Baraka_Guru

Communist Chinese elders promote free speech in open letter - The Globe and Mail

Well, they say with time comes change. But in China's case, it's a bit more complicated than that. The country has seen a surge in economic growth that is changing the very makeup of its society. In a sense it's a developing nation becoming a developed nation. The personal wealth of the Chinese is seeing unprecedented levels. This includes their access to technologies such as computers and the Internet.

In the midst of this, you have a government that clings to communist politics, but having already given way to economic compromise in the form of a mixed economy (introducing capitalist measures to a command economy). Politically, the government remains largely authoritarian, limiting free speech and access to information (read: Google China).

However, among China's elder politicians is a desire for change.

And, of course, there's this: This Nobel prize was bold and right — but hits China's most sensitive nerve | Timothy Garton Ash | Comment is free | The Guardian

What do you think of this? Do you see China's politics moving towards a more moderate socialism in the form of social democracy? How do you see a transition to free speech happening within the ranks? Will free speech lead to other reforms along the lines of human/civil rights?

What is the danger? Will this lead to unrest among the power that be? Is China ready to introduce more personal freedoms among its people?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aceventura3

The Chinese culture is unique, I know that is true by definition, but the Chinese people seem to be wise enough to evolve in a manner consistent with their cultural norms. We are not seeing an abrupt cultural change due to or the desire for economic growth and opportunity as we have seen with other nations throughout history - often these abrupt changes don't work and don't last. China is evolving in accordance to its own rules. I don't see, nor am I aware of a political, economic or social leader with a specific ideology leading the charge for change. I think the developments are positive.

There are not many cultures as obsessed with free speech as the American culture. I imagine most people in China wonder what the big fuss is with the concept of free speech. As living standards in China improve there will be a point where people in the US may have free-er speech, but we will find that it does not translate into tangible economic benefits. Given, the information age and the volumes of useless/incorrect/political driven/etc "free speech", our system of government may become totally impotent. So, China doesn't allow unfiltered Google searches - they seem to be doing o.k. without it.

This is a loaded issue. Are human/civil rights violations worse in China than in the US? I am not sure that is an obvious yes, do you?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Pearl Trade

For a short answer, I think China is heading towards the more moderate socialism you mentioned. I'm basing that theory on current trends, like the economic change they implemented and how the Chinese simply cannot be the superpower they want to be if they remain authoritarian. It will be a very, very long time before they obtain even half the freedoms that Americans enjoy, but it's bound to happen eventually.

Do you think the North Koreans are fine with being brainwashed? Of course they are, they know of nothing else. But if they could taste what freedoms we have, there's no way they would ever go back to what they have in North Korea. If the Chinese could Google whatever they wanted to, I think they would like that much more than having all the searches filtered. I'm talking from the perspective of the people, not the government leaders. That's another issue.

Yes, I think it is obvious that human and civil rights violations are worse in China. In simple terms, Americans have more rights than the Chinese do.

__________________

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

aceventura3

I don't think they are brainwashed. I don't underestimate what people know. I think most people are more concerned about their day to day life than with international politics. With very few exceptions in history one national leader tends not to be much better or worse than another, and most know that - it takes a lot to motivate a nation to engage in a revolt - and in my view most people we may think are "brainwashed" are not and they simply tolerate the leaders they have.

First, looking at people in the lower socio0economic classes of both nations, are there real differences in freedom? Starting with the basics, food, shelter, love, health, what is the difference - pretty minor. At some points we get cable TV with 225 channels most offering the latest greatest product you don't need, and they don't get cable. Does that make us free-er? Does that make our lives better? We get to spend $50,000 on a vehicle to spend 2 hours a day in sitting in traffic, and they don't - big deal! I could go on, but I want to know how you think we are free-er?


Be specific about the differences. In the US gay people can not openly serve in the military. Parents, don't have the freedom to pick the school their child goes to. In Chicago you can not own a gun. We had over two hundred years of race based discrimination, some sanctioned by government.

Then we have the IRS, nothing else need be said.

We have political persecusion - since I am conservative I will use an example liberals will say yea to, but it goes both ways - Valerie Plame - that free speech thing worked well for her. In the US, free speech is not really free is it?

We have women earning a fraction of what men earn for the same work.

We have a select few elites making the rules for everyone - like Bloomberg wanting outlaw, soda for the poor on food stamps - or outlaw salt.

I could go on, but again I am curious about how you think we are free-er.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Pearl Trade

Not brainwashed? Have you seen any pictures or read or swatched anything about North Korea? An international group of doctors took a trip to North Korea for the purpose of fixing an eye problem that plagues the entire country (I think it was cataracts). They were blind until these doctors did a minor surgery on them and made them see. The first thing the Korean did after being able to see was going up to a giant picture of Kim Jong-Ill and praising him. The doctors get no "thanks," only Kim Jong-Ill, who did nothing. Kim Jong-Ill has this crazy cult of personality that requires brainwashing.

We have the option to use those luxuries, a country like North Korea or China does not allow them. Whether it helps anyone or makes lives better is a non-issue. I'd say the health and food issue at the very least is completely different between America and North Korea, maybe China as well. NK has limited food and is very near the bottom of the list when it comes to health.

Why can't parents pick their child's school? If you're talking about public school, you're right, but everyone has the option for private school. If you're Chinese, you can't speak against the government. You can only belong to one of the five state approved religions in China. Extreme internet censorship; where do Americans get all they need: the freedom to use the internet. China has no laws for due process. One child policy (which I support) is a limit to freedom that Americans don't have. China kills more people in capital punishment than the entire world, some crimes aren't even violent. Communist countries have notoriously restricted travel, and China does that to this day. What country has the most journalists in prison? That's right, China. America is way more free than China any way you spin it.

Let's put it this way: would you rather live in America or China, as a citizen?

The Wikipedia page "human rights in the People's Republic of China" has a good summary of what China is up to.

__________________

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

aceventura3

An interesting story, but I am not going to take the position that a whole nation of people are brain washed. I don't support our President's policies and I don't like him based on what I see as duplicitous empty rhetoric used for political power - but I don't say the people who have portraits of him hanging in their living rooms brain washed. Some of these folks could careless about his politics and adore him for other reasons.

We could start a list of the things we don't allow and compare it to the things not allowed in China. Most of those items would be cultural. Many luxury items on the US list are often not affordable to average Americans.

Maybe not to you.

In China the life expectancy is 73. In the US it is 78. North Korea 67. For comparison Switzerland is 82. Zambia is 45. Russia is 67. Canada is 81. India is 63. Brazil is 72. Iraq is 68. Thailand is 68. Cuba is 78. China doesn't seem to be doing to bad

Assuming one can afford it. A middle class working family pays taxes going to public schools and if they wanted to use a private school they often can not afford it - hence many people support vouchers - it is not an option.

My point is that there are two Americas, one for the "rich" and one for everyone else. If we compare China to the America that is available for "everyone else, the differences are pretty small between the two countries.

There have been many people who have paid a price for speaking out against our government. Look at our history. Look at some of the freedom of information materials being released and see the questionable activities of agencies like the FBI. What was all the fuss about during the Bush administration concerning supposed illegal wire taps. Half the nation was fit to be tied.

I love this country and there is no place I would rather be, but I don't pretend that we are perfect. We have issues. At the same time, I am not going to pretend that a nation like China is worse than it actually is - they have issues, but they do some things correctly. I have interacted with people from China - based on those interactions I would never say that they are a nation of brainwashed people or that they are a people who don't enjoy life or have some freedoms similar to those we enjoy.

I read the Wiki page referenced, the US can be considered guilty of many of the same violations or different ones.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Tully Mars

Where did you get these numbers? The CIA World Factbook has NK's LE listed as 170th out of 224 countries and not 67 but rather 63.

CIA Link

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aceventura3

Here is the link: Google - public data

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Cimarron29414

If the same mine accident had occurred in China, rather than Chile, China would have left those people to die...and we would have never heard about it. In China, you are not a person - you are a resource for the collective.

Ace, I'm certain the people of China would disagree with your assessment of their freedoms. Of course, they won't be able to evaluate it - since they aren't allowed to read this web site. That pretty much sums it up. All done here.

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Derwood

I think that as China moves towards a more urban lifestyle, the society will change.

Look at what happened with Japan over the past 60 years

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"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

aceventura3

I consider your point of view here to be extreme. I don't doubt that China would have controlled what was released to the media, but don't forget so soon that our government controlled the information released regarding the Gulf Oil Spill. Our government restricted media access. Our government allowed a material underestimation of the volume of oil spilling to go on for months.

To suggest that China has no consideration for human life is so extreme, I don't know how to respond. Every catastrophic event is unique speculation does not have much value. Again, using the Gulf Oil Spill, our government failed to properly enforce the regulations that could have prevented the loss of life - but I don't make a blanket statement about America having no regard for human life.

Perhaps, some in China think you a brainwashed. So who would be correct? I would say neither. What you know about China is what has been fed to you, and what they know about us is what has been fed to them. I believe most on both sides understand that, don't you understand it?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Baraka_Guru

There have been some interesting responses.

I think I see two extremes that don't seem to jive with my view of China. On the one hand, I don't think the people of China are quite as oppressed or objectified as Cimarron suggests. Though he didn't go enough into detail. There is a lot of crazy shit that goes on, but it's nothing like North Korea. On the other hand, as far as ace's responses are concerned, I don't think American class stratification is nearly as oppressive as Chinese communist politics. Bear in mind that Chinese class stratification is likely far worse than in America.

So what you have in China is a somewhat oppressive communist government, in addition to class stratification based on the changes under economic reform. You have the urban filthy rich, and you have the rural destitute. The thing about China is that it isn't a communist nation. Communism implies complete government control over economy and capital flows. China is a mixed economy. What remains largely communist is its political structure, rather than its economic structure.

What you have is an undemocratic political system. You can vote for whoever you want so long as it's a local council election and it's for a member of the Communist Party of China or its allies. All other elections are done indirectly via your council representatives. They essentially vote for your provincial and national leaders for you.

And of course there's that little problem of not being able to criticize the government. The situation politically is that of a one-party state. But there are concerns over the lack of democracy and freedom of speech, hence the rift happening at top levels.

Despite the way the American government controls information, it is a bit futile to compare it to China in terms of openness, fairness, and balance. There is no comparison. Sure there have been oppressive actions carried out by the American government, but haven't these been cases where "national security" was an issue.

In China, most (if not all) criticisms are considered a case of national security. They arrest people, they prosecute people, they torture people. This despite a constitution saying the people have the right to freedom of speech and freedom of the press.

Chinese politics is dysfunctional on a level that would drive most Americans out of their minds.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aceventura3

The separation in living standards between what you call the urban filthy rich and the rural destitute is not as great as that difference in the US. It is interesting in my view that the hundreds of millions of people in China considered rural and impoverished actually control farm-able land. they may not have access to many of the commercial goods western nations have come to expect, but given access to land that they control they are less dependent on the state than the poor in the US.

Perhaps an alarming trend, similar to what happened in the US with the demise of the family farm, in China rural farmers are loosing control of their farm-able land to corporate interests. This may be a misstep in the context of living standards for the poor as they will grow dependent on government and corporate interests and will only have cheep unskilled labor to offer. This trend is moving at a faster pace than the nations ability to educate the rural poor.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

EventHorizon

what would we have to do if we wanted to initiate a cultural change in china to match ours?

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Does Marcellus Wallace have the appearance of a female canine? Then for what reason did you attempt to copulate with him as if he were a female canine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.

Baraka_Guru

Consider how well known it is in the U.S. that there is a great disparity of wealth. Now consider that the ratio of the top 20% of earners vs. the bottom 20% of earners is greater in China than it is in the U.S. (12.2 vs. 8.4). Even the U.N. has data that shows income inequality as being worse in China.

Despite the control over farmland, I'm not sure this is a good measure for comparison in the U.S. It's my understanding that there are more rural people as a percentage in China than there are in the U.S. (More than half of the Chinese population is rural, vs. less than a quarter in the U.S.)

Anyway, the bottom line is that wealth inequality in China is greater plus the government is oppressive. This is why I don't see comparisons to America as being particularly useful, unless you want to point out the stark differences, with America generally being better off.

Many Chinese have been moving to urban areas to avoid poverty. I think this was a similar trend that happened in North America when the economy advanced and technology modernized (i.e. the shift from industrialized to information-based).

What this will do to the political makeup of China, I'm unsure. I think you can't avoid profound changes on all levels when your economy and society shifts so rapidly.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aceventura3

Measuring living standards by using income can often be misleading.

For example, in order to heat a home in some climates in urban centers, it may require a furnace, meeting code, the cost could be thousands of dollars including installation - allocating those costs over the life of the furnace and the fuel either electricity or natural gas could cost a family in the US $200/$300 per month - we need to net that income to heat our homes. In order to net that amount one may have to earn or have income, @ a 30% tax rate, $260/$390 per month. In an area where a home made wood furnace is used with local materials and fuel collected from local sources using individual labor - the income required to heat a home is $0. The same applies to others examples as well - so it is clear we have to look beyond just income numbers especially when comparing different cultures or countries. Perhaps an easier understood example would be transportation. If a suburban commuter is spending $1,000 per month to get to and from work - when comparing real net income, don't you think we have to adjust for that when comparing it to people of a different culture where the structure of transportation is different or even the urban dweller that can walk to work?

To me it is funny how some people here look at freedom or choice. Sure we can go to our local grocer and select from 50 different varieties of spaghetti sauce, but does that mean we actually have more freedom or more choice? If the answer is yes, does it have any meaning in terms of the quality of life or our living standards?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Baraka_Guru

Um, it's my understanding that when measuring income and determining poverty levels, the cost of living is a part of the calculation.

Also, we're talking about a lot of people here. The top 20% vs. the bottom 20% means a lot of people. This includes urban and rural dwellers. If you start parsing it by considering that some pay as much as $1,000 per month on transportation, you start splitting hairs. If you're paying $1,000 per month for transportation, you are likely plugged into a metropolis with many high paying jobs. If you're paying $1,000 per month on transpiration, you're earning an income that allows you to pay $12,000 on transportation per year and still make a living, otherwise you wouldn't have that job. And the idea of paying $1,000 per month on transpiration would probably shock those who earn $2 per day. The poverty point in China is set at $1.25 per day by the World Bank. But I don't think it matters, I doubt there are many people who can find a way to pay $1,000 per month on transportation unless they really wanted to.

What are you trying to get at, exactly? Tomato sauce is probably the worst measure you've considered.

Are you trying to say that things are better in China than in the U.S.? Should the U.S. adopt a more socialistic/communist system? Or are you saying simply that the average U.S. citizen is as oppressed as the average Chinese citizen?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aceventura3

Without getting into painful details regarding statistical data used to compare different economies, my point is - as a result of cultural differences measuring the quality of life is difficult and prone to many problems when looking at data. Also, keep in mind that the measurements we use are going to be biased toward what we think is important - "we", being western industrial economies.

I am not interested in a discussion of "better", this can never be clearly defined. I simply argue that there are differences. Some people may place great value on being able to choose from 50 varieties of spaghetti sauce, others could careless - you can not say one is better.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Charlatan

Interestingly, I find myself largely in agreement with Ace on his take on China.

Having the experience of living in Asia, you cannot begin to measure people here by the same standards that you do in the US. The enshrinement of personal freedom and free speech, are not prevalent here. You can call it brainwashing but you would be wrong. Brainwashing assumes that there is something "natural" about the desire for personal liberty... a need to put the self before all else. This is as much a cultural conceit as anything else on offer.

Chinese culture (or much of it) is root in other belief systems such as Taoism and Confucianism. These systems, which place an emphasis on family, ancestors and community before the individual create a different approach to life and an individual's place in it.

Looking at Chinese (or any other culture for that matter) through the gauze of American (Western) culture will only allow you to see yourself.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
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roachboy

i have a bunch of friends who are specialists in chinese history. we talk about stuff when we see each other. when it comes to speaking about china, it turns out that i impose grid after grid from other histories. and they tell me that is what i am doing. but it's not like china is wholly Other. it's simple specific in the way everyplace, really, is specific. the situation is either the superficialities that one has operate or they dont, they describe something or they dont. and i simply dont know enough about the history or the system to be able to say much. what i know is that the relation between the party and local economies has never been linear exactly. what i know is that like in any situation really, when you think about it, reality is in the concrete, in the specific and/or particular. it's just that, for me anyway, as a function of my background, i get pushed onto what that means directly when it comes to china. it's not that i have no judgments. its just that i know the shallowness of the information they're based on.

there's no exoticism in this btw. it's simply a history that i dont really know.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Baraka_Guru

I don't want to make the assumption that in China everyone shares the same values. It's a big place; a lot of people live there; they are going through massive changes.

I don't doubt there are many Chinese who have traditional values that are compatible under the current social and political order; however, there must also be a growing contingent of Chinese (likely those who are more educated, more wealthy, etc.) who are experiencing shifting values that are more open to the newer ideas and changes in China rather than the status quo.

If you experience economic changes that offer more freedom and choice in materialistic ways, would this not encourage the desire for more freedom and choice in other avenues?

What if limits on speech prevent people from speaking out against the very things that are viewed as detrimental to the family or to the community?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aceventura3

In your view who defines what is detrimental?

I think, people will revolt/fight/protest/risk life/etc. when they determine a circumstance is "detrimental" making limits on speech a barrier but something they will overcome when motivated. Much of what we consider free speech, is more like - white noise, but real free speech is when one is willing to put something at risk to facilitate change, this is rare.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."