Perspective of a female Iraqi - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Nizzle · 08-23-2003, 09:23 AM

This is taken from the blog of an Iraqi, female college student in Baghdad. It's a good read, and puts a real perspective on the lives we have impacted over there, instead of the faceless flag-waving Iraqis the media lapdogs have arranged before the camera.

Sounds like all we managed to liberate are the hard-core Muslim fundamentalists, while disrupting the lives of those who were already embracing the Western values we claim to be bringing to the region.

link

Quote:

Baghdad Burning
_
We've Only Just Begun...
Females can no longer leave their homes alone. Each time I go out, E. and either a father, uncle or cousin has to accompany me. It feels like we’ve gone back 50 years ever since the beginning of the occupation. A woman, or girl, out alone, risks anything from insults to abduction. An outing has to be arranged at least an hour beforehand. I state that I need to buy something or have to visit someone. Two males have to be procured (preferably large) and 'safety arrangements' must be made in this total state of lawlessness. And always the question: "But do you have to go out and buy it? Can't I get it for you?" No you can't, because the kilo of eggplant I absolutely have to select with my own hands is just an excuse to see the light of day and walk down a street. The situation is incredibly frustrating to females who work or go to college.

Before the war, around 50% of the college students were females, and over 50% of the working force was composed of women. Not so anymore. We are seeing an increase of fundamentalism in Iraq which is terrifying.

For example, before the war, I would estimate (roughly) that about 55% of females in Baghdad wore a hijab- or headscarf. Hijabs do not signify fundamentalism. That is far from the case- although I, myself, don’t wear one, I have family and friends who do. The point is that, before, it didn’t really matter. It was *my* business whether I wore one or not- not the business of some fundamentalist on the street.

For those who don’t know (and I have discovered they are many more than I thought), a hijab only covers the hair and neck. The whole face shows and some women even wear it Grace Kelley style with a few locks of hair coming out of the front. A ‘burqa’ on the other hand, like the ones worn in Afghanistan, covers the whole head- hair, face and all.

I am female and Muslim. Before the occupation, I more or less dressed the way I wanted to. I lived in jeans and cotton pants and comfortable shirts. Now, I don’t dare leave the house in pants. A long skirt and loose shirt (preferably with long sleeves) has become necessary. A girl wearing jeans risks being attacked, abducted or insulted by fundamentalists who have been… liberated!

Fathers and mothers are keeping their daughters stashed safe at home. That’s why you see so few females in the streets (especially after 4 pm). Others are making their daughters, wives and sisters wear a hijab. Not to oppress them, but to protect them.

I lost my job for a similar reason. I’ll explain the whole depressing affair in another post. Girls are being made to quit college and school. My 14-year-old cousin (a straight-A student) is going to have to repeat the year because her parents decided to keep her home ever since the occupation. Why? Because the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq overtook an office next to her school and opened up a special ‘bureau’.

Men in black turbans (M.I.B.T.s as opposed to M.I.B.s) and dubious, shady figures dressed in black, head to foot, stand around the gates of the bureau in clusters, scanning the girls and teachers entering the secondary school. The dark, frowning figures stand ogling, leering and sometimes jeering at the ones not wearing a hijab or whose skirts aren’t long enough. In some areas, girls risk being attacked with acid if their clothes aren’t ‘proper’.

The Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI- but I prefer ‘SCAREY’) was established in 1982 in Tehran. Its main goal is to import the concept of the “Islamic Revolution” from Iran to Iraq. In other words, they believe that Iraq should be a theocracy led by Shi’a Mullahs. Abdul Aziz Al-Hakim, the deputy leader of SCIRI, is a part of the nine-member rotating presidency and will soon have a go at ruling Iraq.

The SCIRI would like to give the impression that they have the full support of all Shi’a Muslims in Iraq. The truth is that many Shi’a Muslims are terrified of them and of the consequences of having them as a ruling power. Al-Hakim was responsible for torturing and executing Iraqi POWs in Iran all through the Iran-Iraq war and after. Should SCIRI govern Iraq, I imagine the first step would be to open the borders with Iran and unite the two countries. Bush can then stop referring to the two countries as a part of his infamous ‘Axis of Evil’ and can just begin calling us the ‘Big Lump of Evil and Bad North Korea’ (which seems more in accord with his limited linguistic abilities).

Ever since entering Iraq, Al-Hakim has been blackmailing the CPA in Baghdad with his ‘major Shi’a following’. He entered Iraq escorted by ‘Jaysh Badir’ or ‘Badir’s Army’. This ‘army’ is composed of thousands of Iraqi extremists led by Iranian extremists and trained in Iran. All through the war, they were lurking on the border, waiting for a chance to slip inside. In Baghdad, and the south, they have been a source of terror and anxiety to Sunnis, Shi’a and Christians alike. They, and some of their followers, were responsible for a large portion of the looting and the burning (you’d think they were going to get reconstruction contracts…). They were also responsible for hundreds of religious and political abductions and assassinations.

The whole situation is alarming beyond any description I can give. Christians have become the victims of extremism also. Some of them are being threatened, others are being attacked. A few wannabe Mullahs came out with a ‘fatwa’, or decree, in June that declared all females should wear the hijab and if they didn’t, they could be subject to ‘punishment’. Another group claiming to be a part of the ‘Hawza Al Ilmia’ decreed that not a single girl over the age of 14 could remain unmarried- even if it meant that some members of the Hawza would have to have two, three or four wives. This decree included females of other religions. In the south, female UN and Red Cross aides received death threats if they didn’t wear the hijab. This isn’t done in the name of God- it’s done in the name of power. It tells people- the world- that “Look- we have power, we have influence.”

Liquor stores are being attacked and bombed. The owner usually gets a ‘threat’ in the form of a fatwa claiming that if they didn’t shut down the store permanently, there would be consequences. The consequences are usually either a fire, or a bomb. Similar threats have been made to hair-dressers in some areas in Baghdad. It’s frightening and appalling, but true.

Don’t blame it on Islam. Every religion has its extremists. In times of chaos and disorder, those extremists flourish. Iraq is full of moderate Muslims who simply believe in ‘live and let live’. We get along with each other- Sunnis and Shi’a, Muslims and Christians and Jews and Sabi’a. We intermarry, we mix and mingle, we live. We build our churches and mosques in the same areas, our children go to the same schools… it was never an issue.

Someone asked me if, through elections, the Iraqi people might vote for an Islamic state. Six months ago, I would have firmly said, “No.” Now, I’m not so sure. There’s been an overwhelming return to fundamentalism. People are turning to religion for several reasons.

The first and most prominent reason is fear. Fear of war, fear of death and fear of a fate worse than death (and yes, there are fates worse than death). If I didn’t have something to believe in during this past war, I know I would have lost my mind. If there hadn’t been a God to pray to, to make promises to, to bargain with, to thank- I wouldn’t have made it through.

Encroaching western values and beliefs have also played a prominent role in pushing Iraqis to embrace Islam. Just as there are ignorant people in the Western world (and there are plenty- I have the emails to prove it… don’t make me embarrass you), there are ignorant people in the Middle East. In Muslims and Arabs, Westerners see suicide bombers, terrorists, ignorance and camels. In Americans, Brits, etc. some Iraqis see depravity, prostitution, ignorance, domination, junkies and ruthlessness. The best way people can find to protect themselves, and their loved ones, against this assumed threat is religion.

Finally, you have more direct reasons. 65% of all Iraqis are currently unemployed for one reason or another. There are people who have families to feed. When I say ‘families’ I don’t mean a wife and 2 kids… I mean around 16 or 17 people. Islamic parties supported by Iran, like Al-Daawa and SCIRI, are currently recruiting followers by offering ‘wages’ to jobless men (an ex-soldier in the army, for example) in trade of ‘support’. This support could mean anything- vote when the elections come around, bomb a specific shop, ‘confiscate’, abduct, hijack cars (only if you work for Al-Chalabi…).

So concerning the anxiety over terror and fundamentalism- I would like to quote the Carpenters- worry? “We’ve only just begun… we’ve only just begun…”

JumpinJesus · 08-23-2003, 09:47 AM

While this sounds like a fairly knowledgeable person, I doubt the claim that this is an Iraqi woman. I don't know, something just doesn't spell Iraqi here to me. I mean, quoting the Carpenters?

Nizzle · 08-23-2003, 10:09 AM

They aren't all ignorant, Camel-riding nomads.

I've spent some time reading the other entries. It could be well-written fiction, but that is not the impression I get.

Dragonlich · 08-23-2003, 11:04 AM

So we disrupted the lives of the people who loved the West... at least they're not being tortured or executed by their Iraqi leaders.

I'd say it's time to put things in perspective....

On the one hand we have Saddam and his regime, where people were tortured and executed for pretty much anything, and where women were routinely raped in front of their husbands "as punishment", and where Udai, son of the dictator, would pick up random women in order to rape and torture them...

And on the other hand we have the *temporary* problem of (un)security, where women (*and men*) have to go out in groups, to prevent being mugged/raped/killed by the very criminals Saddam let out of the jails, and some Saddam-lovers that are hell-bend on causing chaos...

Hmm... You know, perhaps islamic fundamentalism might be a good thing for the Iraqis for a change - at least they'll be able to rid themselves of their criminals. They'll grow up in a few decades, just as Iran is growing up. I'm not saying it's a perfect solution, but it beats having permanent chaos. I'd prefer a stable democratic government, but I don't see that happening anytime soon, thanks (in part) to foreign influences, and disruptive elements.

HarmlessRabbit · 08-23-2003, 12:19 PM

Quote:

And on the other hand we have the *temporary* problem of (un)security, where women (*and men*) have to go out in groups, to prevent being mugged/raped/killed by the very criminals Saddam let out of the jails, and some Saddam-lovers that are hell-bend on causing chaos...

Dragonlich, did you even read the post at all? The women aren't being attacked by criminals released from prison, they are being attacked by religious fundamentalists from the "Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution".

Nowhere in the article does it even mention the "criminals Saddam let out of the jails."

Quote:

I'd prefer a stable democratic government, but I don't see that happening anytime soon, thanks (in part) to foreign influences

Truer words were never spoken.

Hey, didn't the USA invade to give the Iraqis "freedom"????

TaLoN · 08-23-2003, 12:42 PM

beggars can't be choosers. it isn't our fault that her fellow citizens are retarded

HarmlessRabbit · 08-23-2003, 12:46 PM

Quote:

it isn't our fault that her fellow citizens are retarded

Actually, it's completely the USA's fault that the fundamentalists are taking over the country. That's the whole point of the article.

TaLoN · 08-23-2003, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Actually, it's completely the USA's fault that the fundamentalists are taking over the country. That's the whole point of the article.

i guess i must put this in simpler terms. yes it may be our fault for allowing her fellow citizens to act on their own free will, but it is not our fault that their views are totally backwards

HarmlessRabbit · 08-23-2003, 12:55 PM

Quote:

it isn't our fault that her fellow citizens are retarded

Actually, it's completely the USA's fault that the fundamentalists are growing in power. That's the whole point of the article.

TaLoN · 08-23-2003, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Actually, it's completely the USA's fault that the fundamentalists are growing in power. That's the whole point of the article.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh do you not understand english!!!!!! i already said that it is the USA's fault for giving them power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THEN I SAID THAT IT IS NOT OUR FAULT THAT THOSE PEOPLE IN POWER ARE FUCKING RETARDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

geeze

Nizzle · 08-23-2003, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TaLoN
<snip inanities>THEN I SAID THAT IT IS NOT OUR FAULT THAT THOSE PEOPLE IN POWER ARE FUCKING RETARDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is a logical fallacy. Had we not gone in with guns blazing and no idea what to do afterwards, they would not be growing in power. Pretty simple causal relationship. The fact that there were loonies there to begin with is meaningless. There are loonies here too. So what?

seretogis · 08-23-2003, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TaLoN
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh do you not understand english!!!!!! i already said that it is the USA's fault for giving them power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THEN I SAID THAT IT IS NOT OUR FAULT THAT THOSE PEOPLE IN POWER ARE FUCKING RETARDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

geeze

For the love of kittens, we are experiencing a global exclamation point shortage. Please do your part to curb excessive use of exclamation points so that those who are more needy will be able to use them.

Zeld2.0 · 08-23-2003, 02:31 PM

Talon - ignorance makes the world go round

Sure they're 'fuckin retards'

Personally i'd suggest you look in your own backyard for Americans aren't very smart as well

We just happen to be on the better side of the barrel (in terms of being well off in the world) - that doens't make us smarter than them.

Then again you wouldn't know right?

Great lets call everyone fucking retards because we are better than you (when our own people are pretty damn stupid in the world)

So they believe in something differnet from ours and they are fuckin retards... who is the judge of whose right and wrong? Right, we're the righteous ones becuase we say we are and because we subjugate others to believe we are - then again we might as well be brainwashed into the system

onetime2 · 08-23-2003, 02:41 PM

Sounds like a fake blog to me. But if it isn't you also have to remember this is ONE person's perspective. And come on, did anyone really think lives wouldn't be totally disrupted during a WAR!?!? People having to repeat a year of school? Get real it's a complete change in political structure! Perspective is surely lacking in this blog if it's real. No mention of the bad things that went on during Saddam's reign. I'm also curious to know what party her family was in during the time of Saddam? Certainly there were vastly different lives depending on who your family was.

Zeld2.0 · 08-23-2003, 02:55 PM

I don't think its real but onetime2 - i think you're just trying to make it seem to fake yourself.

The fact is, people will have the same perspective as her as will others.

Was saddam a bad guy? No doubt about it.

But people are overplaying his actions every goddamn day. He's now worse than Hitler.

The fact is, most people didn't know what he did except those who were immediately affected. It was true with Hitler - they knew something was up but didn't know what it was exactly.

Hell concentration camps occured within miles of German towns and people didn't have a clue.

Want to know a story? After the U.S. took a concentration camp, they told the citizens nearby to tour it. The bodies were stacked up or dug out of ditches. Naked, shriveled, skeletal corpses everywhere.

Half the citizens threw up, most went through crying, disgusted. The mayor and his wife commited suicide.

They hadn't a clue what had happened.

Now put that into Iraq - unless you were directly affected, you could live a normal life. Iraq *was* the most Western of the nations in the Middle East - in fact, that is why the U.S. supported Saddam in his actions in the 80's. I bet you many special forces agents were in Iraq in the 80's supporting the Iraq military against Iran, selling weapons, and helping the police force crack down on extremists.

Don't twist your views and claim they were in the Baath party or what not. If she is real, then she took advantage of being able to be like what most Western women can be.

Nizzle · 08-23-2003, 03:57 PM

I don't see any evidence that this is a fake blog. I sense the major source of suspicion here stems from a shallow view of what Iraq is; likely garnered from disjointed Fox News editorials and other politically skewed media sources. They were not groveling peasants all waiting around to be liberated.

That said, it could be a work of carefully crafted fiction. It's impossible to verify. But I question the basis under which the forum here is questioning it. Does the existence of an intelligent female Muslim -- who displays a clear influence of Western culture -- not fit in with your idea of what Iraq is really like? If that is the case, I question your authority on this subject before I question the validity of this blog. I have yet to see anyone here claim authority, or any first-hand knowledge, on pre-invasion Iraqi culture.

And please consider that if someone were to go through the trouble of faking this, they would leave out stuff like Carpenter's quotes and other examples of Western influence (the phrase "God damn" comes to mind) precisely so that it would appear more authentic.

I feel that trying to discredit the blog as fiction is a weak attempt at invalidating the disturbing implications.

JumpinJesus · 08-23-2003, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nizzle
...

I feel that trying to discredit the blog as fiction is a weak attempt at invalidating the disturbing implications.

I don't doubt the situations that are described in the blog at all. I do doubt that it was written by an Iraqi woman for a couple of reasons. First off, my doubt stems from her grasp of English and its usages. English is an exceedingly difficult language to learn, much less master. Her writing style is indicative of a native English speaker. Secondly, I'm suspect of that kind of western influence in Iraq. I've never been there so I can't say this with any authority, but suspicion tells me that as much as Hussein micromanaged his country with a fervent hatred of all things American, I'm fairly certain he managed to keep western music out. Her use of the acronym MIBT, referencing our own black helicopter MIBs seems suspect as well. Am I to believe that their common usage of the acronym MIBT just coincidentally coincides with the Arabic translation of Men In Black Turbans?

The reason I am angry over fiction like this is because it gives convenient ammunition to those opposed to her viewpoint. I believe this is someone with strong feelings against the U.S. presence in Iraq and is fabricating a blog to lend her beliefs credence. However, if it is proved to be false, then this blog will only serve to do harm to this particular cause.

I'm not saying I have it on authority that this blog is false. What I am saying is that I doubt it is authentic. I could very well be wrong.

HarmlessRabbit · 08-23-2003, 05:11 PM

You'll have to make your own decision, but Raed, an Iraqi blogger who is CONFIRMED to be in Iraq, has linked to this blog and apparently has no doubts.

http://dearraed.blogspot.com/

Raed has many of the same opinions, I guess the "it's not real" defense is crumbling pretty quickly.

I find it funny that people on this board believe that NO FOREIGNER COULD EVER LEARN TO WRITE ENGLISH THAT WELL. It seems like the general impression is that all Iraqis are illiterate fools who spent all day watching their wives get raped by Saddam's sons when they weren't being fed into plastic shredders.

onetime2 · 08-23-2003, 05:20 PM

Zeld,

I am not trying to fool myself in the least. I said it sounds fake. I base this on the use of slang, the western writing style, and the countless numbers of fake blogs on the web. I made comments as if it were real and those comments stand. If you don't think the author's perspective is important then we have nothing further to discuss. A Baathist's in good standing during Saddam's rule would certainly have a far different life than say a Kurd in the same city. But hey, if you choose to believe this is the real thing and not question the source, more power to you.

Nizzle,

I see no evidence that the blog is real either. I have no doubt that there are a substantial number of intelligent Iraqi women, your assumption on this matter is wrong.

As far as the disturbing implications of the thread, what? That there is a lack of security? That there are clerics seizing power? That people are unemployed and that lives are interrupted? Sorry but I got that even from the horrible slant of Fox news. It was a war. Anyone who thought there wouldn't be upheaval in the aftermath had seriously distorted ideas of how this would work.

In the end even if this is a real blog, this is ONE person's perspective.

onetime2 · 08-23-2003, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
You'll have to make your own decision, but Raed, an Iraqi blogger who is CONFIRMED to be in Iraq, has linked to this blog and apparently has no doubts.

http://dearraed.blogspot.com/

Raed has many of the same opinions, I guess the "it's not real" defense is crumbling pretty quickly.

I find it funny that people on this board believe that NO FOREIGNER COULD EVER LEARN TO WRITE ENGLISH THAT WELL. It seems like the general impression is that all Iraqis are illiterate fools who spent all day watching their wives get raped by Saddam's sons when they weren't being fed into plastic shredders.

Oh please, it has nothing to do with the thinking that no Iraqi could write english that well. It has more to do with the proliferation of fake blogs on the internet. I guess I must have missed where everyone claimed all Iraqis are illiterate fools. I guess I'm not quite as gifted at reading between imaginary lines.

HarmlessRabbit · 08-23-2003, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Oh please, it has nothing to do with the thinking that no Iraqi could write english that well.

Actually, that is exactly what JumpinJesus said, and I was responding to his post directly above mine where he said:

<b>English is an exceedingly difficult language to learn, much less master. Her writing style is indicative of a native English speaker.</b>

You don't appear to read english that well. Maybe you're actually an Iraqi, onetime2.

Zeld2.0 · 08-23-2003, 05:39 PM

English isn't 'easy' but it has become the main language used around the world for business and international affairs a lot of the time and so i don't think its that much of a matter as everyone likes to point out - and uh, honestly, if you know english (well im gonna go with my own experience and say that most college students around the world know some) and have the internet, then slang and what not is actually pretty common to see.

That being said, who knows if its real or not (nor did i ever claim that i was saying it was real w/o a source onetime2, but hey thats what you said

)

Dragonlich · 08-24-2003, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Truer words were never spoken. Hey, didn't the USA invade to give the Iraqis "freedom"????

Hey, weren't women routinely raped during Saddam's rule? Wasn't HE the evil bastard that tortured and/or murdered anyone that would oppose him?

The US created this mess, sure. But at least the US got rid of a murderous bastard by doing that.

It *seems* like you prefer security over freedom. Well, Hitler's Germany was secure, Stalin's Russia was secure, and Saddam's Iraq was secure too. Most people could walk around without too much trouble, as long as they were weren't suspected of anything.

I firmly believe that this problem of security will be temporary. If the US helps the Iraqi people create a stable country, this whole mess will be a thing of the past. If the US leaves before that happens, all hell will break loose; after this, there will be stability again, perhaps without the freedom Iraqis might otherwise have had.

(and no, this use of "Hitler" was functional. It is not Godwin's law...

)

Zeld2.0 · 08-24-2003, 12:58 AM

Actually what i would like to know is where Saddam is documented as having raped these women?

I seriously think people are tyring to put too much blame upon him - he's an evil bastard, fine, but trying to put every goddamn crime upon him?

Come on, the US supported him just over 15 years ago with weapons and everything because we liked his style.

HarmlessRabbit · 08-24-2003, 12:59 AM

Quote:

The US created this mess, sure. But at least the US got rid of a murderous bastard by doing that.

Woot! we replaced a repressive dictator with a repressive religious extremist group. You know what this sounds like? IRAN!!! Hopefully this will work out just as well!

Quote:

It *seems* like you prefer security over freedom. Well, Hitler's Germany was secure, Stalin's Russia was secure, and Saddam's Iraq was secure too. Most people could walk around without too much trouble, as long as they were weren't suspected of anything.

Were they? History shows us that they were anything but secure over the long run.

I like how you dropped your original point and only responded to part of my message.

seretogis · 08-24-2003, 01:37 AM

A blog is not a source that I would place any trust in.

samcat · 08-24-2003, 02:13 AM

Problem is, the US went in without any real notion of what to do to insure the ultimate outcome would not be to their disadvantage. Was Saddam a risk to the US? Not really. Did Bush need a boogieman to push his agenda forward? Yup!

The world community never bought into the whole rationale behind the war - that is why it was almost universally condemned and opposed.

The BS continues. The folks who are blowing up infrastructure and picking off American soldiers are supposed to be "Saddam loyalists" . Give yer head a shake! Who stands to gain by stirring the pot, preventing a return to normalcy, and killing enough American servicemen that the US public eventually gets disgusted and demands their boys come home? Who ses the UN as a threat to their agenda? Ain't Saddam, baby - he ain't making a comeback. The Bushites are going to invoke Saddam until the US leaves ( likely sooner than later) then throw up their hands when the fundamentalists take over and say " Well who could have known?"

The same thing happened in Iran, the fundamentalists were the best organized group and they moved into the power vacuum left behind by the Shah and coopted the revolution. The TAliban took over Afghanistan after the smoke cleared and the Russians were evicted. There was anarchy and they were the best organized to take advantage of the situation. See any parallels to what is going on now in Afghanistan. See it shaping up in Iraq?

This is an old pattern - the Reds did the same in 1917. If you don't learn your history....

auswegian · 08-24-2003, 02:31 AM

English may not be easy but most people I know who come from the Middle East seem to have a very, very good grasp of it. It simply isn't hard to pick up. The fact that she appears to be a self-proclaimed educated woman speaks volumes. I would think that among the educated population of Iraq, English would be very well spoken. They aren't just a bunch of ignorant ragheads, Iraq was always notable as a Middle Eastern country with a high education rates, especially among women. There's nothing in that blog that I find difficult to believe. Paranoia and denial make it hard for certain people to accept something other than what they are forcefed by the neoconservative propaganda machine ironically called "the liberal media".

Saddam's regime was evil. But a fundamentalist regime would be more evil, for many reasons. And a whole lot worse than Iran. I am perfectly aware that for certain groups (such as the Kurds) life without Saddam is undeniably better. But for many people, and I suspect women and educated people to be most hit, life will suddenly get a whole lot worse. Saying "oh they'll grow up in a few decades" smacks of paternalism and a complete lack of empathy.

But hey, I bet the Bushites will make some sort of agreement with the Islamo-fundies, make sure that American interests aren't threatened, and they can be as repressive as they like. Hey, they let Saudi Arabia get away with it! This will, of course, merely create more 'Islamo-Fascist' terrorists to fly planes in buildings and kill innocent women, but of course that doesn't matter because at least we got rid of Saddam. Yee-haw.

Dragonlich · 08-24-2003, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Woot! we replaced a repressive dictator with a repressive religious extremist group. You know what this sounds like? IRAN!!! Hopefully this will work out just as well!

Excuse me? When exactly did Iraq become a fundy state? Criminals attacking random people because they think their religion tells them to are not exactly an indication of what a country stands for.

Quote:

Were they? History shows us that they were anything but secure over the long run.

My point exactly. Iraq was not secure; anything happening now is *nothing* compared to what it was like under Saddam. This time it'll get better, instead of deteriorating.

Quote:

I like how you dropped your original point and only responded to part of my message.

That is because your response to my original point isn't even worth discussing. Saddam released criminals. We now have criminals that are attacking women because "god told them to". They're still criminals.

(Edit: I'm not saying these guys were the same criminals Saddam released. I'm just saying they're criminals *too*)

JBX · 08-24-2003, 06:47 AM

My question is where are the Iraqi Thomas Jeffersons, George Washingtons, and Ben Franklins. The people that put their Countrys intrests ahead of their own and risk everything for freedom. Are there no people in the Middle East that think like our Founding Fathers and are willing to stand up to Islam?

goobster · 08-24-2003, 07:01 AM

Still would not want to be a female trying to survive in that country.

JumpinJesus · 08-24-2003, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
You'll have to make your own decision, but Raed, an Iraqi blogger who is CONFIRMED to be in Iraq, has linked to this blog and apparently has no doubts.

http://dearraed.blogspot.com/

Raed has many of the same opinions, I guess the "it's not real" defense is crumbling pretty quickly.

Actually, this is a blog from Salam Pax who is wondering where Raed is. It is Salam who has linked to Riverbend's blog. Regardless, linking to a blog is not proof of authenticity. If I link to a blog written by someone claiming to be American, does that prove it's an American author simply because I linked to it?

Quote:

I find it funny that people on this board believe that NO FOREIGNER COULD EVER LEARN TO WRITE ENGLISH THAT WELL. It seems like the general impression is that all Iraqis are illiterate fools who spent all day watching their wives get raped by Saddam's sons when they weren't being fed into plastic shredders.

Okay, let's clear something up. I'm getting the clear indication that I am being accused of claiming that foreigners cannot learn English well. That is quite a leap of assumption to make from my entry. I NEVER claimed that foreigners cannot learn to write English well.

I stated that the usage of language (more specifically, idiomatic language) indicates to me that the writer is a native English speaker. No matter how well one learns to speak English, attaining a hold of American idiomatic phrases is not learned in a classroom or on the internet, it is learned by being immersed in that language, something I don't think happens often in Iraq.

I also claimed that I could be wrong. I said I have my doubts and I still do, but my disbelief is not dogma. I am capable of changing my mind if I see evidence of its authenticity.

I stand by my statement that urban legend-style blogs designed to promote a view (no matter how much I may agree) trivializes and undermines the authentic arguments for that cause. I will never support lies, even if those lies support my own beliefs.

HarmlessRabbit, we actually agree on what's going on over there. But I can't defend and cite something that I don't feel is genuine.

HarmlessRabbit · 08-24-2003, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Excuse me? When exactly did Iraq become a fundy state? Criminals attacking random people because they think their religion tells them to are not exactly an indication of what a country stands for.

My god, are you that unaware of the current state of Iran and how it got there? Of the connections between the former Shah and the CIA? Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, I guess.

Quote:

HarmlessRabbit, we actually agree on what's going on over there. But I can't defend and cite something that I don't feel is genuine.

And that's your right. Personally, I find the blog credible, and I find there are people all over the world with a good grasp of english. I've done a lot of world travel, and in every country I've visited I've found natives who speak and write english better than I do.

HarmlessRabbit · 08-24-2003, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Are there no people in the Middle East that think like our Founding Fathers and are willing to stand up to Islam?

I'm sure you meant "radical Islamics" rather than assuming the entire Islamic community was evil. As the original post said, any freedom-loving people in Iraq right now are being oppressed, abducted, or killed for speaking their mind by radical Islamic fundamentalists. The "leaders" that the US has put in place (both in Iraq and Afghanistan) are puppet businessmen, not charismatic leaders who believe fervently in the cause of their people.

In the gulf war in 1991, the USA let a bunch of Iraqis that they had encouraged to revolt against Saddam get killed and tortured because the USA was afraid of Iraq becoming a religious state. You can understand how people there might be a little afraid to speak up now.

Dragonlich · 08-24-2003, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
My god, are you that unaware of the current state of Iran and how it got there? Of the connections between the former Shah and the CIA? Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, I guess.

No, I am fully aware of Iran and how it got there. I just fail to see the connection between the historical setting after the fall of the Shah, and the current situation in Iraq. It's not like the US government is as ignorant as you seem to think it is.

Just because a loose coalition of Saddam-supporters, criminals, foreign terrorists and narrow-minded fools think they stand to gain anything from the current chaos, doesn't mean they will.

Arc101 · 08-24-2003, 10:06 AM

Quote:

I don't doubt the situations that are described in the blog at all. I do doubt that it was written by an Iraqi woman for a couple of reasons. First off, my doubt stems from her grasp of English and its usages. English is an exceedingly difficult language to learn, much less master. Her writing style is indicative of a native English speaker.

Well I've worked with refugees from Iraq and I can confirm that some of them do have an excellent command of English. This blog may or may not be true, but to discount it because it is well written is both insulting and ignorant.

Zeld2.0 · 08-24-2003, 11:05 AM

The issue is that when there is a power vaccuum, many forces will try to fill it in.

The U.S. obviously wants to instante a gov't friendly to the U.S.

What will the neighbors think though? They are obviously sending their own people to influence the people there.

The irony is that the end will be a result of what the people think (sorta like democracy anyone) - whether the people will want a fundy gov't, a fascist gov't, hell a commie gov't, all comes down to the people there (oh the irony).

But, the problem is, as of now, the U.S. gov't doesn't honestly have a clue what it wants there. It says one thing then later changes its mind. They've switched around people in positions there and shit still happens.

The concern in the end though is how it shapes up. The entire soldier rotation thing is a bit like Vietnam in one way - it hurts morale. Instead of concentrating on the mission (is there even one now? i dunno why but sounds a bit like 'Nam) they concentrate on how many days left before they go home.

Its just a fuckin quagmire there, people say its temporary, but the fact is, as soon as the U.S. pull out the people will be able to change their minds and say "fuck you puppet you're going down" and another gov't comes in.

Iraq used to be very friendly to the west and coup's occured as well. The Mid east has always shown that it cannot be counted upon in terms of consistency - the most constant fact is that the majority are worshipers of islam and that is a factor in how they will react in the future (wehther they embrace democracy or fundamentalist).

One thing to note though is that the majority of Iraq is Shiite which is the same as Iran...

Nizzle · 08-24-2003, 12:44 PM

I spent some time reading the other entries of this blog, and reading the sites that link it (check popdex citations http://www.popdex.com/c/1655601). I emailed the author of this blog politely asking to explain the Western influence evident in her writing. She has posted this reply in her web log. Needless to say, I am satisfied that the author is who she claims to be.

link

Quote:

About Riverbend
A lot of you have been asking about my background and the reason why my English is good. I am Iraqi- born in Iraq to Iraqi parents, but was raised abroad for several years as a child. I came back in my early teens and continued studying in English in Baghdad- reading any book I could get my hands on. Most of my friends are of different ethnicities, religions and nationalities. I am bilingual. There are thousands in Iraq like me- kids of diplomats, students, ex-patriots, etc.

As to my connection with Western culture… you wouldn’t believe how many young Iraqi people know so much about American/British/French pop culture. They know all about Arnold Schwarzenegger, Brad Pitt, Whitney Houston, McDonalds, and M.I.B.s… Iraqi tv stations were constantly showing bad copies of the latest Hollywood movies. (If it’s any consolation, the Marines lived up to the Rambo/ Terminator reputation which preceded them.)

But no matter what- I shall remain anonymous. I wouldn’t feel free to write otherwise. I think Salam and Gee are incredibly brave… who knows, maybe one day I will be too. You know me as Riverbend, you share a very small part of my daily reality- I hope that will suffice.

onetime2 · 08-25-2003, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit

You don't appear to read english that well. Maybe you're actually an Iraqi, onetime2.

LOL, maybe I should start a blog.

08-23-2003, 09:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	While this sounds like a fairly knowledgeable person, I doubt the claim that this is an Iraqi woman. I don't know, something just doesn't spell Iraqi here to me. I mean, quoting the Carpenters? __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

08-23-2003, 10:09 AM	#3 (permalink)
Nizzle God-Hating Liberal Location: Silicon Valley, CA	They aren't all ignorant, Camel-riding nomads. I've spent some time reading the other entries. It could be well-written fiction, but that is not the impression I get. __________________ Nizzle

08-23-2003, 02:31 PM	#13 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Talon - ignorance makes the world go round Sure they're 'fuckin retards' Personally i'd suggest you look in your own backyard for Americans aren't very smart as well We just happen to be on the better side of the barrel (in terms of being well off in the world) - that doens't make us smarter than them. Then again you wouldn't know right? Great lets call everyone fucking retards because we are better than you (when our own people are pretty damn stupid in the world) So they believe in something differnet from ours and they are fuckin retards... who is the judge of whose right and wrong? Right, we're the righteous ones becuase we say we are and because we subjugate others to believe we are - then again we might as well be brainwashed into the system Last edited by Zeld2.0; 08-23-2003 at 02:34 PM..

08-23-2003, 02:41 PM	#14 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	Sounds like a fake blog to me. But if it isn't you also have to remember this is ONE person's perspective. And come on, did anyone really think lives wouldn't be totally disrupted during a WAR!?!? People having to repeat a year of school? Get real it's a complete change in political structure! Perspective is surely lacking in this blog if it's real. No mention of the bad things that went on during Saddam's reign. I'm also curious to know what party her family was in during the time of Saddam? Certainly there were vastly different lives depending on who your family was. __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

08-23-2003, 03:57 PM	#16 (permalink)
Nizzle God-Hating Liberal Location: Silicon Valley, CA	I don't see any evidence that this is a fake blog. I sense the major source of suspicion here stems from a shallow view of what Iraq is; likely garnered from disjointed Fox News editorials and other politically skewed media sources. They were not groveling peasants all waiting around to be liberated. That said, it could be a work of carefully crafted fiction. It's impossible to verify. But I question the basis under which the forum here is questioning it. Does the existence of an intelligent female Muslim -- who displays a clear influence of Western culture -- not fit in with your idea of what Iraq is really like? If that is the case, I question your authority on this subject before I question the validity of this blog. I have yet to see anyone here claim authority, or any first-hand knowledge, on pre-invasion Iraqi culture. And please consider that if someone were to go through the trouble of faking this, they would leave out stuff like Carpenter's quotes and other examples of Western influence (the phrase "God damn" comes to mind) precisely so that it would appear more authentic. I feel that trying to discredit the blog as fiction is a weak attempt at invalidating the disturbing implications. __________________ Nizzle

08-23-2003, 11:04 AM	#4 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	So we disrupted the lives of the people who loved the West... at least they're not being tortured or executed by their Iraqi leaders. I'd say it's time to put things in perspective.... On the one hand we have Saddam and his regime, where people were tortured and executed for pretty much anything, and where women were routinely raped in front of their husbands "as punishment", and where Udai, son of the dictator, would pick up random women in order to rape and torture them... And on the other hand we have the temporary problem of (un)security, where women (and men) have to go out in groups, to prevent being mugged/raped/killed by the very criminals Saddam let out of the jails, and some Saddam-lovers that are hell-bend on causing chaos... Hmm... You know, perhaps islamic fundamentalism might be a good thing for the Iraqis for a change - at least they'll be able to rid themselves of their criminals. They'll grow up in a few decades, just as Iran is growing up. I'm not saying it's a perfect solution, but it beats having permanent chaos. I'd prefer a stable democratic government, but I don't see that happening anytime soon, thanks (in part) to foreign influences, and disruptive elements.

08-23-2003, 12:42 PM	#6 (permalink)
TaLoN Loser Location: MI	beggars can't be choosers. it isn't our fault that her fellow citizens are retarded

08-23-2003, 02:55 PM	#15 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	I don't think its real but onetime2 - i think you're just trying to make it seem to fake yourself. The fact is, people will have the same perspective as her as will others. Was saddam a bad guy? No doubt about it. But people are overplaying his actions every goddamn day. He's now worse than Hitler. The fact is, most people didn't know what he did except those who were immediately affected. It was true with Hitler - they knew something was up but didn't know what it was exactly. Hell concentration camps occured within miles of German towns and people didn't have a clue. Want to know a story? After the U.S. took a concentration camp, they told the citizens nearby to tour it. The bodies were stacked up or dug out of ditches. Naked, shriveled, skeletal corpses everywhere. Half the citizens threw up, most went through crying, disgusted. The mayor and his wife commited suicide. They hadn't a clue what had happened. Now put that into Iraq - unless you were directly affected, you could live a normal life. Iraq was the most Western of the nations in the Middle East - in fact, that is why the U.S. supported Saddam in his actions in the 80's. I bet you many special forces agents were in Iraq in the 80's supporting the Iraq military against Iran, selling weapons, and helping the police force crack down on extremists. Don't twist your views and claim they were in the Baath party or what not. If she is real, then she took advantage of being able to be like what most Western women can be.

08-23-2003, 05:11 PM	#18 (permalink)
HarmlessRabbit Junkie Location: San Jose, CA	You'll have to make your own decision, but Raed, an Iraqi blogger who is CONFIRMED to be in Iraq, has linked to this blog and apparently has no doubts. http://dearraed.blogspot.com/ Raed has many of the same opinions, I guess the "it's not real" defense is crumbling pretty quickly. I find it funny that people on this board believe that NO FOREIGNER COULD EVER LEARN TO WRITE ENGLISH THAT WELL. It seems like the general impression is that all Iraqis are illiterate fools who spent all day watching their wives get raped by Saddam's sons when they weren't being fed into plastic shredders.

08-23-2003, 05:20 PM	#19 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	Zeld, I am not trying to fool myself in the least. I said it sounds fake. I base this on the use of slang, the western writing style, and the countless numbers of fake blogs on the web. I made comments as if it were real and those comments stand. If you don't think the author's perspective is important then we have nothing further to discuss. A Baathist's in good standing during Saddam's rule would certainly have a far different life than say a Kurd in the same city. But hey, if you choose to believe this is the real thing and not question the source, more power to you. Nizzle, I see no evidence that the blog is real either. I have no doubt that there are a substantial number of intelligent Iraqi women, your assumption on this matter is wrong. As far as the disturbing implications of the thread, what? That there is a lack of security? That there are clerics seizing power? That people are unemployed and that lives are interrupted? Sorry but I got that even from the horrible slant of Fox news. It was a war. Anyone who thought there wouldn't be upheaval in the aftermath had seriously distorted ideas of how this would work. In the end even if this is a real blog, this is ONE person's perspective. __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

08-23-2003, 05:39 PM	#22 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	English isn't 'easy' but it has become the main language used around the world for business and international affairs a lot of the time and so i don't think its that much of a matter as everyone likes to point out - and uh, honestly, if you know english (well im gonna go with my own experience and say that most college students around the world know some) and have the internet, then slang and what not is actually pretty common to see. That being said, who knows if its real or not (nor did i ever claim that i was saying it was real w/o a source onetime2, but hey thats what you said )

08-24-2003, 12:58 AM	#24 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Actually what i would like to know is where Saddam is documented as having raped these women? I seriously think people are tyring to put too much blame upon him - he's an evil bastard, fine, but trying to put every goddamn crime upon him? Come on, the US supported him just over 15 years ago with weapons and everything because we liked his style.

08-24-2003, 01:37 AM	#26 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	A blog is not a source that I would place any trust in. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

08-24-2003, 02:13 AM	#27 (permalink)
samcat Upright Location: Calgary	Problem is, the US went in without any real notion of what to do to insure the ultimate outcome would not be to their disadvantage. Was Saddam a risk to the US? Not really. Did Bush need a boogieman to push his agenda forward? Yup! The world community never bought into the whole rationale behind the war - that is why it was almost universally condemned and opposed. The BS continues. The folks who are blowing up infrastructure and picking off American soldiers are supposed to be "Saddam loyalists" . Give yer head a shake! Who stands to gain by stirring the pot, preventing a return to normalcy, and killing enough American servicemen that the US public eventually gets disgusted and demands their boys come home? Who ses the UN as a threat to their agenda? Ain't Saddam, baby - he ain't making a comeback. The Bushites are going to invoke Saddam until the US leaves ( likely sooner than later) then throw up their hands when the fundamentalists take over and say " Well who could have known?" The same thing happened in Iran, the fundamentalists were the best organized group and they moved into the power vacuum left behind by the Shah and coopted the revolution. The TAliban took over Afghanistan after the smoke cleared and the Russians were evicted. There was anarchy and they were the best organized to take advantage of the situation. See any parallels to what is going on now in Afghanistan. See it shaping up in Iraq? This is an old pattern - the Reds did the same in 1917. If you don't learn your history....

08-24-2003, 02:31 AM	#28 (permalink)
auswegian Crazy Location: Perth, Australia	English may not be easy but most people I know who come from the Middle East seem to have a very, very good grasp of it. It simply isn't hard to pick up. The fact that she appears to be a self-proclaimed educated woman speaks volumes. I would think that among the educated population of Iraq, English would be very well spoken. They aren't just a bunch of ignorant ragheads, Iraq was always notable as a Middle Eastern country with a high education rates, especially among women. There's nothing in that blog that I find difficult to believe. Paranoia and denial make it hard for certain people to accept something other than what they are forcefed by the neoconservative propaganda machine ironically called "the liberal media". Saddam's regime was evil. But a fundamentalist regime would be more evil, for many reasons. And a whole lot worse than Iran. I am perfectly aware that for certain groups (such as the Kurds) life without Saddam is undeniably better. But for many people, and I suspect women and educated people to be most hit, life will suddenly get a whole lot worse. Saying "oh they'll grow up in a few decades" smacks of paternalism and a complete lack of empathy. But hey, I bet the Bushites will make some sort of agreement with the Islamo-fundies, make sure that American interests aren't threatened, and they can be as repressive as they like. Hey, they let Saudi Arabia get away with it! This will, of course, merely create more 'Islamo-Fascist' terrorists to fly planes in buildings and kill innocent women, but of course that doesn't matter because at least we got rid of Saddam. Yee-haw. __________________ "Look, I'm pretty relaxed for a guy who just lost money on a rave. And who's currently speeding down the highway drunk off my tits. And I'm being chased by someone in a blue Corolla. Woohoo! I just ran a red light!"

08-24-2003, 06:47 AM	#30 (permalink)
JBX Unfair and Imbalanced Location: Upstate, NY	My question is where are the Iraqi Thomas Jeffersons, George Washingtons, and Ben Franklins. The people that put their Countrys intrests ahead of their own and risk everything for freedom. Are there no people in the Middle East that think like our Founding Fathers and are willing to stand up to Islam? __________________ "Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

08-24-2003, 07:01 AM	#31 (permalink)
goobster Insane	Still would not want to be a female trying to survive in that country.

08-24-2003, 11:05 AM	#37 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	The issue is that when there is a power vaccuum, many forces will try to fill it in. The U.S. obviously wants to instante a gov't friendly to the U.S. What will the neighbors think though? They are obviously sending their own people to influence the people there. The irony is that the end will be a result of what the people think (sorta like democracy anyone) - whether the people will want a fundy gov't, a fascist gov't, hell a commie gov't, all comes down to the people there (oh the irony). But, the problem is, as of now, the U.S. gov't doesn't honestly have a clue what it wants there. It says one thing then later changes its mind. They've switched around people in positions there and shit still happens. The concern in the end though is how it shapes up. The entire soldier rotation thing is a bit like Vietnam in one way - it hurts morale. Instead of concentrating on the mission (is there even one now? i dunno why but sounds a bit like 'Nam) they concentrate on how many days left before they go home. Its just a fuckin quagmire there, people say its temporary, but the fact is, as soon as the U.S. pull out the people will be able to change their minds and say "fuck you puppet you're going down" and another gov't comes in. Iraq used to be very friendly to the west and coup's occured as well. The Mid east has always shown that it cannot be counted upon in terms of consistency - the most constant fact is that the majority are worshipers of islam and that is a factor in how they will react in the future (wehther they embrace democracy or fundamentalist). One thing to note though is that the majority of Iraq is Shiite which is the same as Iran...