Tully Mars

Several news outlets are reporting Biden won but Palin exceeded expectations. CNN has it at "Overall, 51 percent of the debate watchers said that Biden did the best job in the debate, while 36 percent gave the nod to Palin

Analysis: Palin gets back on track, but Biden wins debate - CNN.com

I was out and didn't watch any of it but the last 20 min. or so. From what little I did see I thought Palin did fairly well, holding her own for the most part. But it didn't seem like she was answering questions, just repeating memorized talking points. I saw some clips this morning and was taken aback at some of her responses. At one point she said "No, I'm not answering that question." Then went on to talk about what "mavericks" McCain and her are.

So who do you think won and why?

And do you think this will have an effect on the election?

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asaris

I thought Biden had a solid victory overall. He actually answered the questions, he gave specifics without seeming overly wonky, and did a decent job of connecting emotionally. Palin didn't make any big gaffes, but frequently just didn't answer the question, and seemed nervous and overly folksy (would someone PLEASE tell her to stop winking. It makes her look like she has a tic.) There were a couple of her answers where I just winced. She thinks that Cheney wasn't a powerful enough VP? I've always thought that their claim that Obama/Biden are waving the 'white flag of surrender' is overstated. Same with the bit about Michelle Obama not loving her country. At the end of it all, I doubt it changed anything, doubt that it convinced anybody who's still unconvinced to go either way.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

roachboy

the extent to which palin and biden were so differently framed as to almost not be in the same event from the points of view particular to the nitwits who populate the 24/7 cable news universe--you know, the people who perform that vital service of chewing your food before you get to it so as to save you the time of chewing for yourself---is kinda amazing. biden was positioned as being in the debate-event and so it is relevant how he did certain debate-related things, like answer questions. palin is positioned as being in some separate space, locked into a boxing match with her own image. so the consensus is that in the Epic Battle which pitched sarah palin against "sarah palin" sarah palin did reasonably well. that way, the trainwreck that was palin's dissociative interactions with biden are factored out.

so i guess that it's possible for folk who allow themselves to be hoovered into the system of pre-chewing can watch what to us vulgar beings appears to be a single event and see in it numerous parallel events which have, being parallel, no particular contact with each other.



and no, it makes no difference to me. it's just strange.

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Glory's Sun

Biden won the debate.. and he probably connected more on a personal level than did than mrs hockey mom.

Palin continually ducked questions and wanted to go back to energy policy when really she doesn't have a fucking clue in that area either. Granted she did was she was supposed to do and not hurt the base.. but she didn't do anything to sway independents. I don't think Biden did much to sway independents either, but people can look at him and feel more comfortable.

All this being said.. it was quite a boring debate and I was actually the most disappointed in Gwen Ifill. She sucked at moderating.

Halx

When cornered, Palin does in fact become increasingly adorable.

Joe Biden's 3rd person comments were hilarious, from a casual observation. His little choke-up moment was questionable.

The gay marriage topic was ridiculous.

I felt like Biden seriously kicked ass in the debate. I found Palin's responses to mean nothing to me, but Biden was tough, passionate and direct. I rolled my eyes whenever Palin tried to be sassy or folksy. I don't want an act. I want a debate!

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Rekna

I'm not sure why his choke up would be questionable. He lost his wife and 1 year old daughter in a car accident. His two boys were critically injured and he didn't know if they would make it. They did make it and he raised them alone. What was bad was Sarah Palin's response "We need change and John and I are both Mavericks". She didn't even acknowledge his loss and came off as a cold hearted bitch.

Tully Mars

My memory fades between clips of last night and the part of the debate I actually saw. But yes the VP statement floored me, just floored me. I think she claimed the Constitution gives a whole bunch of powers to the VP and she plans to use those powers. Either I suck at Constitutional law (which is of course completely possible) or she does. Difference, in my mind, being I'm not running for VP. I was also stunned when she said McCain "would build an embassy in the divided city of Jerusalem." Oh yeah the Middle East isn't in enough turmoil, let's build an embassy in the one spot to almost certainly make things worse. Seems like an obvious ploy to get Jewish voters

IMO, some of her answers (when she gave answers) were really just strange.

I don't see how this debate changes anything in the race. But how many VP debate have?

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Glory's Sun

Her VP duties answer was just so completely wrong. She has no clue what a VP actually does or even what branch it serves in. Hell even the republicans who were interviewed after the debate didn't understand her position on that.

Nothing she said in her foreign policy answers proved she knew anything so her remark about an embassy was no surprise.. and it was no surprise she kept saying "I'll do what McCain says" (roughly speaking) ..

I have yet to see any maverick qualities from either one claiming to be one.

I especially liked when Biden pretty much dismissed the Maverick notions.. saying he's known McCain for years and he's no maverick on any important issue. That had to resonate with independents.

Tully Mars

I saw her repeat the line of "when he said the fundamentals of the economy were strong he was talking about people and the US workers."

Does any one actually believe that? I sure as hell know I don't.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

abaya

I've heard the word "maverick" so many times recently that I have almost forgotten what it actually means. What is this, Top Gun? Why the hell does being a "maverick" somehow mean that you are fit to run the United States of America?

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Glory's Sun

they are using this line to try and distance themselves from Bush policy. They say they are different and will stop the partisan bullshit yada yada yada..

it's not working.

abaya

Well, it's not only not working, but it's not true... and worst of all, it's FUCKING ANNOYING.

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Baraka_Guru

This was particularly frightening:

A plan for having Iraq take over their own military and security is a white flag of surrender?

What exactly is McCain's plan?! From what she said, it's either contradictory or vague (or both).

Palin tossed out logical fallacies in place of direct answers.

That's frightening. It implies that her team is either hiding something or is incompetent.

I think Biden handled himself well in light of this. It could have turned into a circus if he was after blood.

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filtherton

I think Palin is a robot.

Do you guys know how difficult it is to program convincing AI?

Catdaddy33

I think Biden did exactly what he needed to do, just ignore Palin and go after his buddy McCain which he knows much much better than Palin does and he proved it. Sure there were some distorted facts in his thrashing of McCain but at least he provided facts, Palin just read her cards and still got some of it wrong. I will say she did better than I thought she would but I think that's what the McCain camp wanted, so they could declare victory cause she didn't have any "Tina Fey" moments..

After the dust settles all this did was keep the base republicans and some of those leaning McCain in his court since Palin didn't make any major flubs. I doubt many drifted over from Obama to McCain cause she smiled, winked, and said "you betcha!!". Although the 3rd grade class she gave a "shout-out" to may vote for her if they have a in-classroom vote.

The next Presidental debate is Tuesday here in Nashville and should be a good one.

kutulu

I think the question of who won is relative to which party you are in. However, the end result is that it was a net loss for the McCain campaign.

Palin showed that she can act tough. She didn't stumble at all and she said the things that a hard right-winger wants to hear. If your concerns were that she cracks under pressure then you should be relieved.

What she didn't do was answer the questions and show the world that she has substantial understanding of the issues. If there was a question that she didn't like, she started talking about energy and taxes.

As for Biden, I think he demonstrated that he has an exceptional understanding of the issues. However, this should come as no surprise to anyone. He seemed imprersonal at first and started to say things that could connect him to voters towards the end.

All in all, both sides appealed to their base but neither side did much (if anything) to appeal to an undecided voter. If this was a close race, that would be fine for both parties but McCain is quickly losing the race. Voting has begun (I got my early ballot yesterday) and they need big wins to move things back their way.

Tully Mars

Or both?

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

roachboy

dont' you find it odd that one can consider answering questions (biden) and not answering questions (palin) as equivalent in a *debate* as "ways to appeal to the base"?

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

Palin is a moron. She couldn't beat a freshman on the debate team. Of course she lost, anyone saying otherwise has succumb to partisan fever. Which is incurable.

Biden could have done a lot better. I, personally, would not have given Palin any quarter. I would have called her out every single time she clearly didn't know what she was talking about or didn't actually answer a question. Biden decided to try and treat her like his equal. Dumb.

Biden: B-
Palin: what's lower than F?

snowy

Biden clearly won. He answered questions directly, with a clear grounding in facts, whereas Palin avoided questions or redirected them, and pulled the answers she did have out of her ass. It was difficult at times to make heads or tails out of what she was saying, even with closed captioning on.

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Catdaddy33

Well, John says that G would be lower than F and his record speaks for that G (see next card), I mean I know energy policy I live in Alaska for gosh sakes!! *wink*

abaya

Expulsion.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
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Lasereth

Glory's Sun

Winnar

Catdaddy33

Awesome find, I now have new wallpaper for my work PC..

Lasereth

Roger Ebert (my self-proclaimed butt buddy) is an excellent writer and covers many topics of the world despite them having nothing to do with movies. He wrote an article about the VP debate that is definitely worth reading:

You didn't ask me about the debate, but... - Roger Ebert's Journal

Ourcrazymodern?

"There's something wrong with the world today; I don't know what it is..."

I think I have a clue: nobody won the debate.
Neither one of them and not us.
If you can't give a straight answer to a reasoned question, you shouldn't be on the ticket.

Overall, however, I think Biden did a better job of it.

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hunbun0704

Sarah Palin was prepped well and maybe her bumpkin (sorry, 'folksie') way will gain her votes. As a woman, I am sick of the winking at the camera and saying dog gone it. And of all things, to do this during a debate?
I find it amazing that with such low expectations of Sarah Palin, anything she does that somewhat intelligent (albeit rehearsed and memorized) wins her a big gold star with the public. And she could be our president. I think I just puked a bit in my mouth. gotta go.

Derwood

He knew that if he put her feet to the fire it would get spun as "Mean Entrenched Senator Picks on Cute Alaskan Hockey Mom" by the press. He was 100% right in focusing his attacks on McCain and playing nice with Palin

Frosstbyte

I agree completely with this. In some ideal world where being "elite" is a good thing when selecting the leader of the country, you'd absolutely want to rip her up. But that's not what is going to win the PR campaign. She would've gotten a lot of sympathy if he'd done that and he would've garnered a lot of ill will.

Not for any good reason. But people are silly like that.

kurty[B]

I'm with Derwood. If Biden actually went off on Palin, while entirely entertaining and worthwhile, I think it would have hurt the Obama/Biden campaign. FoxNews would have ran with that one so hard claiming he was attacking her because she's a woman and all. I think Biden played his debate cards just right. Gave solid, straightforward answers most of the time, and kept his composure.

Sure, Palin did better then expected, but expectation were so low. When she kept winking at me I was pretty convinced she wanted me to buy her a beer after the show. Being a fellow winker I got a kick out of telling my girlfriend Palin wants to have a threesome with us, but outside of that the winking combined with the "you betcha, dontcha know, and golly gee" comments did absolutely nothing for me.

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aceventura3

After reading some of the comments above, I am surprised we were watching the same debate. Given that there is no objective means to determine who won, other than polls where the participants respond based on their gut feelings, I look at it in terms of the most important issues to me. regardless about how you feel Palin answered or avoided certain questions - she had major themes that she wanted to communicate and she more clearly got her points on the table. Bidden's main theme was that McCain is Bush III and McCain is no maverick. As Palin pointed out this was looking backward and I agree. Also, Bidden failed to address the issue of Obama being in lock-step with his party 96% while stating the he and Obama would be able to work "across the isle" and are mavericks themselves. In my view, I have not seen Obama take a stand against his party on any issue, nor have I seen Bidden do it. Both McCain and Palin have. McCain is one of the Senators with the highest rate of voting against his party.

Then Palin raised a few important points that Bidden left dangling. He never addressed the consequences of failure in Iraq if we withdraw prior to victory. And, He failed to reconcile his problems with Obama during the primary given his current position of being in complete support of Obama.

In my view of debates, making lots and lots of small points while leaving the biggest points unaddressed indicates a poor debate performance.

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Willravel

I still think he could have been harder on her. Quite frankly anyone that thinks the vp only deals with puppies and flowers all day (a.k.a. people that think asking Palin questions that she can't answer is "sexist") isn't going to be convinced by a debate. It's the independents and undecideds he should be concentrating on. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that seeing Palin fail miserably isn't going to win her any votes.

Not only that, but there are a lot of brilliant, wonderful woman leaders in this country that I want to be able to vote for some day. I want them to be hit just as hard as the men, and pulling punches with Palin simply demonstrates the double standard. I may not have supported Senator Clinton's candidacy for POTUS, but at least I respected her intelligence and ability. I know she'd make a decent president, never stumped on current events, political theory, or softball questions. Governor Palin's candidacy for VP is really setting women back, and I find it depressing. Hitting Palin hard sends a message:
"women, we want you to run for president and vice president, and we're going to treat you with the same respect as the men".

asaris

How is this looking backward? Last time I looked, Bush was still president. And you misspelled Biden throughout your post.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

aceventura3

I think people with this view miss the point. If a candidate goes into a debate they go into the debate with an objective. The candidate's objective may not be the same as the moderator. A good debtor recognizes this conflict and manages it. Palin was far more aggressive in terms of accomplishing her objectives. In the first half of the debate I was not sure Bidden had an objective - he seemed to be going with the flow. Palin is a winner and focused on what she needed to do, had a strategy, and executed it. Bidden did not appear to have a strategy. Given a lack of strategy I don't know how to measure his execution, he was bureaucratic. I think Palin demonstrated the difference between executive level experience and bureaucratic level experience. I will take executive level in executive office any day over a bureaucrat.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

connyosis

Would someone for the love of God tell her it's not pronounced nucular? Please.

Apart from that, Biden won clearly. He gave straight answers and I agree with other posters that it was a good idea to go after McCain and not Palin. Doing so would probably make people think he was a bully and turn some undecided voters away. Palin just repeated the same boring "answers" over and over again and kept avoiding to answer a bunch of questions.

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Glory's Sun

Why would anyone disagree about failure in Iraq?? There is no disagreement there.. the disagreement lies in the fact that one party wants to let the Iraqi government take control and the other wants to continue a pointless war. To say that Palin had any correct stance on foreign policy is bullshit and it's simply a matter of sticking with party lines at that point. She never once had any factual basis or theory on how to resolve the situation in Iraq other than "John McCain is a war hero blah blah blah"

Biden is not exactly known for laying down to anyone in the senate. He will stand up to anyone regardless of party affiliation. However, we have McCain who only stands up to his party on issues that frankly, nobody cares about. When it comes to the war and the economy.. he always votes with his party and it's proven to be a stupid stance in all areas.

How the hell can anyone say she clearly put her points on the table?? She kept going back to energy and the fact she was a Governor of an energy state. Big fucking deal. Obama's plan is clearly a better plan, regardless of spending in that area.

She tried to put taxes on the table and did a piss poor job of outlining anything. She just kept saying that Obama has an $800 million spending package he wants to employ... how is that involved in taxes? Ok.. I get it, higher spending = higher taxes right? WRONG. Put energy programs and education programs out there and..oh my god! there are new jobs!

what a load of shit.

aceventura3

McCain is not Bush.
Palin is not Chaney.
Bush is a lame duck.
The Iraq war is winding down.
The economic circumstances we face today are not the same as when Bush took office.
McCain has his agenda for the future, which includes some new stuff.
The world is going into an economic recession.
Democrats now control Congress compared Bush's first 6 years.
Many Republicans don't even like McCain and felt he backed into the nomination.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

I have never been a god spellir.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Glory's Sun

Palin does = Cheney when she stands there and says that she thinks his view on how the VP position is used is the same as hers.. face it, she doesn't have a clue.

The economic situation is different now than when Bush stepped into office because Bush fucked it up.

Iraq is winding down? Then what's the problem with a withdrawl??

Catdaddy33

Biden's plan was to attack McCain and ignore Palin, which was safe and smart. No one (should be) is voting for Vice-President they are there to represent the top of their tickets. Palin repeated "talking points' given to her and decided to have her own "debate" by ignoring the moderator and the debate format that was agreed to my McCain months ago.