the end of road map - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Lebell · 08-24-2003, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SLM3
Now I'm not sure whether I can assume you even have an interest in what occured there, considering your misspelling of the country...

Ya know, no one in this conflict is innocent, but if you don't atleast know some of the history then it's ok to just say so and bow out instead of making broad generalizations with no basis in fact and history.

Come back and talk to me when you can stop being condescending and insulting.

stan the man · 08-25-2003, 09:00 AM

i must come to slm3's defense

you did spell lebanon incorrectly and your arguements have been a little scarce on the historical content front

im not attacking you here i just want to hear your defence to his comments before you both go running to the mods

Lebell · 08-25-2003, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by stan the man
i must come to slm3's defense

you did spell lebanon incorrectly and your arguements have been a little scarce on the historical content front

im not attacking you here i just want to hear your defence to his comments before you both go running to the mods

First off, there is no defense using a spelling error as a debate tool. (I note that I also spelled Yom Kippur wrong. You also spelled 'arguments' incorrectly as well as failing to capitalize and use proper punctuation. So what?)

Second, what 'arguments' are you referring to?

I presented one straightforward answer to the straightforward question,

Quote:

So is it seriously your contention that Israel has always been the victim of attack and never the aggressor?

Could you list those 5 occurrences?

Quote:

Maybe he can't/won't, but I can:

1948
1956
1967 (Six Day War)
1973 (Yom Kipper War)
Lebenon (sorry, don't know the year off the top of my head)

The saddest part is that if the Palestinians had accepted the proposed British partition in 1948, they would have had their own state then.

But even up to the latest peace proposals where they had a real chance for a homeland (1992), they have rejected peace, instead continuing to fight to rid Palestine of the Zionists.

If SLM wants to debate who was the aggressor and/or ultimately responsible in any of those five instances, then let him present his case. I however, won't bother debating with someone who can't do it without condescension or insults.

And lastly, you don't ever have to worry about me running to the mods.

stan the man · 08-26-2003, 12:54 PM

it was the list of dates i found to be vague

your argument would have been more poignant if the dates had been backed by some form of foot note

everone loves a good footnote

the real benefit of this forum is the educational value of the well constructed arguments

Mojo_PeiPei · 08-26-2003, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stan the man
it was the list of dates i found to be vague

your argument would have been more poignant if the dates had been backed by some form of foot note

everone loves a good footnote

the real benefit of this forum is the educational value of the well constructed arguments

1948*- "Civil" War erupts after state of Israel is founded. Israel goes ape shit on Palestinians killing several thousand, making numerous territorial gains, as well as displacing tens of thousands Palestinian refugee's

1956- Arab Leauge of Nations moves against Israel, Israel cleans house

1967- Israel pre-emptively moves against Syria, Jordan, and Egypt after Suez Canal is closed and Egypt begins amassing its army to the south of Israel's borders

1973- Sadat attempting to force Israel to sign cease-fire/peace accord attacks Israel on its holy day (yom kippur), Israel struggles first 3 days, then they again make huge gains and mop the floor with the arabs.

1982- Israel moves into Lebanon to deal with PLO/Hezbollah terrorist activity. (ALso I think Syria was somehow involved in this conflict).

There are your foot notes

archer2371 · 08-26-2003, 01:22 PM

I honestly do not know how to solve this thing. But then again, I'm not an expert of all the goings on over there, so like Dragonlich and sixate, I ain't touchin this with a ten foot pole.

Sun Tzu · 08-26-2003, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stan the man
it was the list of dates i found to be vague

your argument would have been more poignant if the dates had been backed by some form of foot note

everone loves a good footnote

the real benefit of this forum is the educational value of the well constructed arguments

Go to this link
http://www.msnbc.com/news/801833.asp?0cv=CB10

On the left side of the page, down a little theres an interactive presentation titled: Israel and the Palestinians- A Conflict Guide, click on: A history of Jewish Settlements, it provides the pictorial walk through that Mojo is refering to.

Issues over history, religious right, and so on are secondary. (minus the extremists such as the ones that see the entire land known as Israel is really Palestine and vs versa)

It gives me the thought of wondering (using America as an example) if the Native Americans fought back (they did actually) as western expansion happened were they terrorists? Im sure there were some "innocent" settlers butchered by Indians, so were they savage terrorists for doing so? Is this just a matter of anthropolgy: the ones with the biggest guns is whos really right. I dont think relatives of those killed on buses or a from a missle see it that way.

IMHO that this boils down to the occupied areas of the 67 war. Im not even refering so much to the Israeli occupying forces themselves, but the settlements. Its no question that the Arab populus lost land with the war. Just like everyone else down through the ages of history; thats called conquest and its a fact of life. The Palestinians were given internationally recognized land with borders which they had to deal with. When settlements began popping up in those areas, is when friction was taken up a notch.

Its said by Israel that they must maintain the occupation for security reasons. Aside from that being right or wrong; its a valid reason; neutraly speaking. The settlements are entirely different. What messege do you think is being sent to the Palestinians in that Jewish settlements are increasingly appearing in their areas? These settlements have the full protection of the Israeli military.

A few abandoned posts were dismantled, same with a small number of smaller settlements. New ones were going up after them. Sharon has stated he will decrease settlement expansion. "Decrease"? What about stopped all together and any settlement in those areas dismantled completely? I dont understand what the relation is in settlement dismantelization (is that a word?) and the underlying security.

**Just a side note on a personal level. THese are things as I see them, I not stating this as "the way" or what everyone else should be believing. Im not attemtping to give a history lesson either. The things I state are as Ive interpeted in my study of history and personal visits to Israel.

Mojo_PeiPei · 08-26-2003, 03:50 PM

They've dismantled some of the more controversial settlements, and I think they have halted the expansion of new ones.

SLM3 · 08-27-2003, 11:21 AM

They dismantled a few trailer parks filled with settlers who really wouldn't have put up much of a fight. The controversial ones, whole communities filled with Zioniist extremists who shoot first, ask questions later, weren't even approached.

I was amazed months ago when the cease fire was announced and actually carried out. However, as soon as I saw this pathetic interpretation of Israel's responisibilty to start taking down the settlements, I knew the cease fire wouldn't last.

You touched on some very good points Sun Tzu.

SLM3

Mojo_PeiPei · 08-27-2003, 12:21 PM

Are you from the region SLM3?

SLM3 · 08-29-2003, 05:46 PM

Well, my grandfather owned a house in Haifa where 3 of my 4 uncles were born. When Israel was created he sent them and my Grandmother to the Bekaa in Lebanon. He stayed in the house until he was forced out by Israeli soldiers. We actually still have the deed to the house. A lot of Palestinians have kept the keys to their front doors. My father was born the next year in Lebanon.

I've been fortunate enough to visit Lebanon quite frequently. I was there in 82 and also in the 90's when fighting would flare up. I was there most recently this summer. I actually met up with a man who lives in Sabra and he took me on a personal tour of both Sabra and Chatila. I met several people there, took a bunch of pictures, and got to see the mass graves. It was an incredibly moving experience. I blame both Israel and Lebanon for the conditions these people live in. It's totally inexcusable. I also visited the border with Israel and spoke with several Hezbollah who were part of the resistance in the 80's during the invasion. It is an unnervingly calm place down there.

I'll stop there but if you guys are interested I'll be happy to put up some pictures of the refugee camps, the border, as well as Al-Khiam (famous prison constructed when Israel invaded). Let me know!

SLM

ObieX · 08-29-2003, 09:04 PM

I think both sides need to forget the past and think about the future. You cant bring back the dead, and recrimination solves NOTHING.

The real way to solve the problem, however, is to just have everyone back off the two states for a year or two. Let them do what they have to do. Have no one step in.They'll continue with their pointless killing. After a while their people may wake up and take charge of their own fate. That or they will end up like Liberia, begging for outside intervention.

For example im pretty sure Arafat didnt give a rat's ass about help from the US or UN... until his compound was surrounded by tanks and bulldozers... all of a sudden he demands assistance? His people getting killed and blowing themselves up doesnt mean a thing, but as soon as his life is in danger "ok, hold on, time-out!"?

Don't get me wrong though... both side's leaders need to go. They need to finish that fense and have a neutral force patrol the borders. Each side stays to themselves. If someone on the palastinian side has a job on the Israel side and can't get there... oh well. If someone on the Israel side has a job on the palestine side and cant get there.. oh well. If a palestinian lives on the Israel side and doesnt feel comfortable.. move.. dont want to move?.. oh well, deal with it. If an Israeli lives on the Palestinian side and doesnt feel comfortable.. move.. dont want to move?.. oh well, deal with it.

For all those that still want to fight after that we can build a little sandbox in the middle of the two countries. If you feel the need to blow yourself up, strap on some explosives, we'll throw a flag from the country of your choice into the sand box, and you can blow yourself up. If you feel the need to roll over a house with a bulldozer, we'll give you a bulldozer and you can drive around in circles in the sandbox running over sheds and doll houses.

Sun Tzu · 08-30-2003, 09:58 AM

I think hes been asking for a long time, but the reality is what good is it? Let's go back 200 years up to this point. I think most would like to think the world has progressed.

It has in allot of ways (I think). The Berlin Wall coming down, the end of the African Aparteid, even the recent US aid to Africa for combating HIV. THe US stepped in when Iraq invaded Kuwait, and a couple of other events. The general point is it would appear the world is going to aid in generalized suffering and not allow further conquest unless it WWIII. The current boundries are drawn; the map is set. Except there; and again the settlements. Why are they still there? Many have disgreed with me on this point, but if Israel would get out of areas that they shouldnt be in; like yesterday IMHO 95% of this would end. (excluding the radicals on both sides that see the whole area as theirs)

Sharon has no intention of going anywhere; why? They would have already moved.

The attitude of letting both sides go at it doenst factor in when the US is backing the Israeli arsenal. (Im not stating thats right or wrong, but simply the hundreds of millions that Americans are giving to Israel makes that impossible.

JcL · 08-30-2003, 10:08 AM

The missile strick last week was a bad move IMO.

As an American it may seem hypocritical to say this, but I think the Isrealis need to simply take the terrorism for some time as they continue to work towards peace. Now obviously, they can police and do whatever safety meassures they need, but missile strikes from a helicopter are extreme to the point that they only continue the blood bath.

The intended targets for that strike got away anyways. If they knew the location of the targets, why not share their intelligence with the Palastinian authority and arrest the targets, and show that they're willing to take this seriously instead of following their tactics of the past.

Sun Tzu · 08-30-2003, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JcL
The missile strick last week was a bad move IMO.

As an American it may seem hypocritical to say this, but I think the Isrealis need to simply take the terrorism for some time as they continue to work towards peace.

Whether right or wrong that would be a hard road for anyone to take, especially for those directly affected. The answer is straightforward; I want to know what the intentions are for not making it happen.

JcL · 08-30-2003, 12:14 PM

I'm sorry, I don't really mean they should just take it - but scale back military actions. They should be combining intelligence and cooperating with the Palastinians. Luanching missiles kills innocents, same with shelling households where a 7 year old girl was killed today.

Mojo_PeiPei · 08-31-2003, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JcL
The missile strick last week was a bad move IMO.

As an American it may seem hypocritical to say this, but I think the Isrealis need to simply take the terrorism for some time as they continue to work towards peace. Now obviously, they can police and do whatever safety meassures they need, but missile strikes from a helicopter are extreme to the point that they only continue the blood bath.

This sounds insane, the Israeli's have a responsiblity to protect their people. Firing hell fire missles at cars might not be the smartest move to do, but hey its taking out the brass that promotes the terrorism and its telling those fuckers that they aren't going to back down.

Working with the PA doesn't work, the PA is affiliated with Yassar and he is one of the fucks that keeps this shit going on. Israel really needs to axe that guy, that'd prolly help some of the problems.

JcL · 08-31-2003, 05:22 PM

I mispoke, they shouldn't simply back down and take terrorism. I simply mean that they should just be more precautionary as to avoid spilling more innocent blood, and to bolster cooperation with the Palastinian Authority in joint measures against terrorism.

08-25-2003, 09:00 AM	#42 (permalink)
stan the man Insane	i must come to slm3's defense you did spell lebanon incorrectly and your arguements have been a little scarce on the historical content front im not attacking you here i just want to hear your defence to his comments before you both go running to the mods __________________ long live the hud

08-26-2003, 12:54 PM	#44 (permalink)
stan the man Insane	it was the list of dates i found to be vague your argument would have been more poignant if the dates had been backed by some form of foot note everone loves a good footnote the real benefit of this forum is the educational value of the well constructed arguments __________________ long live the hud

08-26-2003, 01:22 PM	#46 (permalink)
archer2371 Sarge of Blood Gulch Red Outpost Number One Location: On the front lines against our very enemy	I honestly do not know how to solve this thing. But then again, I'm not an expert of all the goings on over there, so like Dragonlich and sixate, I ain't touchin this with a ten foot pole. __________________ "This ain't no Ice Cream Social!" "Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it." "I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

08-26-2003, 03:50 PM	#48 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	They've dismantled some of the more controversial settlements, and I think they have halted the expansion of new ones. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

08-27-2003, 12:21 PM	#50 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Are you from the region SLM3? __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

08-27-2003, 11:21 AM	#49 (permalink)
SLM3 Insane	They dismantled a few trailer parks filled with settlers who really wouldn't have put up much of a fight. The controversial ones, whole communities filled with Zioniist extremists who shoot first, ask questions later, weren't even approached. I was amazed months ago when the cease fire was announced and actually carried out. However, as soon as I saw this pathetic interpretation of Israel's responisibilty to start taking down the settlements, I knew the cease fire wouldn't last. You touched on some very good points Sun Tzu. SLM3

08-29-2003, 05:46 PM	#51 (permalink)
SLM3 Insane	Well, my grandfather owned a house in Haifa where 3 of my 4 uncles were born. When Israel was created he sent them and my Grandmother to the Bekaa in Lebanon. He stayed in the house until he was forced out by Israeli soldiers. We actually still have the deed to the house. A lot of Palestinians have kept the keys to their front doors. My father was born the next year in Lebanon. I've been fortunate enough to visit Lebanon quite frequently. I was there in 82 and also in the 90's when fighting would flare up. I was there most recently this summer. I actually met up with a man who lives in Sabra and he took me on a personal tour of both Sabra and Chatila. I met several people there, took a bunch of pictures, and got to see the mass graves. It was an incredibly moving experience. I blame both Israel and Lebanon for the conditions these people live in. It's totally inexcusable. I also visited the border with Israel and spoke with several Hezbollah who were part of the resistance in the 80's during the invasion. It is an unnervingly calm place down there. I'll stop there but if you guys are interested I'll be happy to put up some pictures of the refugee camps, the border, as well as Al-Khiam (famous prison constructed when Israel invaded). Let me know! SLM

08-29-2003, 09:04 PM	#52 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	I think both sides need to forget the past and think about the future. You cant bring back the dead, and recrimination solves NOTHING. The real way to solve the problem, however, is to just have everyone back off the two states for a year or two. Let them do what they have to do. Have no one step in.They'll continue with their pointless killing. After a while their people may wake up and take charge of their own fate. That or they will end up like Liberia, begging for outside intervention. For example im pretty sure Arafat didnt give a rat's ass about help from the US or UN... until his compound was surrounded by tanks and bulldozers... all of a sudden he demands assistance? His people getting killed and blowing themselves up doesnt mean a thing, but as soon as his life is in danger "ok, hold on, time-out!"? Don't get me wrong though... both side's leaders need to go. They need to finish that fense and have a neutral force patrol the borders. Each side stays to themselves. If someone on the palastinian side has a job on the Israel side and can't get there... oh well. If someone on the Israel side has a job on the palestine side and cant get there.. oh well. If a palestinian lives on the Israel side and doesnt feel comfortable.. move.. dont want to move?.. oh well, deal with it. If an Israeli lives on the Palestinian side and doesnt feel comfortable.. move.. dont want to move?.. oh well, deal with it. For all those that still want to fight after that we can build a little sandbox in the middle of the two countries. If you feel the need to blow yourself up, strap on some explosives, we'll throw a flag from the country of your choice into the sand box, and you can blow yourself up. If you feel the need to roll over a house with a bulldozer, we'll give you a bulldozer and you can drive around in circles in the sandbox running over sheds and doll houses. __________________ We Must Dissent.

08-30-2003, 09:58 AM	#53 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	I think hes been asking for a long time, but the reality is what good is it? Let's go back 200 years up to this point. I think most would like to think the world has progressed. It has in allot of ways (I think). The Berlin Wall coming down, the end of the African Aparteid, even the recent US aid to Africa for combating HIV. THe US stepped in when Iraq invaded Kuwait, and a couple of other events. The general point is it would appear the world is going to aid in generalized suffering and not allow further conquest unless it WWIII. The current boundries are drawn; the map is set. Except there; and again the settlements. Why are they still there? Many have disgreed with me on this point, but if Israel would get out of areas that they shouldnt be in; like yesterday IMHO 95% of this would end. (excluding the radicals on both sides that see the whole area as theirs) Sharon has no intention of going anywhere; why? They would have already moved. The attitude of letting both sides go at it doenst factor in when the US is backing the Israeli arsenal. (Im not stating thats right or wrong, but simply the hundreds of millions that Americans are giving to Israel makes that impossible. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

08-30-2003, 10:08 AM	#54 (permalink)
JcL Crazy Location: Simi Valley, CA	The missile strick last week was a bad move IMO. As an American it may seem hypocritical to say this, but I think the Isrealis need to simply take the terrorism for some time as they continue to work towards peace. Now obviously, they can police and do whatever safety meassures they need, but missile strikes from a helicopter are extreme to the point that they only continue the blood bath. The intended targets for that strike got away anyways. If they knew the location of the targets, why not share their intelligence with the Palastinian authority and arrest the targets, and show that they're willing to take this seriously instead of following their tactics of the past. __________________ "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth then lies." - Nietzsche

08-30-2003, 12:14 PM	#56 (permalink)
JcL Crazy Location: Simi Valley, CA	I'm sorry, I don't really mean they should just take it - but scale back military actions. They should be combining intelligence and cooperating with the Palastinians. Luanching missiles kills innocents, same with shelling households where a 7 year old girl was killed today. __________________ "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth then lies." - Nietzsche

08-31-2003, 05:22 PM	#58 (permalink)
JcL Crazy Location: Simi Valley, CA	I mispoke, they shouldn't simply back down and take terrorism. I simply mean that they should just be more precautionary as to avoid spilling more innocent blood, and to bolster cooperation with the Palastinian Authority in joint measures against terrorism. __________________ "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth then lies." - Nietzsche