filtherton

The MN state constitution requires balanced budgets. In reality, it just means more accounting gimmicks.

Baraka_Guru

Governing without deficit spending is like running a business without business loans.

Sometimes a business has a profit to reinvest into the company, other times they need to borrow money to do business. Either way, they don't like the idea of derailing their long-term plans because of capital flow problems. They don't close down or hobble themselves simply because the money isn't there at the moment. They take out loans and pay them down once they do have the cash flow.

Governments aren't that much different when it comes to capital flows. The issue is that America has had a difficult time lately. As far as I know, however, America still has a AAA bond rating. It's not that they can't pay their debt; it's that they're not. Bush had a chance to pay it down, but he blew it...on warfare.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dogzilla

And Obama has blown at least as much in just the last two budgets on his giveaways. Based on projections I've seen, the deficit isn't projected to drop below $1 trillion per year until after Obama gets thrown out of office in 2012.

Baraka_Guru

Dollar for dollar, is it better to spend the money on domestic stimulus or on foreign war?

It's also a bit odd to compare the spending applied to the American economy to the spending applied to the Iraq and Afghanistan theatres.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Charlatan

Money spent in the US actually grows the economy. Money spent on bombing or... just giving away cash (billions are unaccounted) in foreign theatres is pissing in the wind.

One can look at collapsed economy after collapsed economy and all of them collapsed due to lack of stimulus spending. The ones that managed to climb out spent their way out by investing their money back into their nations.

The US needs to spend a lot more on itself before this will end.

It's time to invest in infrastructure that will facilitate the growth of business (as highways and hydro electric dams did in the past). It's time to invest in education. The graduates in China and India are ready to work harder and longer with much less than American graduates with similar educations. Etc.


The shit that America is going through now is not new. It's been done before. America's famed cult of individualism isn't going to solve this mess. Me. Me. Me. The only way the US can work this out is to work together for a common cause. Sadly, this will never happen in America as it has in the past. Quite frequently, the US is its own worst enemy.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

dogzilla

It's not an either/or question. Spending for war is justified if it's in the defense of the US. Prior to 2003, the evidence and Saddam's own actions strongly hinted that Iraq had WMD and Saddam was not afraid to use them. Even a number of Democrats supported taking action against Iraq. Bill Clinton had made statements previously that Iraq needed to be dealt with.

Obama's deficit spending has far exceeded what Bush spent on a year to year basis. If Obama keeps up his stupid stimulus programs the deficit attributable to him will be at least double what Bush accumulated.

The line that 'Bush did it so Obama can't is getting a little worn out. Surely Obama is more than a reincarnation of George Bush.

I don't agree with much of what Beck has to say, but on deficit spending, he is dead on. There is no way a nation can borrow it's way to prosperity at the tune of more than a trillion dollars per year.

Baraka_Guru

That's more or less what I'm getting at, Charlatan. If the U.S. wants to fix its most serious problems, it will need to think long and hard about dismantling the empire and building a functional nation with today's globalized realities.

It's not an either/or question, I agree. However, the net effect of one vs. the other reveals stark differences. The stimulus spending is a domestic infusion of wealth that will have a direct impact on the economy, no matter how short term. The spending on theatres of war has an impact as well, but much of that wealth disappears almost immediately and much of it flows to a relatively few hands. And the aftermarket isn't something most people want to think about, because much of that relates to health care for broken veterans.

War is big business. The money spent on it isn't money that leads to long-term prosperity. But that's not the purpose of war, and it's up for debate as to whether it was necessary to "deal with" Iraq and whether the methods suited the situation.

I understand the concern about the amplitude of the spending overall, but the deficit amount isn't something one can easily pin on Obama completely. He came into office to take on two theatres of war, the fallout of a sub-prime mortgage crisis, and one of the worst downturns in the global economy. Couple that with a bloated, post–Cold War military; a series of tax cuts established by the previous president; a dysfunctional finance industry; a general population with a record-low (i.e. negative) savings rate and deplorable debt-to-asset ratios; and it still being less than a decade since the most horrific domestic terrorist attack in American history.

Obama came into office to find himself in the eye of a perfect storm. America's dealing with a really shitty series of events and circumstances. Even if Obama chalks up the largest deficit of any term of presidential office ever, it shouldn't come as much of a surprise. Look at other presidencies and tell me how many of them had such challenges—all at once.

This is missing the point. And if Beck is really saying that, then he doesn't understand the economics behind it, or he's being disingenuous. (As an aside, I find it interesting how he goes on about investing in gold when it's currently priced at the highest level in history. I know this is his "sky is falling" response to America's fiat currency, but seriously....)

Deficit spending is never about "spending yourself to prosperity." No one in their right mind thinks that borrowing money to buy goods and services is doing so for the sake of prosperity. This is what the financially ignorant thinks, and I highly doubt the Obama administration thinks this is possible. If the situation were different, and the economy were better, Obama wouldn't likely have set up the same stimulus packages, nor would he likely spend as he is now in general.

Deficit spending is about biting the bullet and taking it like a man (sorry for the lame metaphor). Obama warned Americans about tough times. He never promised this was going to be easy.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

boink

so how do we offset the Oligarchs stealing more than a trillion a year ?

ya don't think maybe he and his buddies (or masters) own a bunch of gold and want him to keep inflating a bubble ? just acting as a shill to bilk his flock of tards just like the real estate market ?

__________________
when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

Baraka_Guru

Well, it's like this:

Although Beck is open about it, he is a celebrity endorser for Goldline International, a precious metals trading company. He does commercials with them and he has banner ads for them on his website. He's even had the CEO on his show, but he does a full disclosure...but still.

Goldline sponsors his show along with a number of other conservative radio and television shows.

So it's basically a strategic alliance involving advertising, endorsements, and sponsorships. That pretty much makes certain aspects of Beck's program an infomercial or advertorial or whatever you'd call it.

He benefits from pushing gold. It lines his pockets....with gold eventually, I'm sure.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Tully Mars

Actually I'd say what we have now, and have had for many, many years, is a bunch of borrow and spend politicians.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Charlatan

Here's the thing to remember... it wasn't Roosevelt's stimulus that brought the US out of the depression. His spending, as great as it was, was not enough. The US was in a situation very similar to the one it finds itself in now -- people are complaining that running a deficit will not fix the problem and they were shouting for the government to stop spending.

What it took to get the US out of the depression was a lot *more* spending. It took the massive (even by today's standards) deficit and increase of the debt that financed WWII -- the biggest stimulus spending ever -- to get the US back on track.

While spending more may seem like folly, it is likely the only medicine that will work. Cutting stimulus now could be cutting your own throats.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Tully Mars

We've been digging this hole for a long time. We've spent most of that time pounding our chests and chanting "USA, we're #1!" I'm not even sure a WWIII would bring us out of it at this point. Mainly because no one wants to sacrifice any more. A lot of folks we're fine with the Iraq war because they were told not would it not costs them anything but they didn't actually have to make any changes to their lifestyles. In WWII everyone rallied around the cause, well most everyone. My dad tells me there were folks that didn't support it, but they were few and far between. People worked 12, or more, hour shifts at manufacturing plants, food and gas was rationed. People bought war bonds to help fund the cause. And millions joined the military.

Today most people aren't willing to actually give up anything. We've allowed our politicians dig us into a economic hole and any politician that suggests part of the solution is going to have an effect on your personal lifestyle is dead in the water and unelectable.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Baraka_Guru

The average person today doesn't know the true meaning of personal sacrifice. We've built a society that prides itself on having the power to instantly fulfill desires, whether or not it's a good idea (personal credit spending). When you hear the stories of how our grandparents and great-grandparents sacrificed their lives (both literally and figuratively), they now sound like legends or deep history---we don't have to do anything like that because they made that sacrifice already.

Well you know what? The shit hit the fan. How are we going to get over the fact that we can't always get what we want? Previous generations did without if they didn't have the cash. Many of us today get now and pay later, even if it costs twice as much by the time it's actually paid for. This has gone on too long and now we're hurting. We owe too much. But that doesn't stop us from wanting things. So there's this disconnect between what we want and our means to get it. And since we're so used to getting what we want, our little hearts are breaking when we don't get it. Doing without is new to a lot of people, and perhaps they would like to blame someone other than themselves.

This is where I point to the T. S. Eliot quotation in my signature below.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dc_dux

Thats not quite true. The Bush/Republican medicare prescription drug reform enacted in 2004 is projected to add over $1 trillion over ten years and the 2001/2003 tax cuts, particularly on the top bracket, adding nearly another $1 trillion. Bush also kept the Iraq war off budget, so it wouldnt count towards annual deficits.

But putting that aside, McConnell unveiled the Senate Republican tax plan earlier this week.

It would make permanent all of the Bush tax cuts that were set to expire this year and limit the estate tax to those over $5 million ($10 million/couple)....as opposed to only extending the tax cuts for the middle class.

The CBO hasnt scored it yet, but a somewhat similar proposal scored by the CBO would mean $4 trillion in lost revenue over ten years......four times the projected deficit impact of the health care reform and stimulus bill combined.

Deficits result not only from increased spending, but equally from reducing revenue.

Yet, the Republicans argue with a straight fact that cutting $4 trillion in revenue wont result in significant deficits or accumulated debt.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

roachboy

the problem with comparisons with fdr really is that the geography of capitalism is very different from how it was in the 1930s-1940s. it is not at all clear that a nation-state scale war, a world war, would function in the same way to jack up production levels as it did in then.

i think that the states needs more social-democratic policy and more inventive social-democratic policy in order to even begin getting out of the hole neo-liberalism has sunk in the belly of the beast itself.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Baraka_Guru

Well, it's odd to think about it that way, because if you account for inflation, the U.S. is spending as much on the military as it was during WWII. However, expressed as a percentage of GDP, it's quite different (15 to 35% of GDP during WWII vs. under 5% of GDP today).

It could be argued that the social democratic aspects of the Canadian economy acted as a stabilizing force during this recession.

Our five biggest banks (representing the lion's share of Canadian banking) have remained profitable the whole time---well, more than that: I think most of them have been reporting record profits. Now Canada's banking system is being looked at as a model to the world. What's the big deal? Regulation.

Canada's economy is a prime example of a mixed economy, where private ownership is the norm, but some industries have either minimal or major public ownership. The public ownership is used to ensure certain standards are met. Otherwise, the economy is subject to government regulations that have been established to ensure fair competition, consumer safety, safe and fair working conditions, etc.

Though most think in absolute terms (capitalism vs. socialism), it is best to understand the Canadian economy as a market economy with extensive public ownership and reasonable regulatory practices, which essentially means that there are many government businesses and agencies that act within this market economy.

It's about providing balance to the practice of capitalism. If left unchecked, it tends to stomp on people.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

well, i'm in the middle of something in meat-space at the moment so will only say what's historically obvious (but apparently not so much in the vacuum of us conservative politics these days)---there's no contradiction between capitalism and democratic socialism. the latter is a policy direction that stabilizes the former in particular directions which are shaped by particular conceptions of what outcomes are socially desirable. american conservatives apparently support class war. they may pretend it's something else, but it isn't. so they endorse policies that exacerbate class war. social democrats tend to think class war destabilizing. for example.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Tully Mars

You don't understand the US at all. It's all or nothing. It's back or white, red state or blue, conservative or liberal. It's all right or wrong and whatever side you're on... it's the other sides that's wrong.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Baraka_Guru

Exactly. Social democracy has no desire to dismantle the capitalist system or to foment a socialist revolution. (This is exactly why so many socialists criticize it.) Many Americans don't understand this. They see socialism and immediately think anti-capitalism (read: anti-freedom).

It is. You recently posted poverty numbers in the U.S. somewhere. It think the number was 1 in 7 (1 in 5 children). Depending on the measure, Canada's poverty rate is 1 in 10 (low-income cutoff, aka LICO) or 1 in 20 (basic-needs poverty). So while Canada does have challenges with regard to poverty, there isn't this same sense of class war within our politics. Even if our conservatives try to align with neo-liberalism, they usually have a countering force to answer to.

This is the problem. It's also ridiculous because the reality is that the U.S., in practice, isn't so cut and dried. As mentioned elsewhere, even Reagan adopted "socialist" policies. People need to be reasonable.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Wes Mantooth

I know and I would find it a lot more comical if it didn't have such a negative impact on the world we live in. Its amazing how even the most intelligent of people have pulled the political discourse in this country down to the level of sports fans arguing about an upcoming game between two rivals.

The other side is ALWAYS wrong and my side is ALWAYS right. Like some childish game of cops and robbers where everything needs to be defined in terms of good vs evil because they don't understand anything else. Maybe if we stopped turning politics into entertainment people might be more apt to see the shades of gray and put country before party but as long as the team mentality is pushed on us it will never change.

__________________

Tully Mars

You don't have to look any further then the likes of Charles Rangel to see this effect. And yes he's just one guy but IMO he's a classic example of "whatever my side does is acceptable." And you can find limitless examples on both the right and left. But Rangel's a guy who even though he's the Chairman of the House Committee on Ways and Means couldn't figure out out to pay his taxes and was somehow living in several rent controlled apartments at once. Even he admits he failed to report income on a rental property.... but it was an accident. He didn't mean to... bull shit. Isn't it odd these guys never accidentally over pay their fair share? If you're in a leadership role regarding taxes I think you should make damn sure you're not involved with anything that even looks like it might be wrong.

To me he's one of many that leaving me shaking my head and thinking how bad to you have to be before your own side says no more, you're fired. But I think the US voters have become so much like a sports fan, as Wes points out, that as long as you're on my team I'll vote for you.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Wes Mantooth

Thats why it always seemed like a joke to me too. Partisan politics to me is no different then religious fundies sitting in church and patting each other on the back for being more righteous then everyone else. They see nothing else but their communities view of the world and will argue that their way is the only one right and true path to salvation...everyone else is just 100% wrong, always will be and there is simply no room for any other interpretation. They are the enemy.

Meanwhile Pastor Rangel is stealing money from the collection plates and bake sales to pay for prostitutes, cars and vacation homes. And what does the brain washed congregation do? They flock to him, apologize for him and pretend that he's still an okay fellow, it was a mistake, because he was their leader and to admit flaws might mean they are wrong about something.

We need more parties and options, badly. REALLY, REALLY badly.

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Tully Mars

Agreed... but I give it less a then 5% chance of that happening in my lifetime. If it does happen it will likely be the result of some really ugly, nasty event. Something that makes WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and both Gulf Wars look like happy fun time at summer camp. Einstein once said "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Until some event like that happens the US will be happy yelling at the "other" side and we'll keep digging a deeper hole. Hey, maybe if we dig long enough we'll reach China. Least then we could visit our money.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

aceventura3

First there is no "The Tea Party". It is a movement made up of lots of people and some people have formed factions and those factions have agendas. So when we say "The Tea Party" supports - it is difficult to respond to clearly.

In my view, Castle was out of touch, ran a poor campaign and got defeated, the race was his to win. it was the local voters who made the choice - most of those voter probably could care less about "The Tea Party".

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Wes Mantooth

I don't know Tully, I agree that it will take some kind of massive shift in our society to get the ball rolling but it very well could also come from something as simple as one to many political scandals or simply electing a string of out of touch, incompetent Presidents. The American public isn't as stupid as it lets on sometimes and they are only going to put up with the same bullshit for so long (the aproval rating for congress is abysmal right now for example). A well run campaign by a third party that represents common sense and not wacky ideology complete with a rock star like candidate might do pretty well even in todays political climate.

__________________

Derwood

There are "Tea Party Candidates", thus there must be a Tea Party, no? If there are just a bunch of individuals with varying agendas, how can someone claim to be a representative (read: candidate) for the movement?

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

aceventura3

I said it was difficult. Understand that the brand, Tea Party, is not owned by anyone, but it has value. Hence people will use it, some of those people have agendas that go beyond original Tea Party principles.

I think if a person's starting premise is that conservatives are stupid, or mindless followers, etc, a person won't understand what I am pointing out.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Tully Mars

Seems like we've been there soooooo many times. Everything from the Bull Moose Party to Perot to the current Tea Party. Maybe someday people will wake up. But so far all I've seen is bumper stickers of "Throw the bums out!" "Clean house... and Senate." Yet the same people, like Ol'Charlie, keep getting re-elected.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

ASU2003

I may have filled out the form to do that last may...


But, if I tried to run as a Tea Party Candidate, there would be someone in the upper levels of the organization who would rally the people against me. And I am sure there are some controls as to who can run as the tea party candidate in the primary. You wouldn't want 5 tea party members running and one centrist-GOP guy. There would be too much vote splitting...

The thing I am really surprised about was that O'Donnell went on Bill Maher's TV show 12 years ago... All I can say is she is consistent. She's crazy with extreme unbendable moral values, but she looks pretty.

Wes Mantooth

Very true...you'd think it would have come years ago wouldn't you? I think one problem we do have is often third parties are trying to fill a niche rather then speak to the masses and in turn grab a very small percentage of votes and simply sputter out due to lack of support. I wonder what would happen if somebody with the charisma of an Obama ran on third party ticket aimed directly at swing voters and moderates, throw in a slew of congressional candidates running across the US and you might have something. Have we had something like that...ever?

__________________

Tully Mars

No, not to my knowledge. I think the problem is money. It simply takes money to be taken seriously in the US. That's how Perot got as far as he did it. He bought a of 1/2 hour TV time to inform people of his agenda. But he had (has?) the money to do that on his own. I remember watching his TV ad and thought "you know he makes a lot of sense." Then he went to a debate and sounded like a lunatic.

The tea party today is also well funded. The Koch brothers, Dick Army, Steve Forbes and FreedomWorks pour a lot of money in and it wouldn't have gotten this far without that cash.

I'd really like to see some rational third party group get people on ballots across the country. Without the cash it's just not going to happen. I mean face it the only thing that's going to bring the GOP and the Dems together is a threat to more of the same.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Derwood

Glenn Beck Lies | The Glenn Beck Report

for those who asked for a list of Beck's lies

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

Tully Mars

Oh those can all be easily explained.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Derwood

SATIRE!!!

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

Tully Mars

If only.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

ottopilot

For all of you seemingly so obsessed with Glenn Beck (for what-ever reason), perhaps take a few minutes to read an article from this past New York Times Magazine "Being Glen Beck" By MARK LEIBOVICH. It's a fairly objective piece considering it's from the NY Times.

It's not a necessarily flattering piece, but I think it's portrays Beck in a more honest light rather than simply a villain or a saint.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

roachboy

o beck is really just another dissociative rightwing gasbag in the employ of fox comedy news. the nytimes piece is kinda interesting about that & his relations with faux news more generally. roger ailes seems snippy that beck is not more "grateful." other faux news people think beck creates the impression (or reveals the fact, depending on your viewpoint) that faux news as a news organization is a joke.

it is an interesting piece.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Baraka_Guru

Whether or not Beck takes himself seriously, or whether he does things on whims and thinks on the fly, is of little consequence to his net effect. He has influence, and I think far too many people take him seriously. I wouldn't be surprised if many of his viewers look to him as one of their primary sources for news and current events. That's a problem.

That and he harps on about the importance of investing in gold. I think that's a bad idea. 1) No one should ever take investment advice from a television program, 2) gold is at a record high after a surge in price. It can be argued that a bubble is still a long way off, or that a bubble isn't even the case. Regardless, buying gold now is quite possibly buying gold at the top. If you don't think gold prices are cyclical and susceptible to ups and downs, then you need to learn how to read a chart.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot