israeli navy kills gaza activists - Page 4 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

roachboy · 06-03-2010, 09:48 AM

ace, what are you on?

the reason this is in the news is because the idf killed people in international waters. had the israeli military not bungled the operation---had they chosen to act otherwise---the flotilla would have in all probability got little attention in the mainstream press.

of course the event was organized. free gaza organized the event. these things don't spring up like worms from cheese. free gaza is an easy organization to check out. they have a website. here is a link:

Freegaza - News section

if this is really what you think, i would argue that in your one-man campaign to not be a "useful idiot" has focused all its energy on the adjective.
you might concern yourself more with the noun.
just a thought.

dippin · 06-03-2010, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Given the history of the tactics used by terrorists do you really want to stand by this statement? I am going to assume not and that we all realize that there are people willing to die for their cause - even people who are not terrorists have been willing to die for a cause.

Who, exactly, were the terrorists on board that ship?

Quote:

Again, I will not ignore the fact that there are people highly motivated to eliminate Israel - some to the extent that they would be willing to initiate a world war.

The fact that there are people highly motivated to eliminate Israel does not excuse blatant human rights violations. This is a silly deflection that again ignores the problem that the embargo goes way beyond weapons.

Quote:

I think food and aid is able to get to the people who need it, even with the blockade. War is war. If Israel is at war a blockade is a normal strategy. I believe Israel is in a state of war. If these matters are to be de-escalated, peace loving people have to be more proactive and blind support of staged events is not helpful.

This is a "war" in which one side has significantly more firepower than the other, which doesn't even have a standing army. Collective punishment has never worked in these situations.

And "blind support" to me sounds a lot like supporting an illegal action that used significantly more power than necessary.

Cimarron29414 · 06-03-2010, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

And "blind support" to me sounds a lot like supporting an illegal action that used significantly more power than necessary.

I agree with you guys on nearly everything you are saying except the above. What I'm about to ask might not be what you mean in the statement above. But, you have made mention several times about the types of weapons the one group had. You seem to think it was wrong to shoot because these guys "only" had pipes and knives.

I know they shouldn't have been there, I know it was in international waters, I know the seize is immoral. Let's focus on the millisecond of time where someone starts stabbing you.

Dippin, if you have a gun and someone starts stabbing you with a knife, are you going to shoot them or let them keep stabbing? This is a serious question. I'm not picking a fight here, I am just trying to understand the alternative once you are on your back being hit about the head with pipes and being stabbed.

roachboy · 06-03-2010, 10:34 AM

here's a clip and article about a uk activist who was on one of the boats the israelis raided. obviously not a single element in the idf's story is confirmed here. not one.

British survivor of Gaza flotilla raid: 'Israelis ignored SOS calls' | World news | guardian.co.uk

so no, i don't think this was "staged"---i think it was a colossal fuck up on the israeli part. but they fucked up with live ammunition so people ended up dead.

it seems really obvious that this is the case.
i can't understand the contortions people are willing to put themselves through to rationalize this.

as for why someone would shoot....the problem is the situation itself. within such a situation, things get chaotic very quickly, snap decisions are made based on appearance as much as anything else and people can get hurt or killed very very easily. but what the article/clip above make clear is that the idf came on in an extremely violent, aggressive manner. and if it is the case that they handcuffed the ship's medical staff and refused to help the wounded....then we're back in classic colonial brutality mode, aren't we? the kind of ordinary disregard for human life so prevalent in the occupied territories and embodied in the siege.

bad business.

Idyllic · 06-03-2010, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Why did they change the flag of Mavi Marmara from Turkey to Komor Islands?
Wed, 06/02/2010 - 10:59

* International

The story of the leading vessel of the Gaza aid flotilla, Mavi Marmara, presents a peculiar move on the part of AKP government concerning the consequences of the initiative.

Mavi Marmara (Blue Marmara), the vessel that was carrying more than 600 activists on board to Gaza and was attacked by the Israeli elite commandos and helicopters resulting in 9 deaths and dozens of wounded, has an interesting history.

IHH, the aid organization that was the main organizer of the "Freedom Flotilla"*, had tried to reach to Gaza before from land, from Egypt. That attempt was not successful, thus, the new plan of going by the sea (which had already been tried by many pro-Palestine organization) came up.

IHH started looking for vessels to rent, but nobody seemed to be eager to rent their ships for such a dangerous journey. Thus, IHH decided to buy the ship. The organization bought Mavi Marmara from Istanbul Deniz Otobüsleri A.Ş. (IDO - Istanbul Seabus Company) for 1 million 800 thousand Turkish liras (approximately 900 thousand euros). Mavi Marmara was used as a ferry in Istanbul. IHH soon changed the national flag of Mavi Marmara from Turkey to Komor Islands.

A necessary note for non-Turkish readers should be written down. IHH, the humanitarian aid organization, was founded by the Milli Görüş movement, the far-right Islamic political movement in Turkey, upon the direct order of the historical leader of the movement, Necmettin Erbakan, back in the beginning of the 90s. The organization used to collect money from the Muslim community in Turkey and outside (especially in Germany) for humanitarian aid. The famous "Mercümek case" and the "Lost Trillion case", with the popular name of the case in Turkish, revealed that Milli Görüş movement had stolen billions from the aid collected.

This kind of aid organizations had always been used by Milli Görüş, and thus, by AKP, the governing party of Turkey, which was founded by a group of ex-leaders of the Milli Görüş line. Another similar organization, Deniz Feneri e.V., has been banned recently in Germany after the revelation of a huge scandal of financial fraud.

IHH, after the foundation of AKP, has been more under the influence of AKP line than the Milli Görüş line, though the organization still has members from both lines. The IHH's ex-chief of Europe, Eyüp Fatsa, is an MP of AKP. Therefore, IHH is an organization that is tied inorganically to AKP, and any possibility that the huge campaign of aid to Gaza was organized without the approval and support of AKP is out of question.

Another note to be written is the fact that a group of AKP MPs were planning to accompany the ships in April. But, curiously, starting from the beginning of May, AKP stopped all references to IHH from the party and cautiously erased all connection between the party and the Gaza aid campaign. The fact that AKP stopped its MPs from joining the ships is a sign that they were considering the possibility of an attack by the Israelis, which, for anyone that knows history even slightly, is easy to guess.

Why was the flag changed?
Coming back to the story of Mavi Marmara, if IHH had not changed the flag to Komor Islands and the ship had been attacked, it would have been recognized as an aggression against Turkish national territory, since the ship was on international waters. Thus, it would not only have resulted in a more fierce emotional reaction, but also in the coming up to the agenda of the famous (or infamous) Article 5 of the NATO treaty, which establishes that NATO states respond collectively to any armed attack against a member state.

So, the move of changing the flag seems to be the result of a neatly-adjusted and elaborately thought plan of AKP. The ship was an experimental attempt by AKP. The party, recognizing the possible consequences, restrained its MPs from joining the flotilla and supressed any implication of connections between the party and the flotilla. But still, the ties between IHH and AKP remove the possibility that AKP had no role in the plan. AKP sent the ships, with all the activists inside, to a dangerous journey without taking any necessary precautions as part of an experiment, to see the reaction of Israel.

The talk of Erdoğan after the attack in TBMM had much fierce discourse and no real, practical steps. The story of the vessel Mavi Marmara demonstrates that, from the beginning, AKP tried to avoid any real consequences anyway.

(soL)

* The name "Freedom Flotilla" was never used in Turkish with reference to the flotilla. The official name of the campaign was "Our route is Palestine, our load is humanitarian aid"

This whole thing goes much, much deeper than were seeing. There is no excuse for killing, but their is an excuse for self defense, regardless of whether the "activist" perceived they were in the right or wrong, they attacked the IDF brutally FORCING the soldiers to defend themselves, period. These “activists” could just as easily stepped back, they knew the procedures, and they also KNEW that if they had not fought they would not have died (martyrdom is taught to be the greatest gift to Allah by Islamic extremists), but for many of the "activists" their intent WAS martyrdom for their perceived cause, had they not put themselves at deaths risk, and pushed an attack, then the attention this incident would have garnered would have been minimal, if any at all. This did not have to happen but the blame is buried far deeper than the surface issues that we are seeing, this incident is merely a symptom of what is really occurring. We watch, we look, we listen to the world and each other and learn more each day, but to condemn either side right now, especially based on this incidence, when bigger hands may be at play here using these "activists," as well as possibly the Palestinians, the Gazan peoples, as puppets, will solve nothing.

I realize the attention has now been turned to the embargo and the blockade, but before it is lifted, Israel, as well as the world, needs to discover the responsible parties and the full involvement of others in this incident. If some entity were truly trying to bring in terrorists or weapons, what makes any of us think that the minute the blockade is ended the gaza strip won’t be flooded with weapons and terrorists whose singular wish is to bring about an assault on Israel that would then force Israel to respond which just ends in the deaths of more innocents on both sides. More answers are needed before the blockade should fall just yet, and I still believe that hamas should, at the very least, acknowledge Israel and all Israelis’ rights to exist before Israel should lower any defensive “walls” of protection.

---------- Post added at 02:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:34 PM ----------

Free Gaza did not organize this event, IHH did, they bought the ship because no one would let them borrow one.

rahl · 06-03-2010, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

This whole thing goes much, much deeper than were seeing. There is no excuse for killing, but their is an excuse for self defense, regardless of whether the "activist" perceived they were in the right or wrong, they attacked the IDF brutally FORCING the soldiers to defend themselves, period. .

WHAT???

the commando's commited an act of piracy. Do you not understand what international waters mean? So, in your mind, you think it should be ok for a group of armed pirates to board your ship illegally and look through your things? You don't think you have the right to defend yourself from said pirates?

Xazy · 06-03-2010, 11:04 AM

Explains it better then I can, but personally I have noticed bias in the media against israel for years, ny times, cnn, bbc I have seen dozens of times when they have published articles only for weeks later make a small retraction (if ever).

Idyllic · 06-03-2010, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl

WHAT???

the commando's commited an act of piracy. Do you not understand what international waters mean? So, in your mind, you think it should be ok for a group of armed pirates to board your ship illegally and look through your things? You don't think you have the right to defend yourself from said pirates?

rahl, if pirates boarded my ship, I would let them have whatever they wanted, I would never offer my life for stuff, my life IS the most valuable commodity I own, dead I am useless to help any human any further. I would do as they asked and hope they would merely take whatever they wanted and leave. The only time I think I would fight is if I were doing something wrong and did not want to be discovered, or if I were intentionally attempting to prove some point, a point that at this time, I could not even imagine, would compete with my life.

dippin · 06-03-2010, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cimarron29414

I agree with you guys on nearly everything you are saying except the above. What I'm about to ask might not be what you mean in the statement above. But, you have made mention several times about the types of weapons the one group had. You seem to think it was wrong to shoot because these guys "only" had pipes and knives.

I know they shouldn't have been there, I know it was in international waters, I know the seize is immoral. Let's focus on the millisecond of time where someone starts stabbing you.

Dippin, if you have a gun and someone starts stabbing you with a knife, are you going to shoot them or let them keep stabbing? This is a serious question. I'm not picking a fight here, I am just trying to understand the alternative once you are on your back being hit about the head with pipes and being stabbed.

Well, the thing is that the "pipes" weren't pipes, but railings from the boat. And the knives weren't combat knives, but kitchen knives. Certainly military helicopters and navy ships had other ways of stopping that ship that didn't involve shooting and killing up to 19 people.
Add to that the recent reports that multiple victims were shot in the head several times at close range, and the whole thing becomes even more outrageous. One of the bodies released to Turkey, for example, had 1 shot to the chest and 4 to the head at close range.

Cimarron29414 · 06-03-2010, 11:09 AM

I am still trying to find any information to indicate why the commandos chose to raid in international waters rather than Israeli waters. It seems this is the strategic blunder that has made this such an issue. Whoever made that call is responsible for the outcome.

rahl · 06-03-2010, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

rahl, if pirates boarded my ship, I would let them have whatever they wanted, I would never offer my life for stuff, my life IS the most valuable commodity I own, dead I am useless to help any human any further. I would do as they asked and hope they would merely take whatever they wanted and leave. The only time I think I would fight is if I were doing something wrong and did not want to be discovered, or if I were intentionally attempting to prove some point, a point that at this time, I could not even imagine, would compete with my life.

I'm fairly certain you are being intentionally dishonest. I'm pretty sure you would defend yourself from a threat.

aceventura3 · 06-03-2010, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

Who, exactly, were the terrorists on board that ship?

I have not concluded they were terrorists. I emphasized that there are people who are not terrorists who are willing to die for a cause.

Quote:

The fact that there are people highly motivated to eliminate Israel does not excuse blatant human rights violations. This is a silly deflection that again ignores the problem that the embargo goes way beyond weapons.

Seems to me that you may be engaged in a silly deflection. When this question is answered we will know: What was the motivation behind running the blockade? If it was only about food and aid, your position will be proven correct. In my view - if the motivation was really food and aid, no one would have died.

Also, why would reasonable unarmed people attacked armed military (people trained to kill)? You do not have an answer, do you?

Quote:

This is a "war" in which one side has significantly more firepower than the other, which doesn't even have a standing army. Collective punishment has never worked in these situations.

If not for US support and US clout, Israel would not exist. Israel is currently facing a big challenge given the Obama posture on Israel - US support is being tested and Israel is being tested. I think the risks of a world war is higher today than it has been in many years. This is no longer a theortical discussion.

Quote:

And "blind support" to me sounds a lot like supporting an illegal action that used significantly more power than necessary.

My concerns have more to do with this growing into a broader military conflict than with the blockade. If Israel over-reacted militarily they should be held accountable. If this was a staged event those responsible need to be held accountable. I have come to my conclusion and I have stated my basis - I hope I am wrong - but nothing you or anyone has presented has been able to shed any light on the issue. there are some very simple questions that can be answered if you are correct that can explain all of this. Perhaps we will see some interviews of those involved and can get a clearer understanding of their mission.

Cimarron29414 · 06-03-2010, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

Well, the thing is that the "pipes" weren't pipes, but railings from the boat. And the knives weren't combat knives, but kitchen knives. Certainly military helicopters and navy ships had other ways of stopping that ship that didn't involve shooting and killing up to 19 people.
Add to that the recent reports that multiple victims were shot in the head several times at close range, and the whole thing becomes even more outrageous. One of the bodies released to Turkey, for example, had 1 shot to the chest and 4 to the head at close range.

Kitchen knives as in butter knives or kitchen knives as in steak knives? I honestly don't know. I've heard reports that some Israeli troops were shot (with guns that were taken from them.) We will never be able to piece together who did what first but the violence definitely escalated where one could reasonably assume that their lives were in danger (on both sides.)

It's an event that never should have happened, but once it starts, I'm assuming you'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, like me?

aceventura3 · 06-03-2010, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

so no, i don't think this was "staged"---i think it was a colossal fuck up on the israeli part. but they fucked up with live ammunition so people ended up dead.

The lady was below deck asleep when these actions started. Not conclusive.

ring · 06-03-2010, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

One of the bodies released to Turkey, for example, had 1 shot to the chest and 4 to the head at close range.

If what I have heard is correct; that victim was a US citizen who lived in Turkey?

Idyllic · 06-03-2010, 11:20 AM

It is good to die for your cause, right? To many devout Muslims, however, death may possibly be better than the life their extremist leaders/rulers/dictators keep them thumbed under. Theocracy in any form is demoralizing and all forms of these tyrannical regimes, hamas, al qaeda, hezbollah, taliban insurgents, et al. believe in martyrdom, exponentially. Here's you better life, or should I say afterlife, here is a little of what killing yourself and killing others, even innocents (especially infidels), will buy you:

Quote:

Virtues of Martyrdom in the Path of Allah 'Abdullah Yusuf 'Azzam Article ID: 1012 | 8004 Reads

Adopted from the works of ash-Sheikh ash-Shaheed 'Abdullah Azzam
“The life of the Ummah is connected to the ink of the scholars and the blood of the martyrs. What is more beautiful than to write the history of the Ummah with both the ink of the scholar and his blood, such that the map of Islamic history becomes coloured with two lines: one of them black, and that is what the scholar writes with the ink of his pen; and the second red, and that is what the martyr writes with his blood. And more beautiful than this is when the blood is one and the pen is one, so that the hand of the scholar, which expends the ink and moves the pen, is the same hand that expends his blood and moves the nations. The extent to which the number of martyred scholars increases, is the extent to which nations are delivered from their slumber, rescued from their decline and awoken from their sleep.

So history does not write its lines except with blood. Glory does not build its lofty edifice except with skulls. Honour and respect cannot be established except on a foundation of cripples and corpses. Empires, noble persons, states and societies, cannot be established except with examples"

ash-Sheikh ash-Shaheed ‘Abdullah Yoosuf ‘Azzam – May Allah have mercy upon you Ya Sheikhana! For your blood was not shed in vain after your assassination in 1989.

Glossary:
Shaheed: Lit. A witness, a martyr
Shuhadaa`: Plural of Shaheed - martyrs
Shahaadah: Lit. Testimony, martyrdom

1 – The blood of the Shaheed smells of musk:
“By the One in Whose Hand is my soul, no one is injured in the Path of Allah – and Allah knows best who is truly wounded in His Path – except that he comes (with his wound) on the Day of Resurrection, its colour the colour of blood, and its scent that of musk." [Muslim and Ahmad]

2 – The Most Beloved of the drops to Allah:
“There is nothing more beloved to Allah than two drops or two marks. The teardrop that falls from the fear of Allah, and the drop of blood shed in the Path of Allah. And as for the marks, then a mark in the Path of Allah, and a mark in an obligation from the obligations unto Allah”. (Hasan, reported by at-Tirmidhi)
"al-Jihad" is the intended meaning of the phrase “in the Path of Allah” as explained by Ibn Hajr al-'Asqalaani in Fath al-Bari.
About the meaning of "Jihad" Ibn Rushd said: “The word Jihad when it is uttered means to fight the disbelievers with the sword, until they accept Islam, or pay the Jizya (tax) by hand in a state of humiliation”

3 – The Shaheed Wishes to Return to this World:
“Any slave [of Allah] who dies and has been bestowed good from Allah, does not wish to return to the World, even if he is given the World and what it contains; except a Shaheed, due to what he sees from the virtues of Shahaadah [Martyrdom]. So he wishes to return to the World in order to be killed again” – and in another wording – “So that he may be killed ten times due to what he receives from the honour” [al-Bukhari and Muslim]
Scholars differed with regards to the reasons behind naming a martyr “Shaheed” (lit. a witness). Al-Azhari says, “This is because Allah and His Messenger bear witness that he is in Paradise” an-Nadhr says, “ash-Shaheed (a witness), is alive, so they were named that because they are alive with their Lord”.
It is also said, “Because the angels of mercy bear witness and take his soul”, and “he is from those who will be a witness unto nations”, and “He is witnessed to have Iman and a good end in his outward appearance”, and “because his blood bears witness for him on the Day of Judgment”.
Sheikh 'Abdullah Azzam says: "They are Shuhadaa` [witnesses] to the fact that this Deen is greater than life, and that values are more important than blood, and that principles are more precious than souls"

4 – Haarithah in the Highest Firdaws:
The Prophet – May the Salaah and Salaam of Allah be upon him – said to Umm Haarithah bint an-Nu’maan – after her son was killed in the battle of Badr – after she asked: “Where is he (i.e. is he in Paradise or the Fire)?” – he replied, “Indeed, he is in the highest Firdaws” [al-Bukhaari]
In another Hadeeth reported by al-Bukhaari:
“Indeed, in Paradise are a hundred levels which Allah has prepared for the Mujahideen in His Path. The distance between each level is that of between the heavens and the earth. So when you ask of Allah, then ask Him for Firdaws, for it is the center of Paradise, and the highest part of Paradise, and above it is the throne of The Most Merciful, from whence, the highest Firdaws, the rivers of Paradise spring forth”

5 – The Souls of the Shuhadaa` in the Hearts of Green Birds:
“Indeed the souls of the martyrs are in the hearts of green birds, and they have lanterns hanging underneath the 'arsh (the throne of Allaah). They roam around in Paradise wherever they wish, then they return to their lanterns. So, their Lord enquires: “Do you desire anything?” They say, “What can we desire for, when we roam around in Paradise wherever we wish?” And He asks them this three times. When they realize that they will not cease to be questioned, they say, “O Lord! We wish that you return our souls to our bodies, in order that we be killed in Your Path again” When it is realized that they have no need, they will be left alone.” [Muslim]

6 – Special Favours for the Shaheed:
“The Shaheed is granted seven special favours from Allah. He is forgiven (his sins) at the first drop of his blood. He sees his place in Paradise. He is dressed in the clothes of Iman. He is married to the Hoor al-‘Ain (beautiful women of Paradise). He is saved from the punishment of the grave. He will be protected from the great fear of the Day of Judgement. A crown of honour will be placed on his head, one jewel of which is better than the whole world and what it contains. He is married to seventy-two of the Hoor al-‘Ain (beautiful women of Paradise), and he will be able to intercede for seventy members of his family.” [Saheeh – Related by Ahmad, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn Hibbaan]

7 – The Shuhadaa` of Uhud:
“When your brothers were killed at Uhud, Allah placed their souls in the hearts of green birds. They frequent the rivers of Paradise, and eat from its fruits, then return to the lanterns under the Throne. When they enjoy the good in their food and drink, and their excellent speech, they say, “We wish that our brothers knew what Allah has prepared for us, so that they will never abstain from Jihad, nor will they refrain from war” So Allah said, “I will inform them of you” So Allah revealed these verses to His Messenger:
“Think not of those killed in the Path of Allah is dead...” (3:169) [Ahmad, Abu Dawud, al-Hakim classified it Saheeh and adh-Dhahabi agreed]

roachboy · 06-03-2010, 11:23 AM

this is easier to navigate if you click on the link below, but i wanted to paste it up before i forgot about it:

Quote:

Passengers recount mid-sea horror

Israel has released and deported most of the 700 activists it captured after Israeli troops stormed a flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian aid to Palestinians in Gaza.

Here are excerpts of what some of the freed passengers had to say (click on a name to jump to that passenger's testimonial):

* Andre Abu-Khalil, Al Jazeera cameraman
* Mohamed Vall, Al Jazeera reporter
* Othman Battiri, Al Jazeera crew member
* Hazem Farouq, Egyptian MP from the Muslim Brotherhood
* Issam Zaatar, Al Jazeera cameraman
* Haneen Zubi, Palestinian member of the Knesset
* Norman Paech, former member of the German parliament
* Mihalis Grigoropoulos, Greece
* Nilufer Cetin, Turkey
* Youssef Benderbal, France
* Dimitris Gielalis, Greece
* Mutlu Tiryaki, Turkey

Andre Abu-Khalil, Al Jazeera cameraman

First they [the Israelis] tried to come by helicopter and tried to come down on the main deck. But the Turkish people were gathering on the rooftop and they managed to grab three of the soldiers, which led to a second helicopter to come and start shooting live bullets on the people.

People [on board] did not have any guns. All what they had were some wooden sticks which is normal.

I was on the Mavi Marmara [the lead ship of the flotilla].

I wasn't on the rooftop deck. I was on the first deck floor where the Israelis tried to climb by the ropes on the deck.

There were 20 Turkish resistance guys throwing tomatoes, anything that they managed to throw, on the Israelis.

Then one of these Turkish guys got a bullet just in the head. When the Turkish people saw that, they pulled him inside when the Israelis started firing on the deck.

[After the Israelis took over the ship] they kept us tied up, hands behind the back, for nine hours until we reached the Ashdod port and from there they took us for individual interrogation and then shipped us all to Be'er Sheva jail.

The organisers [of the flotilla] swapped the four Israelis kidnapped, or caught, by the people on the ship, and because they were beaten up, because it's kind of resistance from our side, we swapped the Israeli soldiers to [get] to treat our injured.

Mohamed Vall, Al Jazeera reporter

The Israeli assault took those of us on the ship by complete surprise.

During that hour an half in the early morning everybody on board the ship thought that no-one would survive the Israeli attack because we saw about 30 war vessels surrounding this ship and helicopters attacking with very luminous bombs, the sound of them makes you think you are dead

That was a fear of war, complete war, on a ship that was full of men, women and even children.

The first soldiers on the ship were not killed, they were not shot at, they were captured by the defenders of the ship.

Moments later another bigger helicopter landed more troops and this time they fired immediately at people and killed as many as they could so that they could reach the cabin and take control of the ship.

I saw blood spilt on the ship and everyone knew that there was no weapons. we all knew the Israelis would intercept us and try to stop us, but we didn't think that they would open fire at the first moment.

I have been shown the picture of a Yemeni man, and this is ridiculous, who was on the ship and most people know that every Yemeni in the world has a Yemeni style knife, that is a cultural thing and does not have anything to do with violence.

I understand now that in Israel they are trying to make a big deal about that, saying that the boat was full of violent people and just because of that one man.

Othman Battiri, Al Jazeera crew member

At 4:15, tens of Navy boats carrying tens of soldiers tried to board the ships. They were met by resistance. Peaceful resistance. Helicopters came and tried to download soldiers. They could not.

At that moment, they started firing live ammunition.

First, they fired sound and gas bombs and rubber bullets. Some people were injured from the rubber bullets. Then, live bullets were used. I saw several men being wounded. We tried to help some of the wounded. I saw four people who were killed.

I saw two people die before my eyes. One of them had a bullet in the chest. The other was bleeding but I did not know where he was shot.

We went down to see the other dead people. One had a bullet in his head as if he was hit by a sniper. Live bullets were every where.

They did not respect that all those on the ships were civilians. There were no weapons.

There was not firing by the activists on the soldiers. As media we stand witnesses on that.

They four dead people that I saw were all Turkish. Two were old men. The other two were younger. One of the young people was a coordinator in the media room. His name is Juwdat.

We heard that more people were killed. I only saw four. Most of the fighting took place on the upper level around the room of ship captain, where the activist tried to prevent the soldiers from trying to control the captain’s room. This is where live ammunition were used.

The attack started at 4:15 and ended around 5:30 when we heard that the ship was controlled by the Israeli's.

Around 7:00 they asked us to leave our rooms and they started tying our hands.

Hazem Farouq, Egyptian MP from the Muslim Brotherhood

Helicopters were flying above us. Four military ships and 10 Navy boats surrounded us. They rained us with sound and gas bombs as if we were in real war.

Four people died before my eyes and in my hands. We could not find any first aid material. What happened required a field hospital to treat the injured. I did not have the necessary material to treat their bleeding wounds.

When we tried to carry the injured, the Israeli soldiers refused to allow men to carry the wounded. They pointed their guns with laser light toward their heads. They asked women to carry the wounded. Some women could not.

The wounded were very hurt because they were not carried in the proper way through the stairs and narrow doors.

Farouq is a dentist who was on board Mavi Marmara, the lead ship of the flotilla. He spoke to Al Jazeera after arriving in Cairo.

Issam Zaatar, Al Jazeera cameraman

I was filming, and then he [an Israeli solider] ran after me with a stun gun.

He could not catch me. One of his colleagues hit my hand from behind with a stun gun. My camera fell down. He ran to crush the camera with his feet.

I told him, don't break my camera. If you want the tapes, I will give them to you. I told him these are media equipment. They had no limits.

They used rubber bullets. They used tear gas bombs. It was an unbelievable scene.

Haneen Zubi, Palestinian member of the Knesset

We were expecting the Israeli army to stop us, to prevent us from entering but surely we didn't expect such a war against us.

It was 14 ships which approached us, nearly at 4.30 in the morning. Fourteen ships that I could count and one helicopter. Maybe more than 10 soldiers, I couldn't say exactly [how many] were getting out of the helicopter.

On the second floor of the ship there were just passengers who are journalists, a nurse and organisers of the flotilla who didn't have anything in their hands.

After 20 minutes, maybe 15 minutes, there were three dead bodies.

It ended at six, when a voice from the microphone said the ship was controlled by the Israelis, 'please enter the rooms'.

Norman Paech, former member of the German parliament

This was not an act of self-defence [by the Israeli army], but rather it was completely disproportionate - although we were counting on our ship being blocked and maybe checked.

This was a very serious offence, this was a war crime.

I personally saw two and a half wooden sticks which were used [by activists].

We had not prepared in any way to fight. We didn't even consider it.

No violence, no resistance - because we knew very well that we would have absolutely no chance against soldiers like this.

Mihalis Grigoropoulos, Greece

I was steering the ship, we saw them [Israeli soldiers] capture another ship in front of us, which was the Turkish passenger vessel with more than 500 people on board and heard shots fired.

We did not resist at all, we couldn't even if we had wanted to. What could we have done against the commandos who climbed aboard?

The only thing some people tried was to delay them from getting to the bridge, forming a human shield. They were fired upon with plastic bullets and were stunned with electric devices.

There was great mistreatment after our arrest. We were essentially hostages, like animals on the ground.

They wouldn't let us use the bathroom, wouldn't give us food or water and they took video of us despite international conventions banning this.

Nilufer Cetin, Turkey

We stayed in our cabin and played games amid the sound of gunfire.

My son has been nervous since yesterday afternoon ... I did not need to protect my son.

They knew there was a baby on board. I put a gas mask and life jacket on my son.

We did not experience any other problems on board, only a water shortage.

We took walks on the deck, played games with my son. The curtains were drawn, so I did not see the raid as it was happening. I only heard the voices.

There are lightly and heavily wounded people.

There are thousands, millions of babies in Gaza. My son and I wanted to play with those babies. We planned to deliver them aid. We wanted to say: 'Look, it's a safe place, I came here with my baby-son.'

I saw my husband from a distance, he looked okay. The ship personnel was not wounded, because they [the soldiers] needed them to take the ship to port.

I will go again if another ship goes.

Cetin returned to Istanbul airport with her one-year-old son.

Youssef Benderbal, France

The instructions were clear. Do not provoke, remain calm and go to meet them [the commandos] saying 'we are pacifists and not terrorists'.

Masked commandos took possession of the ship. They were aiming for the captain's cabin.

Benderbal was not on board Mavi Marmara, the lead ship of the flotilla, but on one of the other five ships. He gave this account to Europe 1 radio after arriving at a Paris airport.

Dimitris Gielalis, Greece

Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat.

They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used.

Gielalis was on board the ship Sfendoni.

Mutlu Tiryaki, Turkey

When we went up to the deck, they emerged from helicopters and military boats and attacked us.

They approached our vessel with military ships after issuing a warning. We told them we were unarmed. Our sole weapon was water.

Passengers recount mid-sea horror - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

aceventura3 · 06-03-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xazy

Explains it better then I can, but personally I have noticed bias in the media against israel for years, ny times, cnn, bbc I have seen dozens of times when they have published articles only for weeks later make a small retraction (if ever).

It is interesting how the knee-jerk reaction by some is stuff like this and the conclusion that I came to is craziness or silliness. I can admit that I may be wrong, but I am not naive.

Idyllic · 06-03-2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

Well, the thing is that the "pipes" weren't pipes, but railings from the boat. And the knives weren't combat knives, but kitchen knives. Certainly military helicopters and navy ships had other ways of stopping that ship that didn't involve shooting and killing up to 19 people.
Add to that the recent reports that multiple victims were shot in the head several times at close range, and the whole thing becomes even more outrageous. One of the bodies released to Turkey, for example, had 1 shot to the chest and 4 to the head at close range.

Basic combat training, two to the chest, still moving, one to the head. Any soldier who deviated from this when being brutally attacked by any weapon that could kill them is REQUIRED to react in this manner. Training, dippin, it's all about the training, these soldiers did their jobs as they were taught to. Actually the more shot shows to me the true fear these soldier were experiencing at the time of this incident.

silent_jay · 06-03-2010, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

Basic combat training, two to the chest, still moving, one to the head. Any soldier who deviated from this when being brutally attacked by any weapon that could kill them is REQUIRED to react in this manner. Training, dippin, it's all about the training, these soldiers did their jobs as they were taught to. Actually the more shot shows to me the true fear these soldier were experiencing at the time of this incident.

Except you can't seem to read what dippin typed, it was 1 to the chest, 4 to the head, not 2 to the chest, 1 to the head.

Quote:

1 shot to the chest and 4 to the head at close range

I love how you keep using the word 'brutally' like it makes it so.

Quote:

Actually the more shot shows to me the true fear these soldier were experiencing at the time of this incident.

You sure do read a lot into everything for someone who so often doesn't seem to read what people actually type.

Baraka_Guru · 06-03-2010, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

this is easier to navigate if you click on the link below, but i wanted to paste it up before i forgot about it:

I'm wondering if this will provide direct context to the IDF video footage. If the passengers on the ship had already been subject to live fire, then the rappelling of soldiers to the deck could have been viewed as "the next phase" of further attack.

Acts of self-defense?

Idyllic · 06-03-2010, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl

I'm fairly certain you are being intentionally dishonest. I'm pretty sure you would defend yourself from a threat.

As you say rahl, "My life is mine alone," however, I really do wish to rise up and live it, not lie down and give it, especially not for stuff on a boat when I know it will get their another way, and if I am around to help I can try again and again, isn't that what you would do to, or would you die for the cause. the cause being the one they died for, which at this time was attention from the press about a problem we are already aware of.

roachboy · 06-03-2010, 11:37 AM

you might be interested in this:

Both sides of flotilla story - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

rather than simply relying on idf video.

aceventura3 · 06-03-2010, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

this is easier to navigate if you click on the link below, but i wanted to paste it up before i forgot about it:

In 1968 I was 8 years old when riots broke out in the city I lived in. First my parents told me - whatever you do, when interacting with a person with a gun - cooperate, more so than ever, because everyone was on edge. Second, I had an older cousin who was an active militant at the time and she told me the same thing and to get away if I was near a fool instigating police or national Guard. Why no quotes from people explaining why they made the choice to fight rather than cooperate? Their actions defy common sense.

Baraka_Guru · 06-03-2010, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

you might be interested in this:

Both sides of flotilla story - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

rather than simply relying on idf video.

I think the Al Jazeera footage should be released.

---------- Post added at 03:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:49 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Their actions defy common sense.

It makes more sense if they were already being fired upon and feared taking more fire.

Xazy · 06-03-2010, 11:53 AM

They were carrying almost a million euro in their pockets, Israel found spent bullet cartridges that are not used by Israeli troops. Also they found video on the boat filled with passengers injured by troops, but those films were filmed during daylight prior t the exact operation. Yes, I am sorry if I doubt al Jazeera reporters, and pollywood (we had a whole threat maybe a year back showing fake Palestinian videos). Israel has in the past diverted other aid, all peacefully, and delivered whatever aid was on those ships, this was not about delivering aid.

Oh and lets not forget that there really are 10000+ rockets fired at israel in past 5 years imagine if it was your neighboring country doing it

dippin · 06-03-2010, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

In 1968 I was 8 years old when riots broke out in the city I lived in. First my parents told me - whatever you do, when interacting with a person with a gun - cooperate, more so than ever, because everyone was on edge. Second, I had an older cousin who was an active militant at the time and she told me the same thing and to get away if I was near a fool instigating police or national Guard. Why no quotes from people explaining why they made the choice to fight rather than cooperate? Their actions defy common sense.

And how does that make the actions of those with guns right or moral?

aceventura3 · 06-03-2010, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

I'm wondering if this will provide direct context to the IDF video footage. If the passengers on the ship had already been subject to live fire, then the rappelling of soldiers to the deck could have been viewed as "the next phase" of further attack.

Acts of self-defense?

No. First, given what they were doing I am pretty sure they had a plan. If we get boarded do... If we get attacked do... This is how they are trained to respond, so if...do...

What do you think their plan was? Perhaps something like: If they shoot, run below get a sling-shot, take your sling-shot and aim at the ones with helmets on??? And when throwing tomatoes aim at their feet so they fall...???

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

And how does that make the actions of those with guns right or moral?

The message to me was to cooperate and live to see another day.

roachboy · 06-03-2010, 11:58 AM

another segment, this from democracy now:

Flotilla Passengers Huwaida Arraf of Free Gaza Movement and Retired Army Col. Ann Wright Respond to Israeli Claims on Deadly Assault

this is in french, but here's another series of statements from people who were on the boats that were raided by the idf that totally contradict the idf's line.

"Comme dans une guerre" - LeMonde.fr

dippin · 06-03-2010, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

The message to me was to cooperate and live to see another day.

Which again ignores the issue...

roachboy · 06-03-2010, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Author Henning Mankell Says Israel Committed Piracy (Update1)

By Catherine Hickley

June 3 (Bloomberg) -- Henning Mankell, the Swedish author of crime novels featuring the detective Kurt Wallander, said Israel committed an act of piracy and kidnapping by attacking aid-laden ships headed for Gaza in international waters.

Mankell was aboard the Sofia, one of six ships in the flotilla in the May 31 campaign. He said the boat was carrying cement, building materials and prefabricated houses to Gaza. About 25 passengers were on board, many of them Swedish. Mankell and the other participants in the flotilla were detained in Israel after they were captured.

“This happened on international waters, so this was an act of piracy,” Mankell, 62, told journalists in Berlin, where he is starting a promotion tour for his new novel. “When they took us to Israel, we were kidnapped under international law.”

Israel has faced international criticism over its raid by naval commandos that left nine dead aboard the Mavi Marmara, one of the ships taking aid to the Gaza Strip on May 31. The United Nations Security Council condemned the violence and Turkey has asked for an official apology, an international investigation and an immediate end to the embargo on Gaza. All nine killed were Turkish.

The activists, in a flotilla of six ships, were attempting to sail into Gaza, which has been under Israeli blockade since the Islamic Hamas movement took control of the territory in 2007. Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by the U.S., European Union and Israel.

Knives, Clubs

Israel said its soldiers were attacked with knives and clubs after boarding a vessel and seven soldiers were wounded, including by gunfire, after activists aboard the ship managed to grab Israeli firearms. Israel has said it has by now expelled all the campaigners with the exception of some still in hospital.

“It was about 4 a.m., and I had gone to bed,” Mankell said. “We thought we had at least two hours before we got to Israeli waters.” He said the Mavi Marmara was about 1 kilometer away from the ship he was on.

“We could see lights and helicopters and we could see gunfire but we couldn’t know what was happening,” Mankell said. “It was only three days later when we boarded the Lufthansa flight that I found out people were killed.”

His own ship, Mankell said, was boarded about an hour later by Israeli navy commandos.

Machine Guns

“The idea was not to make any resistance,” Mankell said. “They were carrying machine guns. They came to the bridge and told us we had to go down. Some older people were a bit slower. One of them was attacked by an electric gun in his arm, very painful. Another was shot with a rubber bullet.”

Palestinians, backed by the United Nations and human- rights groups, say the restrictions on food imports and construction materials have created a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Israel says it needs to control Gaza’s borders or Hamas will smuggle in material to make rockets and attack its territory.

“I thought the Israelis would use the navy to stop the convoy,” Mankell said. “But I thought they would do it nearer their territorial waters. I thought they would use force only against boats, not against people.”

Mankell, who is in Berlin to promote his new book, “The Troubled Man,” divides his time between Mozambique and Sweden. His wife, Eva Bergman, is a theater director and the daughter of the film director Ingmar Bergman, who died in July 2007.

The Wallander mysteries have sold more than 10 million copies worldwide, according to the website of his English- speaking fan club.

Author Henning Mankell Says Israel Committed Piracy (Update1) - Bloomberg.com

Idyllic · 06-03-2010, 12:22 PM

And it is right and moral to attempt to beat the life out of a man who is doing his job because you want to protect the "aid" on a ship, how is that right or moral, "aid" that could have been delivered another day, another way, without all this conflict and death, why the hostility, what were these "passive," "free Gaza," "humanitarian loving," "activist" trying to prove here. The soldiers being beaten in these images herewith were doing their jobs, simple as that, we may not like their jobs, they may not like their jobs, but to be killed over a shipload of "aid" that could have been delivered without all this death and drama had the "activist" simply gone to the port offered, why did they even attack the soldiers at all, unless there were ulterior motives involved here. Had the "activist" wished to be truly blameless then they should have just stood there and let the soldiers shot them, but then the "activists" knew that without provocation the soldiers would not have shot them, hell, they didn't even wait to find out, had the "activists" been truly passive and without malicious intent, then they could have legitimately cried foul when they were being shot for not beating the shit out of the soldiers, don't you think?

dippin · 06-03-2010, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

And it is right and moral to attempt to beat the life out of a man who is doing his job because you want to protect the "aid" on a ship, how is that right or moral, "aid" that could have been delivered another day, another way, without all this conflict and death, why the hostility, what were these "passive," "free Gaza," "humanitarian loving," "activist" trying to prove here. The soldiers being beaten in these images herewith were doing their jobs, simple as that, we may not like their jobs, they may not like their jobs, but to be killed over a shipload of "aid" that could have been delivered without all this death and drama had the "activist" simply gone to the port offered, why did they even attack the soldiers at all, unless there were ulterior motives involved here. Had the "activist" wished to be truly blameless then they should have just stood there and let the soldiers shot them, but then the "activists" knew that without provocation the soldiers would not have shot them, hell, they didn't even wait to find out, had the "activists" been truly passive and without malicious intent, then they could have legitimately cried foul when they were being shot for not beating the shit out of the soldiers, don't you think?

No, the aid could not have been delivered another day, another way.

According to the Israeli military itself, the cargo of the ships included toys, wheel chairs, and construction material. All things which are on the list of items Israel has embargoed.

aceventura3 · 06-03-2010, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

Which again ignores the issue...

Sorry that I don't get your point. I agree murder is wrong - and should be punished. Use of excessive force is wrong and should be punished. Innocent people being killed when they are trying to do good is wrong.

However, if someone knowingly leads innocent people into a situation that results in their death that is also wrong.

Instigating violence is wrong. Hate is wrong. Wanting to eliminate people based on religion or nationality is wrong.

I want to live in a world of peace. I want freedom for all people. I want people judged on the content of their character.

The situation in the ME with Israel is wrong - peace loving people need to be proactive and actively work to bring peace in the region.

What do you want?

silent_jay · 06-03-2010, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

And it is right and moral to attempt to beat the life out of a man who is doing his job because you want to protect the "aid" on a ship, how is that right or moral, "aid" that could have been delivered another day, another way, without all this conflict and death, why the hostility, what were these "passive," "free Gaza," "humanitarian loving," "activist" trying to prove here.

You know Idyllic, for someone who says

Quote:

.but to condemn either side right now, especially based on this incidence, when bigger hands may be at play here using these "activists," as well as possibly the Palestinians, the Gazan peoples, as puppets, will solve nothing.

You sure do condemn one side more than the other in each and every one of your posts in this thread, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, and still using "activists" like they weren't activists, yet we're still waiting for proof of this that was asked for on page oe, when you first condemned them as 'hate filled animals' and implied they were terrorists.

rahl · 06-03-2010, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

And it is right and moral to attempt to beat the life out of a man who is doing his job because you want to protect the "aid" on a ship, how is that right or moral, "aid" that could have been delivered another day, another way, without all this conflict and death, why the hostility, what were these "passive," "free Gaza," "humanitarian loving," "activist" trying to prove here. The soldiers being beaten in these images herewith were doing their jobs, simple as that, we may not like their jobs, they may not like their jobs, but to be killed over a shipload of "aid" that could have been delivered without all this death and drama had the "activist" simply gone to the port offered, why did they even attack the soldiers at all, unless there were ulterior motives involved here. Had the "activist" wished to be truly blameless then they should have just stood there and let the soldiers shot them, but then the "activists" knew that without provocation the soldiers would not have shot them, hell, they didn't even wait to find out, had the "activists" been truly passive and without malicious intent, then they could have legitimately cried foul when they were being shot for not beating the shit out of the soldiers, don't you think?

Please just come out and say it. the people on the ship were terrorists "activists", they had military weapons "aid" aboard. then you won't have to keep using quotation marks.

and for the record, they "israeli's" weren't doing their job, if they were they would have stopped or boarded the ship in israeli waters. They did commit an act of piracy though.

Willravel · 06-03-2010, 12:38 PM

This is Furkan Dogan. He was 18 years old when this picture was taken in November of 2008. He was born in 1991 in New York, but later moved to Turkey with his family. He was studying social sciences in Turkey. He wanted to help people. Today, his body was returned from Israel with four bullet holes in his head and one in his chest, all from close range. No IDF commandos were killed and the ones injured are expected to make a full recovery.

What was he killed for? He volunteered to be on an aid ship challenging the blockade preventing necessary building materials, food, clothing, and medical supplies from getting to Gaza. He wanted to help people. When the IDF boarded the vessel, according to eyewitnesses, they opened fire almost immediately. There's no evidence Furkan was armed when he was executed (I use that word only because he was shot four times in the head and once in the chest by trained military commandos).

Baraka_Guru · 06-03-2010, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl

Please just come out and say it. the people on the ship were terrorists "activists", they had military weapons "aid" aboard. then you won't have to keep using quotation marks.

Well, anyone who wants to free Gaza basically wants to free terrorists.

Amiright?

Xazy · 06-03-2010, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silent_jay

You know Idyllic, for someone who says

You sure do condemn one side more than the other in each and every one of your posts in this thread, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, and still using "activists" like they weren't activists, yet we're still waiting for proof of this that was asked for on page oe, when you first condemned them as 'hate filled animals' and implied they were terrorists.

Maybe because this one time out of a number of shipments they decided not to cooperate. And last few ships redirected by Israel had their aid all delivered peacefully. Maybe this shipment was out to make more of a statement no matter who got harmed rather then to just simply bring aid.

roachboy · 06-03-2010, 12:45 PM

or maybe the israelis fucked up this time.

what is so difficult to fathom about that?

06-03-2010, 09:48 AM	#121 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	ace, what are you on? the reason this is in the news is because the idf killed people in international waters. had the israeli military not bungled the operation---had they chosen to act otherwise---the flotilla would have in all probability got little attention in the mainstream press. of course the event was organized. free gaza organized the event. these things don't spring up like worms from cheese. free gaza is an easy organization to check out. they have a website. here is a link: Freegaza - News section if this is really what you think, i would argue that in your one-man campaign to not be a "useful idiot" has focused all its energy on the adjective. you might concern yourself more with the noun. just a thought. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

06-03-2010, 10:34 AM	#124 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	here's a clip and article about a uk activist who was on one of the boats the israelis raided. obviously not a single element in the idf's story is confirmed here. not one. British survivor of Gaza flotilla raid: 'Israelis ignored SOS calls' \| World news \| guardian.co.uk so no, i don't think this was "staged"---i think it was a colossal fuck up on the israeli part. but they fucked up with live ammunition so people ended up dead. it seems really obvious that this is the case. i can't understand the contortions people are willing to put themselves through to rationalize this. as for why someone would shoot....the problem is the situation itself. within such a situation, things get chaotic very quickly, snap decisions are made based on appearance as much as anything else and people can get hurt or killed very very easily. but what the article/clip above make clear is that the idf came on in an extremely violent, aggressive manner. and if it is the case that they handcuffed the ship's medical staff and refused to help the wounded....then we're back in classic colonial brutality mode, aren't we? the kind of ordinary disregard for human life so prevalent in the occupied territories and embodied in the siege. bad business. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

06-03-2010, 11:09 AM	#130 (permalink)
Cimarron29414 Still Free Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!	I am still trying to find any information to indicate why the commandos chose to raid in international waters rather than Israeli waters. It seems this is the strategic blunder that has made this such an issue. Whoever made that call is responsible for the outcome. __________________ Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

06-03-2010, 11:37 AM	#143 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	you might be interested in this: Both sides of flotilla story - Middle East - Al Jazeera English rather than simply relying on idf video. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

06-03-2010, 11:53 AM	#146 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	They were carrying almost a million euro in their pockets, Israel found spent bullet cartridges that are not used by Israeli troops. Also they found video on the boat filled with passengers injured by troops, but those films were filmed during daylight prior t the exact operation. Yes, I am sorry if I doubt al Jazeera reporters, and pollywood (we had a whole threat maybe a year back showing fake Palestinian videos). Israel has in the past diverted other aid, all peacefully, and delivered whatever aid was on those ships, this was not about delivering aid. Oh and lets not forget that there really are 10000+ rockets fired at israel in past 5 years imagine if it was your neighboring country doing it Last edited by Xazy; 06-03-2010 at 11:56 AM..

06-03-2010, 11:04 AM	#127 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	Explains it better then I can, but personally I have noticed bias in the media against israel for years, ny times, cnn, bbc I have seen dozens of times when they have published articles only for weeks later make a small retraction (if ever).

06-03-2010, 11:58 AM	#149 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	another segment, this from democracy now: Flotilla Passengers Huwaida Arraf of Free Gaza Movement and Retired Army Col. Ann Wright Respond to Israeli Claims on Deadly Assault this is in french, but here's another series of statements from people who were on the boats that were raided by the idf that totally contradict the idf's line. "Comme dans une guerre" - LeMonde.fr __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

06-03-2010, 12:22 PM	#152 (permalink)
Idyllic Psycho Location: My House	And it is right and moral to attempt to beat the life out of a man who is doing his job because you want to protect the "aid" on a ship, how is that right or moral, "aid" that could have been delivered another day, another way, without all this conflict and death, why the hostility, what were these "passive," "free Gaza," "humanitarian loving," "activist" trying to prove here. The soldiers being beaten in these images herewith were doing their jobs, simple as that, we may not like their jobs, they may not like their jobs, but to be killed over a shipload of "aid" that could have been delivered without all this death and drama had the "activist" simply gone to the port offered, why did they even attack the soldiers at all, unless there were ulterior motives involved here. Had the "activist" wished to be truly blameless then they should have just stood there and let the soldiers shot them, but then the "activists" knew that without provocation the soldiers would not have shot them, hell, they didn't even wait to find out, had the "activists" been truly passive and without malicious intent, then they could have legitimately cried foul when they were being shot for not beating the shit out of the soldiers, don't you think? __________________ you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

06-03-2010, 12:38 PM	#157 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	This is Furkan Dogan. He was 18 years old when this picture was taken in November of 2008. He was born in 1991 in New York, but later moved to Turkey with his family. He was studying social sciences in Turkey. He wanted to help people. Today, his body was returned from Israel with four bullet holes in his head and one in his chest, all from close range. No IDF commandos were killed and the ones injured are expected to make a full recovery. What was he killed for? He volunteered to be on an aid ship challenging the blockade preventing necessary building materials, food, clothing, and medical supplies from getting to Gaza. He wanted to help people. When the IDF boarded the vessel, according to eyewitnesses, they opened fire almost immediately. There's no evidence Furkan was armed when he was executed (I use that word only because he was shot four times in the head and once in the chest by trained military commandos).

06-03-2010, 12:45 PM	#160 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	or maybe the israelis fucked up this time. what is so difficult to fathom about that? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite