

Mostly you get people who 'want to make a difference' or 'change the world' types (who have no freeking clue about the world to start with). These people of course don't DO anything, they don't create anything, don't produce, but they want to be the critic, They want things to be BETTER damn it, it shouldn't BE this way. So these bleeding hearts go into journalism.

They don't NEED a left-wing conspiracy because they ARE left wing. Something like 80% of the press core voted for Gore in 2000, and its been that way for as long as I can remember. When Fox news came on and DARED to present both sides of an issue, or GASP have someone who said they were conservative as an anchor they of course were horrified, but the real horror to them is they got found out. I personally always felt the press with left biased (as does most of American, including democrats), but I didn't know how BAD it was until the 2000 election. At that point, in the confusion with the lack of scripts and teleprompters for each story as it developed it REALLY came out. Even how they reported the split Florida supreme court vs. the split US supreme court (One was a decision, the other was a close split decision, even though both were equally split), showed that they had an agenda. What was even better is they started to ADMIT it after the fact with a little soul searching.

The same idea applies to actors. Who are these people? They are 'artists' pretending to be someone else, and they tend to be rather narcissistic. They don't 'do' things, they play pretend very well. This is not the kind of thing a conservative goes into as a rule. Also the odds of 'making it' in acting are very small, and a conservative isn't the type who would risk everything on such bad odds. I love doing comedy, I've been told many times I should have gone into acting or the like, but when I was in school the choice of probable poverty vs. a medical education was a no brainier. So you basically the people who go into acting tend to be on the left, and feel they are more important then they are, (not saying everyone on the left would take the poor odds or are narcissists) and being on the left they are not very tolerant of those on the right, so if you ARE a conservative actor you better keep your mouth shut.

So yes you will see left slanted news.

And yes you will see left slanted TV, West wing (leftwing) being one of the better examples.

And no there isn't much you can do about it, though the news at least has hope now.

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Darkblack

Are not most educators lefties also?

Sparhawk

No conservative actors huh....

<img src="http://www.townhall.com/hall_of_fame/smreagan.gif">

<img src="http://www.uta-arnold.de/arnold.jpg">

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Ustwo

Chuckle, a handful of conservatives in Hollywood does not balance make.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Ustwo

Yes and most of them are sucking off the public money tit. Those who can't do....

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Darkblack

Lol. K.

Sparhawk

I would think that someone who spent 13 years in post- high school education would have a little bit more respect for his educators...

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Ustwo

Maybe it was my exposure to them that lead to my lack of respect. I have respect for SOME of my educators, but most of them were crap compared to the people working in the field and none of them were very successful or hard working.

As a side note, based on GRE scores, which college major scores the lowest? (I'll give you a hint, they taught you)

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

JumpinJesus

Ustwo, as an educator, I find your generalization of a profession that assisted you in your career endeavors highly offensive. I wish to respond with two points that would logically follow your statement:

1. I am safe to assume that most doctors are sucking off the pharmaceutical tit and don't give a damn about their patients as long as the kickbacks continue.

2. Doctors are educated by teachers. If the educators are horrible, the doctors who were educated by them are horrible doctors.

I recall reading in another post that you dislike generalizations and labels. Why, then, do you use them against others.

I take great pride in what I do and believe the saying, "those who can't do, teach" is a highly unfair evaluation of a group of people who dedicate their lives hoping that those behind them succeed. Within every profession are those who give it a bad name, but somehow we have found a passion in bashing those who helped get us to those professions.

Most people who go to great lengths to point out the faults in the educational system have never spent time in front of a classroom doing what we do. The educational system is highly politicized and most faults that are found can be traced to that politicization. I wish it were otherwise, but it isn't.

Since you have taken an interest in my career, let me give you a glimpse into the day-to-day workings of what I deal with.

-I have 24 students, of which 4 speak no English (2 speak French, their families having fled the Congo's violent warfare. One speaks Spanish. The other speaks Laotian. I must be lousy for not being fluent in 4 languages.)

-One of my students was an eyewitness to his father's murder last year.

-One of my students was sexually abused for 6 years before being removed from her home and now makes sexual advances at both boys and girls in the classroom on a regular basis.

-One of my students receives a police-escort to school each day because he has been known to involve himself in crime when left to walk alone.

-One of my students has a father in jail and an uncle who was murdered at his home over Christmas last year.

-Three of my students had loving mothers who abused drugs while they were pregnant. One of them didn't speak until the 3rd grade and is still incapable of fastening buttons or zipping zippers.

-One has already attempted suicide and daily speaks of doing it again.

-16 of my students receive free lunch due to poverty.

-4 of my students receive reduced lunch due to near-poverty. What this means is that they're very likely to not have winter coats. It gets a little cold here in the winter and a coat would be nice.

It would be wonderful if all of those students in need were able to see a counselor (the one who witnessed his father's murder is seriously messed up) but the public got tired of us sucking on the public tit and took our counselor away. Actually, they didn't take her away, they just cut the funding for her services, because, you know, we leech off the public and those kids haven't really earned that money.

What the public <i><b>does</b></i> care about is making sure each of those kids can pass a standardized test (even my non-English students) to prove that I am doing my job and not just sitting around sucking on the public's tit. When my foreign-born students fail the test (because they can't read it and aren't allowed translators, but are required to take it anyway) that surely proves what a lousy educator I am, furthering the public's call to take more money away. The last time that happened, the funding was cut for the nursing program. Luckily, our students know to break a bone only on Thursdays, when she's there for half a day.

Many educators remain in the field despite the treatment they receive in the context of the comments similar to yours. Many that stay are damn good at what they do and sincerely care about their students. Some stay because of the summer vacations. None stay because of the pay. Many, however, are driven away into other professions. Unfortunately, many of the ones who leave are the ones we most need in our field. But with public attitudes like the one you have displayed, they see no reason to.

As I look over this, I realize that I may be hijacking the thread. I apologize for this. I just couldn't let the comment go unanswered.

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hiredgun

wow, Ustwo got shut down.

JumpinJesus: out of curiosity, where do you teach?

Stare At The Sun

Sitcoms are liberal

News shows are conservative

I think that about sums it up..

Ustwo

Sorry about the off topic, but this is an interesting topic in itself.


I hear this is true for some physicians, I am NOT a physician and for that matter never bothered to get a DEA number since in my line of work I never need to give anything stronger then an anti-biotic, and that’s very rare. (10 points if you can guess what I do )

Ironically my teachers from the med school tended to be the worst of the lot. Almost ALL of it was self taught. They give you an exam, you put on it what you learned in the books. Often the exam was a repeat for the last several years. I lost a LOT of faith in our medical system once I learned just how messed up it was at the education end. There were 2 exceptions to this, and they were very good educators, the rest just lectured, some couldn't even manage that, one showed up drunk.

Wrong. I posted I see no problem with accurate labels and generalizations.


In the sciences, teaching is a burden placed on researchers and TA's who would rather be doing something else. Many who fail at private practice end up teaching as well as those who wish to look important. "Oh the Dr. isn't in on Thursdays, he is teaching at the university."

I've done my share of teaching, and enjoyed it, but the beurocracy, inefficiency and low pay far overcame any enjoyment of teaching. I do think teachers are not paid enough, but that doesn't mean the current ones are worth more.

Deleted for length....

I'm sorry your kids are poor and messed up. We could give the schools more money and they would still be poor and messed up. Perhaps they need a voucher so they can go to a better school, let me give you some local info...

I'm all for giving money for special needs students and the like, but how much cash do we put into this government money pit before we say 'you have enough'.

Perhaps if the teachers unions were not based around job protection at the expense of quality teachers you would see me care a bit more. I like the MN plan, 100k a year but no unions. I do think teachers don't get paid enough, and I'll be happy to have them paid more once their job performance matters directly to them. Testing is a start, but there are flaws, I agree with that, but god help you if you try to say that your students don't perform well because they are from poor families and are 'low achievers' (PC talk for stupid).

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

HarmlessRabbit

So you can post your observations, but I can't post mine. I see. Nice contradiction of yourself within a one paragraph radius.

matthew330

I said it before, i'll say it agian.....If you don't have anything to add......

HarmlessRabbit

Exactly.

eple

You pretty much got owned bad already, but what do you mean by this? You just got a glimpse of a clearly underfunded school and you start voicing consern over the exessive spendings on education. Did you read jumpingJesus' post at all?

BTW name one investement that is better than that made in education the youth. Providing the best education system possible is one of the best way for any nation to spend their money.

Yah, and sorry for joining the hiijack.

JumpinJesus

One more off-topic post from me with apologies to matthew330.

hiredgun: I teach fourth grade in Columbus, Ohio. Believe it or not, I have one of the better classrooms.

Ustwo: if you can believe this, I actually despise the teachers' union. From what I've observed, the only things they seem interested in is bad-mouthing those they disagree with and wasting money on useless crap that I don't want or need. Joining the teachers' union is a moot point because they deduct union dues whether you want their help or not. It's a racket.

I see on a daily basis teachers that have absolutely no business in this profession and when it comes to those teachers, I agree with your sentiments 100%. But the reality is is that those teachers comprise about 5 of the 30 or so teachers on our staff. That means that around 25 of them do an average to excellent job. Those 5, however, are the ones we often hear about. My whole point is that it'd be nice to once in a while hear about the ones who don't suck.

On the funding issue, it's not that we don't have any but the funding we get rarely makes it to the students. And now, thanks to this new legislation called No Child Left Behind, even less of it will make it to the students.

As far as vouchers go, comparing private Catholic schools to public schools does not pan out on closer inspection. A private school enrolls students at their wish. Private schools continually uninvite poor-performing students in order to keep their scores elevated. Public schools do not have that option. Charter schools, which receive many students under the voucher program, are unregulated and are not held to the same standards as public schools. Many in Ohio are now under investigation for test-fraud, financial fraud (inflating enrollment numbers to receive more No Child Left Behind funding), and hiring teachers and administrators without conducting criminal background checks. Many students who attended charter schools are returning to public schools within the year due to the conditions in the charter schools.

I'm done whining now. And btw, you win. I've got no clue as to what you do. I apologize for the assumption.

Maybe we could have these posts moved to their own thread so as not to interfere with this one anymore?

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses