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Old 07-06-2003, 01:35 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Truth? or Lie?

Subject: The Clintons



This is interesting information considering the criticisms the Bush
Administration is taking for the War on Terrorism and Iraq.


Bill Clinton registers for the draft on September 08, 1964, accepting
all contractual conditions of registering for the draft. Given Selective
Service Number 326 46 228. Bill Clinton classified 2-S on November 17, 1964.

Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on March 20, 1968. Bill Clinton ordered
to report for induction on July 28, 1969. Bill Clinton dishonored order
to report and is not inducted into the military.

Bill Clinton reclassified 1-D after enlisting in the United States Army
Reserves on August 07,1969 under authority of Col. E. Holmes. Clinton
signs enlistment papers and takes oath of enlistment. Bill Clinton fails
to report to his duty station at the University of Arkansas ROTC, September 1969.

Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on October 30, 1969, as enlistment with
Army Reserves is revoked by Colonel E. Holmes. Clinton now AWOL and
subject to arrest under Public Law 90-40 (2)(a) 'registrant who has failed to report...remain liable for induction'.

Bill Clinton's birth date lottery number is 311, drawn December 1,1969,
but anyone who has already been ordered to report for induction is
INELIGIBLE!

Bill Clinton runs for Congress (1974), while a fugitive from justice
under Public Law 90-40.

Bill Clinton runs for Arkansas Attorney General
(1976), while a fugitive from justice.

Bill Clinton receives pardon on
January 21, 1977, from Carter. Bill Clinton is the FIRST PARDONED FEDERAL FELON ever to serve as President.

All these facts come from Freedom of Information requests, public laws,
and various books that have been published, and have not been refuted by Clinton.

THINK ABOUT IT! It is a strange turn of events. Hillary gets $8
Million for her forthcoming memoir. Bill gets about $12 Million for his
memoir yet to be written. This from two people who spent 8 years being unable to recall anything about past events while under oath!


This is an e-mail I received this afternoon. I'm going to look for the source.
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Old 07-06-2003, 01:40 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 07-06-2003, 02:19 PM   #3 (permalink)
don't ignore this-->
 
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but he didn't inhale! that's how i smoke my reefer
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Old 07-06-2003, 06:11 PM   #4 (permalink)
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you cant say he's a felon, he's never been convicted.
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Old 07-06-2003, 07:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
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He was a fugitive, a liar, and a generally bad person though. Just like his buddy Carter.
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Old 07-06-2003, 07:35 PM   #6 (permalink)
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You know, I saw Clinton speaking on CSPAN or something and thought "It'd be nice if he could have any effect on politics now that he's out of office, because he really was level-headed, unlike this illiterate cowboy we're stuck with." Then I realized that Clinton is an ex-President for life. His time is gone, and time spent arguing about him is wasted time.
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Old 07-06-2003, 07:47 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_Dude
you cant say he's a felon, he's never been convicted.
But ya'll are wantin' to elect his bitch prez! Tell me this is a nightmare!!!
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Old 07-06-2003, 08:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Im not posting this to defend Clinton by any means, but everyone has dings in their road. Im not taking away anything from anyone who hasnt served in the military either. The perspective is a little different when the President becomes the Commander in Chief truly giving orders. This is one area I think President Bush had a hell of clean up to do. Who ever did; it obviously worked.

www.cis.net/~coldfeet/document.htm


EDIT* I followed the link back to Tom Paine so there IS some bias here, but the records real.

Personally I have to put all my conspiracy theory beliefs aside for now because frankly all its does is seem to aggitate my life. I have to look at my past and understand its bad when I dont like any candidate.
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Old 07-06-2003, 08:36 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
But ya'll are wantin' to elect his bitch prez! Tell me this is a nightmare!!!
Who here actually wants Hillary for President?
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Old 07-06-2003, 10:11 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phaenx
He was a fugitive, a liar, and a generally bad person though. Just like his buddy Carter.
Carter?!
I have never heard anybody accuse Jimmy of being anything other then a mediocre president and an honorable man who works hard for good causes.
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Old 07-07-2003, 04:37 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Carter was a very mediocre president but has accomplished a lot since getting out of office. I believe he tried his best at the presidential thing, he just wasn't capable enough. I do believe his personal integrity is beyond reproach.
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Old 07-07-2003, 05:02 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Has anyone here ever done something they were ashamed of prior to turning 30? I use that age because Bush refused to answer any questions about what *he* did before he turned 30.

Seriously, get OVER Clinton. Sheesh.
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Old 07-07-2003, 06:09 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kadath
Who here actually wants Hillary for President?
Check The_Dude's sig.
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Old 07-07-2003, 06:27 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparhawk
Has anyone here ever done something they were ashamed of prior to turning 30?
Yea, but I'm not running for any public office.
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Old 07-07-2003, 07:44 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by seretogis
Check The_Dude's sig.
Yeah, I saw that in another thread and thought about coming back to edit that out, but was sidetracked by work.
I concede defeat on that one. I myself don't want Hillary for president.
Quote:
Originally posted by geep
Yea, but I'm not running for any public office.
But you are a human being, yes? I'm just as suspicious of a man who's apparently never done anything wrong as one who's done a thousand things. Everyone has a skeleton in his closet. We just have to judge those faults individually, when they arise. It would be nice if a politician could admit them upon entry into the public eye, but I'm realistic about people.
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Old 07-07-2003, 08:53 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by seretogis
Check The_Dude's sig.
you got that right!



originally posted by cetacean here

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ht=bush+resume

check out that thread.
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Old 07-07-2003, 09:05 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Too bad the story about Clinton is a LIE. Hint to everyone: before posting ANYTHING here, do a quick search on snopes.com.

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/politics/clintondraft.asp

Bush, however, absolutely deserted his post. So anyone horrified by the clinton story should check out this site:

http://www.awolbush.com/

So I suggest anyone who posted on this thread damning Clinton now tell the board how much they hate George Bush.

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Old 07-07-2003, 09:40 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Bush, however, absolutely deserted his post. So anyone horrified by the clinton story should check out this site:

http://www.awolbush.com/
I don't know how it worked back in the 70's (obviously not very well), but nowadays you can't just skip out on your weekend reserve obligations.

I followed this issue a while back, it pissed me off then, and it pisses me off now. Everyone who swore an oath and signed on the dotted line is held, and SHOULD be held, to a higher standard than ordinary citizens. I see a very small minority of folks in this great military of ours doing stupid shit and in general being dirtbags. To think of one of these guys going on and becoming president makes me want to fucking heave.

Having said that, it doesn't look like a case of AWOL, as he wasn't on active duty. If someone on here is more familiar with the reserve/guard aspect of the UCMJ, feel free to clue me in.
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Old 07-07-2003, 09:57 AM   #19 (permalink)
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so, this is a LIE
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Old 07-07-2003, 10:00 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Too bad the story about Clinton is a LIE. Hint to everyone: before posting ANYTHING here, do a quick search on snopes.com.

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/politics/clintondraft.asp

Bush, however, absolutely deserted his post. So anyone horrified by the clinton story should check out this site:

http://www.awolbush.com/

So I suggest anyone who posted on this thread damning Clinton now tell the board how much they hate George Bush.

Since you wanted to go to Snopes lets put what you read on here and let them decide! You did read it didn't you?

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/politics/clintondraft.asp

Origins: The
arc of future President Bill Clinton's activities in avoiding the military draft in 1968-69 are difficult to trace with certainty in regard to all the details. By the time the issue became one of national interest in 1992, reporters and biographers were faced with reconstructing a 25-year-old account from the decades-old memories of those involved; some of the key participants were already dead, and the one person who knew the whole story, Bill Clinton himself, often responded to questions on the subject with misleading or inaccurate information. Nonetheless, available documentation and personal memories have enabled writers to reconstruct the essential elements of the tale.

The story begins when eighteen-year-old Bill Clinton entered Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service in the fall of 1964. As required by law of all 18-year-old males, Clinton registered with the Selective Service System on 8 September 1964, and on 17 November 1964 he was assigned a 2-S (student deferment) classification by Garland County [Arkansas] Draft Board No. 26.

As American military involvement in Vietnam escalated in the mid-1960s, Clinton (like other male students his age) would reasonably have expected that his status as a college student would provide him with deferments from the draft for several more years, especially when in his senior year he was one of thirty-two American men selected to receive Rhodes Scholarships to study at Oxford University in England. However, on 16 February 1968 the federal government eliminated draft deferments for most graduate students, and Clinton would therefore no longer be eligible for additional student deferments after he completed his final term at Georgetown in the spring of 1968. Accordingly, his draft board reclassified him 1-A (available immediately for military service) on 20 March 1968.

In mid-1968 Clinton, who maintained that although he was not opposed to the military or war in general, he was morally opposed to the Vietnam War, began to seek ways of avoiding the draft. His first opportunity was provided through the political and social connections of his uncle, Raymond Clinton, and Henry Britt, a Hot Springs lawyer and former judge, who made arrangements with the commanding officer of the local Naval Reserve unit, Trice Ellis, to secure a billet for Clinton in the naval reserve:

The first relief Raymond Clinton and Britt found for Bill was a naval billet. This would not only give him more time -- he would not have to fill it until after the school year ended in June -- but it also would more likely keep him out of harm's way in the war. Trice Ellis, the local naval commander, said he was only too happy to accommodate the request, which he did not consider out of the ordinary, and was "impressed by the chance to enlist someone with a college education." He called the Navy command in New Orleans and secured a two-year active duty billet for young Clinton. Ellis assumed that Clinton would stop by that summer for an interview, but Clinton never did. When he asked Raymond Clinton what happened, Raymond told him not to worry, Bill would not be coming, he had been taken care of in another way.
The "other way" that had "taken care" of Clinton was a favor Henry Britt worked out with William S. Armstrong, chairman of the Garland County draft board, a favor that would provide Clinton with only temporary protection from the draft but would allow him to at least start his first year at Oxford without committing him to military service:

Britt called draft board chairman Armstrong, his close friend, and asked him, as he later recalled, to "put Clinton's draft notice in a drawer someplace and leave it for a while. Give the boy a chance." This is apparently what Armstrong did for several months. Another member of the Garland County Draft Board, Robert Corrado, later remembered Armstrong holding back Clinton's file and saying that they had to give him time to go to Oxford.
As Clinton biographer David Maraniss points out, although the deliberate delay in issuing Clinton's draft notice was undeniably a case of special treatment, it was by no means an unusual consideration granted to Rhodes Scholars:

Special consideration for Rhodes Scholars was not unusual around the country. The draft board in Alameda County, California, was so impressed by the achievements of the only black Rhodes winner that year, Tom Williamson of Harvard, that they granted him a graduate school deferment even though such deferments supposedly no longer existed. Darryl Gless, whose small home town in Nebraska was so proud of him that they strung a banner across the Main Street bank welcoming him back from his successful Rhodes interview, also was given a special deferment. Dartmouth scholar John Isaacson visited his draft board in Lewiston, Maine, and pleaded with them to let him go to Oxford, which they did. University of Iowa scholar Mike Shea went to England "happily but erroneously 2-S" for the first year. Paul Parish's mother in Port Gibson, Mississippi, received a letter from the governor telling her that Paul should go to England because they were trying to get an exemption for Rhodes Scholars. For virtually every member of the Rhodes class of 1968 there was a similar story.
Clinton set sail from New York to begin his first year at Oxford in October 1968. At the end of his first term in December, Clinton received a notice from the Selective Service instructing him to undergo an armed forces physical examination at a U.S. air base near London, which he took (and passed) on 13 January 1969. An Order to Report for Induction from the Garland County Draft Board followed three months later, but because the notice had been sent to England via surface mail, it was late in arriving, and the assigned reporting date had already passed. Clinton had begun another school term by then (the academic year at Oxford consisted of three terms rather than two semesters), and the regulations allowed students who received draft notices to finish out their current terms before reporting, but he would be obligated to report for induction after the end of the spring term unless he found an alternative by his new reporting date of 28 July 1969.

As Clinton headed home for Arkansas from England, his options for avoiding the draft were limited. He did not qualify for conscientious objector status because he did not have a history of opposing military service or war in general, only the Vietnam War specifically. The local Army National Guard and Reserve units were full. He took physicals for the Air Force and Navy officer programs but failed them both. (He was undersize and didn't possess the visual acuity required for the Air Force program, and he failed the Navy exam due to substandard hearing.) Clinton's only available out seemed to be joining the advanced ROTC program at the University of Arkansas, which had no quotas and was open to graduate students, but since Clinton had already received an induction notice, he would have to obtain the approval of Willard Hawkins, the state Selective Service director (an appointee of the Arkansas governor) to enter the program. Clinton called upon Cliff Jackson, an Arkansas College graduate who had been Clinton's acquaintance at Oxford and was now working for the state Republican party, and Jackson in turn asked his boss, the head of the Arkansas Republican party, to arrange a meeting between Clinton and Selective Service director Hawkins. Clinton also received assistance from Lee Williams, an aide to U.S. Senator J. William Fulbright of Arkansas (for whom Clinton had worked as a staffer while attending Georgetown University). Williams, a University of Arkansas Law School graduate himself, contacted the director of the university's ROTC program, Colonel Eugene J. Holmes, to help get Clinton enrolled. After "an extensive, approximately two-hour interview," Colonel Holmes agreed to accept Clinton into the ROTC program on 17 July 1969 (a mere eleven days before Clinton's 28 July induction deadline), although Clinton would not actually be able to begin the program until he completed the basic training camp the following summer. Clinton's draft notice was nullified, and his draft board reclassified him 1-D (reservist deferment) on 7 August 1969.

Clinton apparently did intend to begin attending the University of Arkansas Law School that fall, but sometime during the summer he changed his mind and decided to return for a second year at Oxford instead:

By Clinton's account, he talked to Colonel Holmes and gained permission to return to Oxford for the second year since the basic training that he was required to attend before beginning advanced ROTC would not start until the following summer. Holmes said later that he allowed Clinton to return to Oxford for "a month or two," but expected him to enroll in the law school as soon as possible. But a letter that Clinton wrote in December 1969 in which he apologized for not writing more often -- "I know I promised to let you hear from me at least once a month" -- is the strongest evidence that Holmes was aware of and approved Clinton's plan to go back to Oxford. The rest of the ROTC staff was expecting Clinton to enroll that fall. Ed Howard, the drill sergeant, later recalled that there was great anger when word spread through the ROTC office that Clinton was not on campus.
The details of Clinton's subsequent actions and decisions are murky, but sometime after returning to Oxford that fall (where he later helped organize London anti-war protests), probably between 1 October and 15 October 1969, he changed his mind again and asked his draft board to drop his ROTC deferment and reclassify him 1-A. Given recent policy changes (and rumors of upcoming policy changes) by the Nixon administration at that time -- graduate students who received induction notices were now allowed to finish out their school years rather than just the current terms; Nixon was said to be considering withdrawing 35,000 troops from Vietnam, temporarily suspending the draft, and changing the draft requirements so that only 19-year-olds would be called,and only "those draftees who volunteered for service there" would be shipped to Vietnam; and the administration was reportedly pushing for a draft lottery system based on birthdates which would expose eligible men to the draft for one year only -- Clinton may have calculated that he was not risking much by opting to drop his ROTC commitment in favor of a 1-A classification. As Clinton biographer David Maraniss surmised:

The proponderance of evidence leads in one direction: to the notion that with each passing week there were more signs that he might not get drafted even if he abandoned the deferment. If Clinton, acting through his stepfather, arranged to have the local draft board reclassify him 1-A after October 1, he would have known that it was largely a symbolic act providing him with the best of both worlds -- the ability to say he had given up a deferment, and the knowledge that even though he was 1-A again, he would not be drafted that year.
When the first draft lottery of the Vietnam era was held on 1 December 1969, Clinton's birthdate of 19 August was selected 311th, a number high enough to practically guarantee that he would not be drafted (and indeed he was not). A few days later, Clinton sat down and wrote the now-infamous letter to Colonel Holmes explaining his reasons for reneging on his agreement to enter the University of Arkansas ROTC program.

That Bill Clinton went to great lengths to avoid the Vietnam-era draft, that he used political connections to obtain special favors, and that he made promises and commitments which he later failed to honor, are all beyond dispute. However, the timeline quoted above jumps the tracks when it labels Clinton a "felon," because none of his actions, no matter how unethical or morally reprehensible, were illegal. When Clinton agreed in July of 1969 to enter the advanced ROTC program at the University of Arkansas, his draft board rescinded his induction notice and reclassified him with a reservist's deferment. That he later changed his mind in October 1969 and opted to forego the ROTC program and be reclassified 1-A did not constitute a "failure to report" or make him "AWOL," because he was not due to begin ROTC training until the summer of 1970, and he had the ROTC director's permission to return to England in the meanwhile. At the time of his 1-A re-classification in October 1969 the previous induction notice was no longer in effect, and he was not subsequently re-drafted.

If Clinton had still been obligated to report for induction, his draft board could have got him any time they wanted -- they certainly knew where to find him, yet no one ordered him to report to an induction center, no federal agents arrested him for draft evasion, and no MPs came and hauled him away for being AWOL, because he hadn't broken any laws, civil or military. Likewise, President Carter's executive order of 21 January 1977, which provided pardons and amnesty for those convicted or suspected of violating the Military Selective Service Act between 1964 and 1973 did not apply to Clinton because he committed no such violation.

Although what he did may not have been against the law, Clinton's broken promises and contradictory statements about his efforts to avoid the draft were prime examples of the kind of self-serving doublespeak that later earned him the sobriquet "Slick Willie." As Maraniss concluded in his Clinton biography, First in His Class:

"It was just a fluke," Clinton would say decades later, when first asked how he had made it through this period without serving in the military. But of course it was not a fluke. A fluke is a wholly accidental stroke of good luck. What happened to Clinton during that fateful year did not happen by accident. He fretted and planned every move, he got help from others when needed, he resorted to some deception or manipulation when necessary, and he was ultimately lucky.

What do you think?
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Old 07-07-2003, 10:09 AM   #21 (permalink)
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a little more googling and I found this summary of bush's activities on The Straight Dope. It's a little easier to follow than the badly-organized awolbush site:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030411.html

Cheney is an interesting one too. He got four student deferments while racking up two DUI's in school, then got a deferment when his wife got pregnant.

Just to step out of politics for a sec, it's sad that many of our leaders lack character. Clinton had lots of issues, but heck, he's gone, why retread them over and over and over again? Bush is a former alcoholic, former cocaine-using rich kid who used his connections to stay out of combat. Even Bush Sr. has his hands dirty with Iran-Contra, although at least he was in the war.

I guess it's true: Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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Old 07-07-2003, 10:15 AM   #22 (permalink)
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<b>liquordealer</b>

Let's stick to the original subject, which was "what do you think of this article?"
I think the original post you made had several intentional lies. While clinton may have done a few bad things, he did not commit a felony. He was not "pardoned by carter" as your article says, and it took some serious yellow journalism on the part of the original author to say that, since the date was referring to the date that carter issued an amnesty program for draft dodgers, while the author implies a direct presidential pardon from Carter to Clinton. Clinton may have dodged the draft, like, for example, Cheney, but he appears to have never done anything illegal to do it. The snopes post is interesting and shows that clinton wasn't always honest. The original post you made was just someone trying to smear clinton with half-truths and lies.

So, what do you think of that straight dope article? I'll post it here since you're posting the snopes one:

<i>
Dear Cecil:

Since you've already covered the Bush family's relationship to the Nazis (thank you), I thought maybe you'd also cover another timely topic. I've heard many times and in many places (but none mainstream that I can think of) that George W. Bush was AWOL for at least a year from the National Guard during Vietnam (after "jumping the line" to get a slot in the guard in the first place). For some reason (I'm not sure why), I have trust in the Straight Dope. Can you tell me/us if the person sending others to war in Iraq was really derelict in his military duties? How serious an offense would that behavior have been considered, generally, during the Vietnam war? Lastly, if George was actually AWOL, and that would have been the equivalent of a felony for most people, why haven't we been hearing about this issue? --Kerry J. Johnson, Bellingham, Washington
</i>
Cecil replies:

Yeah, the mainstream media have really kept a lid on this one. We wouldn't know anything about Bush going AWOL if it hadn't been for that obscure underground newspaper the Boston Globe, which broke the story nationally in May 2000. But you're right that coverage has been pretty thin. A few months after the 2000 election, former Bill Clinton adviser Paul Begala said he'd done a Nexis search and found 13,641 stories about Clinton's alleged draft dodging versus 49 about George W. Bush's military record. Why the disparity? We'll get to that. First the basics: Yes, it's true, Bush didn't report to his guard unit for an extended period--17 months, by one account. It wasn't considered that serious an offense at the time, and if circumstances were different now I'd be inclined to write it off as youthful irresponsibility. However, given the none-too-subtle suggestion by the Bush administration that opponents of our Iraqi excursion lack martial valor, I have to say: You guys should talk.

Here's the story as generally agreed upon: In January 1968, with the Vietnam war in full swing, Bush was due to graduate from Yale. Knowing he'd soon be eligible for the draft, he took an air force officers' test hoping to secure a billet with the Texas Air National Guard, which would allow him to do his military service at home. Bush didn't do particularly well on the test--on the pilot aptitude section, he scored in the 25th percentile, the lowest possible passing grade. But Bush's father, George H.W., was then a U.S. congressman from Houston, and strings were pulled. The younger Bush vaulted to the head of a long waiting list--a year and a half long, by some estimates--and in May of '68 he was inducted into the guard.

By all accounts Bush was an excellent pilot, but apparently his enthusiasm cooled. In 1972, four years into his six-year guard commitment, he was asked to work for the campaign of Bush family friend Winton Blount, who was running for the U.S. Senate in Alabama. In May Bush requested a transfer to an Alabama Air National Guard unit with no planes and minimal duties. Bush's immediate superiors approved the transfer, but higher-ups said no. The matter was delayed for months. In August Bush missed his annual flight physical and was grounded. (Some have speculated that he was worried about failing a drug test--the Pentagon had instituted random screening in April.) In September he was ordered to report to a different unit of the Alabama guard, the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group in Montgomery. Bush says he did so, but his nominal superiors say they never saw the guy, there's no documentation he ever showed up, and not one of the six or seven hundred soldiers then in the unit has stepped forward to corroborate Bush's story.

After the November election Bush returned to Texas, but apparently didn't notify his old Texas guard unit for quite a while, if ever. The Boston Globe initially reported that he started putting in some serious duty time in May, June, and July of 1973 to make up for what he'd missed. But according to a piece in the New Republic, there's no evidence Bush did even that. Whatever the case, even though his superiors knew he'd blown off his duties, they never disciplined him. (No one's ever been shot at dawn for missing a weekend guard drill, but policy at the time was to put shirkers on active duty.) Indeed, when Bush decided to go to business school at Harvard in the fall of 1973, he requested and got an honorable discharge--eight months before his service was scheduled to end.

Bush's enemies say all this proves he was a cowardly deserter. Nonsense. He was a pampered rich kid who took advantage. Why wasn't he called on it in a serious way during the 2000 election? Probably because Democrats figured they'd get Clinton's draft-dodging thing thrown back at them. Not that it matters. If history judges Bush harshly--and it probably will--it won't be for screwing up as a young smart aleck, but for getting us into this damn fool war.

--CECIL ADAMS


I anxiously await your thoughts.
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Old 07-07-2003, 10:22 AM   #23 (permalink)
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And like the writer of your article said - it's was, and is no big deal!
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Old 07-07-2003, 10:32 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I see, so, Clinton draft dodging is, as you say:

Quote:
This is interesting information considering the criticisms the Bush Administration is taking for the War on Terrorism and Iraq.
But Bush draft dodging is no big deal.

Just making sure I'm clear here.
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Old 07-07-2003, 10:33 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
And like the writer of your article said - it's was, and is no big deal!
How, exactly, is Bush's behavior no big deal and Clinton's is? Is it something as immature as "I don't like him, and I need a reason for not liking him?"
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Old 07-07-2003, 10:45 AM   #26 (permalink)
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He did the National Guard thing in the same spirit as most others looked at it - He did do his time - he got an honorable discharge. That is what is expected and he fulfilled that obligation. Did he fulfill it in the manner he should have? No, not by a long shot but it beat Slick Willie's record by several hundred miles
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Old 07-07-2003, 10:57 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Did he fulfill it in the manner he should have? No, not by a long shot but it beat Slick Willie's record by several hundred miles
Huh? Maybe we read different articles. Allow me to summarize:

<b>Clinton</b>
- Clinton is about to graduate college and has a Rhodes Scholarship, something only a very few people get.
- He pulls political strings so that he can can go to graduate school, because he doesn't want to serve in vietnam, a war which he has always publicly opposed.
- Later on, he fudges the facts about exactly what happened.

<b>Bush</b>
- Bush is about to graduate college
- He takes a pilots test and gets a score so low that he would never get in normally.
- His father pulls strings to get him into the air national guard and pull to the top of an 18-month long queue.
- Four years into his six years of service, he skips out, informing no one and ignoring his orders. He did this perhaps to avoid a random drug test that he might fail, since he was using cocaine around that time.
- He pulls strings to get an honorable discharge 8 months before his service is up.
- He fudges the facts afterwards.


Again, you said the clinton facts were interesting in light of the "criticisms" that bush is taking in the war on terrorism. How are the bush facts suddenly not interesting at all? So the fact that bush didn't fulfill his military obligations in the manner that he "should have" (your words) is meaningless?

Personally, you're losing all credibility with me on this one, LD. I've admitted that clinton did some ethically questionable things, but certainly not to the extent of your original post. The fact that you can't do the same for Bush makes you look hypocritical.
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Old 07-07-2003, 11:04 AM   #28 (permalink)
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LIke I said - he didn't fulfill his obligation in way that is acceptable to me, or probably to his father - but he did fulfill it! What both did was wrong - but to me, what Clinton did was immoral in light of what he has done since. Had he avoided the draft and just faded into the woodwork then no one would have given a damn! Had he rectified this with a decent presidency, no one would have given a damn! He didn't and now a lot of people give a damn. The only "fact" in the original post that appears to have been false is the Carter pardon - the rest was even substantiated by the Fark piece.

PS "This is an e-mail I received this afternoon. I'm going to look for the source." This was my only input on the original post -

"Subject: The Clintons

This is interesting information considering the criticisms the Bush
Administration is taking for the War on Terrorism and Iraq." is from the writer of the article.

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Last edited by Liquor Dealer; 07-07-2003 at 11:08 AM..
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Old 07-07-2003, 11:13 AM   #29 (permalink)
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i know what i would've done if i had to choose between being a rhoades scholar and entering the military.
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Old 07-07-2003, 11:17 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_Dude
i know what i would've done if i had to choose between being a rhoades scholar and entering the military.
Dude! No one is begrudging him the deferment to attend college in England - it is everything that came after he returned to the US that isn't setting well!
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Old 07-07-2003, 11:22 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kadath
But you are a human being, yes?
Depends on who you ask.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kadath
I'm just as suspicious of a man who's apparently never done anything wrong as one who's done a thousand things. Everyone has a skeleton in his closet. We just have to judge those faults individually, when they arise. It would be nice if a politician could admit them upon entry into the public eye, but I'm realistic about people.
I do agree with you. We have a tendancy as a society to get to hung up on a candidates past, when we should be more concerned with what he plans for the future.
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Old 07-07-2003, 11:22 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
LIke I said - he didn't fulfill his obligation in way that is acceptable to me, or probably to his father - but he did fulfill it!
I still don't see the distinction. Bush had his dad pull strings so he could get a cushy non-combat pilot position and avoid the military draft. He skipped out on his obligations and pulled strings to get an honorable discharge. Clinton had a Rhodes Scholarship and publicly opposed the vietname war, so he pulled strings to legally avoid getting drafted. Both of them spun the story a different way later.

Quote:
PS "This is an e-mail I received this afternoon. I'm going to look for the source." This was my only input on the original post -
I'm still waiting for you to admit that it was a made-up smear e-mail.


I've now shared some interesting information about Bush considering the criticisms the Bush Administration is taking for the War on Terrorism and Iraq.

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Old 07-07-2003, 12:15 PM   #33 (permalink)
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"Bill Clinton receives pardon on
January 21, 1977, from Carter. Bill Clinton is the FIRST PARDONED FEDERAL FELON ever to serve as President."

As I have now stated twice, the above is the only part of the whole thing that isn't corroborated by your stuff from:

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/politics/clintondraft.asp

Am I missing something?
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Old 07-07-2003, 12:26 PM   #34 (permalink)
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The part about 'he is now considered AWOL' for 1, Liquor Dealer. I've seen post after post of yours relentlessly bashing Clinton. Why don't you take that same paranoia and transfer it to all elected officials. As much as your Republican leaders would like you to believe, they are not as clean as a preacher's sheets.
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Old 07-07-2003, 12:28 PM   #35 (permalink)
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From what I gather and have learned no one is clean. It seems that anyone who is will never get into the oval office. The Beltway would eat them alive.

SO it boils down to which candidate is going to tax me more.
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Old 07-07-2003, 12:35 PM   #36 (permalink)
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it always goes back to the reefer doesn't it
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Old 07-07-2003, 12:40 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Am I missing something?
Yes, you're missing the point that if you give up the felony charge, the whole e-mail comes crashing down. I'll take it on point by point:

Quote:
Bill Clinton registers for the draft on September 08, 1964, accepting
all contractual conditions of registering for the draft. Given Selective
Service Number 326 46 228. Bill Clinton classified 2-S on November 17, 1964.
True, and certainly not a problem. Clinton did this and then entered Georgetown University, which gave him an automatic deferment.

Quote:
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on March 20, 1968. Bill Clinton ordered
to report for induction on July 28, 1969. Bill Clinton dishonored order
to report and is not inducted into the military.
Mostly false. Clinton graduated from Georgetown and therefore was reclassified automatically in March. He publicly opposed the war in vietnam AND had a scholarship in england. So, he pulled some political strings and got the draft board delay his eligibility. As the article says, this was special treatment, but hardly unusual for a Rhodes scholar. Bush receive similar treatment with his entry into the Texas National Guard. I have no idea what "dishonored order to report" means but I see no "order to report" happening at this point.

Quote:
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-D after enlisting in the United States Army
Reserves on August 07,1969 under authority of Col. E. Holmes. Clinton
signs enlistment papers and takes oath of enlistment. Bill Clinton fails
to report to his duty station at the University of Arkansas ROTC, September 1969.
Partially true. Clinton got permission directly from Holmes not to report. Holmes corroborates this in the article.

Quote:
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on October 30, 1969, as enlistment with
Army Reserves is revoked by Colonel E. Holmes. Clinton now AWOL and
subject to arrest under Public Law 90-40 (2)(a) 'registrant who has failed to report...remain liable for induction'.
False. In fact, clinton requested to have his deferment removed and inserted himself back into the draft voluntarily. Bush was certainly more AWOL than clinton, in that he failed to report for his service and was already on active duty. AWOL itself is a misnomer here. You can't be on leave when you aren't serving in the first place.

Quote:
Bill Clinton's birth date lottery number is 311, drawn December 1,1969,
but anyone who has already been ordered to report for induction is
INELIGIBLE!
The facts are true, his name was drawn, but the end part is untrue. See above.

Quote:
Bill Clinton runs for Congress (1974), while a fugitive from justice
under Public Law 90-40.
False. Again, the accusation is untrue. If he was a "fugitive from justice" how could he run for congress? he wasn't exactly hard to find. This is just silly.

Quote:
Bill Clinton runs for Arkansas Attorney General (1976), while a fugitive from justice.
False. Again, see above. They must have some pretty inept military police in Arkansas to not find "fugitive" clinton.

Quote:
Bill Clinton receives pardon on
January 21, 1977, from Carter. Bill Clinton is the FIRST PARDONED FEDERAL FELON ever to serve as President.
False. As i said before, not only is this false, but it's also misleading. Jimmy carter passed legislation pardoning draft dodgers. This legislation didn't apply to clinton since he didn't dodge the draft.



If you grant, which you admitted, that clinton did not commit a felony, then he also did not violate law 90-40, whatever that is, which is the felony he was accused of committing. If he didn't violate law 90-40, then all of the points unravel.

As I said before, Clinton pulled strings to avoid the draft. Bush pulled strings to get out of his enlisted Texas National Guard service, and pulled strings to get his cushy pilot assignment in the first place. Out of the two of them, Bush looks more guilty to me. He walked out on his unit and wasn't seen for more than a year.

It looks like neither of them committed a crime. Out of the two, though, Bush looks like the one who is less patriotic. Clinton had publicly stated that he opposed the vietnam war, like many americans, and he was voting his conscience. Bush looks more like a spoiled little rich kid who didn't want to follow through on his obligations.

I can't believe that you're so proud that you can't admit that you're wrong. Clinton was no angel, but that e-mail is some of the worst yellow journalism I've seen. Next you'll be bringing up the "hanoi jane fonda" myth and trying to defend it.
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