the end of road map - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

stan the man · 08-21-2003, 07:31 AM

was there ever any hope to the road map to peace

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3170115.stm

hell no and any one who thinks that george w has the ability to broker any peace deal is a fool

so my question to you is can peace be achived in the middle east

if so how and if not how do we close our eyes to death and distruction

Nad Adam · 08-21-2003, 07:36 AM

Not until you've dragged out and shot every person (israeli and palestinian) who belives that their god gives them the right to kill people over that piece of worthless land.

Fallon · 08-21-2003, 07:55 AM

To me, it seems that Israel likes to make everyone believe they'll work for peace, but at the last minute, they'll blow it to all hell. Sharon has done a lot to piss of the Palestinians and vise versa. I think we should just get the hell out of that area and let'm do whatever. I don't think we should spend however many billions of dollars to support a gov't that doesn't really seem to want to make peace. What does Israel think...ya, let's kill one of their senior members, and that won't piss'm off, and the rest of the Palestinian people either.

Darkblack · 08-21-2003, 08:35 AM

Quote:

I think we should just get the hell out of that area and let'm do whatever. I don't think we should spend however many billions of dollars to support a gov't that doesn't really seem to want to make peace.

The problem with this is that it is an unfair fight now because we have invested so much money into Israel. I really don't know how to fix the problem over there. It has just blown up so far that it seems like there is no end. The terror groups need to stop and Israel needs to pull out of ALL Palestinian territories. Will either side do that? No, probably not.

The_Dude · 08-21-2003, 09:00 AM

we're back to square one now. looks like isreali tanks are movin back to their earlier positions.

there is no way peace can be achieved because one man's (or woman's) action can throw away the entire mediating process.

somebody blows something up, isreal retaliates, back to square one.

i think it's time for the US to get out of involvement in the area cuz it simply is not gonna work! Stop aiding both sides and the only thing to do is condone inhumane acts by both sides.

Dragonlich · 08-21-2003, 10:15 AM

I'm not gonna touch this one with a ten-foot pole...

homerhop · 08-21-2003, 02:13 PM

let them at it, last man-woman standing wins

mml · 08-21-2003, 02:42 PM

There may eventually be peace in the Middle East, but peace never lasts. Human's resort to violence when we cannot achieve what we want by other means. So while this conflict may one day come to an end it won't be the end of violence in the Middle East.

That being said, it is in the U.S., U.N. and indeed the world's best interest that we try to find a solution. The Palestinians made a move in the right direction, by cutting the power of Arafat. He is an angry and bitter man who has spent most of his life at war and really knows little else. Now, the Israelies have Sharon, who is their version of Arafat. He is an angry and bitter man who has spent most of his life at war and really know little else.

Most Middle East experts predicted an increase in violence if Sharon was elected and obviously they were correct. Now, Israel has every right to choose who they wish to be their leader, but (IMO) until Sharon goes, there is no chance for peace.

JBX · 08-21-2003, 03:13 PM

It's funny how all this death is in the name of God. What assholes. Who the fuck cares what God you believe in, just let the other guy believe as he wishes. No end to it until there is an end to the religous funda"MENTAL"ist. God told then to do it. How can you defend against that until they realize they are living a fraud.

sixate · 08-21-2003, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dragonlich
I'm not gonna touch this one with a ten-foot pole...

That makes two of us.

debaser · 08-21-2003, 03:37 PM

Does anyone even give a fuck anymore?

It's like watching two retard kids who won't stop touching the hot stove.

Let both sides rot, I can't be bothered to care anymore...

SLM3 · 08-21-2003, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JBX
It's funny how all this death is in the name of God. What assholes. Who the fuck cares what God you believe in, just let the other guy believe as he wishes. No end to it until there is an end to the religous funda"MENTAL"ist. God told then to do it. How can you defend against that until they realize they are living a fraud.

Well, Israel's claim to that specific piece of land is religious. God told them it was theirs, apparently. Are they funda"mental"ists and therefore the problem as well?

I believe religion has very little to do with the problem as it stands today. Remember, for centuries Arabs and Jews lived on that land, side by side, as Palestinians.

This death is in the name of oppression, all that's different is which side of the fence (pun intended) you're on.

SLM3

virus · 08-21-2003, 07:24 PM

i'd love to talk about this but i don't know how. anything i write ends up looking like i'm antisemetic or anti-arab.

i guess the safe thing i can say is the UN better get off its ass and put its money where its mouth is, because for many obvious reasons the US has no credibility to the arab-palestinian and arab-israeli populace. i wonder, has the UN tried to do anything there?

smooth · 08-21-2003, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by virus
i wonder, has the UN tried to do anything there?

I've heard it said that the UN has tried to do something but the US consistently vetoes the efforts.

Mojo_PeiPei · 08-21-2003, 08:21 PM

THats probably because the U.N. hates Israel, so obviously we are going to try and help them out as we should. Whether you people realize it or not Israel is a very strategic ally, espcially now with the war on terror. I don't like people blaming this on Bush, you sound retarded, cause Clinton nor Carter have had any more success. Basically we jsut need to left Israel loose, that is the only way to end this.

SLM3 · 08-21-2003, 09:57 PM

they haven't been "loose" for the last 50 years?

SLM3

Nad Adam · 08-21-2003, 11:33 PM

The problem about the UN and Israel is that since Israel (most likely) has nuke-capabilities which is a "I don't need to listen to what the UN says"-card. And they play it every chance they get. And as said before the vetos from the US isn't exactly helping either.

The problem with Palestine is that theres no authority to make demands on or negotiate with. Maybe you should pardon Saddam and put in charge there, he would be capable of getting the militant groups under control and then you would at least have someone with authority to talk to and hold responsible. That's the good thing about having a strong dictator, very few loose guns (see Iraq).

Mojo_PeiPei · 08-21-2003, 11:34 PM

No they have not. 5 times in the last half century the Arabs have picked a fight with Israel, everytime Israel wiped the floor with them. I am suprised at how much restraint Israel has for the Palestinians seeing as to them could obliterate them in about 2 weeks time.

SLM3 · 08-21-2003, 11:38 PM

So is it seriously your contention that Israel has always been the victim of attack and never the aggressor?

Could you list those 5 occurences?

SLM3

zipper · 08-21-2003, 11:39 PM

Well, the fact that one side makes terroristic strikes against civilians and the side make tactical military strikes against militants...

Makes the decision pretty easy from me...for the US to be in a "global war on terror" its really hypocritical for us to stay out of the conflict

SLM3 · 08-21-2003, 11:56 PM

Is it therefore hypocritical for you to have participated in terror as well?

SLM3

Mojo_PeiPei · 08-22-2003, 12:02 AM

Buh? Israel only once instigated an armed conflict. That was when Egypt was amassing its Army to the South of Israel's borders. Lets see how much restraint you show when someone is breathing down your neck...

Sun Tzu · 08-22-2003, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
THats probably because the U.N. hates Israel, so obviously we are going to try and help them out as we should.

Dont forget it was the UN that recognized Israel. In the curent day due to the fact that there are Arab countries that are a part of the UN your probably right about certain members hating Israel. Just becuase you didnt go into details about the issue I'll make an assumption if Im way off please excuse me as I dont mean disrespect nor do I want to put words in your mouth.

Im assuming that your referring to the numerous resolutions drawn against Israel, a majority of which most UN members see them being in violation of (probably one of the reasons Iraq's violation wasnt taken seriously--just a guess though).

Im fairly sure you've researched the history so no need to go into that, but in looking at the resolutions drawn against them; which do you think were/are completely unreasonable and show a obvious dislike or antisemetic view. I think something to consider (even though a certain forum member strongly disagrees) I see a major difference between being anti-semetic and being against the Zionist philosophy.

debaser · 08-22-2003, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
No they have not. 5 times in the last half century the Arabs have picked a fight with Israel, everytime Israel wiped the floor with them. I am suprised at how much restraint Israel has for the Palestinians seeing as to them could obliterate them in about 2 weeks time.

Yee-haw!

Round 'em all up in cattle cars! That'll solve the problem!

stan the man · 08-22-2003, 09:46 AM

wow debaser every thing was going quite civilly untill that last comment i wish you all the best in your defence

good luck mate

Sun Tzu · 08-22-2003, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by debaser
Does anyone even give a fuck anymore?

It's like watching two retard kids who won't stop touching the hot stove.

Let both sides rot, I can't be bothered to care anymore...

So much that I had to disengage from following the events because it starting disrupting my mindset.

Your totally entitled to your opinion Im no one to say its right or wrong, but its MHO that while the current scenerio is located there; I believe that this is a problem that will eventually be affecting everyone reguardless of where they live.

virus · 08-23-2003, 04:53 AM

i'm impressed by how civil this conversation is going. barring random "let god sort'em out" comments.

isn't the fact israel exists largely due to the UN, aren't they RESPONSIBLE for putting some effort into protecting the israeli and palestinian borders? wouldn't it help if it wasn't always a jew or muslim keeping the peace?

Sun Tzu · 08-23-2003, 05:27 AM

I obviously don't know for sure; but its my belief that the US; along with Israel prevents the notion of any neutral peacekeeping forces there.

THe are allot of factors that seem to show the UN for what it is. The observation of countries like Iraq and Lybia heading humans rights and disarmament is often made. They're obvious valid points. I look at it from an outside point of view and see 60 years of resolutions drawn against Israel with the US vetoing every one of them. Ones that still hold violations are simply ignored. I wont comment on this picture being right or wrong; its not good news, its not bad news; its just the news. I wonder why the act is played out or what hopes are to be accomplished; possibly someday the UN might be a real thing. . . only time will tell.

Lobbying is where some of the power is at, or maybe even a little more

auswegian · 08-23-2003, 08:06 AM

I would have to agree with debaser on this. There's nothing we can do now. It's too late. The sad thing is I can see the cycle of violence beginning in Iraq too. The whole damn thing just isn't going to end. It's sad.

There is a serious problem that anti-Zionism is too readily associated with anti-semitism. Thats wrong. I have an Iranian friend who hates Israel. And yet, he enjoys learning about the cabbala (it was Evangelion-inspired, but oh well) and has deep respect for certain fringe Jewish thinkers like Rabbi Cohen. Personally Israel pisses me off most of the time, but I don't hate Jews. The anti-semitism card is far too readily used by certain factions to manipulate people into thinking "if I don't support Israel that makes me a Nazi." That's just dodgy logic.

Mojo_PeiPei · 08-23-2003, 08:14 AM

Israel has it bad. It's obvious they don't want to be an occupying force, but everytime they ease up some asshole Arab kills 20 people in a bus bombing. Then after the fact the U.N. "urges" restraint by Israel, fuck that. Every nation has the right to defend its people, Israel should be no different.

Nizzle · 08-23-2003, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Israel has it bad. It's obvious they don't want to be an occupying force, but everytime they ease up some asshole Arab kills 20 people in a bus bombing. Then after the fact the U.N. "urges" restraint by Israel, fuck that. Every nation has the right to defend its people, Israel should be no different.

Israel has just as much blood on their hands. Why is it that when a Palestinian militant blows something up it's "Terrorism," but when Israel bulldozes homes and kills innocent settlers, it's "defending its people."

Mojo_PeiPei · 08-23-2003, 10:13 AM

Israel never instigates, they only act in reprisal. Besides you could argue that those in the houses they bull doze aided the terrorists, so fuck em'.

Lebell · 08-23-2003, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SLM3
So is it seriously your contention that Israel has always been the victim of attack and never the aggressor?

Could you list those 5 occurences?

SLM3

Maybe he can't/won't, but I can:

1948
1956
1967 (Six Day War)
1973 (Yom Kipper War)
Lebenon (sorry, don't know the year off the top of my head)

The saddest part is that if the Palestinians had accepted the proposed British partition in 1948, they would have had their own state then.

But even up to the latest peace proposals where they had a real chance for a homeland (1992), they have rejected peace, instead continuing to fight to rid Palestine of the Zionists.

BigGov · 08-23-2003, 10:41 AM

The Six Day war was self defense.

Egypt, Syria, Jordan, they all weren't just going for a leisurely Sunday drive to the Israel boarder by coincidence.

Lebell · 08-23-2003, 10:50 AM

I believe that's what I said.

BigGov · 08-23-2003, 10:55 AM

Bah, I misunderstood.

Zeld2.0 · 08-23-2003, 03:02 PM

Mojo, just stop. Sometimes the posts are just making headaches here. Its always someones fault and it can't be the U.S. or its allies right?

Its obvious the fuckups there have affected the world.

if anything it has started the course the U.s. has gone on recently.

Its your choice to ignore the actions there but believe me, it will bite you in the ass sooner or later, and the more you piss of those who who go to the extreme (any side can), the more likely you will see shit hit the fan.

SLM3 · 08-24-2003, 01:47 PM

I wonder about your perspective concerning the 1973 war. Sadat had made numerous attempts at peace with Israel just prior to 1973. In February 1971, Sadat offered a full peace treaty on the pre-June 1967 borders, with security guarantees, recognized borders, etc. This attempt at peace cause panic within Israel and was immediately turned down. What's funny is this offer was more generous than the one Sadat made in 1977, when he was decalred a "man of peace". Jordan followed suit with an offer to recognize Israel and this too was ignored. Along with Israel's rejection of Sadat's offer was an increase in the number of "settlements" in the occupied areas.

After Sadat's daring attempt at peace with Israel, he knew he'd be forced to use his military if he was flat out rejected. After Israel shot down 13 Syrian planes while losing just one Israeli plane in September 1973, an editor of an Israeli journal wrote, "This battle will remind our Arab neighbours that they cannot manage their affairs without taking into consideration who is the true master of this region." In October 1973, Sadat made good on his threat. To paint out this confrontation as simply Egypt being the aggressors of a poor, innocent Israel is to be intellectually dishonest.

As someone who was in Lebanon in 1982 when Israel invaded for the second time, I find it insulting that you somehow blame Lebanon for what Israel did there. 20,000 Lebanese, mostly civilians, died during this second invasion. The reckless air raids on Beirut, the support of the Phalange in their massacre at Sabra and Chatila, the torture camp of Al-Khiam, and the list goes on and on. Now I'm not sure whether I can assume you even have an interest in what occured there, considering your misspelling of the country, but if you do actually care then I recommend you read "Pity the Nation" by Robert Fisk. It's highly critical of all sides involved and is easily the best account of what went on there that I've ever read.

I'm also astonished that you blame the Palestinians soley as the ones who have avoided peace. When England and the UN decided to partition the land of the Palestinians, giving 55% to the overwhelming minority, can you seriously blame the Palestinians for resisting? And can you blame them for rejecting the farce of a peace plan introduced in the 90's? Have you even seen a map of the proposed Palestinian state as it emerged from those talks? A number of small clumps of land, all sperated from each other and sorrounded by Israel on all sides. You'll have to excuse me if I don't jump up and down for joy at that prospect.

Ya know, no one in this conflict is innocent, but if you don't atleast know some of the history then it's ok to just say so and bow out instead of making broad generalizations with no basis in fact and history.

Nizzle · 08-24-2003, 02:31 PM

Thanks for sharing, SLM3. It's pretty rare that someone's perspective on these matters are based on personal experience and historical detail.

Mojo_PeiPei · 08-24-2003, 03:19 PM

Israel invaded because 1)Hezbollah/other terrorist factiosn/the PLO were stirring shit up from within Lebanon 2) The Maronites wanted them there.

08-21-2003, 07:31 AM	#1 (permalink)
stan the man Insane	the end of road map was there ever any hope to the road map to peace http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3170115.stm hell no and any one who thinks that george w has the ability to broker any peace deal is a fool so my question to you is can peace be achived in the middle east if so how and if not how do we close our eyes to death and distruction __________________ long live the hud

08-21-2003, 07:36 AM	#2 (permalink)
Nad Adam Psycho Location: Sweden	Not until you've dragged out and shot every person (israeli and palestinian) who belives that their god gives them the right to kill people over that piece of worthless land. __________________ Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

08-21-2003, 09:00 AM	#5 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	we're back to square one now. looks like isreali tanks are movin back to their earlier positions. there is no way peace can be achieved because one man's (or woman's) action can throw away the entire mediating process. somebody blows something up, isreal retaliates, back to square one. i think it's time for the US to get out of involvement in the area cuz it simply is not gonna work! Stop aiding both sides and the only thing to do is condone inhumane acts by both sides. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

08-21-2003, 02:13 PM	#7 (permalink)
homerhop Insane Location: ÉIRE	let them at it, last man-woman standing wins __________________ its evolution baby

08-21-2003, 02:42 PM	#8 (permalink)
mml Adrift Location: Wandering in the Desert of Life	There may eventually be peace in the Middle East, but peace never lasts. Human's resort to violence when we cannot achieve what we want by other means. So while this conflict may one day come to an end it won't be the end of violence in the Middle East. That being said, it is in the U.S., U.N. and indeed the world's best interest that we try to find a solution. The Palestinians made a move in the right direction, by cutting the power of Arafat. He is an angry and bitter man who has spent most of his life at war and really knows little else. Now, the Israelies have Sharon, who is their version of Arafat. He is an angry and bitter man who has spent most of his life at war and really know little else. Most Middle East experts predicted an increase in violence if Sharon was elected and obviously they were correct. Now, Israel has every right to choose who they wish to be their leader, but (IMO) until Sharon goes, there is no chance for peace. __________________ Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams

08-21-2003, 07:55 AM	#3 (permalink)
Fallon Junkie Location: RI	To me, it seems that Israel likes to make everyone believe they'll work for peace, but at the last minute, they'll blow it to all hell. Sharon has done a lot to piss of the Palestinians and vise versa. I think we should just get the hell out of that area and let'm do whatever. I don't think we should spend however many billions of dollars to support a gov't that doesn't really seem to want to make peace. What does Israel think...ya, let's kill one of their senior members, and that won't piss'm off, and the rest of the Palestinian people either.

08-21-2003, 10:15 AM	#6 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	I'm not gonna touch this one with a ten-foot pole...

08-21-2003, 03:13 PM	#9 (permalink)
JBX Unfair and Imbalanced Location: Upstate, NY	It's funny how all this death is in the name of God. What assholes. Who the fuck cares what God you believe in, just let the other guy believe as he wishes. No end to it until there is an end to the religous funda"MENTAL"ist. God told then to do it. How can you defend against that until they realize they are living a fraud. __________________ "Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

08-21-2003, 03:37 PM	#11 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	Does anyone even give a fuck anymore? It's like watching two retard kids who won't stop touching the hot stove. Let both sides rot, I can't be bothered to care anymore... __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

08-21-2003, 07:24 PM	#13 (permalink)
virus Tilted Location: NYC	i'd love to talk about this but i don't know how. anything i write ends up looking like i'm antisemetic or anti-arab. i guess the safe thing i can say is the UN better get off its ass and put its money where its mouth is, because for many obvious reasons the US has no credibility to the arab-palestinian and arab-israeli populace. i wonder, has the UN tried to do anything there?

08-21-2003, 08:21 PM	#15 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	THats probably because the U.N. hates Israel, so obviously we are going to try and help them out as we should. Whether you people realize it or not Israel is a very strategic ally, espcially now with the war on terror. I don't like people blaming this on Bush, you sound retarded, cause Clinton nor Carter have had any more success. Basically we jsut need to left Israel loose, that is the only way to end this. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

08-21-2003, 09:57 PM	#16 (permalink)
SLM3 Insane	they haven't been "loose" for the last 50 years? SLM3

08-21-2003, 11:33 PM	#17 (permalink)
Nad Adam Psycho Location: Sweden	The problem about the UN and Israel is that since Israel (most likely) has nuke-capabilities which is a "I don't need to listen to what the UN says"-card. And they play it every chance they get. And as said before the vetos from the US isn't exactly helping either. The problem with Palestine is that theres no authority to make demands on or negotiate with. Maybe you should pardon Saddam and put in charge there, he would be capable of getting the militant groups under control and then you would at least have someone with authority to talk to and hold responsible. That's the good thing about having a strong dictator, very few loose guns (see Iraq). __________________ Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

08-21-2003, 11:34 PM	#18 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	No they have not. 5 times in the last half century the Arabs have picked a fight with Israel, everytime Israel wiped the floor with them. I am suprised at how much restraint Israel has for the Palestinians seeing as to them could obliterate them in about 2 weeks time. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

08-21-2003, 11:38 PM	#19 (permalink)
SLM3 Insane	So is it seriously your contention that Israel has always been the victim of attack and never the aggressor? Could you list those 5 occurences? SLM3

08-21-2003, 11:39 PM	#20 (permalink)
zipper Crazy Location: Georgia, USA	Well, the fact that one side makes terroristic strikes against civilians and the side make tactical military strikes against militants... Makes the decision pretty easy from me...for the US to be in a "global war on terror" its really hypocritical for us to stay out of the conflict __________________ "If you wait 'til the last minute, it will only take you a minute!" Visit my home page http://zhphotography.zenfolio.com/

08-21-2003, 11:56 PM	#21 (permalink)
SLM3 Insane	Is it therefore hypocritical for you to have participated in terror as well? SLM3

08-22-2003, 12:02 AM	#22 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Buh? Israel only once instigated an armed conflict. That was when Egypt was amassing its Army to the South of Israel's borders. Lets see how much restraint you show when someone is breathing down your neck... __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

08-22-2003, 09:46 AM	#25 (permalink)
stan the man Insane	wow debaser every thing was going quite civilly untill that last comment i wish you all the best in your defence good luck mate __________________ long live the hud

08-23-2003, 04:53 AM	#27 (permalink)
virus Tilted Location: NYC	i'm impressed by how civil this conversation is going. barring random "let god sort'em out" comments. isn't the fact israel exists largely due to the UN, aren't they RESPONSIBLE for putting some effort into protecting the israeli and palestinian borders? wouldn't it help if it wasn't always a jew or muslim keeping the peace?

08-23-2003, 05:27 AM	#28 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	I obviously don't know for sure; but its my belief that the US; along with Israel prevents the notion of any neutral peacekeeping forces there. THe are allot of factors that seem to show the UN for what it is. The observation of countries like Iraq and Lybia heading humans rights and disarmament is often made. They're obvious valid points. I look at it from an outside point of view and see 60 years of resolutions drawn against Israel with the US vetoing every one of them. Ones that still hold violations are simply ignored. I wont comment on this picture being right or wrong; its not good news, its not bad news; its just the news. I wonder why the act is played out or what hopes are to be accomplished; possibly someday the UN might be a real thing. . . only time will tell. Lobbying is where some of the power is at, or maybe even a little more __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking* Last edited by Sun Tzu; 08-23-2003 at 06:19 PM..

08-23-2003, 08:06 AM	#29 (permalink)
auswegian Crazy Location: Perth, Australia	I would have to agree with debaser on this. There's nothing we can do now. It's too late. The sad thing is I can see the cycle of violence beginning in Iraq too. The whole damn thing just isn't going to end. It's sad. There is a serious problem that anti-Zionism is too readily associated with anti-semitism. Thats wrong. I have an Iranian friend who hates Israel. And yet, he enjoys learning about the cabbala (it was Evangelion-inspired, but oh well) and has deep respect for certain fringe Jewish thinkers like Rabbi Cohen. Personally Israel pisses me off most of the time, but I don't hate Jews. The anti-semitism card is far too readily used by certain factions to manipulate people into thinking "if I don't support Israel that makes me a Nazi." That's just dodgy logic. __________________ "Look, I'm pretty relaxed for a guy who just lost money on a rave. And who's currently speeding down the highway drunk off my tits. And I'm being chased by someone in a blue Corolla. Woohoo! I just ran a red light!"

08-23-2003, 08:14 AM	#30 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Israel has it bad. It's obvious they don't want to be an occupying force, but everytime they ease up some asshole Arab kills 20 people in a bus bombing. Then after the fact the U.N. "urges" restraint by Israel, fuck that. Every nation has the right to defend its people, Israel should be no different. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

08-23-2003, 10:13 AM	#32 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Israel never instigates, they only act in reprisal. Besides you could argue that those in the houses they bull doze aided the terrorists, so fuck em'. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

08-23-2003, 10:41 AM	#34 (permalink)
BigGov WoW or Class... Location: UWW	The Six Day war was self defense. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, they all weren't just going for a leisurely Sunday drive to the Israel boarder by coincidence. __________________ One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

08-23-2003, 10:50 AM	#35 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I believe that's what I said. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

08-23-2003, 10:55 AM	#36 (permalink)
BigGov WoW or Class... Location: UWW	Bah, I misunderstood. __________________ One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

08-23-2003, 03:02 PM	#37 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Mojo, just stop. Sometimes the posts are just making headaches here. Its always someones fault and it can't be the U.S. or its allies right? Its obvious the fuckups there have affected the world. if anything it has started the course the U.s. has gone on recently. Its your choice to ignore the actions there but believe me, it will bite you in the ass sooner or later, and the more you piss of those who who go to the extreme (any side can), the more likely you will see shit hit the fan.

08-24-2003, 01:47 PM	#38 (permalink)
SLM3 Insane	I wonder about your perspective concerning the 1973 war. Sadat had made numerous attempts at peace with Israel just prior to 1973. In February 1971, Sadat offered a full peace treaty on the pre-June 1967 borders, with security guarantees, recognized borders, etc. This attempt at peace cause panic within Israel and was immediately turned down. What's funny is this offer was more generous than the one Sadat made in 1977, when he was decalred a "man of peace". Jordan followed suit with an offer to recognize Israel and this too was ignored. Along with Israel's rejection of Sadat's offer was an increase in the number of "settlements" in the occupied areas. After Sadat's daring attempt at peace with Israel, he knew he'd be forced to use his military if he was flat out rejected. After Israel shot down 13 Syrian planes while losing just one Israeli plane in September 1973, an editor of an Israeli journal wrote, "This battle will remind our Arab neighbours that they cannot manage their affairs without taking into consideration who is the true master of this region." In October 1973, Sadat made good on his threat. To paint out this confrontation as simply Egypt being the aggressors of a poor, innocent Israel is to be intellectually dishonest. As someone who was in Lebanon in 1982 when Israel invaded for the second time, I find it insulting that you somehow blame Lebanon for what Israel did there. 20,000 Lebanese, mostly civilians, died during this second invasion. The reckless air raids on Beirut, the support of the Phalange in their massacre at Sabra and Chatila, the torture camp of Al-Khiam, and the list goes on and on. Now I'm not sure whether I can assume you even have an interest in what occured there, considering your misspelling of the country, but if you do actually care then I recommend you read "Pity the Nation" by Robert Fisk. It's highly critical of all sides involved and is easily the best account of what went on there that I've ever read. I'm also astonished that you blame the Palestinians soley as the ones who have avoided peace. When England and the UN decided to partition the land of the Palestinians, giving 55% to the overwhelming minority, can you seriously blame the Palestinians for resisting? And can you blame them for rejecting the farce of a peace plan introduced in the 90's? Have you even seen a map of the proposed Palestinian state as it emerged from those talks? A number of small clumps of land, all sperated from each other and sorrounded by Israel on all sides. You'll have to excuse me if I don't jump up and down for joy at that prospect. Ya know, no one in this conflict is innocent, but if you don't atleast know some of the history then it's ok to just say so and bow out instead of making broad generalizations with no basis in fact and history.

08-24-2003, 02:31 PM	#39 (permalink)
Nizzle God-Hating Liberal Location: Silicon Valley, CA	Thanks for sharing, SLM3. It's pretty rare that someone's perspective on these matters are based on personal experience and historical detail. __________________ Nizzle

08-24-2003, 03:19 PM	#40 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Israel invaded because 1)Hezbollah/other terrorist factiosn/the PLO were stirring shit up from within Lebanon 2) The Maronites wanted them there. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.