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06-25-2008, 11:46 AM | #81 (permalink) | |||
Tilted Cat Head
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__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-25-2008, 11:49 AM | #82 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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In a discussion about nonviolence you tried to re-frame the discussion by switching to martyrdom and in that same post you compared the man in Tienanmen Square to a suicide bomber.
Two very bright people came to the exact same conclusion about your comparison, Cynth. It may be time for self reflection. |
06-25-2008, 11:59 AM | #83 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
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__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-25-2008, 12:01 PM | #84 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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I understood what you said, Cynthetiq. Explaining it to me further hasn't handled my disgust.
Neither Gandhi nor King "voluntarily suffered death", by the way. They were both assassinated. Just so you've got your history straight. MASSIVE difference between killing for your values and being killed for them. I wouldn't call either of them martyrs, in the sense generally meant by the term. Last edited by ratbastid; 06-25-2008 at 12:06 PM.. |
06-25-2008, 12:06 PM | #85 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Also, what Rat said. |
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06-25-2008, 12:10 PM | #87 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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In my view a pacifist will enjoy the benefits from the past use of violence by others or the potential future use of violence by their neighbors/police/army/etc willing to defend life, liberty and property to fend off those who would otherwise commit violent acts to take those things, while a martyr is at least willing to make a sacrifice. It is easy to be a pacifist when nothing is at risk.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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06-25-2008, 12:13 PM | #88 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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Voluntarily suffered death... I guess you didn't continue with the rest of the definition which ends with the word "religion." They were assasinated for their beliefs, I don't disput that, but "a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle" is befitting of their death. People have spoken that MLK was a martyr for the cause of civil rights. Ghandi, not that I've read. But if Tank Man was killed, he may very well be a martyr for the cause and freedoms of the Chinese people. Benigno Aquino is considered a martyr to the Filipinos and probably the lynchpin to the downfall of the Marcos regime. I'm not trying to make inflammatory comparisions here, I'm just stating like it or not the defintions as they are cut both ways, massive difference notwithstanding.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-25-2008, 12:18 PM | #89 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Cyn, I for one see your point and sort of agree. Perhaps a better definition of a martyr would include that the observer agrees with the actor's decisions and politics. Which means that Joan of Arc isn't a martyr anymore.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
06-25-2008, 12:22 PM | #90 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Also, keep in mind that Ghandi, King and other who had great accomplishments through the use of nonviolence, had leverage that gave them the power to make demands. In both cases they certainly had what was right on their side, but it was the possibility of great civil unrest and violence that added to their leverage. I would say they used a non-violent approach to accomplishing their goals, but in the end we don't know if they would have sanctioned violence. I know King had no objections to the national guard being used to protect children going to school, hence the threatened use of violence to protect life and liberty.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
06-25-2008, 12:30 PM | #91 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." -Gandhi "Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary." -Gandhi "I cannot teach you violence, as I do not myself believe in it. I can only teach you not to bow your heads before any one even at the cost of your life." -Gandhi (a little martyrish there, eh Cynth?) "Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." -Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. "Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love." -Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. And one of my personal favorites: "Let no man pull you low enough to hate him." -Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. By the way: easy to be a pacifist when there's nothing at risk? You're damn right, ace: "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Think he was talking about how big a gun you're standing with in times of challenge and controversy? |
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06-25-2008, 12:43 PM | #92 (permalink) | |||
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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I'm not sure how to route this back to the OP, but I will try again... Quote:
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-25-2008, 01:03 PM | #94 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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06-25-2008, 01:22 PM | #95 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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"Be the change you want to see in the world." “The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” "Be the change you want to see in the world." “The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” and two from Dr. King: “Life's most persistent and urgent question is, 'What are you doing for others?'” “Whatever your life's work is, do it well. A man should do his job so well that the living, the dead, and the unborn could do it no better. will, okay, you win...
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-25-2008, 11:25 PM | #96 (permalink) | ||
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Ahem.... is there still room for an ON Topic post on this page?
If I've missed Obama's "finest moment", in his efforts TO PREVENT "the warrantless wiretapping", he vowed last november, to oppose, or in his new, watered down commitment to try to remove telecomm amnesty from the house passed, FISA "reform" bill, please point me to it ! http://senate.gov/legislative/LIS/ro...n=2&vote=00158 The senate voted on wednesday to proceed to debate on the FISA bill. Those opposing this motion to move closer to a vote on the bill itself, garnered only 15 votes... Obama didn't vote. 80 senators voted to move the bill along, but some, including Reid and Spector, have stated they will not vote for the final version of the bill, if it still includes telecomm amnesty. Obama has said he will do the opposite: Watch Obama explain, this week, how being against any bill that included telecomm amnesty in January, is consistent with saying now, that he will vote for a bill that includes telecomm amnesty if it comes up for a final vote for senate passage: http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...ostid-updateC6 Quote:
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Anybody willing to decipher what Obama's position is, compared to what it was back in January, and why it should not be a cause for concern, now? Last edited by host; 06-25-2008 at 11:52 PM.. |
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06-25-2008, 11:52 PM | #97 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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No politicians aren't different. I'm not surprised that Obama waffles on an issue. He's a politician. It's part of the definition of the game of politics. I'll even add: flip flop, ride fence, talk both ways from his mouth... host, if you've followed politics with the intelligence you've got, why are you surprised at this? or is this more because you believe that politicians must do as they say, promised, or what you believe should be right? Do you believe that American politicians are above being human and suffering the same fates and foils of their counterparts around the world?
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-26-2008, 12:04 AM | #98 (permalink) | ||
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I am not the one who has posted in these threads that Obama is a different kind of leader...not your run of the mill politician. I have not urged anyone to "trust him". or to "take him at his word". Conversely, I have not accused Obama of being "too liberal", or posted that he is "the most liberal member of the senate". I recall that instead, I've posted that Obama is positioned "to the right of republican president Dwight Eisenhower".... that his call to increase US ground forces by 92,000 troops make him more a militarist, than a reformer. I'll admit that I have probably been wrong about one thing, in posting my opinions that Obama faces a very difficult task; attracting enough votes to win in the general election in November. I did not expect that he would say or do anything that he and his handlers think will help him get elected. Since last thursday, I've been thinking that he will say whatever it takes....the constitution be damned.... I've posted that I do not see what others post that they see in Obama. Through it all, none of my specifics are answered with specifics. (Disclaimer: This is an example, not an attempt to single out this poster, who usually thoroughly backs up the points he makes in his posts...) Quote:
Last edited by host; 06-26-2008 at 12:20 AM.. |
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06-26-2008, 12:16 AM | #99 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-26-2008, 04:11 AM | #100 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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yeah--it's a little strange---if you have not particularly found the construction of obama as some left-type to be more than a conservative hallucination, there's not a whole lot to talk about in the fisa bill matter, simply because it follows--not from a facile cynicism regarding "politicians" in general, but from his own politics. my position is that obama appears to be part of a less self-enclosed, self-confirming ideological world than mccain, who is obviously in a position of trying to find some way to simultaneously distance himself from and maintain continuity with the delusional space of populist conservatism of the past 30 years. but i don't see obama as offering anything remotely like an alternate ideology to neoliberalism, anything like a viewpoint that i can say *will* result in coherence in the face of structural problems---but the fact that his is a more open position leads me to think he *might* be able to respond coherently, where mccain will not.
i also dont see obama as holding the bush people to account for much. my suspicion is that this would follow from the requirements of maintaining system legitimacy--there are limits to how far one could personalize the disaster that has been the past 8 years, associate it with the "bad apples" of the bush administration and thereby limit it to a question of individuals deviating from a trajectory otherwise rational, operating within a system that is otherwise legitimate. but i didn't expect anything. i can't say as i'm disappointed. what seems different with host is that there's a degree of disappointment i sense lurking about inside the anger. but maybe i'm wrong.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
06-26-2008, 06:30 AM | #101 (permalink) |
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rb, I don't think it's disappointment that I am feeling....I never had high expectations about Obama. I shared hope with some here that change had begun after election night' 2006. Now, I read what Obama said lasr week in reaction to the fealty for Bush policy from Hoyer and Pelosi, then the reactions posted to my posts on this thread.....and finally, I read this: http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa.../26/olbermann/ ...and I feel like my effing head is gonna explode. There are possibly four of us here who think US politics are dominated by two right wing parties....and the rest are politically, in denial...
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06-26-2008, 06:51 AM | #102 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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i don't know if you can say denial, really.
for example, i don't at all see dc as being "in denial" about much of anything--but his view tends to be shaped by a particular relation, a particular space of activity which i generally find to be interesting. at the same time, the question of how one positions stuff at a more general level continually crops up in my mind as i read his posts--but this seems an ongoing trade-off, not something wherein the position he writes from precludes a wider view. and there is something to be said for operating within the realm of what seems possible....its the old social democratic line, in the left tradition. and it can function to make peoples' lives materially better. my basic position is that all such positions, in the micro-level and at the macro-level, would be helped alot with sustained, coherent pressure from positions to the left of what currently exists. in that respect, putting stuff up in a space like this is at best a type of practicing---what we really ought to be doing is figuring out how to get information out into the wider world. but i keep wandering off into ontology and salt marshes lately. i think there's a linkage (undermine the philosophical suppositions that enable what i take to be the dominant ideology/-ies)...but sometimes i think it'd be better to shift back into the trenches more. but this artsy stuff is fun. who can say what's the best way to do anything?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
06-26-2008, 06:56 AM | #103 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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I disagree in the denial as well.
I'm in full acceptance that politicians are going to waffle on issues, lie, cheat, steal, cronyism, nepotism, war and all that comes with it. I think that we somehow were sold a bill of goods that the forefathers put forth a system that isn't corrupt or fallible. People are, and until there's a major change in the human condition, will continue to be so. host are there any politicians that are acceptable to you? In my view for me, there are no politicians that are acceptable, most are just tolerable.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
06-26-2008, 07:15 AM | #104 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Host,
I am not clear on some things about your point of view. Did you or do you believe the rhetoric from Democratic Party leaders regarding their sentiments against the actions and decisions made by the Bush administration? How much of their rhetoric do you think was based on principles compared to politically grandstanding? I always found it interesting how you would call Bush a lier, when anyone paying attention knew what Bush wanted, what he was going to do and when he was going to do it, but up until now you have given Democrats a pass for saying things like: we did not know that authorizing the use of military force would lead to war, that continually funding an occupation of Iraq would mean troops would continue to be in Iraq, that approving the appointment of a General who supported a surge would lead to a surge, etc, etc, etc. Why all of a sudden are you surprised. Democrats have had a pattern over the pass 8 years of saying one thing and doing another. I am surprised people have not been outraged by that.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
06-26-2008, 07:19 AM | #105 (permalink) |
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"acceptable, Cynthetiq?" Yes....some politicians are even praiseworthy, IMO. There is a subcommittee hearing taking place this AM as I'm posting this... some of the named congressional reps at that hearing, are to be lauded:
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/20...-yoo/#comments I still am an admirer of Sen. Russ Feingold. I lost some regard for him....I posted about it two months ago....when he went off in a taped Q&A on one of his constituents who asked him if his strong support for Israel was really in the best interests of the US.... Last edited by host; 06-26-2008 at 07:26 AM.. |
06-26-2008, 07:28 AM | #106 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Frank and Conyers?
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
06-26-2008, 07:58 AM | #107 (permalink) | |||||||||||||||
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Did They Hand this MF Decider the Wrong Script, or Is this "Ground Hog Day"? http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=121564 http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ip#post2461896 Quote:
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First few months...2001" Republicans control house, senate, presidency next 18 months...democrats control senate to a slight degree.... 50 dems, 49 repubs, 1 independent, Cheney serves as senate VP and tie breaking vote. next 4 years, Republicans control house, senate, presidency last 17 months, dems have control of house, slight control of senate....51st dem senator incapacitated by TBI, early in term, cannot vote....Cheney is still tie breaking vote....Bush, a president who set a record by not vetoing a single bill in first six years....vetoes and/or attaches signing statements to nearly every bill passed and sent up to him. Republicans in senate rename their filibustering tactics, but set a record for filibuster type blocking of senate attempts to engage in the legislative process....yeah, ace, those lying democrats have really screwed up the government these last 7-1/2 years.... Visit the linked page in my last post....actual hearings that resemble attempts to make executive branch officials are taking place, ace....after six years of the congress abandoning the practice...... Quote:
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http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...22&btnG=Search What is your objection to Conyers....vs. the "stuff" he's been doing, like this: Most of these asshats are flawed in the ethics dept.... Conyers certainly is....but he is one of the few bright lights, when it comes to any challenge to the operational, official misconduct...who to invade, who to torture, who to "out" for purposes of political payback.... Quote:
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06-26-2008, 08:25 AM | #108 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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I don't object to Conyers very much, again, I see it as tolerable. I didn't see the longer list of contributors, I just saw the transcript names.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
06-26-2008, 08:56 AM | #109 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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rb....thanks for understanding, even if you dont agree. So, for the record: My Personal Resolution of DeniabilityMore for the record: host....I couldnt do what I do w/o those of you further to the left of me doing what you do....all in support of preventing the aceBush uberConservatives from continuing to do what they would do.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-26-2008 at 10:23 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-26-2008, 10:41 AM | #110 (permalink) | ||||
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There isn't time for the economy, for the supply of affordable oil, for the "war on terror", for the problem and effects of inequitable power and wealth distribution trends to "fix themselves". This tells me: Quote:
...and so does this excerpt, that...."the people" need to be led, and Obama is following, not leading, and in his winning the approval of the "power elite", insuring that nothing of any substance, will change. I've highlighted in yellow, what I think is a condensation of what you say you stand for, and what the results of your principles/pragmatism, are....below that, are a near realtime description of the results: Quote:
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06-26-2008, 10:54 AM | #111 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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BTW, a post like yours would make for a really interesting way to introduce one's self on a political forum. |
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06-26-2008, 11:36 AM | #112 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Host,
Your response to my question suggests that you insist that Democratic party leaders and others who were paying attention had no awareness of Bush's agenda to invade Iraq prior to the invasion. That the Democratic party leaders and others paying attention had no awareness of Bush's intent to occupy and to spread democracy in Iraq after the initial invasion, as they continually funded the occupation and provided funds for the spreading of democracy in Iraq. That that key Democratic party leaders in particular had no awareness of Bush's aggressive interpretation of his war powers that he used to justify what many call violations of the FISA legislation. That key Democratic party leaders and anyone paying attention had no awareness until the recent Supreme Court ruling that enemy combatants at Guantánamo Bay were being held without the writ of habeas corpus as afforded to US citizens under the US Constitution. Given the above and some other items, you actually want me to believe that by simply saying Bush lied absolves Democratic party leaders and anyone paying attention of any responsibility - making them victims and that it allows them to say one thing and do another or do nothing? I got it. And, I am not the one in denial.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
06-26-2008, 12:01 PM | #114 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I have been consistently pointing to rhetoric that can not be reconciled with actions from Democrats. Seems the knee jerk response is - well we had to do it, or, we were forced to to do it, or, those mean old Republicans made us do it. And let's not forget, the "Uber Liberal" response - Bush lied, therefore... Again, I get it. I think I will post something else showing how Democrats say one thing and do another - see the Countrywide thread if interested. "...endeavor to preserver." - Lone Waite, Outlaw Josey Wales Quote:
Then we have DC, well we did not do A, B, and C but we did E, F and G. Oh, the A, B, and C things are the most important issues of the day. But we will just complain about A, B and C. O.k., maybe I don't get it. If you can elaborate I will listen.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 06-26-2008 at 12:08 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-26-2008, 01:07 PM | #115 (permalink) |
Upright
Location: Midwest
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You have hit some hard facts there, but true, very true. On the other hand, some disagree and say its the Republicans:
http://hypocrisy.com/2008/06/25/welc...ergy-solution/ |
06-26-2008, 01:29 PM | #116 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Congress voted to declare war, so they are responsible. |
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06-27-2008, 08:07 AM | #117 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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In any case, an AUMF authorizes a president to use the Armed Forces of the United States..... It does not give a president the authorization to direct the NSA to wiretap citizens w/o warrant as Bush attempted to claim. It does not give a president the authorization to direct the CIA to use "enhanced interrogation techniques" that are recognized in international treaties as torture, as Bush attempted to claim. The CIA and NSA are NOT part of the Armed Forces of the United States. And it does not give a president the authority to ignore the Uniform Code of Military Justice or Geneva Conventions as applied to the rights of detainees in military prisons....as Bush attempted to claim and the USSC overuled on three separate occasions.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-27-2008 at 08:13 AM.. |
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06-27-2008, 08:13 AM | #118 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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06-27-2008, 08:24 AM | #119 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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There was no sweeping "war authority" that is limited solely to a formal Declaration of War and there was no "open ended" authorization to use the NSA, CIA, FBI, etc outside of existing law. Testimony from Alberto gonzales in 2006 demonstrate how this administration operated: Quote:
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-27-2008 at 09:02 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-27-2008, 11:15 AM | #120 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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In my view of this Congress gave Bush an open ended opportunity to do whatever he wanted to do regarding the "Iraq threat". O.k., let's assume that was a mistake and Congress felt Bush lied and was abusing his open ended authority. What happened next? A series of funding authorizations, in spite of the rhetoric? At no time did Congress ever redefine Bush's authority, in spite of the rhetoric? At no time did Congress revoke the open ended authority, in spite of the rhetoric? At no time did Congress seriously take up the issue of impeachment for perceived crimes and abuses by Bush, in spite of the rhetoric? Perhaps, it is not that extreme to conclude the rhetoric is and was B.S.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 06-27-2008 at 12:23 PM.. |
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act, bill, bush, corporatist, dem, leaders, lying, obama, rights, stealing |
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