Amaras

I'm starting this thread to see what the TFP's participants outside the US have to say about their upcoming election.
For my part, I'm Canadian, and the sheer size of the US, economically, population, etc...
compared to us makes their elections far more interesting than our own.
I could link innumerable articles about how many Canadians are far more interested in
what is going on South of the border than our own upcoming elections, but take my word for it, we are actually more interested in their results than own, this time around.
Some observations;
-Often when a Democrat states their preference, a Republican will call them Liberal.
From my perspective, our Conservative Prime Minister (Stephen Harper) is conceivably as liberal as Obama seems to be. What is wrong with liberalism, anyway?
-Why can't the States, as the supposed bastion of Democracy, get away from the two-party system? This might be the answer to my own question, but it seems to me that the amount of power vested in those two interests alone creates a fairly inflexible system insofar as allowing Candidates to vote their conscience, or express truly new ideas.
-Why is it that Democrats are automatically seen as fiscally irresponsible? Reagan increased the US debt in a way not seen since the Depression, and Bush Jr.'s overseas adventures are draining resources unbelievably (including the will to serve in US military).

This is not meant to knock the US in any way, shape, or form. I love the fact that they are out there, trying to do what they think is right, most of time.
I just don't get how an otherwise decent, relatively well educated population gets hooked time and time again by jingoism, simple labeling of opposing Candidates, and the obvious power grab by private interests.
The rest of the world might not like everything the US does, or even respect their choice of leaders, but it's ridiculous to say that as an entity they are not respected, or that it doesn't affect us.
What do you think?

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

Jozrael

Ha. Well-educated population.

I was educated yesterday by my coworker in how little Americans really know. I spent the better part of the day explaining basic politics, religion (not proselytizing, just -information-), and science to him. He thought that evolution occurred after the time of the dinosaurs, that Obama was Muslim, that Palin was Obama's VP pick, that McCain wasn't old, that there wasn't a single Christian that wasn't Catholic, and many, many more.

It made me sad.

Oh, and by the way, he told me I should run for President just because I understood all this. He thought I was brilliant and qualified to lead our country for knowing basic facts.

Charlatan

I too have known people like that Joz... I am never sure whether to be upset or just let it go.

Here's a question I have... I can understand that the two party system is useful for picking a President but I don't think it should matter when choosing the House or the Senate.

Why stick with only two parties there?

Having seen the Canadian Parliament in action (as well as other Parliaments) it seems that the more parties there are in the legislature the better.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Amaras

Jozrael; That dude needs to look at a book sometime, or a newspaper maybe. I've had conversation with folks from different areas of the world myself.
I just don't want this to descend into bashing the US pop. like some of my fellow Canadians are wont to do.
The fact that made you sad is a sign to me that your expectations are higher than his abilities (poor sap).

Charlatan, how is a two party system better for picking the Prez?

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

abaya

Who ARE these people??!!! I mean, seriously... I know they're out there, but just... wow. What are their backgrounds? Where did they go to school? What are their parents like? More alarmingly, what are their kids like? These are my sincere questions.

Meanwhile, this thread kind of applies me, since I don't like in the US... but I am an American, and I will be voting by absentee ballot. And yes, I am one of those Hated Democrat Voters (gasp!!!), and I have no idea how to answer your questions, either... because I have the same exact questions, especially since living in Europe for the last 18 months. Thing is, I don't really give a shit anymore if people think I'm an Elitist Liberal (tm)... they can call me whatever blows their skirt up. I'm still voting Obama, and I'm hoping to god that he's the one who will be stepping up to the White House when I move back to the US this Christmas.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Leto

Joz... It often surprises me as well when I find out that people that I work with on a daily basis are similarly uninformed. I find that I can get apologetic about my knowledge in some cases. But the fact is if you completed university, you are in a very small demographic.

I just saw research last week that stated that only 28% of Canadians born in Canada who finish high school actually go on to university. Not sure what percentage of these Canadians make up those that started high school. Compare this to about 70% of Canadians who were born out of the country. We see a motivating factor here. It is too easy if you are born here to coast through life, and let others make decisions for you.

I find the American political cycle to be more entertaining as I get older (funny, same goes for the NFL) as it is different from the same old Canadian dog & pony show.

Jozrael

Over 80% of americans graduated high school in 2000 (these numbers are all rising slowly, btw).
Almost 25% have at least a bachelor's degree.

Just as a summary of American education levels.

tisonlyi

I'm British (Scouse, we're just different) by birth.

When I was diagnosed with cancer at the age of 23, in Finland, existing in an ex-pat bubble surrounded by other Euros, Canadians, Australians, etc + US-ians, one of my American friends, a managerial accountant who had been living abroad for several years, said to me when I told lots of others in the bar at the same time:

"Man, I'm so sorry. I'm sure everything will be fine with your health" - (everyone always says that) - "but you'll never, ever get decent health insurance again"

Cue lots of people look at him puzzled.

He simply didn't understand that, as an EU citizen, no matter where I am within the EU I can be treated free of charge, no matter what the real cost is.

He was schooled a little, but didn't 'get it' for a week or so. The freedom that universal healthcare brings together with joining the club of other nations that have it. (they tend to extend the same benefits in mutual relations to other nations with universal healthcare)

I've always been fascinated and horrified by the US. Such a culture of extremes. Most of my 'heroes' are US-ians, but also an inordinate number of 'anti-heroes'.

I feel that the US system has to fail and be rebuilt, because it is, genuinely, a-historic.

The reason it is a-historic was to save Us (the rest of the world) from Leninism (particularly Stalinism) and the US from it's depression - which was never really conquered. The whole of their culture from the 40/50's onwards seems to have been utterly, insanely, narrowly skewed ever rightwards. Even to the point of changing the pledge of allegiance, debasing their economy, embracing Strausian (Good Guy! Bad Guy!) thought and consciously mortgaging their future in an attempt to keep up the fight.

The skewing of their spectacular society led them toward the outlasting-the-other victory over Stalinism circa '90, but at the cost of historicity. In any system where access to information is free(ish), a-historicity(?) will tend toward the failure of that incarnation of the state.

At the moment, in my opinion, we're witnessing the structural death of the winners of the cold war. Just as, post WW2, the world witnessed the death of the British Empire.

I could be wrong, but hey, i have an a-hole and an opinion.

Oh, and on the topic of education; graduates and pieces of paper mean little towards 'education'... that's a whole other topic though.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

highthief

Thirteen percent of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim - higher amongst conservatives and rural populations.

This despite the high profile falling out he's had with his former Reverand.
-----Added 29/9/2008 at 06 : 01 : 44-----
God love you, even if you're blue.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

tisonlyi

Rojo Rojisimo.

*fist in the air*

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Amaras

tisonlyyou,
I gotta say, I like what you wrote in when it came to the historical sense, BUT (you knew that was coming) I just don't see it as being very neat. England gave up it's Empire, yes, but isn't the most hated imperialist around. The U.S. stands to be just that. I worry that if the lack of understanding within the US about the rest of the world's view of them remains, it could get messy.
At least the UK went relatively gentle into that good night.

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

tisonlyi

Whosoever is the current, predominant imperialist power in your country/region/mentality is the worst imperial power EVAH!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111oneoneone

The UK did not go gentle, we were not a benevolent empire and many places in the world still hold great hatred for those who hold the passport, which:

"Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State requests and requires in the name of Her Majesty all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as may be necessary."

*vomits*

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Amaras

Mayhap tis merely my rose coloured glasses getting in my way. As a patriotic Canadian, I still feel like you guys are like my elegant cousins across the pond who produce all those lovely TV shows Hollywood steals.
The US feels like my loud, proud brood of cousins who can easily kick my ass as a pack, but are rather decent once you get to know them individually.
I can see how from your point of view the UK didn't go gently. Certainly not for those who were "...brought up to rule the waves."
Still, you are good friends with Israel. You get along with Egypt. Iran hates you only 2nd or 3rd most (behind you know who).
I hear the UK's influence in India every time I use customer service over the phone. And this is from a generation who wouldn't remember your direct influence. France hasn't surrendered to you in years. As a matter of fact, their national side kills yours on a regular basis over the last ten years, their ultimate gesture of respect.

How about this, then, from your perspective, is Obama or McCain better?

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

tisonlyi

You're both our children, the US and Canada, and in the end you should hate us for it, as we're coming to despise ourselves.

We now have a _c_onservative party talking about massive spending commitments for public works and cheerleading for banking bailouts of one sort or another.

*shakes head*

I'd prefer labour to stay in power for social reasons, but the Tories for their sheer lack of ability to ever manage an economy without driving, headlong, into the debt train coming the other way.

--

India has one common language, a derivative of one of their own several thousand years removed: English. Without it, there'd be no India, no Pakistan as single nation states (though perhaps a federation). That much is true.

I still feel that Gandhi is one of the greatest BRITISH heroes ever to have walked the planet. Why? It was his reliance on British 'fair play' and 'Christianity' as a man who was well grounded in the higher echelons of the UK for a time, that at first paved the way for his passive rebellion. Later he revelled in Indian religion and identity, but still, his early British training as a lawyer and a 'gentleman' shone through IMHO.

Imagine a non-violent rebel versus the French or Spanish Empires. Exactly.

If you think we went quietly into the night though, think about Amritsar. Ponder Burma. Malaysia. Honk Kong. Suez. The leftovers of Empire in S. Africa, Zimbabwe(yes, i know we opposed Rhodesian apartheid-independence), etc, etc. etc

We had a massive war to smash our Empire and thoughts of its upkeep from us, though we still did our best with reactionaries in power. (reactionaries! yes!)

The Empire brought much good, and begot much better, though it also brought untold misery and begot much worse.

Smallpox Blankets Canada or Smallpox Blankets United States

No power in the world is ever benevolent.

--

Oh, and Obama Vs McCain... Obama.

Only because I prefer leaders with IQ/EQ higher than chest measurements. In cm.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Amaras

The India comment I made referred to their prism through which many have been able to see Western culture is the West. The highly educated Indians I meet (which are the vast majority whom I meet) use English with a decidedly British slant (grammar, vocabulary).
Hence the influence as they enter this century as a country with an overlooked but massive potential (possibly greater than China, in my opinion). As to whose language precedes whose, I know English is a latecomer, no joke. Isn't Sanskrit the mother of all known major languages? I'm not sure.
As to no power ever being benevolent, I agree. As they act in their own self interest, giants swat a LOT of ants.
Are mitigation, participation, and communication mere bagatelles?
I think not.
My adopted cousins told me of many more horrors than just the plague visited upon the First Nation Peoples', as they call themselves. Children separated from their parents, forced into schools where whippings would occur if they spoke their mother tongue. 40+ years ago, that one in particular remains a bill that cannot be paid.
My cousin, a fairly large man and full blooded Algonquin, greets me with a hug and a wry "Okay, you are one white man who can stay on my land. The rest of you go home!"

Still, 30 years ago, could Obama have been a serious candidate?

I think our progress, while still bloody, is informed by those very mistakes of the past.
Serious discussion is occurring on alternative fuels in the US election debate. It's no longer left to the far, far, far out left, who essentially demand a return to an agrarian society.

Commercial spaceflight is around the corner.

I think Obama has a chance to be a tipping point (as defined in Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book of the same name) as a Connector & Salesman.

I think Clinton was starting in the right direction, until he was hounded by a hysterical right to sticking his dick into everything he saw. Well, okay, he would have done that anyway, but I could care less.

Then Bush.*Cue dramatic music*
Did the Presidency become something you bequeath to your retarded children? Unfucking believable.

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

tisonlyi

No doubt about it in my view, India has done the hard part in forging a real nation state from its disparate elements, even though there are 'unhappy' regions to say the least. At least they have votes, access to media and the right to express their will and identity freely.

China, on the other hand... still in the grip of fascism, and the fall from that is never easy.

All Western European languages except for Finnish, IIRC.

Quoting myself, and probably someone else, "The problem with power is power".

Makes sense to me.

Noooo, absolutely not. The Brits stole a march on the French by opening up schools, colleges and other such institutions to teach and encourage English as the *giggle* lingua franca for the mid-late 20th century. Whether it'll still be in such good form depends, for the most part I feel, on India and Pakistan.

Weird, huh?

I think there was a tad more going on than whipping.

Healthy kids were forced to play with TB infected kids, beating so severe they ended up in deaths, sterilisations without consent, etc, etc...

It really makes me feel sick.

Then I see idiots on British TV saying our Empire was benign. Not good.

Maybe, given the US's antipathy to Carter.

*raises telescope to blind eye socket*

I see no serious debate. I see posturing. (and sparkles)

Agrarian spaceflight?

Go, Daisy! Go!

MOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo......................

Representative democracy is a complete sham in most industrial nations, tbh.

I honestly believe that any form of first past the post in a population of more than a few million is tyranny. With single transferable vote PR, maybe 20m is the tariff.

Almost all nation states as currently formed are antiquated, creaking structures that need to be broken up into parts that govern themselves for the most part - under a supra-national body.

Not sure how that fits with my anarchist lilt.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Amaras

China, on the other hand... still in the grip of fascism, and the fall from that is never easy.

I wonder if their communism is just a version of the same bureaucracy that's been around for, oh, 3000 years or so.





Noooo, absolutely not. The Brits stole a march on the French by opening up schools, colleges and other such institutions to teach and encourage English as the *giggle* lingua franca for the mid-late 20th century. Whether it'll still be in such good form depends, for the most part I feel, on India and Pakistan.

Weird, huh?

And nukes. Let's not forget nukes. Lovely little attention getter, aren't they?



I think there was a tad more going on than whipping.

Healthy kids were forced to play with TB infected kids, beating so severe they ended up in deaths, sterilisations without consent, etc, etc...

It really makes me feel sick.

Then I see idiots on British TV saying our Empire was benign. Not good.

Rapes, starvation. Yeah, it's true. Wasn't just British, it was immigrant Poles, Germans, Scots here in Canada too.


Maybe, given the US's antipathy to Carter.

Very cute.



*raises telescope to blind eye socket*

I see no serious debate. I see posturing. (and sparkles)

True, but posturing will swing some money in the right direction.



Agrarian spaceflight?

Go, Daisy! Go!

MOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo......................

Nice. Make the cow really jump over the moon!!!

Representative democracy is a complete sham in most industrial nations, tbh.

I honestly believe that any form of first past the post in a population of more than a few million is tyranny. With single transferable vote PR, maybe 20m is the tariff.

Almost all nation states as currently formed are antiquated, creaking structures that need to be broken up into parts that govern themselves for the most part - under a supra-national body.

Not sure how that fits with my anarchist lilt. [/QUOTE]



So, does the UN have a chance as the supranational state?
-----Added 29/9/2008 at 11 : 45 : 47-----
How do I do that quote divider with responses thingy like you do so well?

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

tisonlyi

Go advanced, spot the markup in the message, in [these sort QUOTE of brackets] and ended [by this sort of /QUOTE brackets] and rinse/repeat through all the different bits.



UN as supra-national state.

No.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Amaras

Thanks for the tip.

UN is a big no.
Kind of like your EU thing, though.
On the ground level, is it relatively seamless? Meaning, do you feel like you have more bureaucracy or less in your daily life?
Also, I didn't bring it up earlier, but is your cancer in remission? Hope so. I would say pray, but that may seem a touch sanctimonious.

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

tisonlyi

The EU isn't perfect, but nothing will be and it's a work in progress.

I've lived in 3 'foreign' EU states for more than a couple of months, and really... All I have to do is tell the government of that state where I live. [Poland was a NIGHTMARE, but everything about Poland was, to a greater or lesser degree. Sorry Poles!]

Sounds scary, freaky, till you think about how they scale the numbers of doctors, nurses, hospitals, as well as local authority spending with those numbers.

Hey! people need numbers to work stuff out! Who knew!?!



Re: Cancer. Send your prayers elsewhere, but don't let them know. Studies show that those who know people pray for them actually fair worse than controls.

Plus, I'm not even being watched over anymore. Not regularly anyway. I occasionally blackmail a doctor to screen my bloods and send me for an ultra-sound. (psychosomatic pains leading to paranoia)

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Amaras

My Dad and my Uncle both had Prostate cancer. I'm 36, it's now time for the regular PSA tests as far as I am concerned.
Great to hear 'bout your situation, though!
I actually only started praying since my daughter was born (9 months +1 day ago). Never did before. Funny how that works, eh?

TELL ME you were waiting for that eh? from a Canadian! Or maybe an aboot!
Okay, I'm getting goofy. It's 12:30 AM and I've to take her somewhere tomorrow (nothing serious).
I'll be back tomorrow!

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

thespian86

I'm scared for the US right now. And in turn, afraid for my country.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Amaras

Something tells me it's Obama's election. Of course, I'm not exactly objective, but I have a feeling. I just hope that whatever happens, whoever is in power can get folks moving a and direction, rather than the hopeless muddle it seems to be. Naive, I know.

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928