Cynthetiq

I was talking to a friend about this today, would Condoleezza Rice been a better choice for the McCain ticket? (Her declining the position notwithstanding or not wishing to run for any public office.)

A Black woman, knowledge of foreign policy, she understands national security was against the war in Iraq.

I think she would have been an interesting pick. What do you think?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

telekinetic

100x better

if i hear my local talk radio play the 'pitbull with lipstick = hockey mom' soundbite one more time i'm going to rip my deck out of my dash and smash it.

Whether or not your'e Republican and/or agree with her, I think most can agree that Condoleezza actually would be a smart choice, has better (if slightly unorthodox) presidential qualifications and experience, and probably do a pretty decent job representing the Republican party in office.

ratbastid

Oh man, now SHE could have been plausibly spun into a formidable VP candidate. There's a lot of support for her on the right--she's seen as The Sensible One, even among people who are DONE with GWB. I think she would have provided a lot to the ticket.

Would I personally have preferred having her as VP instead of Palin? Tough call. I think probably.

roachboy

well, if what i've pieced together about the mc-cain campaign's assessment of the situation is correct, rice would not have worked for two basic reasons---she's way way too closely associated with the bush administration, which would have erased mccain's room to manoever out from under it and position himself as whatever he is trying to position himself as ("a maverick")--and she wouldn't have had anything like the same sort of effect that palin seems to have had on the far right base of the republican party.

on the other hand, rice would not have set into motion what appears to be happening according to aggregated polls not done by television networks, which is to push independents toward obama.

Pollster.com: Omero: The Palin Effect, Preliminary Results

this may or may not end up being meaningful as a result analysis, both because they're polls (the devils in the details) and because it's early in the game yet.

that aside, i would think rice a far better and smarter choice than palin.

but it didn't happen. of the two reasons that i can figure out, i suspect the first was the big one--that and i wonder if rice would have accepted in any event. if i were her, i'd want a vacation.
and if i was ambitious, i wouldn't want to get involved with a ticket likely to loose, particularly one that would be more likely to loose because of me (this loops back to the campaign's assessment of its own situation)

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

telekinetic

Rice's Academic Accomplishments:
BA in political science, University of Denver
Master's Degree in political science, University of Notre Dame
PhD in Political Science, Graduate School of International Studies at Denver
Stanford Assistant Professor of Political Science, 1981-1987
Stanford Associate Professor of Political Science, 1987-1993
Stanford granted Tenure as Professor of Political Science, 1993-Present
Stanford Provost, 1993-1999

Palin's Academic Accomplishments:
BS in communications-journalism, with political science minor, University of Idaho

Rice's Political Positions held:
Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, 1989
Director, and then Senior Director, of Soviet and East European Affairs in the National Security Council, 1989-1991
National Security Advisor, 2001–2005
Secretary of State, 2005–present

Palin's Political Positions held:
City Council, 1992-1995
Mayor, 1996-2002
Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (2003-2004, resigned)
Governor of Alaska, 2006-2008

Derwood

No, because she's a direct tie to the Bush years.

I think Olympia Snowe would have been a better choice, but she wouldn't appeal to the "base" (though her views very much fall in line with McCain's pre-campaign beliefs)

pig

Aside from roach's pragmatic analysis...of the two candidates in a quasi-vacuum for direct connection to bush...yes, she would be a much more qualified and intelligent spokesperson for the republican ticket. the speech that palin gave, which everyone seems to have loved...made me cringe. i actually got into a fight with my girlfriend because i was so infuriated by her tone and sound-bite statements, and my fear that people would find it resonant. all my right-wing friends think it was awesome. i think it was awful.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Willravel

Rice isn't physically attractive, so I can't imagine McCain choosing her.

Derwood

I totally agree. When she started taking huge swipes and sucker punches at Obama, my thought was "who is this person and where does she have the gall to talk about people this way?"

Then again, it just carried on the theme already established by Romney and Giuliani

dc_dux

I must have been looking at a different Condi Rice for the last eight years.

Yes, she is a highly intelligent academician. IMO, she has been an utter failure in government.

As National Security Adviser, her role was to serve as the filter through which all policy recommendations were presented to the President. Cheney and Rumsfeld just ran right over her as if she didnt exist. She also completely ignored detailed information provided to her from the Clinton national security team about the al Queda threat in order to focus on a foreign policy objective with which she was more familiar and comfortable - missile defenses and the post-cold war Russian "threat" for the first eighth months of her term as security adviser.

As Secretary of State, career diplomats were on the verge of mass resignations, not because of her ideology, but rather as a result of her management and diplomatic skills or lack thereof. Bush had to bring in John Negroponte (a career diplomat and UN ambassador) to serve as the face of the State Department in most serious discussions with foreign counterparts for the last two years. She was reduced to a figurehead.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ottopilot

Condoleezza Rice is phenomenal... no doubt.

But in absence of formal or higher education, lots of folks have done OK.
Abraham Lincoln - almost no formal education
George Washington - no college
Millard Fillmore - no college
Andrew Jackson - no college
Andrew Johnson - no college

Other famous drop-outs
Bill Gates
The Wright Brothers
Albert Einstein
etc.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

kutulu

Condi has one hell of an impressive resume, no doubt and she's obviously a hell of a lot more qualified but adding someone from teh Bush administration doesn't help the so-called 'mavrick' image.

matthew330

WHAT?? I can't be the only one that disagrees with this. I wouldn't say "hot", but attractive (yes physically), definitely.

Psycho Dad

Agreed. She would do very well as our VP, but for her to be picked this year it would be too easy for the Democrats to use this angle.
-----Added 5/9/2008 at 10 : 09 : 36-----
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...ml#post2469496

Palin is hotter though.

__________________
Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

host

In the tiny, tiny, republican/chrisitan fundamentalist world....the main problem for Condi....besides her incompetence....her key attribute that brought her to the attention of the Bush I admin. was her expertise in Soviet studies..... a talent that has not served the Bush II admin., all that well.....is that Condi will not be able to shake off the barely suppressed evidence that she is gay.

She owns a home and has mixed her finances with a gay "Hollywood" liberal:
The Confidante: Condoleezza Rice and ... - Google Book Search

matthew330

oh man....I thought host was scary with links

jorgelito

Good post Roachie, well written, Thank you.
-----Added 6/9/2008 at 04 : 51 : 55-----
Wow, that is racist. She is very attractive. Why wouldn't McCain choose her? Maybe he asked and she declined. Or maybe she is too close to Bush and from a strategic point of view, it may be best to distance oneself from Bush. But to assume McCain rejected Rice on her looks is just idiotic.
-----Added 6/9/2008 at 04 : 53 : 23-----
????????? What the fuck is this bullshit? Hostie has stooped to an all time low. Fucking asinine.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

ottopilot

In some-one's tiny tiny bigoted world, this post may seem reasonable.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Tully Mars

Rice is gay? Don't know, don't care. Honestly I'd be less surprised to find out she's a lesbian then Hilary, a rumor the rights been trying to spread for years. In the end it's really her personal business, but if true it sure as hell wouldn't play well with the religious base of the GOP. Separate out the rumors and I don't think Rice would have fired up the base the way Palin has and Rice's ties to the Bush Admin. would be problematic in winning over independents and swing voters. So I think Palin was a better choice for McCain. She's more likely to help him win. But I think Rice is fifty times more qualified for the job.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

host

Uhh....isn't it Rice's party that is structured to keep gays in the closet, to institutionalize the idea that they are "sinners", that the way they express their love for each other, physically, is a crime? Isn't it part of the republican platform to deny gays the right to civil marriage ?

The POV that it takes to post what you posted, suggests a high level of denial. The source I cited is Glenn Kessler, Washington Post foreign affairs correspondent. He wrote that Rice bought a house with a gay male friend, and her "best friend", a lesbian, ten years ago. Rice and her best friend later bought out the interest of their gay male partner. Rice has no history of dating men, and no record of a serious relationship with a man....in 30 years as an adult.

Because of what the republican party stands for, and Rice's refusal to use the influence (if there is any remaining....) of the US State Dept. to publicly object to the execution in Iran of gay teenagers, for the crime of "being gay", I would volunteer my time to gathering info to make a much stronger case that she is a closeted hypocrite, as would many others, if she attempted a campaign for high political office, as a republican.

Poppinjay

I think Condi is hotter than Bag O' Hairspray Palin.

Will, time for new glasses? Sure, take a close in picture of ANYBODY and they'll have blemishes.

I think she would have been a much better choice. I've despised the Bush admin I&II, and I wouldn't consider her tied to his legacy. If anything, she's been held back by W's incompetence.

Host, I think it's pretty well known that she's dating former 49er Gene Washington.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

host

Could the truth be the opposite of your opinion?

hunnychile

If McCain & the repubs-re"dubs" i.e. W- HAD PICKED Condi, even I, a true Democrat might have thought this was an extremely smart choice and started to become worried about Obama's chances of being elected. **Though in truth I will vote for the best candidate, not the party.

Now, with Palin....No Contest. BINGO, It's done and the die has been cast. Anyone with good sense and a glimmer of hope for the future (really) is going to be smart enough to vote Democrat & for Obama in the upcoming election.

__________________
"I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

ratbastid

If she is gay, that would certainly preclude her candidacy. She'd be smart to be making the "bowing out of the limelight" noises she's making, because she'd never be able to adequately cover it from the investigative media, and then she'd never get any traction with the vast majority of her party.

But... can you imagine? A gay black female Republican. It'd be like an ostrich on an ice floe. It'd be like a cow drinking a milkshake at a hamburger stand.

dc_dux

If Rice is gay, and the rumors have been persistent in DC for years, she could always go to an upcoming conference sponsored by Paln's church to "cure" gays through the power of prayer:
But in the end, Rice's incompetence in government over the last eight years has little to do with her sexuality.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Tully Mars

That's makes it sound more like she seeing him romantically to me. Again I care not, she can be having four ways with the three remaining "Golden Girls" for all I care. Her actions and at times inaction while a key member of the Bush Admin. is far more important to me then who she's sleeping with.
-----Added 6/9/2008 at 07 : 12 : 37-----

I completely disagree. Palin's given McCain and the GOP one hell of a shot in the arm. Their base is thrilled and fired up. As long as she sticks to the talking points and keeps repeating the same lies it just might work. That's exactly the tactic Rove et el used to get Bush in office twice. Lie, repeat lie, repeat lie some more. When questioned or confronted with facts- spin it and lie some more. Eventually the media will simply begin to report the lie as fact. This is a tried and true tactic. I mean Gore said he invented the Internet, right?

Wrong-

snopes.com: Al Gore Invented the Internet

I heard this stated as fact as recently as last week on MSNBC.

This is far from over.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

uncle phil

addressing the OP. ya think mccain is going to "trade up?" or "trade down?" as the case may be? our thoughts on the matter are irrelevant...

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

guy44

Some thoughts:

1. Rice is a direct link to the Bush Administration and many of its more extravagant disasters. Iraq War, anyone? There's a reason the VP pick hails from as far away from D.C. as humanly possible.

2. It is my understanding that Rice is pro-choice. Can't have someone with a 21st - or, hell, 20th - century view on reproductive rights on the GOP ticket, now can we? Incidentally, this is also one of the major factors that did in Ridge as a VP option.

3. In terms of actual governance, as in, would Palin or Rice be superior if disaster struck and they found themselves elevated to the Presidency, I think Rice would clearly be superior (well...probably. She did help construct Bush's foreign policy, and that's not something you want on your resume). Palin ran her tiny town into major debt and has positively no experience on the national scene. She's just not ready.

4. Politically, Rice would have been suicide. Her pro-choice views would obliterate any chance of the base turning out, and her having helped created the worst foreign policy debacle in American history would ensure that swing voters wouldn't vote for the GOP ticket.

Palin is a clear play for the base. Her convention speech was little more than red meat for the base, and the Christian nuts are tickled to death that they have enough sway over the GOP that John McCain will buckle entirely when he needs them. I don't think (and the extremely early polling indicate) that she'll be much of a help with the swing voters, though.

5. No way, no how will McCain drop her from the ticket. That's admitting he's wrong about his most important decision so far, and that's suicide. It would be the same if Obama had to drop Biden. Just can't happen.

__________________
"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

loquitur

I agree that Condi is too closely associated with Bush for McCain even to consider her.

In terms of ability, I'd hesitate to evaluate it by looking at fancy degrees. I know I have one and I certainly wouldn't put me in charge of anything. And I know too many very highly educated people who are total fools when it comes to making any sort of real life decisions. As for Condi - from what I read, she's not a great executive and didn't do a great job as National Security Adviser - she was supposed to coordinate multiple agencies and didn't do it well. Now, maybe it's a function of the fact that you can't herd cats - trying to coordinate between Rumsfeld and Powell must have been no mean task. But still.

That said, she is clearly a formidable intellectual and she has a lot of fans on the right. Personally, and this is just a gut feeling, I dont think the righties would care that she's a lesbian (if in fact she is, which seems a good bet to me) because she is discreet about it and doesn't make a big deal of it. If not for her close association with Bush I think she would have been a plausible VP candidate. But McCain clearly wanted to shake things up and go for something totally new, and that's not Condi.

Willravel

I dunno, I might. If for no other reason than to have a bipartisan cabinet....

Poppinjay

Thanks, Host for the link confirming that Condi is dating Gene Washington, although you left out the part about dating romantically.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Tully Mars

I think it's completely possible they're just friends. She may well be a lesbian. I've spent a lot time, weekends and even whole weeks, fishing and hunting with a couple real good friends, never been to "broke back mountain" myself.

Still don't care, she can sleep with anyone she wants. Her performance with the Bush Admin. is enough for me not to vote for her... for anything. Personally I wouldn't want her as the head of my local water district.
-----Added 8/9/2008 at 07 : 44 : 30-----
Many of the polls over the weekend showed McCain up for the first time (I think) in the his race.

Again I think her selection could prove to be the rock in David's sling.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

KirStang

Had Condi been the VP pick, I would be swinging towards the Republicans right now. However, with a irrational, bitchy, haughty, lying attack dog as VP....I wouldn't even want to wonder what would happen should she ever need to play statesman (a valid factor considering McCain's age). I think the republicans should have been more sensible--but that's just me! =)

ottopilot

I can't speak for the Republicans, but I'm pretty sure there are gays active in that party ... and I'm fairly certain none of your assertions would be found in any of the RNC literature. Is the bigotry you expressed toward Ms. Rice part of your party's platform?

Well... there's really no denying the undeniably high level of bigotry and hypocrisy in your comments regarding Condoleezza Rice. This is more about bigoted and intolerant individuals pretending to be "progressive".

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

dc_dux

From the Republican party platform adopted last week:

"Military priorities and mission must determine personnel policies. Esprit and cohesion are necessary for military effectiveness and success on the battlefield. To protect our servicemen and women and ensure that America’s Armed Forces remain the best in the world, we affirm the timelessness of those values, the benefits of traditional military culture, and the incompatibility of homosexuality with military service."

Otto.....Protecting our servicemen and women from the incompatibility of homosexuality with military service might certainly be viewed as bigoted by some.

and on "marriage":

"Because our children’s future is best preserved within the traditional understanding of marriage, we call for a constitutional amendment that fully protects marriage as a union of a man and a woman, so that judges cannot make other arrangements equivalent to it. In the absence of a national amendment, we support the right of the people of the various states to affirm traditional marriage through state initiatives....

Republicans have been at the forefront of protecting traditional marriage laws, both in the states and in Congress. A Republican Congress enacted the Defense of Marriage Act, affirming the right of states not to recognize same-sex “marriages” licensed in other states..."

A constitutional amendment to ban gay marriages (and to ban recognition of other arrangements equivalent to it (civil unions) might also be viewed as bigoted.
-----Added 9/9/2008 at 11 : 26 : 52-----
added:

Here it is (pdf), the Republican platform in all its patriotic glory, starting with the dedication:

This platform is respectfully dedicated to our "....heroes proved in liberating strife, whom more than self their country loved and mercy more than life" (America the Beautiful)

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ottopilot

OK... I am wrong about the RNC platform... probably a huge reason why I'm NOT a republican... good research dc. Very creepy side of the RNC.

Still... host's bigotry regarding Condoleezza Rice stands unjustified. Two wrongs don't make a right... (2 wongs don't make a white too) and so on.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo