irseg

Christians should support slavery reparations. After all, that's the religion that says we all evil because some guy ate an apple a few thousand years ago. They don't seem to have a problem with the idea that sins are magically passed genetically somehow.

EDIT: that sounds an awful lot like a troll, but I am seriously interested in how a Christian who is anti-reparations can reconcile these two things.

Darkblack

Why should I move? Your troll post doesn't even make since.


I bet you don't make it far past rookie status.

Darkblack

Well, by this logic, I never voted for Bush, I attended anti-war rallies and was against going into Iraq. I don't want to pay for this 87 billion dollar "remodeling" contract. Thanks!


This thread wasn't about affirmative action but I will let you know why it is needed. See in your high school you had good teachers and enough money to pay for supplies, air conditioning, field trips, etc. A lot of black people live in inner city area's where they get none of that. So to help young black people move up and out of the ghetto we let them get into college with a bit lower scores because they didn't get the education you did. They qualify for scholar ships because they do not have the money to go to school. Should only the rich be allowed to get higher education? I bet you could have gotten some scholar ships also if you looked into it. I wrote about 7 essays and got 8k towards my education. I put in a lot of work to get help. I don't think this is unfair.

Also, if they are there for a "free ride" they will flunk out. Stop being a hater. At least they are getting an education. I don't consider busting your ass to get a college education a "free ride"


My point is you had parents that could help you get a start. That was my only point.

Conclamo Ludus

It would probably be even worse if all the people who were involved in the war on either side, were long dead. And you had to foot the bill.

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I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold.
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Apex Shok

If you want to give back what was taken and make reparations please leave. This land was the Indians before it was ever the white mans.

my post was not ment as a troll. It was mearly thrown out to show you how silly reparations really are. You can't make things rightinthe world. All you can do is move on. I don't have any ill will against you or your ancestors for taking my great grandfathers land. I don't expect to be compensated for this. I really don't hold any ill will against you for wiping out whole tribes.

Reparations are silly and should not be done. Besides I got Casinos

The_Dude

wait a second...this is as much his country as it is yours. you have no right to demand that he move since he has different views than you. trust me, this country is not homogenous.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

Apex Shok

Maybe you missed it. I did not come here from someplace else. If he wants to make reparations to me. He should move. His ancestors took my ancestors lands. His ancestors forced mine to relocate. Killing thousands along the way. My ancestors got left on indian reservations with food thay had no idea how plant on land that was unworkable. Where are my reparations?

It really does not bother me. I am more playing Devils advocate here. What does bother me is the fact that reparations are being demanded for one group and not another. I would venture to say that the Indians got screwed worse. The only reason I picked the Indians is the fact that I am one. (Indian by blood. Caucasian by upbringing. But thats another thread. One which I hope to post soon.)

But like I said earlier. At least we have casinos

Darkblack

I agree. If the government would give this land back to the Natives I would leave with smiles on my face.

Mael

actually, that's the thing, there do seem to be people who are intelligent who really think that it should be and is realistic. i brought this up because of two articles i read recently. one of them was about a black lady who is being prosecuted for tax fraud because her father misfiled her taxes, leading to a $500,000 return. And she spent it in a week or two. Appearantly, there were a lot of people who claimed reperations on their taxes, but most were caught in the processing. There had been a rumor going around that the govt. was giving them, and i guess some beleived it, but the father said they were owed it. anyways, the article was on yahoo news 4 or 5 days ago, i think, so if you want to look for it. the other article wasn't all that special, just that some lady wanted them and had a meeting about it.

well, AA actually has nothing to do with reperations. it happens to be something that i have a big problem with, but that's for another thread.

how do you know that powell or rice didnt' have lower scores than the rest of their entering class at college? while it may be that they were at the top of their class, we don't know. for all we know, the black kid sitting across the library from you did get in with lower scores. but because of AA, blacks aren't held to the same standards as whites (and indians, dots, not feathers,). so when i'm in a group working on a class project, is the black kid in it really up to the universities standards, or is he not and am i gonna worry that he may be a weak link the group?


so then your point is that blacks should get an adavantage, an educational handout, because of their parents are don't know how to parent and are lacking the basic social responsibilities of a parent?

i have no problem with people, any people, getting scholorships. if they're earned. i have a problem with race being a qualification for getting one. if i started a scholorship for whites only, people would throw a shit-fit. but no one has a problem with black only scholorships. i would support economically based awards though. cause a poor black kid in the 'hood isn't any worse off than a poor white kid there.

also, i have to disagree with your thoughts on why AA is needed. giving people a boost because they came from a poor urban school. last time i checked, you don't need a computer in the classroom to learn. i didn't have one at my highschool, and i went to an uppermiddleclass white highschool in the third richest county in the US. you don't need calculators, or new books to learn either. a ten year old math book is just as good as a brand new one as long as it is in decent physical shape. throwing money at schools hasn't helped, because money isn't the problem. also, i don't think that the teachers in the poor urban school are any worse than those in other schools, at least in general. the problem in urban schools seems to stem more from a lack of desire to learn on the part of the students, and those who do wish to learn can't because of their peers. one of my friends works in an inner city school in detroit, another in baltimore (and she student taught in harlem). both of them have told me that the students don't really want to learn or be there, because they could be out making a shit load of money selling drugs, or doing something that they consider more worthwhile. and the parents don't care. there are students that do, but as a whole, they're rare.


and that is why me and my wallet hate you.

The_Dude

At the age of 19 Condolezza Rice graduated from college magna cum laude. I dont think she graduated cuz of AA.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

Apex Shok

But whats done is done. We can't really change this. All we can do is move forward in a positve light.

Reparations, to me, are just digging up the past. And there is alot in the this nations past that should just remain buried. We did it we learned from it and we have moved on.

Peace.

Apex Shok

Double post. Sorry. I just get so excited sometimes.

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Generic Suburban Dad

2wolves

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/

The piece from yesterday......

2Wolves

irseg

Nobody can explain this?

Seems to me that if you believe in original sin, you follow the idea that sins are passed genetically somehow.

In that case, if you oppose slavery reparations, you're either blatantly contradicting yourself, or you don't believe enslaving other human beings is a sin worthy of being reconciled by the descendants of slave owners.

onetime2

Sorry irseg, but monetary compensation is not a part of original sin.

Mojo_PeiPei

Isreg, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

*Thank you Billy Madison*

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Sparhawk

/insert seretogis' troll gif here...

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

debaser

I think we should pay anyone who was slave a minimum of 100 million dollars. Slave owners should be taxed heavily to support such costs. Buy your cotton shirts now...

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Food Eater Lad

I am going to assume that no one read my post on the first page.

debaser

I read it. Agree 100%.

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Jasmar

Sorry wasn't trying to be overly harsh but this was meant for the attention crazy ones like sharpton. The slaves deserved
reparations. Not their ancestors over 140 years later

Killconey

Exactly. A lot of people forget that African Americans, Native Americans and other minority groups are not special ed children for us to pity. They are just as intelligent and capable as we white folks are and I don't really see why handouts are necessary in these areas. Slavery is over, our conquest of America is over, so why don't we judge people by their merits now rather than by their ancestors?

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Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

Killconey

As a sidenote:

Darkblack, I respect your views that I have read on various threads and forums but isn't it a bit ridiculous to proclaim such bold statements about our personal lives? While Apex got started on the wrong foot, his other posts have been very well thought out and even you have agreed with him. And have you even been to my high school, let alone analyzed the way it was funded? Please keep your posts focused on things that you could possibly know.

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Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

billege

I'd like to preface my comments with this:

As expected, we have refrained from mass flaming thus far. Good for us. Especially with such a touchy subject.
I have also been reminded how few people really know anything about this country's history.


Blacks deserve reparations. That doesn't mean they are a good idea.

I've written volumes on why I feel this in v3.0, and I'm afraid I'm not retyping them all.

To sum:

Blacks continue to suffer an inequality today because of the damage done during slavery.

Reparations could, but ultimately would not, eliminate the gap created by inherited wealth. (the term "inherited wealth" means far more than inheriting money)

This country is FAR from admitting what it did during slavery. In fact, very few people have any notion of what slavery was. As time passes the brutality has faded. The schoolbooks tell of kindly slave owners who sometimes had to discipline their loyal, but ignorant, pets. The common memory only has a vague, Disney-fied idea of slavery. Thus, reparations would not be understood, welcomed, or supported. Race relations would reach new heights of violence if such an idea were shoved down onto a populace that did not wholly support it.

If the vast majority understood why reparations are deserved, there would truly be no need. Why? I believe if so many were that enlightened, then human society, even the human spirit, would have been raised to heights heretofore unreached.

The civil war was not fought to free the slaves. Slaves and freedom were politically expedient rallying points.

Don't ever believe the fairy tale you were told in school.

Power was the reason for the civil war. The north was gaining it, and the south didn't want to lose it.


There is still a huge rift between black America, and the rest of America. Reparations may be deserved, but they'd do nothing to narrow that gap.

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I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

Mojo_PeiPei

I agree go us!

Why do non-slaves deserve something from non-slave owners?

To sum:

So compensation with money is the answer? Get serious, what would they do to better themselves with money? I guarentee alot of that money would go towards the purchase of $100 Fubu Platinum shirts and some 20"s.

No offense, but what world do you live in? A Disney-fied idea of slavery? Are you serious? I don't think anyone, unless they are complete morons and moral bankrupt have a hard time grasping the evil that was slavery.


What baffles me is how anyone who is for reparations can put a price tag on something so horrible and wrong. Even if blacks are still lessers in society, does some check make it all better?

The only way I could ever get on board is if they were programs that would empower the black community. But seeing as to they already have Affirmative Action I dunno how that would work. No way you could justify taxing white Americans of today (which would be the method of payment) for something that happened 140 years ago.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

billege

I think it's more about our country trying to atone for what it did to the descendants of those wronged. It's America that did this repulsive thing. America belongs to us, and it's past belongs to us also.


I said "Reparations could, but ultimately would not..." So, I think I've already stated I do not think compensation with money is the answer. I reiterated that at the end of my post with this, "Reparations may be deserved, but they'd do nothing..."

In my mind, it's more the sincere attempt at some kind of reparation, and an apology, that must be made. So far America has never said, "look, we messed up. Bad. We're sorry." In and of itself, that would be significant.

While we're here, if there were to be cash payments made, it would be none of anyone's damn business what the money was spent on. I'd be very upset if someone told me, "hey, billege! Why are you buying that new video card? You should be bettering yourself." Who would decide when I'm bettered?

On a more personal level, and I sincerely mean no offense to you, you may want to rethink some things. You mention Fubu shirts and 20" rims with such a (white) disdain and dismissal, that I wonder; who are you to judge what black, or other, cultures choose to purchase?


In the American mind, the Nazi acts on the Jewish people are pretty much the blackest thing brought up when discussing what's the worst thing ever done by a nation, to a race.

Slavery affected more people, over a much longer period of time, and was just as deliberate and disgusting as the Holocaust.

Not to try and compare which was worse, that's impossible and irrational. But, I'm trying to point out that slavery is the moral equivalent.

However, few Americans put slavery in the same category as the Holocaust. But it was. In slavery, our country was every bit as bad as we feel the Nazis were.




As for the dollar amount, I agree with you. Attempting to put a price on slavery is ludicrous. It cannot be done.

Slavery cannot be erased, fixed, or made up for.

It can be acknowledged, owned, and then dealt with.




*edit*
I'd like to add this thought:

The question asked in this poll is "do you think black people deserve reperations for their ancestors being slaves?"

I answered that question meaning, "yes, reperations are deserved."

That is a different response than "yes, reperations should be made."

I think the vast majority of responders to this post are misinterpeting the original question as this:
"Do you thing black people should be given cash money as reperations for slavery."

I went on to explain why I feel they are deserved, but are not a workable idea.
Many posters are only discussing why payments should, or should not be made.
Few are discussing if they are deserved.

It's a subtle difference, but it is important.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

irseg

Although Asians weren't out-and-out slaves, they weren't much better off. And this lasted until at least the 1920s.

Yet they do better than whites on average in tests and make more money too.

So, what gives? Could it be that success is related more closely to morality and hard work (both generally quite prevalent in Asian culture, not as much among blacks) rather than how one's ancestors lived 150 years ago?

Naaaahh, that would actually make sense.

irseg

I did not own any slaves. Therefore, I don't have to apologize for a damn thing. America is a group of individuals who for the most part share in common the idea of a free country. It's not some kind of greater entity that we're all little parts of. It doesn't have its own consciousness, so it can't say "I'm sorry".

If reparations were made in cash, YES IT WOULD be my business to say how they spend it because IT'S MY FUCKING STOLEN MONEY. Furthermore the idea of reparations is to bring blacks up to the level of everyone else (which will NEVER EVER EVER happen if we just let them live off free handouts--that's why they're worse off!!) it's not going to happen through chrome rims and expensive clothing. If it went to helping them start a business or go to college, that would be beneficial.

fishin

I'm curious what effect would giving thousands of dollars (or even tens of thousands of dollars) to every African American would solve. Would this mean that people like Jesse Jackson would finally shut up? Or would they then demand that we make all African Americans have prominent positions in society? Where would it end? The African American community needs a new leader like MLK. Someone who recognizes the need for change in the non-African American community and in the African American community itself. You can only get so far by blaming "the man." Jesse Jackson and his kind only serve to propel the African American community into a greater sense of "victimhood."

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