|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools |
07-10-2008, 03:35 AM | #161 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
|
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...vote=00168#top
Politics, seems to be business as usual as far as I can tell, which isn't very much.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
07-10-2008, 03:58 AM | #162 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
|
In terms of the roll call vote, McCain hasnt voted on any bill in the Senate since April....that way he can take credit for bills that pass that he opposed..like the recent GI Bill.
In terms of the FISA bill...as bad as it is with the retroactive immunity for telecomms, it still is an improvement over the Protect America Act by: codifying the fact that FISA provides the sole legal authority for wiretaps (no more claiming that an AUMF provides that authority)IMO, the 30-40 civil lawsuits against the telecomms would never have seen the light of day under any circumstances. I believe criminal sanctions against the major perpetrators (Bush/Gonzales) is still a possibility. And my friends farther left than me are over reacting and are assuming that the next president will show the same blatant disregard for the law as Bush and the next Congress will be as negligent in its oversight as the Republican Congress was between 2001 and 2005 when the illegal warrantless wiretaps occured. In the end, I pretty much agree with Feingold's conclusion, the most outspoken opponent of the bill in the Senate, although I think he is over reacting as well (for the reasons I noted above): Quote:
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 07-10-2008 at 04:21 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
|
07-10-2008, 08:05 AM | #163 (permalink) | |||
Banned
|
Quote:
I'll slice and dice this, two ways for you..... Quote:
Quote:
We "got" nothing _dux....democrat leaders think they did, but it makes them look weak, vaciliating, unprincipled, untrustworthy, and not different enough from republicans for it to matter much! Last edited by host; 07-10-2008 at 08:22 AM.. |
|||
07-10-2008, 08:29 AM | #164 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
|
host...I am not trying to bullshit you or anyone.
But I think Greenwald is....by playing on the fears of the worst possible scenario (mimicking a Bush tactic) of having the next president being as corrupt and unethical as Bush and a Congress as unresponsive and irresponsible as the 107th-109th I recognize the shortcomimngs of the bill, particularly the retroactive immunity. But even some leading Democratics who voted against it -- Leahy, Boxer, Schumer, Whitehouse -- have acknowledged it provides better oversight and more safeguards against abuse than the PAA. And, IMO, a fallback to the orginal FISA law would be a greater loss for the Democrats by playing right into Bush/Republican hands that the Dems "are weak on national security." My goal is to elect a Democratic president, expand a Democratic Congress....and then FIX IT!
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
07-10-2008, 08:38 AM | #165 (permalink) | |
Banned
|
Quote:
What you witness yesterday in the senate is Obama going through the vetting process,,,,seeking the approval of those who are actually "in charge". |
|
07-10-2008, 08:46 AM | #166 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
|
host....I agree with you on many issues. I even accept the undue influence of the PTB.
But here is where we part ways.....I believe in a pragmatic approach to affecting change by working the system where you believe in a "people's revolution" to take the power back from the PTBs. host...the problem with your approach is that you cant have "people's revolution" without the people...and the fact is, you dont have them on your side. What you might accomplish is the reverse of your goal...driving many moderate Independents back to the right. What I am trying to accomplish is to act on those growing number of policy issues where those moderate Independents will ally with progressives and build on that foundation.
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 07-10-2008 at 08:51 AM.. |
07-10-2008, 10:00 AM | #167 (permalink) | ||
Banned
|
dc dux,
My concern driven question is.....what if you're engaged in the only venue and process THEY have relegated you and the other actors who believe in and operate in that arena ....out of THEIR way unless/until you and your process are useful to them, like yesterday, in the FISA fight that wasnlt? Who gained....the PTB, with their penchant for intelligence gathering and control...or the people? You're right about the indifference related ignorance of the people, but somebody has to fill the role I am trying to fill. It used to be filled sometimes in the congress....it took depression as the catalyst, but in the 30's, Dickstein McCormack, Gerald Nye, and TNEC rattled the PTB's cages. No one in congress continues to question the PTB, or even it's errand boys...the sitting and past presidents. I think the PTB had already become too international in scope, in the decade before WWI, for what you advocate doing now, and for what Nye and TNEC tried to raise awareness obout...to have an effect....a transfer of appreciable power away from the PTB, for it to be worth your effort/devotion. From what I am seeing, the German Dye Trust's relationships of neccessity....the intellectual property related arrangements, made the PTB 's allegiance, extranational: (Consider that all of Time's reporting was mocking of efforts to investigate and uncover the secrets of the PTB, if inquiry was undertaken by elected officials....) Quote:
In 1933, Walter S. Carpenter, head of the Du Pont Corp. finance committee, and by 1940, first outside the Du Pont family president and later chairman of the company, negotiated the sale of Reminton/UMC to Du Pont. Walter Carpenter was permitted to buy property on Jupiter Island. Du Pont bros. attorney during Sen. Nye's investigations of the WWI armament and explosives indiustry (took place in 1934...) was Col. Wild Bill Donovan, WWII director of OSS. Jupiter Island homeowner, Paul Mellon, son of Treas, Sect'y Andrew.... had a daughter, Ailsa who was married to the head of OSS in London, David Bruce. When his by then, ex-wife and Mellon daughter died in 1969, she was the wealthiest woman in the US. Even in 1968, only 153 people in the US, were worth over $150 million, according to Fortune Mag.... and I posted in another thread that Jupiter resident and Yale bonesman, Robert Lovett headed the committee that dersigned the CIA....as asst. secretary of war, under Roosevelt's successor, Truman, Lovett always had been a proponent of massive bombing of civilian urban centers....what do you think his advice to Truman was, as far as using the A-Bomb, developed by his Jupiter Island neigbor, Walter Carpenter's company, Du Pont? Call me crazy, but I think the PTB only permitted Nye's investigation because they were worried about revolution at the depths of the 30's depression, and investigations were permitted as safety valves....to let off steam..... The point.....the PTB may simply have you in an elaborate "day care center", where they feed you "crumbs", and you view it as "consensus building pragmatism"....."progress" which they dangle in front of you, but, you will never have....as the way this FISA "op" went down...since June 20th, clearly shows....the PTB deciding to flex it's muscles....and shit in all of our little peon, faces! Last edited by host; 07-11-2008 at 11:19 AM.. |
||
07-11-2008, 11:17 AM | #168 (permalink) |
Banned
|
I've posted a sequel to the post above, here:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...17#post2484817 |
07-23-2008, 08:41 AM | #169 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
|
host....do you think a Church Committee-style investigation would demonstrate a commitment by the Democrats to address the abuses of the Constitutional and US and international law by the Bush administration?
Quote:
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 07-23-2008 at 08:53 AM.. |
|
08-31-2008, 03:28 PM | #170 (permalink) | ||
Banned
|
Quote:
On a side note..... If there was a truly beneficial difference between the "two parties" in the struggle over the distribution of power and wealth resulting from the achievements of one party vs. the other, would we see "results", like these? Quote:
Last edited by host; 08-31-2008 at 03:40 PM.. |
||
08-31-2008, 03:46 PM | #171 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
|
Quote:
So much has been withheld from Congressional oversight inquiries in the last two years that there needs to be a means for such information to be exposed....not for retribution, but for reform. While it may not result in punishment in and of itself, it could result in enactment of additional legislative safeguards to prevent the types of Executive Branch abuses that have occurred over the last eight years. And it could refer alleged criminal acts to the DoJ for further investigation and prosecution.
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 08-31-2008 at 03:57 PM.. |
|
08-31-2008, 04:34 PM | #172 (permalink) | ||
Banned
|
Another example for why I don't expect change to come "through the system", dc_dux. If it comes at all, it will be in spite of "the system", not via it. It's reduced to something of no more consequence, that would actually benefit most of us....than say....NASCAR, only it has much poorer ratings and lower viewer, share.....
Complicit enablers, or idiot enablers.....and it doesn't really matter which.....SHEESH ! Background: Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by host; 08-31-2008 at 04:45 PM.. |
||
08-31-2008, 05:25 PM | #173 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
|
Quote:
It may not be perfect and I certainly dont agree with every policy or action that results, but IMO, there is no better and more accountable system anywhere in the world...particularly when the Constitutional checks and balances work as envisioned....which, I think we would agree, has not been the case over the last eight years. I honestly dont know what you think might be a better system or how you think you can make things better by working outside the system.
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
|
08-31-2008, 06:25 PM | #174 (permalink) | |
Banned
|
Quote:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/general...ml#post2407157 ....to go around the system, within the framework of political organizing and the voting process, but, I don't think it will even be tolerated to the level that Sinclair attempted, if the events of this weekend are an indicator; Federal government involved in raids on protesters - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com ....I think the folks in charge of the emerging police state will provoke the spilling of blood which, once it begins to flow in earnest, won't be easy to end, as the atrocities accumulate, but.... maybe the people will just sit there and take it, no matter the height of the level of corruption, oppression, and injustice. |
|
Tags |
act, bill, bush, corporatist, dem, leaders, lying, obama, rights, stealing |
|
|