ottopilot

and your point is... ?

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"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

roachboy

really, all this blah blah blah socialism blah blah blah from the right is about red-baiting. good old fashioned all fascist american red-baiting. and it's no surprise given that the daddy of the koch brothers founded the john birch society.

what's a bit more surprising is discovering that despite the myriad economic catastrophes caused by conservative economic ideology that people still repeat it as if it has anything to say about the way out of the current mess we're still in. it's more a map of the ways of thinking that caused alot of the mess. but the right has somehow managed to persuade itself that it's not linked to the policies of the bush administration or to the history of the new ultra-right since the reagan period. go figure.

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Derwood

that Obama is right of center, just like most of us have been saying

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"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

ottopilot

translation:
liberal social progressivism = good
conservative capitalism = bad
... that sound about right?

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"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Derwood

i believe that's roachboy's personal opinion, yes. Doesn't mean you're not entitled to yours

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"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

roachboy

not exactly otto.

translation: the economic ideology you rehearse is responsible for the disastrous economic reality all around us--so why should anyone take it--and by extension you, since you choose to repeat it---seriously at all?

and it makes no sense that anyone would vote for candidates who espouse exactly the ideology that is responsible for this mess---they'd be the last people capable of fashioning ways to address it.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ottopilot

So as long as it's different, then it's better? Which economic ideology do I practice? The one where I don't live beyond my means? Where I plan and budget for the care and welfare of my family? Donate my time, talent, and hard earned money in the service of others in need? Are we talking about that economic ideology? If so, then yes. And I expect our leadership to honor their office by ruling with these similar basic values.

How does that fit into your world of stereotypes?

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

ASU2003

That economic theory is fine, and I wish the government lived within it means and taxed people the right amount when it needs the money, instead of lowering taxes to boost the economy and then say that is the new standard.

The problem I have with Beck and the conservative tea party is that I am afraid of them lowing taxes for corporations and the upper 10%, while sitting by while the rest of America turns into Detroit and they don't care. Now if the Libertarian tea party led by Ron Paul took office, or a Green tea party that would really lead to personal freedom from government and corporations, that would be another story.

ottopilot

Ah... a consensus! So Hitler, Stalin, all conservatives, the Green Party, Gandhi, and Obama all got together and filled out a questionaire? No doubt labcoats and clipboards were involved.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Tully Mars

Thread seems to have taken yet another turn.

Derwood, what is the source for your graphs?

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Derwood

i'll dig up the links. The bottom one was from a site that came out around the time of the 2008 primaries. It asked you to answer a battery of questions about a variety of social, economic and policy issues, then plotted you on a graph based on your answers. The graph I showed had real politicians plotted based on where THEY stood on the given issues

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

Baraka_Guru

Yes, and we'll know nothing about Obama until he fills out a questionnaire for us.

Hitler, Stalin, and Ghandi are dead. So we'll never know their stance on anything. Pity.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dc_dux

I am still trying to get past this:

..."the investigative accuracy and persistence from the likes of Beck and Andrew Breitbart. With their limited resources, they've produced some amazing investigative reporting..."

Otto, I guess I was asleep again and missed the insightful, honest and objective reporting of these two intrepid "journalists."

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Baraka_Guru

We all know this isn't entirely the case, and even Beck has admitted as much. These are commentators, not journalists whose modus operandi is objective reporting. Beck has admitted that. Calling commentators journalists is like calling columnists journalists.

Beck would like to believe he's being insightful and honest, but he knows he's not being as objective as a journalist. Let's call a spade a spade.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ottopilot

He frequently admits they are not journalists and routinely begs for investigative reporters to look in to the things they uncover. He maintains an open challenge to prove him right or wrong on a topic. If wrong, he will lead with the correction. They also created a direct phone line for the White House to call with corrections.

Again... there's frequent references here to Beck's honesty. And again and again it turns out that these claims are emotionally driven rather than factual. It's OK to dislike someone deeply. But perpetuating the perception that someone is dishonest doesn't make it so without substantiaton. You are entitled to to your opinions.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Tully Mars

I read that and really just assumed why bother. When dealing with people who think beck et el are accurate, insightful or honest it's pretty much a lost cause I think.

I mean using Beck's logic and caulk board I could connect the hail bop comet, the ice age and the idiots on the "Jersey Shore" to the raise and fall of Obama's poll numbers.

But his "believers" seem to eat it up with a "wow, that's so true!" awe about them.

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Cimarron29414

Anyone who believes Libertarianism is equivalent to Anarchy is too ignorant to debate.

As soon as I saw that graph, I disregarded it...as all others should.

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"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Tully Mars

So what about telling people he checked and no other Potus had ever been sworn in on anything but a bible? Or claiming CO2 wasn't a poison? What about the simply fact he stated Walters approached him when he in fact approached her... something he himself admitted wasn't true?

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

ottopilot

Well... you are a sleepy-head. There's time to catch up.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Tully Mars

Well I think taken to an extreme it could become anarchy just as authoritarian societies could become fascists.

I'd still like to know the sourse or study behind the graphs but I wouldn't dismiss them entirely over that wording.

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roachboy

otto---it's always a pleasure to see you trying to dress up your projection-based relationship to "journalists" like glenn beck or breitbart as if they are somehow based on something else, laughable fictions like journalism or integrity. what these two buffoons have in common, though, is that they allow people like you to float in the warm yellow liquid of a sense of solidarity and to imagine yourself a bubble of foam amongst lots of others, all cozy and nice and together against those mean nasty socialists/liberals/progressives/terrorists/devils/pinkos blah blah blah. shame about the metal handle overhead. someday someone's going to pull it.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ottopilot

I don't believe I said Beck is always accurate. He's as human as anyone. He consistantly makes corrections for errors. A lie requires the intent of deception. However, in your dismissive statement, it's evident that you have no first-hand basis for your opinion. Is it your intent to be inaccurate or are you just content with sources that are emotionally appealling?

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Tully Mars

You're defending Beck and his antics and you think it's possibly my intent to be inaccurate or content with sources that are emotionally appealing?

Do you own any mirrors?

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

ottopilot

Wow... that must be big-boy talk. You want to break any of that down and talk about it? I'm sorry to dare challenge all the neat stereotypes and stray outside the group-think. It's the same on conservative forums... don't dare dispute the broad brush. It pisses them off too.

---------- Post added at 02:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

Yes and yes... I can provide complete mirror inventory. I noticed you haven't answered the question.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

roachboy

no worries, otto. i expect your dissonance filters would have treated almost anything that doesn't square with your view of the world in the same way.

but poor you, subject to all these unpleasant stereotypes because the media characters you defend are obvious charlatans. poor you that the deep Thinking hidden behind all these one-dimensional and fatuous sentences you write isn't appreciated. the indignity of it all.

but it all that from your informational world. but frankly, once we move beyond the tenuous interest of these "debates" that never ever go anywhere, it's really of no consequence to me what you choose to fill your little head with. enjoy your favorite charlatans and chimeras and whatever patterns of repeating exactly what you're told to repeat floats your boat.

btw if you have trouble with the big-boy speak, move your lips when you read. go slow and you'll be fine. i have faith in you, otto. always have.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Tully Mars

Oh, I get it you make a quip about my "dismissive statement" and expected a serious response to yours.

Umm, ok...


So, according to you Beck has "investigative accuracy and persistence" but you never meant to imply he's always accurate? Yet you acknowledge that he himself states he's not a journalists. Sure that all makes sense. Now go ahead and break out Beck's caulk board logic and show me how these statements are compatible.

No wonder you like Beck your logic goes in as many, if not more, circles then his.

How is my "first hand knowledge" any more or less lacking then yours? And seriously Beck's whole act is being emotionally appealing. Even brings him to tears on a occasion.

This is nothing more then the old "yeah what he said wasn't true but he didn't really mean (or know) it was untrue defense, ergo no lie." It's a BS defense and if people used it to defend the likes of Micheal Moore I seriously doubt you'd believe it for one second.

You think he told people he checked and no other POTUS hadn't used an bible to take the oath of office accidentally? Or did he accidentally forget he didn't really check? Personally think his intent was to incite as many Christians as he could by inferring Obama is not like them, he's not a Christian and you should be fearful of him.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

dippin

Beck doesn't lie?

So you mean that Rockefeller was indeed a communist mastermind that created the rockefeller center as a massive tribute to global communism, and that his one world communism agenda has been picked up and is being promoted today by the UN, George Soros and Barack Obama?

Baraka_Guru

It's not meant to be read as anarchy = libertarianism or vice versa, nor is it meant to say that authoritarianism = fascism (or vice versa) or left = communist, right = neoliberal, etc., you get the point.

It's generally stating that moving into the realm towards pure anarchy is what libertarianism does, whereas moving into the realm towards fascism is what authoritarianism does. These things work in degrees, not absolutes. That's how you get libertarian socialists who are by no means outright anarchists.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dc_dux

otto:

Please provide some examples of the amazing investigative reporting of Beck and Breitbart.

It should be enlightening or at least entertaining.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Derwood

The Political Compass - Test

that should get you an answer to where YOU fit on that graph

here's mine:

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

Tully Mars

That shows how you scored... how or who came up with the scores for the other people you posted?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Derwood

presumably the people at the site took the test using each politician's viewpoints

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

mixedmedia

anyone ever heard of this?

someone tells a lie (with intent and possibly even through mass media channels)

it's proven to be a lie (maybe even the liar invites people to expose the lie because they are so cocky, uh, I mean ethically, politically and financially disposed to the truth)

but people continue (prefer) to believe the lie even though the truth has been told

that never really happens, does it?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

filtherton

The phrase "death panels" comes to mind.

mixedmedia

yeah, or how about 'Swift Boaters'
that's a real blast from the past

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

roachboy

"trickle-down economics"
i like that one.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Tully Mars

I've always been fond of "Al Gore claims he invented the internet." Which of course wasn't true yet many Cons to this day believe and repeat it.

---------- Post added at 10:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 AM ----------

Ok, well really then without further info on who created the profiles for people and really how the test was created and by whom it doesn't seem like a very credible source. From the web site you link all I could find was it's a product of "Pace News Limited" which seems to be an on-line newspaper out of L.A. started in 1995. I really don't know much about them. Do you?

It might be more credible then I've been able to verify. For all I know it was created by the political science dept. of some highly regarded university and the profiles entered by credible historians. But it seems like if that were the case they'd have a banner on the page stating such and they don't.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Derwood

Fair enough. I'm sure if I dug deeper I'd find more websites of that kind that might give more info on how they did things. I'll see what I can find

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

Tully Mars

Like I said the test and the data it presents maybe more credible then I've been able to verify. Simply without knowledge of how or who actually did it it's impossible to say, IMO.

I will tell you one of the reasons I quickly questioned it was, much like Cimarron, I glanced at it and immediately thought "that doesn't seem right." I had different questions then him(?) but still had questions. Mainly how does the "Green party" and Nader score closer to libertarians then authoritarians? I mean IMO Nader and the "Green Party" are very interested in telling people how they should live. They want all kinds of control, don't they?

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

roachboy

or this, just in case you imagine there's a bottom to the stupidity that conservatives feel authorized to say:

Gingrich: Obama?s ?Kenyan, anti-colonial? worldview - The Corner - National Review Online

so to the extent that this latest bit of gringrichiana makes any sense at all, he's saying that---somehow---obama is connected to the mau-mau---which is a fucked up way of---i think----calling him a "terrorist" in modern parlance.

this is quite possibily the most idiotic statement i have seen from anyone in public life ever.

for an overview of the puzzlement it's generated:

Gingrich: President Exhibits 'Kenyan, Anticolonial Behavior' - NYTimes.com

it's hard to know what else to say about this.
sheesh.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite