Fiorina says Palin not ready - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Tully Mars · 09-16-2008, 10:38 AM

Co-chair of the McCain presidential campaign and former CEO of HP says Palin doesn't have enough experience to run HP. Yet she seems to think Palin's fully ready to be VP. WTF!?!

Quote:

Former Hewlett Packard CEO Carly Fiorina, a co-chair of the McCain presidential campaign and a chief economic surrogate for the GOP presidential candidate, said in a radio interview this morning that Sarah Palin doesn't have enough experience to run the Silicon Valley-based company Fiorina managed -- but ''that's not what she's running for.''

KTRS in St. Louis, Mo., scheduled the interview with her this morning with host McGraw Milhaven, who asks Fiorina if she thinks Palin has enough experience to run Hewlett Packard.

''No, I don't,'' said Fiorina. ''But you know what? That's not what she's running for. Running a corporation is a different set of things.''

Fiorina goes on to say that ''Sarah Palin has more executive experience than Barack Obama. ... Barack Obama has never made an executive decision in his life.''

''He has been in the U.S. Senate for a very short period of time,'' she said. Besides, ''She's the vice presidential nominee; Barack Obama is the presidential nominee.''

ratbastid · 09-16-2008, 10:42 AM

To be fair, Carly Fiorina didn't have what it took to run HP either. On her tenure HP lost half its market value and hemorrhaged jobs...

snowy · 09-16-2008, 10:42 AM

Carly Fiorina actually has very little room to talk in this situation as she basically ran HP into the ground during her time as CEO. She completely changed the corporate culture there and not for the better; when she was ousted employees threw parties to celebrate.

Carly's pretty much always been full of shit.

dc_dux · 09-16-2008, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

Carly Fiorina actually has very little room to talk in this situation as she basically ran HP into the ground during her time as CEO. She completely changed the corporate culture there and not for the better; when she was ousted employees threw parties to celebrate.

Carly's pretty much always been full of shit.

The $21 million golden parachute she received will buy alot of shit!

Tully Mars · 09-16-2008, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

Carly Fiorina actually has very little room to talk in this situation as she basically ran HP into the ground during her time as CEO. She completely changed the corporate culture there and not for the better; when she was ousted employees threw parties to celebrate.

Carly's pretty much always been full of shit.

I think she's full of shit too, The board tossed her out on her ass if I remember correctly. I just found it odd someone high up in the McCain camp would publicly state the VP Nom. isn't experienced enough to run a major company yet thinks she is experienced enough to possibly run the country. I think many on the right know she's an empty suit and isn't qualified. But that's not what they seem to care about. She's playing well in middle America and that's all that matters.

ratbastid · 09-16-2008, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

She's playing well in middle America and that's all that matters.

Who, Palin? That's not my read.

My read is, there were a WHOLE lot of Republicans who were downright DESPERATE for a reason to get behind McCain, but it wasn't going to be McCain himself. So the campaign found a charismatic, attractive, VERY conservative woman, and stuck her on the ticket. Now those who would have held their nose as they voted for McCain have something to rally around--no matter how in-denial they are about the woman's qualifications, positions, and intellect. The support for her is blind, unthinking, and brittle to assault. I believe that's what we're seeing.

Cynthetiq · 09-16-2008, 10:54 AM

I thought the title read FLORIDA says Palin not ready... very different topic.

Tully Mars · 09-16-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Who, Palin? That's not my read.

My read is, there were a WHOLE lot of Republicans who were downright DESPERATE for a reason to get behind McCain, but it wasn't going to be McCain himself. So the campaign found a charismatic, attractive, VERY conservative woman, and stuck her on the ticket. Now those who would have held their nose as they voted for McCain have something to rally around--no matter how in-denial they are about the woman's qualifications, positions, and intellect. The support for her is blind, unthinking, and brittle to assault. I believe that's what we're seeing.

I think her support is blind and unthinking, doesn't mean she's not playing well in middle America. IMHO, far too many voters cast their ballot for BS reasons and not on the issues. For what ever reason many people vote for someone they see as the common man/woman. Someone they see as an everyday person just like themselves. Personally I don't want a common person running the country. I want some one way smarter then the common everyday guy on the street type person. And yes, I've heard this argument somewhere else (Stewart, Carlin, Maher?) not trying to steal their thoughts, just agreeing with them.

guyy · 09-16-2008, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I think her support is blind and unthinking, doesn't mean she's not playing well in middle America.

She's already peaked. She's lost Tante, who saw her interview last week and now thinks, correctly, that she's a moron.

By the end of the day today, she may be forgotten.

Tully Mars · 09-16-2008, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyy

She's already peaked. She's lost Tante, who saw her interview last week and now thinks, correctly, that she's a moron.

By the end of the day today, she may be forgotten.

I think she's unqualified, under experienced and I disagree with her on just about every issue. I think she'd make an awful VP. I don't however think she's a moron.

Also by the way the right's base has embraced her I doubt she'll be forgotten by tomorrow, or anytime soon for that matter.

ottopilot · 09-16-2008, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I think her support is blind and unthinking...

IMHO, far too many voters cast their ballot for BS reasons and not on the issues...

Tully, I agree with your assertions on Palin, but this has always been my take on the Obama phenomenon. There seems to be this blind unthinking desire to elect someone, who by any comparative measure to Palin, is just as unqualified. Each one appealing to their base regardless of substance. Perhaps that's all that will matter in this election.

ratbastid · 09-16-2008, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

Tully, I agree with your assertions on Palin, but this has always been my take on the Obama phenomenon. There seems to be this blind unthinking desire to elect someone, who by any comparative measure to Palin, is just as unqualified. Each one appealing to their base regardless of substance. Perhaps that's all that will matter in this election.

Well, look, even if I were, for the sake of this post, to stipulate that their level of qualification is identical, there's unqualified and intelligent and willing to listen to differing positions and be a force for unification in the world, and then there's unqualified and uninformed and stupid and uninterested in positions other than her own and wanting to be a continuation of the imperial presidency we've lived in for eight years.

In other words: it's not the experience that she really fails at.

Tully Mars · 09-16-2008, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

Tully, I agree with your assertions on Palin, but this has always been my take on the Obama phenomenon. There seems to be this blind unthinking desire to elect someone, who by any comparative measure to Palin, is just as unqualified. Each one appealing to their base regardless of substance. Perhaps that's all that will matter in this election.

Well obviously I disagree with you on the issue of who's more qualified. But I'm more then willing to simply agree to disagree there.

I think you're right about it coming down to appealing to the base (on both sides) with a small play for those in the undecided column.

aceventura3 · 09-16-2008, 12:32 PM

Palin's husband says she is not qualified to fly his plane. Is that the next headline? What happened to - "government of the people , by the people, for the people?" Oh, stricken from the record due to the reference to God.

Quote:

It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Abe Lincoln

I think we are best served in government by people who share common values. Now that would be real change. Go Palin! I like her more every day and with every elitist criticism.

ottopilot · 09-16-2008, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Well, look, even if I were, for the sake of this post, to stipulate that their level of qualification is identical, there's unqualified and intelligent and willing to listen to differing positions and be a force for unification in the world, and then there's unqualified and uninformed and stupid and uninterested in positions other than her own and wanting to be a continuation of the imperial presidency we've lived in for eight years.

In other words: it's not the experience that she really fails at.

I understand your passion, but is what you've stated really accurate? Being passionate is one thing, but this tone in regard to Palin seems to perforate the current pro-Obama rhetoric. It's unseemly and reactionary, and appears more off-topic, trending toward less unifying or intellectual tones of his earlier message. The old Rove strategy to never accuse your opponent of your own weaknesses comes to mind in this case. The more his campaign slugs it out in the mud wars, Obama is looking less and less like the statesman above the frey that often he claims to be.

ratbastid · 09-16-2008, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Go Palin! I like her more every day and with every elitist criticism.

It's weird that criticisms of someone by people you don't like push you closer to that someone. I don't know, I just find that weird.

Do you know what her positions are? Do you agree with them? I'd think that would matter more than the question of who's talking against her.
-----Added 16/9/2008 at 04 : 37 : 28-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

I understand your passion, but is what you've stated really accurate? Being passionate is one thing, but this tone in regard to Palin seems to perforate the current pro-Obama rhetoric. It's unseemly and reactionary, and appears more off-topic, trending toward less unifying or intellectual tones of his earlier message. The old Rove strategy to never accuse your opponent of your own weaknesses comes to mind in this case. The more his campaign slugs it out in the mud wars, Obama is looking less and less like the statesman above the frey that often he claims to be.

I'm not speaking for Obama on TFP. My opinions are solely my own. And they are opinions.

aceventura3 · 09-16-2008, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

It's weird that criticisms of someone by people you don't like push you closer to that someone. I don't know, I just find that weird.

I tried to explain in another post somewhere, I was told I was a chauvinist. I thought I was a gentleman. I read in article where the author describe people like as gallant. Perhaps, I have seen too many Disney movies.

Quote:

Do you know what her positions are? Do you agree with them? I'd think that would matter more than the question of who's talking against her.
-----Added 16/9/2008 at 04 : 37 : 28-----

Yes. I do find it interesting that much of the criticism was not related to issue, but initially appeared to be sexist coming from people who pretend they are supportive of diversity.

roachboy · 09-16-2008, 01:29 PM

enough, folks.
make there be at least*some* content to this thread, *some* justification for it's sorry existence.
you can do it.
i'll be back.

asaris · 09-16-2008, 01:44 PM

What are your common values with Palin, ace? Or what values do you share with her that you do not share with Obama and Biden?

And I think it's obviously relevant what one of McCain's top advisor's says about Palin (and about McCain himself); if McCain's own people don't trust her to be competent, one heartbeat from the presidency, why should we?

hiredgun · 09-16-2008, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

Tully, I agree with your assertions on Palin, but this has always been my take on the Obama phenomenon. There seems to be this blind unthinking desire to elect someone, who by any comparative measure to Palin, is just as unqualified. Each one appealing to their base regardless of substance. Perhaps that's all that will matter in this election.

With respect, Obama was editor of the Harvard Law Review. He is at least extremely intelligent. Palin, by contrast, seems frightening uninformed on a host of important issues. Their governing experience may be comparable, but at least concede that much.

roachboy · 09-16-2008, 02:09 PM

i have to say that i'm surprised that mc-cain's campaign headed in this personality-driven direction because it requires not only that they control the direction of debate, but also that they control the terms. in this case, there's the "elitism" motif that can be appealed to--it's already implicit in ace's post earlier--a president "of the people" is, apparently, a strange idea since it is the republicans who would arrogate to themselves the prerogative of determining who "the people" are. and the campaign puts itself in the position of having to make that stick, too, otherwise they land in no-win exchanges like this.

very strange.
the campaign must have felt that they had no options.
this seems like scorched earth...

Tully Mars · 09-16-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

very strange.
the campaign must have felt that they had no options.
this seems like scorched earth...

I firmly believe that the general election and the primaries are completely different animals. But if you look back at the Dem primary Hilary really didn't start making ground until she used the "kitchen sink" strategy.

jorgelito · 09-16-2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I think you're right about it coming down to appealing to the base (on both sides) with a small play for those in the undecided column.

That's it right there. Both sides are fighting hard on the "base" front, and ignoring the other 20%. That could prove to be the undoing of one of them. It remains to be seen if one of the sides can figure out to stop this nonsense and get back to the actual election campaign.

ratbastid · 09-16-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

i have to say that i'm surprised that mc-cain's campaign headed in this personality-driven direction because it requires not only that they control the direction of debate, but also that they control the terms.

(It also requires that John McCain have a personality...)

jorgelito · 09-16-2008, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

It's weird that criticisms of someone by people you don't like push you closer to that someone. I don't know, I just find that weird.

Do you know what her positions are? Do you agree with them? I'd think that would matter more than the question of who's talking against her.
-----Added 16/9/2008 at 04 : 37 : 28-----

That's just the thing. Most people couldn't really tell you what the positions are, but rather, it's a "feeling". A significant portion of the population are comfortable with her and identify with her. That's a very powerful pull I think the Republicans have brilliantly exploited. I think this is what the Dems don't understand. The more they push, the further away they go and become more entrenched and convinced the Dems are condescending to them. TO me, it's a strategic error (or deliberate if that's what they are going for).

So no amount of shit flinging will change their minds. Better to focus on the rest and try to appeal to them on a similar level.

ratbastid · 09-16-2008, 02:51 PM

Evidently her own presidential candidate doesn't rise to her personal level of business acumen either:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CNN Political Ticker

Fiorina: McCain can't run a company either
Posted: 06:20 PM ET

(CNN) — Hours after top McCain aide Carly Fiorina said Republican VP candidate Sarah Palin isn't qualified to run a major corporation, the former Hewlett-Packard CEO said she doesn't think John McCain is either.

In comments that are strikingly off message as the Arizona senator attempts to position himself as the candidate best positioned to fix the country's economic woes, Fiorina said in an interview on MSNBC Tuesday running a Fortune 500 corporation is not the same as running the country.

“Well, I don't think John McCain could run a major corporation, I don't think Barack Obama could run a major corporation, I don't think Joe Biden could run a major corporation," Fiorina, a top McCain advisor, said.

"But, on the other hand, a major corporation is not the same as being the president or the vice president of the United States," she continued. "It is a fallacy to suggest that the country is like a company. So, of course, to run a business, you have to have a lifetime of experience in business, but that's not what Sarah Palin, John McCain, Joe Biden, or Barack Obama are doing."

Fiorina was president of Hewlett-Packard until her high-profile ousting in 2006 after the company's uneven performance. Her comments Tuesday were immediately circulated by the Obama campaign as part of its continued effort to paint McCain as a candidate who lacks understanding of economic issues.

“If John McCain’s top economic advisor doesn’t think he can run a corporation, how on Earth can he run the largest economy in the world in the midst of a financial crisis?" said Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor. "Apparently even the people who run his campaign agree that the economy is an issue John McCain doesn’t understand as well as he should."

Fiorina made similar comments earlier Thursday to a St. Louis radio station when she was asked if Palin was qualified to run a company like Hewlett-Packard.

“No, I don’t,” Fiorina answered. “But that’s not what she’s running for. Running a corporation is a different set of things."

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Fiorina: McCain can’t run a company either - Blogs from CNN.com

I see the point she's trying to make here, but this attempt at damage control just sounds even worse.

Tully Mars · 09-16-2008, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Evidently her own presidential candidate doesn't rise to her personal level of business acumen either:

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Fiorina: McCain can’t run a company either - Blogs from CNN.com

I see the point she's trying to make here, but this attempt at damage control just sounds even worse.

Her comments leave me with a better understanding why she had problems running HP.

aceventura3 · 09-16-2008, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asaris

What are your common values with Palin, ace? Or what values do you share with her that you do not share with Obama and Biden?

The most basic value we have in common is an optimistic outlook on life in general and the country in particular. Obama/Biden's basic premise is that everything is wrong with this country. I believe most of the things are right with this country, not perfect, needing some changes and improvements, but I basically think our country is on the right track. I find it very difficult to buy into the doom and gloom message of the Democrats.

Quote:

And I think it's obviously relevant what one of McCain's top advisor's says about Palin (and about McCain himself); if McCain's own people don't trust her to be competent, one heartbeat from the presidency, why should we?

I personally think the competence argument is over-rated. I never made issue of Obama's competence/experience and I won't make an issue of it with Palen. I don't think representing "the people" and/or doing what is right is difficult and requires special skills. I was watching one of the political talk shows today, and the host put it well when he talked about the difference between Dems and Repubs - I do vote for the "who" (meaning the person and their character) and not the "what" (issue positions). I actually would have voted for Hilary Clinton over McCain in the general because I think Clinton has been more consistent and honest about her positions than McCain is. Clinton is predictable, McCain is not. In my view McCain was the worst choice for Republicans, Palin is the only reason I would vote for him. He is "political" to his core. I think the same of Obama and I think Bidden is the worst of the bunch.

Charlatan · 09-16-2008, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

The most basic value we have in common is an optimistic outlook on life in general and the country in particular. Obama/Biden's basic premise is that everything is wrong with this country. I believe most of the things are right with this country, not perfect, needing some changes and improvements, but I basically think our country is on the right track. I find it very difficult to buy into the doom and gloom message of the Democrats.

I personally think the competence argument is over-rated. I never made issue of Obama's competence/experience and I won't make an issue of it with Palen. I don't think representing "the people" and/or doing what is right is difficult and requires special skills. I was watching one of the political talk shows today, and the host put it well when he talked about the difference between Dems and Repubs - I do vote for the "who" (meaning the person and their character) and not the "what" (issue positions). I actually would have voted for Hilary Clinton over McCain in the general because I think Clinton has been more consistent and honest about her positions than McCain is. Clinton is predictable, McCain is not. In my view McCain was the worst choice for Republicans, Palin is the only reason I would vote for him. He is "political" to his core. I think the same of Obama and I think Bidden is the worst of the bunch.

That's funny, I don't see the Democrat's message as being one of Doom and Gloom but rather one of hope and trust in America's ability to change the things that need changing.

I guess we are listening to different messages.

I agree that the competency thing is a distraction. That said, I find it interesting that your vote for McCain is tipped in his favour by the choice of Palin as his running mate. Do you really feel that the VP has that much of an effect on the core business of the oval office?

jorgelito · 09-16-2008, 05:10 PM

Well the VP has recently become more of an interest due in part to Cheney's "activities". Also, maybe people look at the VP as a sort of tie breaker when it comes to the candidates.

ratbastid · 09-16-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

The most basic value we have in common is an optimistic outlook on life in general and the country in particular. Obama/Biden's basic premise is that everything is wrong with this country. I believe most of the things are right with this country, not perfect, needing some changes and improvements, but I basically think our country is on the right track. I find it very difficult to buy into the doom and gloom message of the Democrats.

My god! Perspectives are SUCH interesting things!

I can't FATHOM how you could find the GOP message positive and optimistic. It sounds cynical and paranoid to me. And I can't imagine how you can hear "hope" as doom and gloom. The cognitive dissonance for me in reading this paragraph is nothing short of stunning.

I'll also note that, in the question of "is the country on the right track?" you're in a marked minority. You're entitled to that opinion, of course. But you're nuts.

Direction of Country

Here are the most recent numbers (from a GfK Roper poll Sept. 5-10):

Quote:

"Generally speaking, would you say things in this country are heading in the right direction or in the wrong direction?"

Right Direction: 26%
Wrong Direction: 70%
Unsure: 4%

Paq · 09-16-2008, 10:41 PM

just an aside here..but i was thinking......ok, it hurt, but i tried

Anyway, i look at it this way. If someone gets through the primaries for their respective parties...then, IN GENERAL, people think they have enough executive experience or ideas or 'something' that will make them a good president. You may or may not agree with their positions or whatever, but, again, IN GENERAL, the level of person that it takes to get this far in a presidential race means they will likely be able to at least 'handle the job". I mean, even coolidge did it while taking 4 hr naps during the day and saying very little.

So, i think this 'executive experience' card is kinda bullishit, honestly. Mccain/obama are both qualified....now here is my issue:
nobody voted for which VP candidate they picked. Heck, mccain could have picked his neighbor's brother if he so chose. THAT person has not been tested or tried, merely tapped, and generally, the VP selection shows the first real decision the person makes as a presidential candidate.

my point: the VP had to do nothing but 'be there' for the candidate to tap. SOOooooooo, you would think the candidate would choose someone he/she thought was experienced enough.... If not, then you start to question the candidate who made the selection. In this case, people are questioning mccain's thought processes and they are starting to see that he is desperate and pandering and trying to turn the race away from the issues and more towards a battle of personalities, and he now has the freshest personality on the stage. I think people will eventually see through this.

All of this brought to you by Juan Valdez and his wonderful coffee

as for the 'right or wrong direction'..... anyone who looks at the state of affairs in the US today and thinks this is a good direction to be going..please..please look around. I'm not generally a pessimist, but there are more than a few questionable positions we are all in....

ratbastid · 09-17-2008, 03:59 AM

Who could possibly have seen the next part coming?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CNN Political Ticker

Fiorina's comment called 'Biden-like'

From CNN Chief National Correspondent John King

(CNN) — Top McCain-Palin official Carly Fiorina is facing criticism from some within the campaign for a day of what they call "very Biden-like" comments, after the former Hewlett-Packard CEO told two separate interviewers that neither member of the Republican ticket would be capable of running a company.

Democratic VP nominee Joe Biden is noted for his off-the-cuff gaffes.

Asked by a St. Louis radio station whether she thought Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin could run a company like Hewlett-Packard, Fiorina responded: "No, I don't.

“But that's not what she's running for. Running a corporation is a different set of things."

Asked about that remark on MSNBC, she made the same unprompted assessment of the GOP presidential nominee. "I don't think John McCain could run a major corporation."

She also said she did not believe Democrats Barack Obama or Joe Biden had the right business background either.

But with the economy center stage in the campaign, the words that gave Democrats easy fodder to attack the Republican ticket.

A top McCain official contacted by CNN said, on condition on anonymity, "No big deal, but not how you get on the surrogate all-star team. Very Biden-like."

“This campaign source said Fiorina would be discouraged from additional media interviews.

Another top campaign adviser was far less diplomatic.

"Carly will now disappear," this source said. "Senator McCain was furious." Asked to define "disappear," this source said, adding that she would be off TV for a while – but remain at the Republican National Committee and keep her role as head of the party’s joint fundraising committee with the McCain campaign.

Fiorina was booked for several TV interviews over the next few days, including one on CNN. Those interviews have been canceled.

A third source said "it was another bad day for her, and important people are mad because the timing is horrible… But I would not necessarily buy the Siberia storyline."

Fiorina has forced the campaign off message before. In July, she told reporters women often express frustration over the fact many health insurance plans cover Viagra but not birth control medication.

"Let me give you a real, live example, which I've been hearing a lot about from women. There are many health insurance plans that will cover Viagra but won't cover birth control medication. Those women would like a choice," she said.

It was a topic McCain wasn’t as keen to talk about. "I certainly do not want to discuss that issue," he said, when reporters asked if he shared that view.” That comment, and the pause that preceded it, captured headlines for days.

There are Central American dictators who can "disappear" people too, by the way...

You got to love how they made hay by turning it into a jab at Biden, though. Good ole' GOP--even when they're falling on their faces, they're stabbing people in the gut.

ottopilot · 09-17-2008, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hiredgun

With respect, Obama was editor of the Harvard Law Review. He is at least extremely intelligent. Palin, by contrast, seems frightening uninformed on a host of important issues. Their governing experience may be comparable, but at least concede that much.

I once inherited a team of "technical professionals", some with multiple degrees, some self taught. Out of the two Ph.D's I had working for me, one was brilliant, grounded, and highly productive... the other brilliant, but had no work ethic as applied to the business at hand, essentially worthless and hard to get rid of. I had a few with graduate degrees that were very productive and innovative, some were marginal at best. One of my best team members had no formal training and had worked his way to a leadership position.

Obama is highly intelligent and "well schooled", but appears to be less interested in the jobs he's had than promoting himself. His actual time spent on the job and his sad record of productivity would get him fired in a "real job". He's great at running for president.

In contrast, Sara Palin is a hard worker that appears to take serious anything she has done. She is earthy, she didn't go to the best schools, she wasn't an editor of an elitist ivy-league publication, she wasn't running for the next office the day after being elected as mayor or governor, she hasn't written 2 memoirs while having the lowest attendance and voting record in the first 2 years on the job, she has been responsible to her constituents.

Yes Palin is a political lightweight, but even more so if you value scholastic and political window-dressing over substance. Obama is the guy with all the degrees on his fluff resume that shows up and goofs off, perhaps writing more memoirs, and you're stuck with him until you can find a way to can his ass. Palin is a worker, sharp, a quick study, and apparently somewhat effective. You're not fooling anyone by saying she's not intelligent, that's just baseless schoolyard trash-talk.

So are either "ready" for the office of the presidency? Sure, why not. But it's Obama vs. McCain and all the focus is on comparing Obama to Palin. That's a huge problem for the golden boy who doesn't seem to be able to close the deal. Fluff.

Poppinjay · 09-17-2008, 05:46 AM

Thanks for your lazy grasshopper - worker ant analogy. It shows how "lightweight" the thought process is behind supporting Palin.

Quote:

Obama is highly intelligent and "well schooled", but appears to be less interested in the jobs he's had than promoting himself. His actual time spent on the job and his sad record of productivity would get him fired in a "real job". He's great at running for president.

What? He's lazy? He's only good at running for president? Do you know his record as a community organizer? Tell me Otto, how does a lazy person graduate Harvard Law Magna Cum Laude and become president of the Harvard Law Review?

Because it's an elitist school, right? And those schools are so easy to get degrees from, if you're the "right kind" of person.

How about his 11 years as a professor at the Uni of Chicago? Oh, right, another elitist school where laziness is reward and hard work is mistrusted.

How about 12 years in a private practice that included successfully argiung a supreme court case? They only hire lazy lawyers to do that.

If anybody invades the country, Otto, I want the elite troops to protect my castle. You are welcome to all the hard working D-students for yours.

ratbastid · 09-17-2008, 05:55 AM

otto, I think you're confusing ambition with intelligence. She's ambitious. She's feisty. She's scrappy. I wouldn't accuse her of having a lot of this ephemeral quality we're calling "substance", though. And she certainly doesn't currently have a sufficient handle on the world situation to lead the country. She reads a teleprompter well, though. She could probably be trained, and could potentially be a very satisfactory puppet for her version of Karl Rove who would be pulling the strings.

You really think she has what it takes to be the President under her own steam? President of the United States? Of America?

roachboy · 09-17-2008, 05:56 AM

wait---so what you're saying, otto, is that having an ivy league education is a PROBLEM?

how exactly does this work?

be careful what you say.

ottopilot · 09-17-2008, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

Thanks for your lazy grasshopper - worker ant analogy. It shows how "lightweight" the thought process is behind supporting Palin.

What? He's lazy? He's only good at running for president? Do you know his record as a community organizer? Tell me Otto, how does a lazy person graduate Harvard Law Magna Cum Laude and become president of the Harvard Law Review?

Because it's an elitist school, right? And those schools are so easy to get degrees from, if you're the "right kind" of person.

How about his 11 years as a professor at the Uni of Chicago? Oh, right, another elitist school where laziness is reward and hard work is mistrusted.

If anybody invades the country, Otto, I want the elite troops to protect my castle. You are welcome to all the hard working D-students for yours.

Glad you enjoyed story time, but reading is FUNdamental. Please try it some time. The theme of my analogy was about being effective and responsible regardless of background... both words with meanings AND with a context. If you must sum it up in single terms, I would never say Obama is lazy regarding self promotion or interests... more like irresponsible to the people he has been charged to represent.

I had both effective and responsible persons who were schooled or self-made. I had boat-anchors with GED's and Ph.D's... one of which was a professor at a prominent engineering school... couldn't deal with the real.
-----Added 17/9/2008 at 10 : 16 : 48-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

wait---so what you're saying, otto, is that having an ivy league education is a PROBLEM?

how exactly does this work?

be careful what you say.

Yes, be careful what you say.

roachboy · 09-17-2008, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Obama is highly intelligent and "well schooled", but appears to be less interested in the jobs he's had than promoting himself. His actual time spent on the job and his sad record of productivity would get him fired in a "real job". He's great at running for president.

can you translate this bit of gibberish then?

ottopilot · 09-17-2008, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

otto, I think you're confusing ambition with intelligence. She's ambitious. She's feisty. She's scrappy. I wouldn't accuse her of having a lot of this ephemeral quality we're calling "substance", though. And she certainly doesn't currently have a sufficient handle on the world situation to lead the country. She reads a teleprompter well, though. She could probably be trained, and could potentially be a very satisfactory puppet for her version of Karl Rove who would be pulling the strings.

You really think she has what it takes to be the President under her own steam? President of the United States? Of America?

I'm not defending Palin as much as pointing out Obama's lack of substance. Obama is a talking head, pure and simple... (of course in my humble opinion). All this attention to make Palin look bad or inexperienced is only bringing more attention to Obama's enormous lacking qualities. I could really care less about Palin as a candidate, more about how it's all being played.
-----Added 17/9/2008 at 10 : 27 : 45-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

can you translate this bit of gibberish then?

Strange request coming from ... well ok.

gibberish translation: check his attendance and voting records (IL state senate and US Senate), time spent on actually writing legislation vs. memoirs written... all public record, I'm not going to litigate my point. Time he actually showed up for the job, poor responsibility and effectiveness to his constituents, etc. Prime target to get fired in the real world. He's brilliant, but he doesn't do his job. He doesn't serve the people.

09-16-2008, 10:42 AM	#3 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	Carly Fiorina actually has very little room to talk in this situation as she basically ran HP into the ground during her time as CEO. She completely changed the corporate culture there and not for the better; when she was ousted employees threw parties to celebrate. Carly's pretty much always been full of shit. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

09-16-2008, 10:54 AM	#7 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I thought the title read FLORIDA says Palin not ready... very different topic. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

09-16-2008, 01:29 PM	#18 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	enough, folks. make there be at leastsome content to this thread, some justification for it's sorry existence. you can do it. i'll be back. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-16-2008, 01:44 PM	#19 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	What are your common values with Palin, ace? Or what values do you share with her that you do not share with Obama and Biden? And I think it's obviously relevant what one of McCain's top advisor's says about Palin (and about McCain himself); if McCain's own people don't trust her to be competent, one heartbeat from the presidency, why should we? __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

09-16-2008, 02:09 PM	#21 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i have to say that i'm surprised that mc-cain's campaign headed in this personality-driven direction because it requires not only that they control the direction of debate, but also that they control the terms. in this case, there's the "elitism" motif that can be appealed to--it's already implicit in ace's post earlier--a president "of the people" is, apparently, a strange idea since it is the republicans who would arrogate to themselves the prerogative of determining who "the people" are. and the campaign puts itself in the position of having to make that stick, too, otherwise they land in no-win exchanges like this. very strange. the campaign must have felt that they had no options. this seems like scorched earth... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-16-2008, 10:42 AM	#2 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	To be fair, Carly Fiorina didn't have what it took to run HP either. On her tenure HP lost half its market value and hemorrhaged jobs...

09-16-2008, 05:10 PM	#30 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Well the VP has recently become more of an interest due in part to Cheney's "activities". Also, maybe people look at the VP as a sort of tie breaker when it comes to the candidates. __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter

09-16-2008, 10:41 PM	#32 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	just an aside here..but i was thinking......ok, it hurt, but i tried Anyway, i look at it this way. If someone gets through the primaries for their respective parties...then, IN GENERAL, people think they have enough executive experience or ideas or 'something' that will make them a good president. You may or may not agree with their positions or whatever, but, again, IN GENERAL, the level of person that it takes to get this far in a presidential race means they will likely be able to at least 'handle the job". I mean, even coolidge did it while taking 4 hr naps during the day and saying very little. So, i think this 'executive experience' card is kinda bullishit, honestly. Mccain/obama are both qualified....now here is my issue: nobody voted for which VP candidate they picked. Heck, mccain could have picked his neighbor's brother if he so chose. THAT person has not been tested or tried, merely tapped, and generally, the VP selection shows the first real decision the person makes as a presidential candidate. my point: the VP had to do nothing but 'be there' for the candidate to tap. SOOooooooo, you would think the candidate would choose someone he/she thought was experienced enough.... If not, then you start to question the candidate who made the selection. In this case, people are questioning mccain's thought processes and they are starting to see that he is desperate and pandering and trying to turn the race away from the issues and more towards a battle of personalities, and he now has the freshest personality on the stage. I think people will eventually see through this. All of this brought to you by Juan Valdez and his wonderful coffee as for the 'right or wrong direction'..... anyone who looks at the state of affairs in the US today and thinks this is a good direction to be going..please..please look around. I'm not generally a pessimist, but there are more than a few questionable positions we are all in.... __________________ Live. Chris

09-17-2008, 05:55 AM	#36 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	otto, I think you're confusing ambition with intelligence. She's ambitious. She's feisty. She's scrappy. I wouldn't accuse her of having a lot of this ephemeral quality we're calling "substance", though. And she certainly doesn't currently have a sufficient handle on the world situation to lead the country. She reads a teleprompter well, though. She could probably be trained, and could potentially be a very satisfactory puppet for her version of Karl Rove who would be pulling the strings. You really think she has what it takes to be the President under her own steam? President of the United States? Of America?

09-17-2008, 05:56 AM	#37 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	wait---so what you're saying, otto, is that having an ivy league education is a PROBLEM? how exactly does this work? be careful what you say. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite