06-03-2010, 12:46 PM | #161 (permalink) |
People in masks cannot be trusted
Location: NYC
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A country has a right to defend itself, if they are constantly under rocket fire, over 10000 since 2005. And the video I posted earlier and I have seen all show the soldiers being attacked upon boarding the ship. That does not take in to account the fake videos of people being injured found on the ship, almost a million euro, and other facts that do not add up yet. Instead we all jump in and scream instead of waiting for the facts to piece together a whole picture.
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06-03-2010, 12:55 PM | #163 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ohio
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How does any of that justify piracy and murder again?
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06-03-2010, 12:58 PM | #164 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Don't individuals have a right to protect themselves from being fired upon and boarded in international waters?
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
06-03-2010, 01:01 PM | #165 (permalink) | ||
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You've clearly made up your mind on the issue without all the facts. Please do everyone the courtesy of following your own advice. |
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06-03-2010, 01:21 PM | #166 (permalink) | |||
Psycho
Location: My House
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you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes. |
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06-03-2010, 01:40 PM | #167 (permalink) | |
Her Jay
Location: Ontario for now....
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Or is this like the "activists" where you're really saying they're terrorists yet hiding behind the quotation marks so if anyone calls oyu on it you can make something up to defend it without actually showing any proof what so ever to prove your claims. |
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06-03-2010, 01:46 PM | #168 (permalink) |
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Idyllic:
You might want to do more research into the history of Zionism. It's actually a very new idea compared to the long history of Judaism, and until WWII was largely regarded as a dangerous and unsanctified heresy. A significant portion of the Orthodox/Hasidic Jewish population -still- defines Zionism in those terms. Check these guys out: True Torah Jews Against Zionism They go into far more detail than I can here, but suffice it to say that until very recently, the political re-occupation of the Holy Land by the Jews was seen as effrontery to God: "We get the land back when the Messiah -gives- it back. Until then, it's not ours to give OR TAKE" was the essence of mainstream Jewish teaching until Theodore Herzl came along and turned 1800-ish years of Jewish tradition regarding the Holy Land on its' head. Edited to add: I would have been all in favour of the Jews being given, say, Germany. Japan. Any piece thereof. Maybe Vichy France. The Germans and Japanese, after all, started the whole beastly mess and surrendered unconditionally after engaging in a series of war-crimes and crimes against humanity which have since set the standard for atrocity and scale of mass murder. The terms of the Treaty Of Versailles were ridiculous and unfair, but the problem of this humiliation was much worsened by the fact that Germany and Germans were allowed to believe that they had not been defeated. Japan, in particular, could probably do with the sorts of improvements that would have come at that point with the arrival of several hundred thousand armed and very pissed-off settlers supported by the US military. I'm sure Stalin would have been happy to get the Soviet Jews off his hands as well. Maybe the creation of something like Israel in the land of people who actually had it coming would have convinced the Japanese that after being caught raping entire cities, and after having had two cities vaporised, they were this time going to learn to goddamnedbehaveorelse. This would include, among other things, not erecting statues of generals responsible for horrors such as Nanking, along with bothering to teach their schoolchildren more about WWII (and how the Japanese Empire came to be involved) than just "there was a war, and then the Americans dropped two horrible atomic bombs and killed lots and lots of innocent people." Last edited by The_Dunedan; 06-03-2010 at 06:45 PM.. |
06-03-2010, 01:58 PM | #169 (permalink) | |
Crazy, indeed
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This is more of the ridiculous binary thinking: if you are against the eviction without recourse of Palestinians, the establishment of Jewish-only roads, the restriction of Palestinian access to water, and a blockade that keeps even basic necessities out, then you must be for terrorism and the destruction of Israel. Of course, that is bullshit, but apparently some people refuse to move beyond that. Last edited by dippin; 06-03-2010 at 02:02 PM.. |
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06-03-2010, 08:50 PM | #172 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 06-03-2010 at 08:53 PM.. |
06-04-2010, 03:40 AM | #173 (permalink) | |
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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06-04-2010, 07:12 AM | #174 (permalink) |
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Location: Ventura County
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Given three categories:
One, those who are concerned about the about Palestinian people, their needs and rights. Two, those who are concerned about the Palestinian people, their needs and rights - also with a dislike of Israel and the way Israel is handling the issue. Three, those who simply hate Israel and want it eliminated off of the face of the earth. I think most people involved with running the blockade fit into categories one and two. However, and I don't know what portion, there are some in category three. Category three is the problem. Category three is the reason there was violence. Given an old, passive, toothless dog, if you trigger the survival response (SR), violent action will result. Worse, if you have young, testosterone loaded males, with guns, trained to kill and SR's are triggered, people will die and get hurt. Reasonable people have to consider this question - Are my odds of avoiding death and the death of others increased or decreased by triggering the SR's or heightening the SR's in those being confronted? Who lead these people? What was their intent? Goal? What did they think would happen? Were they actually surprised by the result? I can understand young and naive people getting caught up in the moment and doing unwise things, but I can not understand those who would lead others into this without clearly explaining the risks. If the risks were known, the innocent are not so innocent. If the risks were not known, I don't know what to say about that, but they know now.
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06-04-2010, 07:24 AM | #175 (permalink) | |
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no, ace. that's not the problem. your imaginary 3rd category of people who you imagine were on an imaginary version of the flotilla. this is much more accurate as an explanation for the problem:
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o yeah, the rachel corrie is due to get to israeli waters in about 24 hours. israel is trying to get the ship to go to ashdod. the rachel corrie has no plans of making any stops other than gaza. Israel: We don't want a confrontation with Gaza-bound ship 'Rachel Corrie' - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News so this ain't over.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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06-04-2010, 07:30 AM | #176 (permalink) |
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Israel's current government leaders are also nervous about maintaining
their 'don't ask, don't tell' position regarding their nuclear weapons, & NPT status. But that could & probably should be a topic for another thread. Last edited by ring; 06-04-2010 at 09:05 AM.. Reason: forgot leaders |
06-04-2010, 07:35 AM | #177 (permalink) | |
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What is your explanation for the excessive risk taken by those running the blockade? Do you think they did not expect there was risk? There are many simple core questions that are not being addressed in my view - when I give thought to theses questions, I can only conclude, the matter was staged. And to be clear, just because it was staged is not a judgment on it being "good" or "bad", that is another question. "staged" events can deliver results, but it is what it is. I think we can be honest and call things what they actually are, and if we do that we (not you and me but everyone interested in resolving conflict in the ME) can move on to bigger and broader issues.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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06-04-2010, 07:42 AM | #178 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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ace, i have no interest in debating your imaginary entities, your curious hypotheticals because i don't see either the need for them analytically or the interest of ceding a question of fact to one of aceventura's imaginings.
if you actually read the piece from ha'artez i copied, you'd see that the terrain worth focusing on is almost the opposite of yours, and this not only in the sense empirical world/ace's imagination, but also in the sense set into motion by the subheading of the piece, which i'll leave it to you to scroll way back up there and find. i'm also not interested in your notion of "excessive risk" being run by the activists. the idf raided the boat in international waters well before there was any reason to assume "Excessive risk"---at the point the ships crossed into gazan waters, the rationale would be like that which obtains for any other act of non-violent civil disobedience. this is not rocket science, ace.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
06-04-2010, 08:13 AM | #179 (permalink) | |
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Location: Ventura County
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Reminds me of a quote from Schopenhaur: "All truth goes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." Dude, the event was staged. Those who lead were not surprised by what occurred, they expected it. Regardless of one's position on the politics of the issue, the event was staged. So the next questions are by who and why?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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06-04-2010, 08:22 AM | #180 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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staged. you mean organized as an act of civil disobedience? for non-violent actions to be other than a simple massacre there has to be attention. there has to be publicity, has to be exposure. it's because of the exposure that the maladroit execise of power looses. and that is what the idf did.
i don't think anyone set out to fuck up. but they did. and there's little sense in trying to locate some absurd conspiracy behind the scenes to stand all the little soldiers back up again. the reason they launched the raid is pretty well summed up in the article above, i think...at the level of political generalities anyway. at the level of who made what decision when and how they combined to generate debacle for israel, that's still being handed around. but the bottom line here is the siege of gaza. if that siege were not in place, none of this would be happening. it's about defending the siege. what you are doing by attempting to concoct some absurd conspiracy to explain why the idf had to murder 10 unarmed people in international waters is to divert attention away from the problem. the israelis have brutalized the people of gaza for 3 years. because they did not like the way an open election turned out, they decided to collectively punish a civilian population. that's the problem behind all this.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
06-04-2010, 08:36 AM | #181 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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Fixed.
If the 'siege' were not in place, Iran et al would be shipping in arms to Hamas by the ton for the sole purpose of attacking Israel. This particular flotilla was organized by an islamic extremist group based in Turkey, thats some coincidence. The blockade needs to stay up until Hamas recognizes Israels right to exist and ceases it plans for its destruction. Thre is a reason why there have been no suicide bombings in Israel the past few years and it has nothing to do with Hamas not trying. |
06-04-2010, 08:59 AM | #182 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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right powerclown. so collective punishment for an election result you don't like is education in correct conduct and the massacre of 1500 civilians a bit of tough love and up is down and white is black and so it is in the rigid little world of people who imagine that supporting israel means justifying every last thing israel does, no matter how misguided, no matter how brutal (occupation anyone? colonialism anyone?) or self-defeating.
you got a hotline to AIPAC? you never fail to repeat their line. is eerie. fixed maybe.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
06-04-2010, 09:13 AM | #183 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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The fact remains that very few countries around the world recognize or correspond with Hamas, so I wouldn't be so quick to put this on the United States. Hamas has done nothing to improve the plight of their people, on the contrary they keep them in misery with their extremist policies. Do you know how many countries ship in truckloads of humanitarian aid into Gaza on a daily basis? One: Israel.
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06-04-2010, 09:23 AM | #184 (permalink) | |
Crazy, indeed
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06-04-2010, 09:31 AM | #185 (permalink) |
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The problem, PC, is that the aid wouldn't be needed in the first place if Israel hadn't turned Gaza into something like Warsaw, 1941: a walled-off disease farm where people exist on starvation rations or the near equivalent.
Look, this is Israel we're dealing with. Home of Mossad and Shin Bet. If two of the premier intelligence/counter-terrorism formations in the world can't figure out how to whack the leadership of a terrorist organization that is already pinned in place, they've fallen a long, bumpy way. If Hamas is a problem, I'm fully in favour of taking out their leadership. Hell, whack the leadership and a few firstborne sons, go Russian on their asses. Then make sure the next generation of Hamas/Fatah/whoever-takes-over gets the picture. Play ball, and you get to live. Get froggy with the rockets and suicide bombers, and get ready to die choking on your own cock, while somebody else who's probably smarter than you takes your spot in the Organization and the Government. Anybody who orders the launching of rockets against civilians deserves whatever flavour of nasty comes calling. But punishing the entire population of Gaza for the actions of their government is ridiculous. Garishly punishing the givers of orders while leaving the rest of the population unmolested, however, strikes me as a very effective means of achieving Israel's desired ends: security from Hamas attacks and a socially-integrable Palestinian population. This current silliness, OTOH, is counterproductive at best and is rapidly turning into an albatross. |
06-04-2010, 09:40 AM | #186 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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except that the israeli military and the political right/ultra-right need that command structure to plausibly be in place because it allows for the marketing of the Cause in the way it is marketed.
for example, if you don't want to make any meaningful progress with the west bank because it will inevitably mean dismantling the settlements, then the myth of a symmetrical conflict is useful. that's it's obviously entirely false is beside the point. reality is always secondary in these matters. the fate of the ultra-right is directly at stake in this, and that of the political right is by extension. your position presupposes that there's actually an interest in taking out hamas. there isn't any such interest. the only thing that interested the israeli right less than that was allowing hamas to govern, so to moderate. that would have been bad bad bad. whence the siege.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
06-04-2010, 09:44 AM | #187 (permalink) | |||
warrior bodhisattva
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Location: East-central Canada
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This helps explain why Hamas became popular enough to get elected. People seem to only know about Hamas' militant aspect. Quote:
Do you deny that Gaza is facing a humanitarian crisis?
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 06-04-2010 at 09:46 AM.. |
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06-04-2010, 10:48 AM | #188 (permalink) | |
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06-04-2010, 12:12 PM | #189 (permalink) | |
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While I suppose it's certainly possible some people on those aid ships are the third type you describe (though, seriously, as someone relatively active in the Palestinian freedom movement, these people are exceedingly rare), I'm not entirely sure it matters in this specific instance. The violence on the flotilla as the IDF forces foolishly repeled into a crowd was a direct response to the shooting of unarmed civilians, not the other way around. If that wasn't bad enough, the IDF commandos that landed also opened fire. This is when the American citizen from Turkey had 4 shots to the head and one to the chest all from short range. With all due respect, I cannot see how anyone could be trying to justify the actions of the IDF under orders from Israeli officials given the available information. Here is a link to the NYT article, in which witnesses attested to the actual timeline of events. |
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06-04-2010, 12:17 PM | #190 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Will, much of the problem is this:
Israeli PR machine won Gaza flotilla media battle | Antony Lerman | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
06-04-2010, 12:18 PM | #191 (permalink) | ||
Psycho
Location: My House
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1. Hamas is the largest and most influential Palestinian militant movement. 2. Since attaining power, Hamas has continued its refusal to recognize the state of Israel, leading to crippling economic sanctions. 3. The group has also operated a terrorist wing, carrying out suicide bombings and attacks using mortars and short-range rockets. 4. Hamas has launched attacks both in the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and inside the pre-1967 boundaries of Israel. 5. In Arabic, the word "hamas" means zeal. But it's also an Arabic acronym for "Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya," or Islamic Resistance Movement. 6. Hamas published its official charter in 1988, moving decidedly away from the Muslim Brotherhood's ethos of nonviolence. 7. The first Hamas suicide bombing took place in April 1993. 8. hamas has refused to eschew violence and remains adamant about reversing the decision by its rival faction, the more secular Fatah movement, to recognize Israel's right to exist. 9. In the summer of 2007, Hamas routed Fatah supporters, killing many and sending others fleeing to the West Bank. 10. Since coming to power in Gaza, rockets fired from the Hamas enclave have consistently landed on Israeli cities near the border. 11. Hamas called off the truce and resumed firing rockets into Israel. Which led to the dec08/jan09 invasion by Israel. 12. Hamas is believed to have killed more than five hundred people in more than 350 separate terrorist attacks since 1993. 13. Not all Hamas's attacks have been carried out by suicide bombers. The group has also accepted responsibility for assaults using mortars, short-range rockets, and small arms fire. 14. In 1996, Hamas bombings played an important role in undermining the election hopes of Labor Party leader Shimon Peres, who represented the succession to assassinated Oslo Accords signatory, Yitzhak Rabin. (Likud's Benjamin Netanyahu, who ran against the accords, won instead). Between 2001 and 2003, in particular, Hamas and its comrades of Palestinian Islamic Jihad carried out dozens of such attacks, ultimately leading Israel to begin construction of a barrier between itself and Palestinian regions. 15. The organization generally targets deeply religious young men—although some bombers have been older. 16. After a bombing, Hamas gives the family of the suicide bomber between three thousand dollars and five thousand dollars and assures them their son died a martyr in holy jihad. 17. The recruits undergo intense religious indoctrination, attend lectures, and undertake long fasts. The week before the bombing, the volunteers are watched closely by two Hamas activists for any signs of wavering, according to Nasra Hassan, writing in the New Yorker. Shortly before the "sacred explosion," as Hamas calls it, the bomber records a video testament. To draw inspiration, he repeatedly watches his video and those made by his predecessors and then sets off for his would-be martyrdom after performing a ritual ablution and donning clean clothes. Hamas clerics assure the bombers their deaths will be painless and that dozens of virgins await them in paradise. The average bombing costs about $150. Yes, hamas are very good people, they treat their constituents well, they “fund” them and keep them feed and happy with their 70 million a year help, what good would being in Gaza do if they lost all there would be bombers er.. scratch that, “support.” How many suicide bombers at 3 to 5 thousand plus 150 dollars each, can 70 million buy? A lot!
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you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes. |
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06-04-2010, 12:22 PM | #192 (permalink) | ||
Crazy, indeed
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06-04-2010, 12:50 PM | #193 (permalink) | ||
Her Jay
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06-04-2010, 12:59 PM | #194 (permalink) | ||
warrior bodhisattva
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Never mind, because it was completely lost. I could list the law and human rights violations conducted by Israel, but that wouldn't be the point here. We're not watching a scoreboard. We're not keeping a tally.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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06-04-2010, 01:18 PM | #195 (permalink) | ||||
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I am not arguing the politics of the issue, I am just stating what I now see as obvious given the information made available to me. The motivation has to go beyond food and aid. And if so, what was the motivation - I think I know - but do you insist that it was only food and aid? Quote:
---------- Post added at 09:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 PM ---------- I personally know people who actively engaged in civil disobedience both in this country and in African nations. There was never, according to their accounts, any pretense of the risks involved and they were fully aware of what and why they did what they did and where willing to accept the consequences. They would not allow participants to not know and understand the risks, nor would they put children on the front line. There was honor. In this case, why does it take so much effort to get to what is obvious? Why didn't/don't they say what is obvious from the very beginning? I think I know why, do you?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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06-04-2010, 01:22 PM | #196 (permalink) | |||||
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The simple concept behind the asymmetrical response policy is deterrence. The Israeli government justifies the way it reacts to possible threats with the rationalization that it will deter further possible threats of a similar nature. Consider how it reacted to Lebanon in 2006 or Gaza in 2008. These were not proportional responses by any measure. Similarly, the response to blockade running in the name of nonviolent resistance was always going to be a violent one on the part of the IDF because that's how they respond to anything. What I don't think the humanitarian protesters understood was just how far the IDF was prepared to go in the name of preventing the next aid flotilla. The irony is Israel's policy of extreme response is its greatest threat in that it inspires similarly extreme reactions. Quote:
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06-04-2010, 04:01 PM | #197 (permalink) | |
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Additional findings of the dead humanatarians:
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Self-defense gunshot wounds do not occur in the backs of the aggressors. The IDF naval commandos are highly trained, suggesting that shots fired are not going to miss their mark and coincidentally hit a whole bunch of people from behind because of poor marksmanship, but due to intentional executions. Let that word sink in: executions. |
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06-04-2010, 05:45 PM | #199 (permalink) | |
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Badly botched, unprepared to subdue the passengers in a practical way, yes. Execution? I really don't think that's what happened. |
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06-04-2010, 06:15 PM | #200 (permalink) |
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More eyewitness accounts from the activists:
http://www.examiner.com/x-38220-Orla...egin-to-emerge Four shots to the head? Five shots to the stomach? If you don't believe these were executions, would you agree that perhaps this could be the excessive asymmetrical warfare tactics that Will mentioned earlier? Last edited by ring; 06-04-2010 at 06:18 PM.. |
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activists, gaza, israeli, kills, navy |
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