The growing TSA backlash: Is American culture incompatible with "Israelification"? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Shadowex3 · 11-19-2010, 09:00 PM

Pretty much since it's birth security experts such as Mr. Schneier have spoken out about how it's more or less a sham, Security Theatre being the preferred term, and over time the general attitude has been one of growing loathing and recognition of that fact... but it wasn't until the Backscatter scanners that people really started to speak out.

Mr. Schneier gives an excellent summary of the situation so far. Airline personnel are refusing to cooperate, airports are seeking to use the opt-out provision to find private security, foreign airlines and nationals are demanding their countries refuse to cooperate with american security demands, and now regardless of the validity of his behavior "Don't Grope Me Bro" has become a sort of Rosa Parks figure.

The problem is while we can probably all agree on the general incompetence of our current security... I don't think we can successfully "Israelify" our system:

Quote:

"First, it's fast — there's almost no line. That's because they're not looking for liquids, they're not looking at your shoes. They're not looking for everything they look for in North America. They just look at you," said Sela. "Even today with the heightened security in North America, they will check your items to death. But they will never look at you, at how you behave. They will never look into your eyes ... and that's how you figure out the bad guys from the good guys."

That's the process — six layers, four hard, two soft. The goal at Ben-Gurion is to move fliers from the parking lot to the airport lounge in a maximum of 25 minutes.

This doesn't begin to cover the off-site security net that failed so spectacularly in targeting would-be Flight 253 bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab — intelligence. In Israel, Sela said, a coordinated intelligence gathering operation produces a constantly evolving series of threat analyses and vulnerability studies.

"There is absolutely no intelligence and threat analysis done in Canada or the United States," Sela said. "Absolutely none."

I don't think our culture supports the process. i think that we don't even need to worry about the political corruption behind all of our Security Theatre because if we tried any sort of meaningful "Israelification" in America we'd have people suing left and right over profiling and privacy breaches. Even if we didn't we then DO need to deal with the political problems in the field, that its extremely convenient for a great many people to get everyone used to being bullied and afraid.

What do you guys think, am i being too pessimistic here? Does this backlash actually have a chance of accomplishing anything?

I wonder what effect it would have on the economy if the entire TSA just got put on hold in time for holiday travelling...

Willravel · 11-19-2010, 09:46 PM

Security theater is a cruel joke.

RogueGypsy · 11-19-2010, 09:53 PM

I'm not sure about "Israelification' but we definitely need to take a more intelligent approach to security, instead of throwing money at it. I find absolutely nothing comforting or 'secure' about an over paid Rent-A-Cop fondling my testicles.

I don't know what the motive behind the scanners is, but security doesn't seem to be it. From what I read, they aren't very effective at detection. It's my understanding that Dogs and other less intrusive methods are far less expensive and more effective. That and to date I believe the number of terrorists discovered with these methods is ZERO.

In January I have a trip to Vegas planned. It is my intention to make this worse for them than it is for me. Up to and possibly including: Declining the Porn scanner in favor of the molester pat down, giggling and making 'sexual sounds' during the pat down, sporting the stiffest wood I can manage and eating a bowl of Yogurt before hand (I'm lactose intolerant).

I fully intend to do my utmost to end the career of a couple of these Ass hat Rent-A-Cops. I'm not above stripping down to my boxer briefs to facilitate the search either. Maybe I can save a less comfortable passenger from the embarrassment of these invasive procedures.

How this bullshit was ever introduced is beyond me. Maybe we should have all of Congress, the Senate, the President and everyone involved in HLS do a walk through on Live TV to show us how 'easy' it is.

..

Willravel · 11-19-2010, 10:20 PM

Hahaha...please put that up on youtube.

Shadowex3 · 11-20-2010, 12:24 AM

The point of the scanners is that the guy that's basically singlehandedly getting them planted everywhere also happens to be making large bags of money off of their production and sale.

RogueGypsy · 11-20-2010, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowex3

The point of the scanners is that the guy that's basically singlehandedly getting them planted everywhere also happens to be making large bags of money off of their production and sale.

That was my first thought.

Seems our government has become so nepotistic we should be considered a Monarchy.

dogzilla · 11-20-2010, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowex3

I don't think our culture supports the process. i think that we don't even need to worry about the political corruption behind all of our Security Theatre because if we tried any sort of meaningful "Israelification" in America we'd have people suing left and right over profiling and privacy breaches. Even if we didn't we then DO need to deal with the political problems in the field, that its extremely convenient for a great many people to get everyone used to being bullied and afraid.

I think you're right that there's no chance of techniques like profiling being used. There's too many people who have a fit about profiling even when profiling makes sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowex3

What do you guys think, am i being too pessimistic here? Does this backlash actually have a chance of accomplishing anything?

I'm optimistic. I think a line has been crossed with these pat downs and scanners that people are going to demand that the current process be changed.

The current system is a joke. It's not accomplishing anything and just makes some people feel more 'secure'.

roachboy · 11-20-2010, 06:24 AM

what willravel said.

security theater is a farce.

dksuddeth · 11-20-2010, 07:59 AM

the only way this 'backlash' has any chance of success is that the people take their complaints to the group of people that created TSA, the legislature. Otherwise, the TSA doesn't give a crap, as is shown by their latest announcement of 'submit to screening or pay the fine'. And this isn't a criminal penalty, it is a CIVIL fine, so you can't defend yourself in court and have it dismissed.

Tully Mars · 11-20-2010, 10:54 AM

Wow, never seen a thread where so many from differing points of view agree. Not sure if I should be encouraged or scared.

For the most part I agree with most of the complaints here but I think bitching about the average TSA employee is really nothing more then shooting the messenger. My guess is over %50 of TSA workers were were working food service type jobs or unemployed prior to being hired. They're probably damn glad to have a job and are trying their best to follow the directions of management.

I also think the first time some suicide bomber shoves some C-4 up his ass and takes out a jet full of people then half of all Americans will willingly bend over for a cavity search. Over reaction replaced baseball as the US's favorite pass time a long time ago.

Plan9 · 11-20-2010, 10:58 AM

I concur with Roachboy and WillRavel. This isn't healthy.

Fotzlid · 11-20-2010, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

what willravel said.

security theater is a farce.

+1

Unfortunately the TSA is the government and if you want anything completely screwed up, over budget, unpopular and turning a deaf ear to the public, the government is the right one for the job.

The only way to get the TSA to listen is to have massive boycotts of airline travel. They won't listen to the people, but they will listen to the companies losing money.

I also don't see that happening anytime soon. There will be a few more spectacles like the "don't touch my junk" guy, then the TSA will start levying large fines and/or jail time for anyone disrupting the screening process. The sheeple will then fall dutifully in line. Then a few years after that, there will be the obligatory system wide scandal involving excessive groping or other abuses of power resulting from improper screening of applicants and general lack of accountability.

or maybe I just had to much cynicism for lunch....

Mojo_PeiPei · 11-20-2010, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogzilla

I think you're right that there's no chance of techniques like profiling being used. There's too many people who have a fit about profiling even when profiling makes sense.

It should be an obvious response, don't know why people get so heated at the prospect.

I've heard the new "nude screening" machines are also useless in detecting chemicals and plastic. Anybody hear anything definitive to this?

dogzilla · 11-20-2010, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

the only way this 'backlash' has any chance of success is that the people take their complaints to the group of people that created TSA, the legislature. Otherwise, the TSA doesn't give a crap, as is shown by their latest announcement of 'submit to screening or pay the fine'. And this isn't a criminal penalty, it is a CIVIL fine, so you can't defend yourself in court and have it dismissed.

I just got done using email links to send an email to all of my Congressmen and to the White House on this topic. Maybe if enough people do this, this stupidity might get rescinded.

samcol · 11-20-2010, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

Wow, never seen a thread where so many from differing points of view agree. Not sure if I should be encouraged or scared.

For the most part I agree with most of the complaints here but I think bitching about the average TSA employee is really nothing more then shooting the messenger. My guess is over %50 of TSA workers were were working food service type jobs or unemployed prior to being hired. They're probably damn glad to have a job and are trying their best to follow the directions of management.

I also think the first time some suicide bomber shoves some C-4 up his ass and takes out a jet full of people then half of all Americans will willingly bend over for a cavity search. Over reaction replaced baseball as the US's favorite pass time a long time ago.

I don't really have any respect for someone who works in the TSA. I've flown many times and the people working for them just aren't the type of people I'd like to associate myself with. Their behavior reminds me more of prison guards than of a professional security agency.

They are short with everyone and always seem to be glaring or just generally in a bad mood. Also, anyone who would willingly do these invasive pat downs or inspect the full body naked scanners really have mental issues or sexual perversions imo.

Just doing your job doesn't cut it for me.

filtherton · 11-20-2010, 06:12 PM

I wonder if you can apply specifically to the groper position? I bet recruitment for priesthood just got a lot more difficult.

Xazy · 11-20-2010, 07:52 PM

Sorry I think it is a farce and total crap the security we have. We have low wage, poorly trained staff who are responsible for harassing us to death and making he entire airport experience a torture I dread.

If you ever go to Israel airport, I was there a few years ago when there was a suspicious bag left behind. It took all of 5 minutes for the entire area to be evacuated, and within 15 minutes the bomb squad had investigated the situation and we were in line. At JFK a similar situation took place and it took over 3 hours. The quality of staff at the airport there, the training, compared to US is night and day.

Redlemon · 11-21-2010, 07:13 AM

An editorial in my paper started today with the question "When will we finally declare the TSA to be a terrorist organization?"

I'm quite glad we only flew once this year, and will probably only fly twice next year.

uncle phil · 11-21-2010, 06:24 PM

ya know, i have no problem with being x-rayed, fluoroscoped, whatever, before getting on an airplane, as long as everyone else undergoes the same procedure. saw something on the interweb the other day though that makes a modicum of sense to me, though...

airport security.jpg

Shadowex3 · 11-21-2010, 06:58 PM

That's more or less how they handle baggage in Israel. Everything goes through a special area that's built to withstand a really nice sized Boom and then if anything suspicious happens they evacuate JUST that area and let the bomb squad deal with it while everything else continues to be functional.

SirLance · 11-21-2010, 07:19 PM

The israeli method is the most effective, but makes the least amount of money for a government contractor...

If we did it their way, lines would be shorter and flights would be safer. How is "profiling" more invasive than a pat-down? I guess I'm just old-fashioned and prefer the simpler solution.

filtherton · 11-21-2010, 07:39 PM

I think that the general tendency away from profiling is a natural response to the abhorrent racial profiling that has occurred (and still occurs) in the United States.

Besides, it doesn't seem that implausible that relying on profiling would eventually just lead to pat downs for everyone anyway. If the TSA starts overtly giving extra scrutiny to certain folks, it will become more likely that potential terrorists will attempt to circumvent that scrutiny by deploying folks who don't "fit the description". If these new folks are successful, then a new group joins the list of folks to be scrutinized; if these new folks get caught, then a new group joins the list of folks to be scrutinized. This dynamic will repeat. The tendency will ultimately be towards increased scrutiny for everyone, which will mean, you guessed it, TSA touching all up on you like it's your first time alone on a greyhound bus.

hiredgun · 11-23-2010, 08:49 PM

I tend to think that the entire TSA apparatus as currently implemented is a catastrophic waste of time, attention, and money, for all the reasons that Bruce Schneier has outlined repeatedly in the past several years. The most succinct and compelling reason is this:

Quote:

A short history of airport security: We screen for guns and bombs, so the terrorists use box cutters. We confiscate box cutters and corkscrews, so they put explosives in their sneakers. We screen footwear, so they try to use liquids. We confiscate liquids, so they put PETN bombs in their underwear. We roll out full-body scanners, even though they wouldn’t have caught the Underwear Bomber, so they put a bomb in a printer cartridge. We ban printer cartridges over 16 ounces — the level of magical thinking here is amazing — and they’re going to do something else.

This is a stupid game, and we should stop playing it.

It’s not even a fair game. It’s not that the terrorist picks an attack and we pick a defense, and we see who wins. It’s that we pick a defense, and then the terrorists look at our defense and pick an attack designed to get around it. Our security measures only work if we happen to guess the plot correctly. If we get it wrong, we’ve wasted our money.

To be clear, I believe we'd be just as safe with no enhanced TSA screening whatsoever - just the regular metal detectors, baggage screening, and reinforced cockpit doors.

Shadowex3 · 11-24-2010, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I think that the general tendency away from profiling is a natural response to the abhorrent racial profiling that has occurred (and still occurs) in the United States.

Besides, it doesn't seem that implausible that relying on profiling would eventually just lead to pat downs for everyone anyway. If the TSA starts overtly giving extra scrutiny to certain folks, it will become more likely that potential terrorists will attempt to circumvent that scrutiny by deploying folks who don't "fit the description". If these new folks are successful, then a new group joins the list of folks to be scrutinized; if these new folks get caught, then a new group joins the list of folks to be scrutinized. This dynamic will repeat. The tendency will ultimately be towards increased scrutiny for everyone, which will mean, you guessed it, TSA touching all up on you like it's your first time alone on a greyhound bus.

The Israeli concept of Profiling is different from the american concept that's basically a euphemism for asking yourself "Is he brown?". They rely mainly on behavior:

Quote:

All drivers are stopped and asked two questions: How are you? Where are you coming from?

"Two benign questions. The questions aren't important. The way people act when they answer them is," Sela said.

Officers are looking for nervousness or other signs of "distress" — behavioural profiling. Sela rejects the argument that profiling is discriminatory.

MSD · 11-25-2010, 06:04 PM

Behavioral profiling also requires training and education far beyond what our TSA workers have. Beyond metal detectors, dogs, and truly random screenings you hit a wall of diminishing returns.

Freetofly · 11-25-2010, 07:21 PM

I recently went through Tampa's bodyscanner and then pulled aside. They saw something on my right side. So I got a full pat down, wasn't so bad. What I didn't like was everyone behind me in line was able to watch as this woman fully touched me on every inch of my body. Why not pull me behind a curtain or something a little more private. What they saw were stiches from just having my appendix out. The only real creepy thing about it was the little man behind the wall looking at the scans. For now I feel it keeps us safe, until they figure out a better way.

11-19-2010, 09:53 PM	#3 (permalink)
RogueGypsy Insane Location: The Great NorthWet	I'm not sure about "Israelification' but we definitely need to take a more intelligent approach to security, instead of throwing money at it. I find absolutely nothing comforting or 'secure' about an over paid Rent-A-Cop fondling my testicles. I don't know what the motive behind the scanners is, but security doesn't seem to be it. From what I read, they aren't very effective at detection. It's my understanding that Dogs and other less intrusive methods are far less expensive and more effective. That and to date I believe the number of terrorists discovered with these methods is ZERO. In January I have a trip to Vegas planned. It is my intention to make this worse for them than it is for me. Up to and possibly including: Declining the Porn scanner in favor of the molester pat down, giggling and making 'sexual sounds' during the pat down, sporting the stiffest wood I can manage and eating a bowl of Yogurt before hand (I'm lactose intolerant). I fully intend to do my utmost to end the career of a couple of these Ass hat Rent-A-Cops. I'm not above stripping down to my boxer briefs to facilitate the search either. Maybe I can save a less comfortable passenger from the embarrassment of these invasive procedures. How this bullshit was ever introduced is beyond me. Maybe we should have all of Congress, the Senate, the President and everyone involved in HLS do a walk through on Live TV to show us how 'easy' it is. .. __________________ Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

11-20-2010, 06:24 AM	#8 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	what willravel said. security theater is a farce. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-20-2010, 07:59 AM	#9 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	the only way this 'backlash' has any chance of success is that the people take their complaints to the group of people that created TSA, the legislature. Otherwise, the TSA doesn't give a crap, as is shown by their latest announcement of 'submit to screening or pay the fine'. And this isn't a criminal penalty, it is a CIVIL fine, so you can't defend yourself in court and have it dismissed. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

11-20-2010, 10:54 AM	#10 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	Wow, never seen a thread where so many from differing points of view agree. Not sure if I should be encouraged or scared. For the most part I agree with most of the complaints here but I think bitching about the average TSA employee is really nothing more then shooting the messenger. My guess is over %50 of TSA workers were were working food service type jobs or unemployed prior to being hired. They're probably damn glad to have a job and are trying their best to follow the directions of management. I also think the first time some suicide bomber shoves some C-4 up his ass and takes out a jet full of people then half of all Americans will willingly bend over for a cavity search. Over reaction replaced baseball as the US's favorite pass time a long time ago. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club Last edited by Tully Mars; 11-20-2010 at 10:57 AM..

11-20-2010, 10:58 AM	#11 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I concur with Roachboy and WillRavel. This isn't healthy. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

11-19-2010, 09:46 PM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Security theater is a cruel joke.

11-19-2010, 10:20 PM	#4 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Hahaha...please put that up on youtube.

11-20-2010, 06:12 PM	#16 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I wonder if you can apply specifically to the groper position? I bet recruitment for priesthood just got a lot more difficult.

11-20-2010, 07:52 PM	#17 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	Sorry I think it is a farce and total crap the security we have. We have low wage, poorly trained staff who are responsible for harassing us to death and making he entire airport experience a torture I dread. If you ever go to Israel airport, I was there a few years ago when there was a suspicious bag left behind. It took all of 5 minutes for the entire area to be evacuated, and within 15 minutes the bomb squad had investigated the situation and we were in line. At JFK a similar situation took place and it took over 3 hours. The quality of staff at the airport there, the training, compared to US is night and day. __________________ Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

11-21-2010, 07:13 AM	#18 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	An editorial in my paper started today with the question "When will we finally declare the TSA to be a terrorist organization?" I'm quite glad we only flew once this year, and will probably only fly twice next year. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

11-21-2010, 06:24 PM	#19 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	ya know, i have no problem with being x-rayed, fluoroscoped, whatever, before getting on an airplane, as long as everyone else undergoes the same procedure. saw something on the interweb the other day though that makes a modicum of sense to me, though... airport security.jpg __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

11-21-2010, 07:19 PM	#21 (permalink)
SirLance Junkie Location: In the middle of the desert.	The israeli method is the most effective, but makes the least amount of money for a government contractor... If we did it their way, lines would be shorter and flights would be safer. How is "profiling" more invasive than a pat-down? I guess I'm just old-fashioned and prefer the simpler solution. __________________ DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

11-21-2010, 07:39 PM	#22 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I think that the general tendency away from profiling is a natural response to the abhorrent racial profiling that has occurred (and still occurs) in the United States. Besides, it doesn't seem that implausible that relying on profiling would eventually just lead to pat downs for everyone anyway. If the TSA starts overtly giving extra scrutiny to certain folks, it will become more likely that potential terrorists will attempt to circumvent that scrutiny by deploying folks who don't "fit the description". If these new folks are successful, then a new group joins the list of folks to be scrutinized; if these new folks get caught, then a new group joins the list of folks to be scrutinized. This dynamic will repeat. The tendency will ultimately be towards increased scrutiny for everyone, which will mean, you guessed it, TSA touching all up on you like it's your first time alone on a greyhound bus.

11-25-2010, 06:04 PM	#25 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Behavioral profiling also requires training and education far beyond what our TSA workers have. Beyond metal detectors, dogs, and truly random screenings you hit a wall of diminishing returns.

11-25-2010, 07:21 PM	#26 (permalink)
Freetofly Upright Location: Where ever I land	I recently went through Tampa's bodyscanner and then pulled aside. They saw something on my right side. So I got a full pat down, wasn't so bad. What I didn't like was everyone behind me in line was able to watch as this woman fully touched me on every inch of my body. Why not pull me behind a curtain or something a little more private. What they saw were stiches from just having my appendix out. The only real creepy thing about it was the little man behind the wall looking at the scans. For now I feel it keeps us safe, until they figure out a better way.