why carry? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

08-04-2003, 01:50 PM

Well i can say this - had I been carrying my handgun the night I was robbed on my front porch, the apartment complex's worries would have been more in the scope of cleaning bodies off my porch instead of my ranting about security in their office.

roc759 · 08-04-2003, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Memalvada
I dont believe in guns. Suppose you're being robbed by an armed thief. If you have no gun, then the probability that he will use it against you (other than for intimidating) are really low; whereas, if you draw your gun, bullets are bound to come flying.

If you have no gun, you will be robbed. If you have a gun and are trained in its use, you may prevent the robbery.

Can't verify it, but a graduate of a combat handgun class was accosted by TWO robbers, both armed with guns. He drew his own gun and shot each one three times apiece, terminating the robbery. The distance was very, very close. I don't believe he suffered any legal hassle from it, as they had two perps and two weapons, and he was carrying legally. The point...it can be done.

I would agree that if you're not PREPARED to use a gun, it would be foolish to carry it. There are four criteria for weapons use:

1. The weapon has to be in your hand.
2. You MUST be trained in its use.
3. The weapon has to work (function and be effective, both)
4. YOU MUST BE WILLING TO USE IT.

Exodus · 08-04-2003, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smooth
If deterence is your rationale, why do you conceal them?

It seems to me that a visable weapon would deter would-be attackers more than a hidden one.

A law enforcement officer explained it to me this way: If people who are afraid of guns see this, and then decide to call the police, you have to deal with that. Even if your legal to carry that, its more of a pain in the ass than its really worth. Carry it concealed, then you have it if you need it, and nobody knows any better. A criminal is generally looking for people with weapons, and if they look hard enough, they will notice it. If not, their loss. If they are a threat to my life... they are DRT.

G5_Todd · 08-04-2003, 09:10 PM

because of my job i can carry 24/7 if i want within my state....

but i rarely do when im not at work.....

mainly because it depends upon what im wearing...

and obviously im not gonna go out drinking on a friday night packing "heat"

seretogis · 08-05-2003, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by smooth
If deterence is your rationale, why do you conceal them?

It seems to me that a visable weapon would deter would-be attackers more than a hidden one.

That logic is flawed. The reason that concealing a weapon is a deterrant is because a criminal doesn't know if a potential victim is carrying or not. Therefore, people who are not carrying "could be" doing so. If everyone who had a permit were to wear their gun on their hip it would 1) easily show criminals who are and are not easy victims, and 2) make those who carry more likely victims of gun theft.

fhqwhgads · 08-05-2003, 05:05 AM

I used to be of the frame of mind that I didn't carry off duty, but I live not too far from the area I work in. It's a rude awakening to be out at the mall with your wife and have the guy you just locked up the night before walk past you. I've had too many "close encounters" and too many death threats to be caught without my gun.

wolfboy2 · 08-05-2003, 08:28 PM

i grew up in a bad area in delaware both my perents carry and beleave me it has saved us
we where on the way home when we stopped at the local 7-11
just as we walked in some perp walks in with a 9mm
nether the less he didnt walk out
beleave me thay didnt want to do it but he pushed it when he butted me with his 9 mm and turned to my dad
i bealve in carring but i also dont beleave in carring sometimes it is a pain but other times its a life saver

JimmyTheHutt · 08-06-2003, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smooth
If deterence is your rationale, why do you conceal them?

It seems to me that a visable weapon would deter would-be attackers more than a hidden one.

Most people have already handled this for me, but I figured I would also post a response myself.

1) Open weapons draw attention. In this day and age, its generally not recommended to advertise that you are armed, as many out there will automatically categorize you as a criminal or lunatic.

2)Open weapons are more likely to be stolen, lost, dropped, etc. If no one knows you have it, they can't take it from you when you aren't paying attention. A good concealed carry also places the weapon more directly under your control.

3)The ability to carry concealed serves the purpose of muddying the line between victim/non-victim for the bad guys. If they don't know who has what, when, or where, they are less likely to try and do something to you.

Interesting point, though, and I understand your thinking.

Veritas en Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

bainatl · 08-07-2003, 06:52 AM

I have had a CC permit for 20 years (former deputy sheriff) and carry a Ruger P90 everywhere I go. It is sometimes a pain as it is a large frame handgun and of course, there are places where it isn't practical but I agree with several of the previous posts. It is much better to have a weapon and not need it than to need it and not have it. BTW, in all those years, never even had to show it to anyone.

Peetster · 08-07-2003, 06:57 AM

I've moved this to Politics, since the basic premis is a political question.

Places with a higher percentage of folks that carry have less gun crime. Period.

Sleepyjack · 08-12-2003, 10:02 AM

i find this all a little scary. I have never considered carrying a gun. I live in Australia and i imagine that gun crime/deaths against population would be far less than some places in the US. Although the only proof i have of this is bowling for columbine, but i don't know how far from the truth that documentary was?

It seems to me that the large reason ofr carrying the gun is fear. Is that right? you're scared something bad will happen to you, so you carry a gun to hopefully protect yourself. That is fear, which isn't neccesaryily a bad thing, it could also be replaced with caution, which has a more comforting or reasonable conatation to it.
Anyway, i guess i am "lucky" to not feel so scared or worried, such that i need a gun to help reassure myself.

Finally, i don't mean to sound too silly, but i don't fully agree with this "It is much better to have a weapon and not need it than to need it and not have it". Its true to an extent, but i guess the same thing could be said that i need to have a helmet on all the time, in case a brick falls on my head, cause it'll be better that i have the helmet and not need it, than to not have the helmet and have a birck fall on my head. Just basically, i guess i am a little naive having never been to america and not knowing too much about the amount of crime and such, but its hard for me to imagine a whole lot of people needing to draw a gun often.

i just think, maybe all this fear, may start to become counterproductive to the way we live our lives in hopefully a free society.

123dsa · 08-13-2003, 08:48 AM

I wonder how many of the "guns are bad" folks out there have actually taken the time to do any actual research on the subject at all. (This would exclude such masterpieces as "Bowling for Columbine")

Learn the facts, your opinions do not matter. Oh, and I am generally right.

LSD

The_Dunedan · 08-13-2003, 08:59 AM

Sleepyjack:
Y'all's Violent Crime rate has risen by 60% since your near-universal handgun ban of a few months back, and is now on the fast track to catch up to the US, in per-capita terms.
Bowling For Columbine was one massive lie from start to finish. Heston's "speech the week after Columbine" was a fraud; bits and pieces of over a half-dozen speeches spanning 18 months, edited together and being presented as the speech he gave at the NRA Convention. In fact, his speech was breif, low-keyed, and required by ther NRA's charter. They had canceled -every- other even of the 5-day convention except the dinner/speech, which is required to maintain their non-profit status, and is also required in their organizational charter.
Moore also went out of his way to equate the NRA with the Ku Klux Klan, which is a fallacy the size of Detroit.
The "Bank Account For Gun" incident was staged. You cannot simply walk into a bank and out again with a rifle; the state where that incident occurred has a 7-day waiting period on the purchase of any firearm. Moore opened his account a week before the scene was shot, had the rifle delivered to the a local FFL ( licensed Firearms dealer ) took it into the bank, had a teller hand it to him, and walked out. This gave the -appearance- that one could simply open an account and be handed a rifle with no checks, licenses, fees, wait, anything. This was, in fact, not true.
Moore also broke Canadian law, on film, when purchasing ammunition. He did not have a license to buy the stuff, nor did he display his identification. An ordinary Canadian would be in prison for this, but since Moore is an anti-gun celebrity with loads of cash...

Sleepyjack · 08-13-2003, 09:22 AM

I don't think moore is anti-gun, in fact he was a member of the NRA himself and a skilled marksman, well maybe. But the main point of Bowling for columbine, was not some anti-gun rant, it had more to do with the media and other sources spreading fear, such that people feel they all needed guns and then use them at will. And if their wasn't so much fear out there, then maybe people wouldn't think we need all these guns.

However, you say crime rate has risen with a universal ban, so i really don't know what to think.... as long as the statistics are correct.
That said, i still think i'd feel more unsafe with a gun, which is a little ironic i guess. If you're not breaking the law though, then there shouldn't be anything stopping you from carrying a gun around. I just don't feel i need it atm.

Zeld2.0 · 08-13-2003, 10:55 AM

Well it still depends on the area you live. The area I live has very few gun crimes and not very many people carry guns. So the argument more gun carrying = less crime isn't entirely true.

I mainly carry a gun if I am traveling alone or if I am going to somewhere I feel threatened. However, I am blessed with not having to go to those places and living in a good area so generally I don't need one.

However I would carry one travelling - you never know who is waiting at a rest area or whatever.

BUT - at the same time, a gun can't always save you. If two guys sneak up on you and put a gun to your back, getting a gun won't mean a thing.

And of course, the best deterrent is to go places where there are a lot of people. Criminals try to stake out deserted places. So really there should be no reason to go somewhere deserted if you can.

The key to the carrying of guns is simple - its up to the user. You have to have the responsibility.

You cannot get angry over another driver and threaten them with a gun. You have to understand that the gun you have can end the life of another person. You also have to know that your gun can't be used to threaten others, to get your way. And also you have to realize that if you miss you may kill someone innocent, so in other words, you have to understand how to use it.

Its too bad theres a lot of people out there who carry it and don't udnerstand that and get into more trouble, such as road rage.

Sparhawk · 08-13-2003, 11:39 AM

Sleepyjack,

Your pretty on target for one of the 'dang fur-in-ners'. America has been pretty swept up in a cult of fear.

How many people, REALLY, get car-jacked or mugged? I mean, if we're talking statistics, your SUV is probably more likely to have a blowout and rollover than for you to be mugged.

Lebell · 08-13-2003, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sparhawk
Sleepyjack,

Your pretty on target for one of the 'dang fur-in-ners'. America has been pretty swept up in a cult of fear.

How many people, REALLY, get car-jacked or mugged? I mean, if we're talking statistics, your SUV is probably more likely to have a blowout and rollover than for you to be mugged.

Do you have a spare tire in your SUV?

Do you buckle your seat belt?

It's not about fear, it's about facing the reality that it COULD happen to YOU and being prepared for it.

chewybaca96 · 08-14-2003, 03:50 PM

It seems like a lot of the people that are wondering why we carry guns have very uneducated opinion. Not saying everyone here, because i have seen some very good posts on both sides of the fence. What I would like people to realize is that 99% of the ppl that have a concealed weapons permit are the most law abiding citizens in the nation. What better person to have carry a gun, other than and officer? Cops cant be everywhere all the time.
I know that laws differ from state to state on when and where you are allowed to use your weapon, but here in utah, for example, just because someone is holding up a McDonalds at gunpoint doesnt give me the right to pull my gun and start shooting. (i would go to jail depending on the circumstances) If the guy started shooting and i felt that there was an immediate danger to myself and those around me, then yes, i can then pull my weapon and take out the guy, and i would feel a duty to do so. i mean how would u feel, packing a gun, someone pulls a gun and demands the money from the register, but goes apeshit and starts shooting up the place. but you didnt do anything and ppl died. i would feel like shit, knowing that i could have done something about it.
That is why we carry, because we feel the need to protect ourselves and those around us, even if they are perfect strangers. I feel safer even when i'm not carrying, but i know someone around me is.

iktoweya · 08-15-2003, 01:35 AM

personally i carry a .38 i dont find it as an inconvenience at all i figure it is better to be safe than sorry

almostaugust · 08-15-2003, 09:51 PM

Im with Sleepyjack on this one. Sure, there is alot of sound minded individuals carrying guns around. But the incidence of these guns causing stupid shootings are too much to overlook.
You can think what you like about Mooore's filmmaking technique (even though the documentary genre has always been a subjective field in its nature) but the facts are obvious about how many people are getting killed with guns (as opposed to the rest of the world) every year.

seretogis · 08-16-2003, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by almostaugust
Im with Sleepyjack on this one. Sure, there is alot of sound minded individuals carrying guns around. But the incidence of these guns causing stupid shootings are too much to overlook.
You can think what you like about Mooore's filmmaking technique (even though the documentary genre has always been a subjective field in its nature) but the facts are obvious about how many people are getting killed with guns (as opposed to the rest of the world) every year.

His "filmmaking technique" isn't what is being questioned, it's his oblivious attitude towards facts.

The_Dunedan · 08-16-2003, 09:15 AM

Actually, when you factor in the entire rest of the world, the US is pretty near the bottom. Brazil, Russia, all of eastern Europe and most of south-east Asia all have MUCH higher rates of violent crimes committed with firearms than does the US. All of these nations also have stringent gun-control laws, with the exception of Brazil.
Furthermore, guns do not 'cause' stupid incidents, idiots do. Concealed Carry Permit holders are responsible for less than .01% of all crimes committed with a gun, according to the CDC. In addition, the "X children killed per day!!!" figures you hear so often are wildly inflated; any person under the age of 21 is counted as a 'child' and the means of their demise is never mentioned. When you're dealing with juviniles over the age of 12, the most common cause of "gun violence" deaths is one gangbanger killing another, closely followed by teenage burgalers and muggers being shot by their intended victims. I'm sorry, but a 16-year-old breaking into my home gets no special leniancy from me on account of his age, neither should the little bastards who raped a 14-year-old in my hometown recently; both being 16.
Fact is, if you exclude justified shootings in self-defense, the numbers drop by nealy 1/2. Exclude gangbangers shooting each other, and you're left with less than 1200 deaths of under-21's per year, less than drownings, poisonings, disease, asphyxia, strangulation, blunt-force trauma, and automobile accidents. Accidental gun deaths in the US are VERY low on a per-capita basis.

TWISTEDBADGER · 08-17-2003, 02:50 AM

Statistics only count when you are one(I just made that up, I think).
If you wish to carry. Carry. If you don't. Don't. It's your choice. Hope you made the right one.

rodgerd · 09-27-2003, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peetster
I've moved this to Politics, since the basic premis is a political question.

Places with a higher percentage of folks that carry have less gun crime. Period.

*laughs* Perhaps within the States. But if you peer out into the big bad world, you'll find yourselves leaders in violent crime. Well ahead of most nations that don't allow people to amble around with handguns.

Food Eater Lad · 09-27-2003, 09:16 PM

I will now tell my gun story.

I was taking my rifles and pistols out of my car after a nice afternoon shooting. My sexy neighbor saw and scolded me. She told me that guns are bad, and that I was sick for having them. For a month or so, she gave me the cold shoulder. As much as I tried to be nice to her, she wouldnt have it.

One night at 11pm my phone rang. It was her. She was screaming into the phone that someone was in the house and she locked herself in her room. I grabbed my pistol and went over. I went from room to room and it was just a dog in the house. She thought it was gone with her roommate, but it was tied up in the back. It seemed to get loose and came in the doggie door.

When I told her it was safe I asked her why she called me, when her boyfriend lived across the street. Why not call him instead?

Her answer. "You have a gun".

Everyone hates guns untill they need them.

smooth · 09-28-2003, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Food Eater Lad
I will now tell my gun story.

I was taking my rifles and pistols out of my car after a nice afternoon shooting. My sexy neighbor saw and scolded me. She told me that guns are bad, and that I was sick for having them. For a month or so, she gave me the cold shoulder. As much as I tried to be nice to her, she wouldnt have it.

One night at 11pm my phone rang. It was her. She was screaming into the phone that someone was in the house and she locked herself in her room. I grabbed my pistol and went over. I went from room to room and it was just a dog in the house. She thought it was gone with her roommate, but it was tied up in the back. It seemed to get loose and came in the doggie door.

When I told her it was safe I asked her why she called me, when her boyfriend lived across the street. Why not call him instead?

Her answer. "You have a gun".

Everyone hates guns untill they need them.

Actually, it sounds like she didn't need one.

eple · 09-28-2003, 01:52 AM

I don't live in evil Amerikka, I have never seen a gun fired, never held a gun. The cops don't carry guns. I have never seen a weapon drawn in a fight, and eventual gun killings will reach national media. If you kill anyone with a gun, you'll get your face all over the place.

Uh....yeah I had no point, just wanted to brag about my higher-rate-of-living, peaceful, not-gun-crazy little country. Don't start asking me about drug laws now.

debaser · 09-28-2003, 02:58 AM

From the Washington Post, 9-24-01

Quote:

Psycho-sexual insecurities
Let's be honest. He's scared of the thing. That's understandable, so am I. But I'm a girl and have the luxury of being able to admit it. I don't have to masquerade squeamishness as grand principle -- in the interest of mankind, no less.

A man does. He has to say things such as "One Taniqua Hall is one too many," as a New York radio talk-show host did in referring to the 9-year-old New York girl who accidentally was shot earlier this year by her 12-year-old cousin while playing with his uncle's gun. But the truth is he desperately needs Taniqua Hall, just like he needs as many Columbines and Santees as can be mustered, until they spell an end to the Second Amendment -- and not for the benefit of the masses, but for the benefit of his self-esteem.

He often accuses men with guns of "compensating for something." The truth is quite the reverse. After all, how is he supposed to feel knowing there are men out there who aren't intimidated by the big bad inanimate villain? How is he to feel in the face of adolescent boys who have used a family gun effectively in defending the family from an armed intruder? So if he doesn't want to touch a gun, he doesn't want other men to either. And to achieve his ends, he'll use the only weapon he knows how to manipulate: the law.

This is not to say that sexual and psychological insecurities are the sole motivations driving the antigun male, or that they explain all men against guns. Certainly there must be some whose motives are pure, who perhaps do care so much as to look tirelessly for policy solutions to teen-age aggression and domestic negligence where none exist. But for a potentially large underlying contributor, it's gone unexplored and unacknowledged.

People are suspicious of what they do not know -- and not only does this man not know how to use a gun, he doesn't know the men who do or the number of people who have successfully used one to defend themselves from injury or death. But he is better left in the dark; his life is hard enough knowing there are men out there who don't sit cross-legged. That they're able to handle a firearm instead of being handled by it would be too much to bear.

Such a man also is best kept huddled in big cities, where he feels safer than he might if thrown out on his own into a rural setting, in an isolated house on a quiet street where he would feel naked and helpless. Lacking the confidence that would permit him to be sequestered in sparseness, and lacking a gun, he finds comfort in the cloister of the crowd.

The very ownership of a gun for defense of home and family implies some assertiveness and a certain self reliance. But if our man kept a gun in the house and an intruder broke in and started attacking his wife in front of him, he wouldn't be able later to say, "He had a knife -- there was nothing I could do!" Passively watching in horror while already trying to make peace with the violent act, scheduling a therapy session and forgiving the perpetrator before the attack is even finished wouldn't be the option it otherwise is.

No. Better to emasculate all men.

Because, let's face it: He's a lover, not a fighter. And he doesn't want to get shot in case he has an affair with your wife.

Of course, it wouldn't be completely honest not to admit that owning a firearm carries with it some risk to unintended targets. That's the trade-off with a gun: The right to defend one's life and way of life isn't without peril to oneself. And the last thing this man wants to do is risk his life -- if even to save it. For he is guided by a dread-fear for his life and has more confidence in almost anyone else's ability to protect him than his own, preferring to place himself at the mercy of the villain or in the competence of authorities (his line of defense consisting of locks, alarm systems, reasoning with the attacker, calling the police or, should fighting back occur to him, thrashing a heavy vase).

In short, he is a man begging for subjugation. He longs for its promise of equality in helplessness. After all, only when that strange, independent alpha breed of male is helpless along with him will he feel adequate. Indeed, his freedom lies in this other man's containment.

Gave ma a chuckle.

David2000 · 09-28-2003, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kel
Individual situations count for nothing. It is the most likely to occur situation that counts.

That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. Individual situations count for everything here because for each person, they are the only ones that matter!

Food Eater Lad · 09-28-2003, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by smooth
Actually, it sounds like she didn't need one.

Yes she did, the fact that It was mine doesnt invalidate the fact that she needed a gun to protect her.

Food Eater Lad · 09-28-2003, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by eple
I don't live in evil Amerikka, I have never seen a gun fired, never held a gun. The cops don't carry guns. I have never seen a weapon drawn in a fight, and eventual gun killings will reach national media. If you kill anyone with a gun, you'll get your face all over the place.

Uh....yeah I had no point, just wanted to brag about my higher-rate-of-living, peaceful, not-gun-crazy little country. Don't start asking me about drug laws now.

You also live in a nation with no diversity. Add people of thousands of ethnicities, races, religons and backgrounds in to the nation and watch as problems arise.

Diversity, America's greatest strength, and biggest problem. ITs a bizarre paradox.

Lebell · 09-28-2003, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by smooth
Actually, it sounds like she didn't need one.

Too bad that isn't always the case.

Quote:

The Sun, San Bernardino, CA, 04/25/03

In an apparent home invasion gone wrong, suspected burglar Deandre Williams was fatally shot by his intended victim. Juan Carlos Garcia, his wife and their two small children had been sleeping when Garcia was awakened by an intruder. Arming himself with a pistol, Garcia went into the living room to investigate. There he encountered an armed man standing by the front door. When the intruder fired at Garcia, striking him in the arm, Garcia returned fire. Williams then ran outside. Garcia followed, and Williams, who was waiting for him, fired at Garcia, hitting him several times. Garcia dropped to the ground and fired one more shot, fatally wounding Williams.

Quote:

Anderson Independent-Mail, Anderson, SC, 06/15/03

The Davis family was sleeping when a man broke into their mobile home. Brenda Davis was in the living room on a sofa with their 2-year-old daughter and 2-month-old son. Her husband, Charles, was in a bedroom when the man entered their home by breaking a window in the living room. Hearing the noise, Charles Davis grabbed his gun and headed for the living room, then retreated to the kitchen with his wife. As they were closing the door between the living room and kitchen, the intruder came at them and Charles Davis shot him. The home invader, later identified as Richard Mack, died at the scene from a gunshot wound to the head. Authorities said it was unclear why Mack chose to break into the Davis home.

Quote:

New York Daily News, New York, NY, 12/15/02

Ronald Dixon and his wife, Tricia, were awakened by a noise late in the night. Dixon could see the reflection of a man entering his 18-month-old son's bedroom in a mirror. Dixon called out to the intruder, "What are you doing?" as his wife called 9-1-1. Not receiving a response, Dixon pulled a 9 mm handgun out of his closet and confronted the stranger in the child's room. When the interloper advanced on him, Dixon fired his gun, hitting the man twice. The intruder, later identified by police as Ivan Thompson, then fell down the stairs and ran out of the house, but collapsed outside. According to police, Thompson has a record of 19 arrests, most for burglary. He was critically wounded in the chest and groin.

Quote:

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Milwaukee, WI, 03/29/03

David Franklin's crime spree through a Milwaukee, Wisc., neighborhood was cut short when one of his intended victims produced a gun and shot him. Milwaukee police said Franklin was suspected in six break-ins within blocks of his home. He apparently chose to break into homes where women lived; and if he caught a woman alone, he raped her. If the woman was not home, he would burglarize the house. Women in three of those cases were raped at gunpoint. The tables were turned on Franklin when he broke into a house and the woman resident shot him in the arm. He was arrested at a local hospital after police interrogated him as to how he had been shot.

smooth · 09-28-2003, 11:39 AM

How do any of those stories relate to carrying a concealed weapon?

Lebell · 09-28-2003, 11:45 AM

I wasn't responding to carrying a concealed weapon; I was responding to your comment regarding FEL's story.

Boardslut · 10-11-2003, 04:28 AM

Hmm,
I can find myself in most of the things told by Sleepyjack and the people who support him in his opinion. I can't really add much that isn't already said by people but maybe this:

A gun in the hands of a wise and responsable person doesn't pose a threat to anyone so therefor I have nothing against people who can be wise and responsable at all time when carrying these guns.

However, all to often, you can read, see or experience that alot of people carrying guns do unwise and unresponsable things. Sometimes wise and responsable people get into situations where their actions are all but wise and responsable.
These situations pose a threat not only to them selves but to the people around them.

I cannot support rules & laws that make it possible for wise and responsible people to posess an all too convenient way to end someone's life in situations where their actions are all but wise and responsable.

My friends uncle Paul was always a very responsible and wise person with a normal life and a normal job. Until the day he snapped, shot his wife and then shot himself. Too bad he had that gun. But yeah ... this isn't really an explanation, nobody knows what actually happened. Maybe he was so angry that he would have done it with a baseball bat, a kitchen knive or even a newspaper (there are tons of ways and examples that non lethal objects can be used very lethal) ...

Xell101 · 10-11-2003, 06:10 AM

Gun laws only stop those who abide by them and the ones who abide by them will not commit the crimes that you blame guns for. Once the gun restriction laws stop affecting anyone who doesn't abide by them it is time to give up on them, because then you'll have impeded criminal efforts as much as you possibley can.

Quote:

How do any of those stories relate to carrying a concealed weapon?

Concealed gun = gun

seretogis · 10-11-2003, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Boardslut
I cannot support rules & laws that make it possible for wise and responsible people to posess an all too convenient way to end someone's life in situations where their actions are all but wise and responsable.

My friends uncle Paul was always a very responsible and wise person with a normal life and a normal job. Until the day he snapped, shot his wife and then shot himself. Too bad he had that gun. But yeah ... this isn't really an explanation, nobody knows what actually happened. Maybe he was so angry that he would have done it with a baseball bat, a kitchen knive or even a newspaper (there are tons of ways and examples that non lethal objects can be used very lethal) ...

Removing a means does not remove the feelings or will behind the action. If someone is at the point that they are willing to take a life along with their own, taking one means of doing so away from them will have little effect.

Boardslut · 10-12-2003, 12:26 PM

I believe you can relate this to the whole Euthanasia discussion...
if there would be an easy legal pill you could take to kill yourself, wouldn't you think that alot more people would do it ?

Maybe that's for the best, but maybe those people would be even better off with a little counceling ...

but you are right offcourse, removing a means doesn't remove the feelings ...

seretogis · 10-12-2003, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Boardslut
if there would be an easy legal pill you could take to kill yourself, wouldn't you think that alot more people would do it ?

Nope, you can easily acquire pills which you can overdose-to-death on, and I don't believe the suicide rate has jumped significantly because of them.

OPgary · 01-14-2005, 03:01 PM

[I was parked one night watching planes come and go. Car load of butts come up to start a problem. My .38 caught their interest and they left. If I hadn't had it then what?

08-04-2003, 09:10 PM	#44 (permalink)
G5_Todd Junkie Location: Reichstag	because of my job i can carry 24/7 if i want within my state.... but i rarely do when im not at work..... mainly because it depends upon what im wearing... and obviously im not gonna go out drinking on a friday night packing "heat" __________________ "....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." -General Franks

08-07-2003, 06:52 AM	#49 (permalink)
bainatl Upright Location: The Conch Republic	I have had a CC permit for 20 years (former deputy sheriff) and carry a Ruger P90 everywhere I go. It is sometimes a pain as it is a large frame handgun and of course, there are places where it isn't practical but I agree with several of the previous posts. It is much better to have a weapon and not need it than to need it and not have it. BTW, in all those years, never even had to show it to anyone. __________________ I was just supposed to go down to Buckhead and get a paper, next thing I knew, I was on I-75, headed for Florida!

08-13-2003, 08:59 AM	#53 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	Sleepyjack: Y'all's Violent Crime rate has risen by 60% since your near-universal handgun ban of a few months back, and is now on the fast track to catch up to the US, in per-capita terms. Bowling For Columbine was one massive lie from start to finish. Heston's "speech the week after Columbine" was a fraud; bits and pieces of over a half-dozen speeches spanning 18 months, edited together and being presented as the speech he gave at the NRA Convention. In fact, his speech was breif, low-keyed, and required by ther NRA's charter. They had canceled -every- other even of the 5-day convention except the dinner/speech, which is required to maintain their non-profit status, and is also required in their organizational charter. Moore also went out of his way to equate the NRA with the Ku Klux Klan, which is a fallacy the size of Detroit. The "Bank Account For Gun" incident was staged. You cannot simply walk into a bank and out again with a rifle; the state where that incident occurred has a 7-day waiting period on the purchase of any firearm. Moore opened his account a week before the scene was shot, had the rifle delivered to the a local FFL ( licensed Firearms dealer ) took it into the bank, had a teller hand it to him, and walked out. This gave the -appearance- that one could simply open an account and be handed a rifle with no checks, licenses, fees, wait, anything. This was, in fact, not true. Moore also broke Canadian law, on film, when purchasing ammunition. He did not have a license to buy the stuff, nor did he display his identification. An ordinary Canadian would be in prison for this, but since Moore is an anti-gun celebrity with loads of cash... __________________ "I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world." --Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

08-13-2003, 11:39 AM	#56 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	Sleepyjack, Your pretty on target for one of the 'dang fur-in-ners'. America has been pretty swept up in a cult of fear. How many people, REALLY, get car-jacked or mugged? I mean, if we're talking statistics, your SUV is probably more likely to have a blowout and rollover than for you to be mugged. __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

08-14-2003, 03:50 PM	#58 (permalink)
chewybaca96 We can't stop here! This is bat country! Location: SL,UT	It seems like a lot of the people that are wondering why we carry guns have very uneducated opinion. Not saying everyone here, because i have seen some very good posts on both sides of the fence. What I would like people to realize is that 99% of the ppl that have a concealed weapons permit are the most law abiding citizens in the nation. What better person to have carry a gun, other than and officer? Cops cant be everywhere all the time. I know that laws differ from state to state on when and where you are allowed to use your weapon, but here in utah, for example, just because someone is holding up a McDonalds at gunpoint doesnt give me the right to pull my gun and start shooting. (i would go to jail depending on the circumstances) If the guy started shooting and i felt that there was an immediate danger to myself and those around me, then yes, i can then pull my weapon and take out the guy, and i would feel a duty to do so. i mean how would u feel, packing a gun, someone pulls a gun and demands the money from the register, but goes apeshit and starts shooting up the place. but you didnt do anything and ppl died. i would feel like shit, knowing that i could have done something about it. That is why we carry, because we feel the need to protect ourselves and those around us, even if they are perfect strangers. I feel safer even when i'm not carrying, but i know someone around me is. __________________ Brian: “Ok, all we’ve gotta do is find the American Embassy, and they’ll help us get home” Stewie: “Home? I have no intention of returning to that disgusting hovel with that intolerable woman, that fat slob, and that insufferable dog… Oh, you’re right here aren’t you? Oh well, I stand by it."

08-04-2003, 01:50 PM	#41 (permalink)
smithja0423 Guest	Well i can say this - had I been carrying my handgun the night I was robbed on my front porch, the apartment complex's worries would have been more in the scope of cleaning bodies off my porch instead of my ranting about security in their office.

08-05-2003, 05:05 AM	#46 (permalink)
fhqwhgads Junkie	I used to be of the frame of mind that I didn't carry off duty, but I live not too far from the area I work in. It's a rude awakening to be out at the mall with your wife and have the guy you just locked up the night before walk past you. I've had too many "close encounters" and too many death threats to be caught without my gun.

08-05-2003, 08:28 PM	#47 (permalink)
wolfboy2 Tilted Location: sandiego ca.	i grew up in a bad area in delaware both my perents carry and beleave me it has saved us we where on the way home when we stopped at the local 7-11 just as we walked in some perp walks in with a 9mm nether the less he didnt walk out beleave me thay didnt want to do it but he pushed it when he butted me with his 9 mm and turned to my dad i bealve in carring but i also dont beleave in carring sometimes it is a pain but other times its a life saver

08-07-2003, 06:57 AM	#50 (permalink)
Peetster Right Now Location: Home	I've moved this to Politics, since the basic premis is a political question. Places with a higher percentage of folks that carry have less gun crime. Period.

08-12-2003, 10:02 AM	#51 (permalink)
Sleepyjack Fast'n'Bulbous Location: Australia, Perth	i find this all a little scary. I have never considered carrying a gun. I live in Australia and i imagine that gun crime/deaths against population would be far less than some places in the US. Although the only proof i have of this is bowling for columbine, but i don't know how far from the truth that documentary was? It seems to me that the large reason ofr carrying the gun is fear. Is that right? you're scared something bad will happen to you, so you carry a gun to hopefully protect yourself. That is fear, which isn't neccesaryily a bad thing, it could also be replaced with caution, which has a more comforting or reasonable conatation to it. Anyway, i guess i am "lucky" to not feel so scared or worried, such that i need a gun to help reassure myself. Finally, i don't mean to sound too silly, but i don't fully agree with this "It is much better to have a weapon and not need it than to need it and not have it". Its true to an extent, but i guess the same thing could be said that i need to have a helmet on all the time, in case a brick falls on my head, cause it'll be better that i have the helmet and not need it, than to not have the helmet and have a birck fall on my head. Just basically, i guess i am a little naive having never been to america and not knowing too much about the amount of crime and such, but its hard for me to imagine a whole lot of people needing to draw a gun often. i just think, maybe all this fear, may start to become counterproductive to the way we live our lives in hopefully a free society.

08-13-2003, 08:48 AM	#52 (permalink)
123dsa Crazy Location: KY	I wonder how many of the "guns are bad" folks out there have actually taken the time to do any actual research on the subject at all. (This would exclude such masterpieces as "Bowling for Columbine") Learn the facts, your opinions do not matter. Oh, and I am generally right. LSD

08-13-2003, 09:22 AM	#54 (permalink)
Sleepyjack Fast'n'Bulbous Location: Australia, Perth	I don't think moore is anti-gun, in fact he was a member of the NRA himself and a skilled marksman, well maybe. But the main point of Bowling for columbine, was not some anti-gun rant, it had more to do with the media and other sources spreading fear, such that people feel they all needed guns and then use them at will. And if their wasn't so much fear out there, then maybe people wouldn't think we need all these guns. However, you say crime rate has risen with a universal ban, so i really don't know what to think.... as long as the statistics are correct. That said, i still think i'd feel more unsafe with a gun, which is a little ironic i guess. If you're not breaking the law though, then there shouldn't be anything stopping you from carrying a gun around. I just don't feel i need it atm.

08-13-2003, 10:55 AM	#55 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Well it still depends on the area you live. The area I live has very few gun crimes and not very many people carry guns. So the argument more gun carrying = less crime isn't entirely true. I mainly carry a gun if I am traveling alone or if I am going to somewhere I feel threatened. However, I am blessed with not having to go to those places and living in a good area so generally I don't need one. However I would carry one travelling - you never know who is waiting at a rest area or whatever. BUT - at the same time, a gun can't always save you. If two guys sneak up on you and put a gun to your back, getting a gun won't mean a thing. And of course, the best deterrent is to go places where there are a lot of people. Criminals try to stake out deserted places. So really there should be no reason to go somewhere deserted if you can. The key to the carrying of guns is simple - its up to the user. You have to have the responsibility. You cannot get angry over another driver and threaten them with a gun. You have to understand that the gun you have can end the life of another person. You also have to know that your gun can't be used to threaten others, to get your way. And also you have to realize that if you miss you may kill someone innocent, so in other words, you have to understand how to use it. Its too bad theres a lot of people out there who carry it and don't udnerstand that and get into more trouble, such as road rage.

08-15-2003, 01:35 AM	#59 (permalink)
iktoweya These pretzels are making me thirsty!! Location: 105B	personally i carry a .38 i dont find it as an inconvenience at all i figure it is better to be safe than sorry __________________ i miss K-Wise

08-15-2003, 09:51 PM	#60 (permalink)
almostaugust Junkie Location: Oz	Im with Sleepyjack on this one. Sure, there is alot of sound minded individuals carrying guns around. But the incidence of these guns causing stupid shootings are too much to overlook. You can think what you like about Mooore's filmmaking technique (even though the documentary genre has always been a subjective field in its nature) but the facts are obvious about how many people are getting killed with guns (as opposed to the rest of the world) every year. __________________ 'And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe Maybe this year will be better than the last I can't remember all the times I tried to tell my myself To hold on to these moments as they pass'

08-16-2003, 09:15 AM	#62 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	Actually, when you factor in the entire rest of the world, the US is pretty near the bottom. Brazil, Russia, all of eastern Europe and most of south-east Asia all have MUCH higher rates of violent crimes committed with firearms than does the US. All of these nations also have stringent gun-control laws, with the exception of Brazil. Furthermore, guns do not 'cause' stupid incidents, idiots do. Concealed Carry Permit holders are responsible for less than .01% of all crimes committed with a gun, according to the CDC. In addition, the "X children killed per day!!!" figures you hear so often are wildly inflated; any person under the age of 21 is counted as a 'child' and the means of their demise is never mentioned. When you're dealing with juviniles over the age of 12, the most common cause of "gun violence" deaths is one gangbanger killing another, closely followed by teenage burgalers and muggers being shot by their intended victims. I'm sorry, but a 16-year-old breaking into my home gets no special leniancy from me on account of his age, neither should the little bastards who raped a 14-year-old in my hometown recently; both being 16. Fact is, if you exclude justified shootings in self-defense, the numbers drop by nealy 1/2. Exclude gangbangers shooting each other, and you're left with less than 1200 deaths of under-21's per year, less than drownings, poisonings, disease, asphyxia, strangulation, blunt-force trauma, and automobile accidents. Accidental gun deaths in the US are VERY low on a per-capita basis. __________________ "I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world." --Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

08-17-2003, 02:50 AM	#63 (permalink)
TWISTEDBADGER Tilted	Statistics only count when you are one(I just made that up, I think). If you wish to carry. Carry. If you don't. Don't. It's your choice. Hope you made the right one.

09-27-2003, 09:16 PM	#65 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	I will now tell my gun story. I was taking my rifles and pistols out of my car after a nice afternoon shooting. My sexy neighbor saw and scolded me. She told me that guns are bad, and that I was sick for having them. For a month or so, she gave me the cold shoulder. As much as I tried to be nice to her, she wouldnt have it. One night at 11pm my phone rang. It was her. She was screaming into the phone that someone was in the house and she locked herself in her room. I grabbed my pistol and went over. I went from room to room and it was just a dog in the house. She thought it was gone with her roommate, but it was tied up in the back. It seemed to get loose and came in the doggie door. When I told her it was safe I asked her why she called me, when her boyfriend lived across the street. Why not call him instead? Her answer. "You have a gun". Everyone hates guns untill they need them.

09-28-2003, 01:52 AM	#67 (permalink)
eple Banned Location: norway	I don't live in evil Amerikka, I have never seen a gun fired, never held a gun. The cops don't carry guns. I have never seen a weapon drawn in a fight, and eventual gun killings will reach national media. If you kill anyone with a gun, you'll get your face all over the place. Uh....yeah I had no point, just wanted to brag about my higher-rate-of-living, peaceful, not-gun-crazy little country. Don't start asking me about drug laws now.

09-28-2003, 11:39 AM	#73 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	How do any of those stories relate to carrying a concealed weapon? __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

09-28-2003, 11:45 AM	#74 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I wasn't responding to carrying a concealed weapon; I was responding to your comment regarding FEL's story. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

10-11-2003, 04:28 AM	#75 (permalink)
Boardslut Upright Location: Zürich	Hmm, I can find myself in most of the things told by Sleepyjack and the people who support him in his opinion. I can't really add much that isn't already said by people but maybe this: A gun in the hands of a wise and responsable person doesn't pose a threat to anyone so therefor I have nothing against people who can be wise and responsable at all time when carrying these guns. However, all to often, you can read, see or experience that alot of people carrying guns do unwise and unresponsable things. Sometimes wise and responsable people get into situations where their actions are all but wise and responsable. These situations pose a threat not only to them selves but to the people around them. I cannot support rules & laws that make it possible for wise and responsible people to posess an all too convenient way to end someone's life in situations where their actions are all but wise and responsable. My friends uncle Paul was always a very responsible and wise person with a normal life and a normal job. Until the day he snapped, shot his wife and then shot himself. Too bad he had that gun. But yeah ... this isn't really an explanation, nobody knows what actually happened. Maybe he was so angry that he would have done it with a baseball bat, a kitchen knive or even a newspaper (there are tons of ways and examples that non lethal objects can be used very lethal) ... __________________ Ride hard for yourself, every day. Ignore the posers, ignore people telling you what to wear, what to ride ... what to be.

10-12-2003, 12:26 PM	#78 (permalink)
Boardslut Upright Location: Zürich	I believe you can relate this to the whole Euthanasia discussion... if there would be an easy legal pill you could take to kill yourself, wouldn't you think that alot more people would do it ? Maybe that's for the best, but maybe those people would be even better off with a little counceling ... but you are right offcourse, removing a means doesn't remove the feelings ... __________________ Ride hard for yourself, every day. Ignore the posers, ignore people telling you what to wear, what to ride ... what to be.

01-14-2005, 03:01 PM	#80 (permalink)
OPgary Tilted	[I was parked one night watching planes come and go. Car load of butts come up to start a problem. My .38 caught their interest and they left. If I hadn't had it then what?