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Old 08-01-2003, 02:44 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Location: the bathroom
why carry?

I own a few guns, including a couple handguns. They mostly sit forgotten and locked up in a closet. Why do you bother with carrying a concealed gun? Seems like a pain in the ass. I've got enough shit to carry around and I've never felt even remotely threatened enough to wish I had a gun with me.

I admit I have a big wooden stick in my car, but it's mostly forgotten under the seat as well. It also makes me nervous knowing the guy next to me might have a gun on him. I don't trust people that much.
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Old 08-01-2003, 03:58 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Location: Seattle
Re: why carry?

Quote:
Originally posted by laxative
I own a few guns, including a couple handguns. They mostly sit forgotten and locked up in a closet. Why do you bother with carrying a concealed gun? Seems like a pain in the ass. I've got enough shit to carry around and I've never felt even remotely threatened enough to wish I had a gun with me.

I admit I have a big wooden stick in my car, but it's mostly forgotten under the seat as well. It also makes me nervous knowing the guy next to me might have a gun on him. I don't trust people that much.
It can definitely be a pain in the ass -- sometimes, literally. However, if no one carries, the deterrant effect of a CCW law is nullified.

Someone who carries shouldn't make you nervous (first off, since you probably shouldn't notice in the first place), as they may save your ass if some wacko starts shooting up a McDonald's that you happen to visit. Hopefully neither of us are in a situation where a handgun would have helped, and one was not available.

"Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst."
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Old 08-01-2003, 05:59 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I don't personally believe in carrying

Being 6 feet tall and living in a really nice Massachussetts neighborhood. I just moved here, not sure if I spelled MA right. anyhow... I think it's important to preserve what's left of citizens rights to arm themselves. Currently I think most people are better off without a weapon. I'd rather get the crap beaten out of me or have my wallet stolen then escalate any situation to lethal force. But the world was once a dangerous place, and times change. They can change alot. And they WILL change. Laws made today have the potential to affect the laws made tommorow in hundreds of other countries for hundreds of years.
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Old 08-01-2003, 06:47 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I agree with Kel that we should have the right to arm ourselves. But, like my grandfather said, if you carry a gun, you're asking for trouble. One day, I want to get whatever license is necessary for me to keep one under the seat of my car, but I don't think I'll ever carry one while I walk through town or go shopping. I'm just not ready for the burden. Sure, it would come in handy if someone was robbing the Mickie D's while I was there, but what about the rest of the time? What about when I'm just walking down the street and some punks want my wallet? They see my gun, and it's playtime for them and lights out for me. Just my humble opinion.
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Old 08-01-2003, 09:26 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I don't normally feel threatened, and carrying is a hassle.

I usually only carry when I am going on a trip, or somewhere that I know is sketchy. But I want the ability to carry whenever I feel I need too.
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Old 08-01-2003, 11:50 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I dont believe in guns. Suppose you're being robbed by an armed thief. If you have no gun, then the probability that he will use it against you (other than for intimidating) are really low; whereas, if you draw your gun, bullets are bound to come flying.
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Old 08-01-2003, 12:33 PM   #7 (permalink)
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It is better to have a gun and not need one, than to need a gun and not have one.
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:16 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Memalvada
I dont believe in guns. Suppose you're being robbed by an armed thief. If you have no gun, then the probability that he will use it against you (other than for intimidating) are really low; whereas, if you draw your gun, bullets are bound to come flying.
If I feel that to be the situation, then I won't draw. If I feel like I really am in danger, then I want to be able to defend myself.

Also, it would be foolish to draw while someone is looking at you and pointing their gun at you. The whole idea of having a gun is to get to it before someone gets the drop on you, so the bad guy won't ever get a chance to point his gun at you.
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Old 08-01-2003, 03:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Location: SE USA
*shrug* Choose to not believe in guns all you want - they exist.

I've never understood that phrase. "I don't believe in guns". I can understand not believeing in God or the Tooth Fairy, but guns? Guns aren't a belief issue. Take a look at the cop down the street. The gun on his/her hip is very real, and entirely unconcerned as to whether or not you believe in it.

As to the question, I have a CCW permit. I don't carry on my person, but frequently carry in my vehicle. My job requires that I drive quite a bit and do so frequently in unsavory neighborhoods. As such, I consider the firearm to be insurance. I've never needed it, and that is how I like it. But I'd rather have it, just in case.
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Old 08-01-2003, 03:28 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Simply becasue I can....when I turn 21...
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Old 08-01-2003, 05:22 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Location: KY
btw... the claim that you're more likely to be hurt when defending yourself w/ a gun is bunk. There was some new research released that showed exactly the opposite. Saw it on FARK. It said something to the effect that women were 2.4 times more likely to escape serious physical injury when using a gun. ( with men is was like 1.6 times) Wish I wasn't so lazy....I'd find the article and link it.
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Old 08-01-2003, 05:36 PM   #12 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: KY
here's a few links: (lost some of the laziness)

http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/may98c.html
http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/pd010401a.html
http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/pd060200a.html
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Old 08-01-2003, 05:39 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Found the one I was talking about.

http://www.guntruths.com/Myths/when_one_is_attacked.htm

Woot!
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Old 08-01-2003, 10:09 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I think if u live in a bad neighborhood (as I sorta do in Newark, NJ) than i belive its a good thing to have a gun JUST in case.
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Old 08-01-2003, 10:40 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I've lived in really bad neighborhoods too (in Chicago)... and still never felt I needed the "security" of a gun. I felt, and still do, that I am wise enough to not get in a situation where I might need a gun, which is why I really don't buy the "just in case" theory...

I guess I can buy the need for someone to have a gun in his/her home more than the need to carry one...because if you are in your home, any potential trouble is really coming to you, and you have no way to avoid it. Out in public, you have very much, almost complete, control over avoiding trouble.
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Old 08-01-2003, 10:51 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Location: Seattle
Quote:
Originally posted by bobw
I've lived in really bad neighborhoods too (in Chicago)... and still never felt I needed the "security" of a gun. I felt, and still do, that I am wise enough to not get in a situation where I might need a gun, which is why I really don't buy the "just in case" theory...
Good for you. However, people who carry handguns do not make an effort to get into trouble, and are taught to avoid bad neighborhoods, suspicious groups of people, etc. However, if you and Joe-Handgun-Carrier both are attacked seemingly randomly, Joe-Handgun-Carrier will have a much better chance of escaping unharmed. The most important aspect of shall-issue carry laws is that it acts as a crime deterrant, not that civilians packing guns can roam the streets in yellow tights and be superheroes.

Quote:
Originally posted by bobw
I guess I can buy the need for someone to have a gun in his/her home more than the need to carry one...because if you are in your home, any potential trouble is really coming to you, and you have no way to avoid it. Out in public, you have very much, almost complete, control over avoiding trouble.
If someone is determined to rob/rape/assault/kill you, there is little that you can do to stop them. You can only cross the street so many times. If you are clairvoyant and know beyond a doubt that you have absolutely no need for a gun for personal protection, then by all means do not get one. However, not all of us posess such gifts and so may feel the need to have a relatively fail-safe method of self-defense. Please don't suggest that those who carry are less competant or ignorant, as the opposite is true.
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Old 08-01-2003, 11:27 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by seretogis
Good for you. However, people who carry handguns do not make an effort to get into trouble, and are taught to avoid bad neighborhoods, suspicious groups of people, etc. However, if you and Joe-Handgun-Carrier both are attacked seemingly randomly, Joe-Handgun-Carrier will have a much better chance of escaping unharmed. The most important aspect of shall-issue carry laws is that it acts as a crime deterrant, not that civilians packing guns can roam the streets in yellow tights and be superheroes.



If someone is determined to rob/rape/assault/kill you, there is little that you can do to stop them. You can only cross the street so many times. If you are clairvoyant and know beyond a doubt that you have absolutely no need for a gun for personal protection, then by all means do not get one. However, not all of us posess such gifts and so may feel the need to have a relatively fail-safe method of self-defense. Please don't suggest that those who carry are less competant or ignorant, as the opposite is true.
Ay, and therein lies the rub. It is very unclear whether Joe-handgun-carrier is better off. There is the argument worth entertaining that if you give up your wallet, get raped etc. that no one will be killed. You might even argue that bringing a gun into the situation escalates it to lethal force and only makes things worse. This is based on the belief that most criminals are not interested in killing or harming their victims. Determining what is really the case requires accurate statistical analysis that really isn't possible on the data available (police reports).

It's all an ugly numbers game that no one plays fair. Or at least that's my take on the issue.

To carry or not to carry that is the question. Whether tis better to suffer...
Yadda yadda you know the rest
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Old 08-02-2003, 12:56 AM   #18 (permalink)
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was it texas where some maniac decided to start shooting ppl in a mcdonalds? what if someone was ther and armed, knew what ther were doing and shot that bastard before he had the chance to hurt anymore ppl than he did? wouldnt that justify carrying a weapon? or is it just ok for maniacs to carry guns and shoot innocents unopposed?
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Old 08-02-2003, 02:27 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Location: IL
Quote:
Originally posted by kel
This is based on the belief that most criminals are not interested in killing or harming their victims.
I personally dont want to trust that a criminal isnt interested in hurting me. I want protection from even giving him a chance to hurt me.
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Old 08-02-2003, 08:30 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by GunslingerCold
I personally dont want to trust that a criminal isnt interested in hurting me. I want protection from even giving him a chance to hurt me.
In doing so you may feel safe, but statistically you increase the chance of getting shot with your own weapon. You do not increase the chance of coming out of an encounter unscathed (some would argue maybe me :-)
Your literally, shooting yourself in the foot. Individual situations count for nothing. It is the most likely to occur situation that counts.

If you want to do it on principle go ahead, I believe other people have the right to do risky things. No one stops me from inline skating on the highway without a helmet.
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Old 08-02-2003, 10:43 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Location: SE USA
"In doing so you may feel safe, but statistically you increase the chance of getting shot with your own weapon. "

This is an inane tautology if I've ever read one. Of course you have a greater chance of getting injured by your own weapon in a conflict if you carry. If you don't carry it, it will not be involved in the conflict at all. Inane.

Let's see...

Chance of getting injured by a gun I left at home at the time of an assault: zero
Chance of getting injured by a gun I have on my person at the time of an assault: miniscule

Miniscule is a substantial increase from zero. Wow.

And this is why I called it a tautology.
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Old 08-02-2003, 10:51 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Location: Lowerainland BC
As much as I like guns, I don't feel the need to carry a hand-gun at all. I'm glad I live in an area of the world that has very little gun crimes. It's nice to go to bed and not have to worry about that shit.
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Old 08-02-2003, 01:06 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Heh, my bad. The argument put in a single sentence is:
"Joe handgun carrier is more likely to be shot or seriously injured then Jane miss wussy pants who just loses her wallet or her purity"
Whether it occurs with your own gun or someone elses, JHC is less likely to come home that night.

The point of debate is whether the statistics being quoted by the NRA or the liberal lefty's are more accurate. Whether the above is the case depends on that.

Anyway, the first presentation was the same. You only quoted the first sentence and then called it an inane tautology.

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Last edited by kel; 08-02-2003 at 01:11 PM..
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Old 08-02-2003, 03:42 PM   #24 (permalink)
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It is much better to be safe than sorry. The only place I dont carry my Glock is 1) In a bar 2) University Campus 3) Any place that is posted "No Firearms" . Simply because even with a CCW they will put your ass in jail. I would much rather have a gun and not need it than to need it and not have it. I completely agree with debaser.
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Old 08-02-2003, 03:46 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Yeah, the woman should just go along with being raped. After all, she probably "deserved" it by wearing a short skirt or something, right?

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Old 08-02-2003, 04:59 PM   #26 (permalink)
kel
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Getting back to where I started

3rd try :-)

I am not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to focus attention on the real issue I have been trying to talk about but which no one has acknowledged yet.

Carrying a weapon decreases the odds of you becoming a victim, but it also decreases the odds of walking away from an encounter unscathed. Escalating the situation to involve lethal weapons, does it truly make you safer?

It's the question I have been asking the whole time. No one answers to that question.

I posed it as a question of statistical analysis. Is the above the reality or not?
If you want to comment on my line of thought that is the question to answer.

You can bring studies which cite sources. For instance a study that investigates nationwide police reports comparing incidents where the victim was armed and incidents where the victim was unarmed. Statistically, was the armed victim more likely to walk away unscathed?
It's a black and white yes or no answer.
The muddy part is that each side of the issue tends to pick reports and incidents in favor of their view of the issue. But if you can find an impartial

Now there are plenty of other reasons to carry. Some people would rather take the risk and not end up a victim. Others want to exercise their carry rights as a deterrent to criminals. I am not addressing that. I agree with all of them, but I value my own safety more, and carrying is hassle. So please try and stay on target ;-)

As for the womans proper response?
Scream really loud... run... Break out the mace! Really, mace is amazing stuff, I got a full facial with it a while back becuase someone in my highschool though it would be funny to do it right before the big game. Was an incredible experience to say the least. This was back when I was 15. Barring any of those being safe options. Well life isn't fair.
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Last edited by kel; 08-02-2003 at 05:06 PM..
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Old 08-02-2003, 05:24 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Getting back to where I started

Quote:
Originally posted by kel

Carrying a weapon decreases the odds of you becoming a victim, but it also decreases the odds of walking away from an encounter unscathed. Escalating the situation to involve lethal weapons, does it truly make you safer?
Yes, it does.

Given the option to defend yourself, if neccessary, with lethal force makes you considerably less likely to suffer greivous injury or death at the hands of an attacker.

If the carrier is not careful, it can also lead to the escalation of a minor situation. This was stressed in the CC course I took. When I carry, you will not find a more respectful, courteous person than me. The point is to avoid situations, like flipping off another driver, that could lead to an altercation.

Where you got the statistics that carrying a weapon makes you less likely to walk away from a situation unscathed, I do not know, but I can see no truth in it.

Also, don't forget the general deterent that armed citizens have on violent criminals.

Again, it is better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.


Edit - Oh yeah, mace doesn't work at all against a determined attacker. I got sprayed as part of my training, and kicked the hell out of the guy who sprayed me.
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Old 08-02-2003, 05:48 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I am not asking for a conceptual argument. I want to look at the statistical reality. This will be my last post on the subject.
Stay safe everyone.
Cheers!
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Old 08-02-2003, 05:57 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I don't know if anyone has actually done a hard study to provide those statistics. Most of what we have is inference based on existing databases, which is horrible skewed to one side of the argument or the other, based on who produces it...
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Old 08-02-2003, 07:41 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I have a "Right to Bear Arms" so I do. If you have the training. And like anything you got to take it out and practice with it. Just to have a CW permit is not enough.
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Old 08-03-2003, 01:42 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Exodus
It is much better to be safe than sorry. The only place I dont carry my Glock is 1) In a bar 2) University Campus 3) Any place that is posted "No Firearms" . Simply because even with a CCW they will put your ass in jail. I would much rather have a gun and not need it than to need it and not have it. I completely agree with debaser.
Precisely the point behind CCW laws, particularly in AZ. It's better to be prepared, and not need that preparation, then be found wanting. The loud annoucement that you have a gun and are not afraid to use it in a threatening situation (one thing generally required for a clean shoot) changes things dramatically. Most criminals and ne'er-do-wells prefer complacency on the part of their intended targets. Its more hassle than its worth, if someone fights back. Particularly when that someone might be able to dish out more punishment. That's the reason I carry a legally concelable knofe (blade length under 4" in most states). I can take that one anywhere, without the need for my permit. Add the gun when I am in legal areas, and there you go.

Most of the time I don't carry, simply because most of the places around me have seen fit to legally declare that no weapons are allowed inside. But its nice when I have to travel, particularly to some of the nastier places like Phoenix, Tucson, or Yuma.

Veritas en Lux!
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Old 08-03-2003, 06:25 AM   #32 (permalink)
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A friend of mine was a police officer. His advice on handguns was simple. If you carry one, be prepared to use it. If you use it, be prepared to kill someone. Waving a gun around will usually get you shot. This was the reason he left the police force. He was unprepared to kill another human being. It is usually better to avoid dangerous situations than to expect to get out of them with what little training you may have in using a handgun. Handguns in an urban setting have only one use - to kill another person.
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Old 08-03-2003, 01:56 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by JimmyTheHutt
The loud annoucement that you have a gun and are not afraid to use it in a threatening situation (one thing generally required for a clean shoot) changes things dramatically. Most criminals and ne'er-do-wells prefer complacency on the part of their intended targets. Its more hassle than its worth, if someone fights back. Particularly when that someone might be able to dish out more punishment. That's the reason I carry a legally concelable knofe (blade length under 4" in most states). I can take that one anywhere, without the need for my permit. Add the gun when I am in legal areas, and there you go.
If deterence is your rationale, why do you conceal them?

It seems to me that a visable weapon would deter would-be attackers more than a hidden one.
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Old 08-03-2003, 02:52 PM   #34 (permalink)
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You don't have to see something to have it be a deterent. Just the "what if" should be enough to make someone think twice. You wear a condom because she <i>may</i> have a disease, regardless if you see any visible signs of it or not.

I carry almost without exception...but then again, as an officer, my viewpoint is kind of skewed.
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Old 08-03-2003, 03:02 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Location: North Carolina
Quote:
Originally posted by smooth
If deterence is your rationale, why do you conceal them?

It seems to me that a visable weapon would deter would-be attackers more than a hidden one.
Yeah, a visible weapon is definitely more of a deterrent, but, most people who carry don't want to have to announce to the world that they are armed.
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Old 08-03-2003, 03:04 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Plus, concealed carry is a general deterent, rather than a specific one. You are made safer by it whether you choose to carry or not.
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Old 08-03-2003, 03:51 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Kel: I dont know if your still listening though you stopped posting but ill tell you right now that the statistics say that allowing a rapist to rape you instead of fighting it( with whatever you have including a gun) will most likely lead to the rapist raping again. Beyond that, your minimizing rape to the loss of purity is pathetic and shows disrespect to all the women that have gone through such traumatic events. I dont know how old you are but I would like to hear you tell your wife/significant other that you believe rape is not a significant injury and that if she was in a situation where she was about to be raped she should not be a wuss and just take it.

Last edited by zfleebin; 08-03-2003 at 04:00 PM..
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Old 08-04-2003, 05:00 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Location: KY
kel,

look back up at my links I posted a few days back. they contain statistical data and should answer your questions.
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Old 08-04-2003, 06:04 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by debaser
Plus, concealed carry is a general deterent, rather than a specific one. You are made safer by it whether you choose to carry or not.
This is the point!! An unarmed society of good citizens makes a great society of victims!!

If all guns are outlawed along with CCW then only outlaws will have guns!! i.e. NYC, Washington DC, Chicago

I carry 24/7, 365!! If the building is posted and you are detected it is only tresspassing!

I do not believe the hype that my gun will be used against me!

Train, Train, Train!! I shoot 2-4 hundred rounds a week, every week!!

There are a lot of crazy quotes out there, i.e. From my cold dead hands! But to tell you the truth they are just a way for someone to express themselves!!
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Old 08-04-2003, 07:30 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Location: SE USA
Kel, check out "More Guns, Less Crime" by Locke. It is a useful book of studies and statistics. It also has the advantage of being written by someone that was neutral on the issue if not leaning slightly towards gun control friendly. He is now a major advocate of gun rights.

As to the "in part" portion of your post, the entire post was a tautology. If it was intended as a question, I missed it. As a question, it is, of course, no tautology. For the answer to your question, see the above book. It is an eye-opener.
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