03-01-2010, 02:57 PM | #161 (permalink) |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
|
These people soaked the rich. It is possible, but our current government is never going to do anything. The rules on corporations and government officials would have to be re-written and made very limiting and strict. And for some reason I have heard more stories in the media about corruption in Afghanistan than right here in the US. |
03-02-2010, 07:52 AM | #162 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
Consider that government is part of the problem. Government needs to keep it simply with its focus on fairness rather than social engineering.
In the case with Paulson the government created a situation where a select few can take advantage of a loop hole intended to help people serve government without an appearance of a conflict of interest. However, they did not eliminate the conflict and they allowed an individual to exploit the rule without being in violation of any law. The best solution is not having people like Paulson approved for a position like Treasury Secretary. Congress failed in it role of checks and balances to the executive branch.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
03-02-2010, 10:05 AM | #163 (permalink) |
Junkie
|
How can you think McCain is being honest when he said he was duped? He's full of shit and he can't even make it sound convincing.
I don't see anything wrong with this loophole. You wouldn't be able to recruit people from the private sector without it. The people who they want to take these jobs are going to have lots of money invested. If they have to sell their assets when they take the job then we are asking them to pay a lot of money out in taxes that they wouldn't have paid otherwise. They will still pay the taxes when they finally sell the assets that they transferred to the govt. securities. |
03-02-2010, 11:27 AM | #164 (permalink) | |||||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also, Paulson is an entrenched Goldman Sachs guy, it is in his blood. Only the foolish would put him in charge of $700 bil and the ability to save his former company at the expense of the tax payer. I fault Bush for this also, the problem with Bush is he was on his way out and was singularly focused on the war. Quote:
Quote:
I don't have a problem with "rich" people, I want to be one of them one day. If I ever make it (and maybe the reason I won't), I would not have a problem cashing out, paying my fair share of taxes, in order to serve a greater cause than making more money. Quote:
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
|||||||
03-02-2010, 01:29 PM | #165 (permalink) | |
Junkie
|
Quote:
Once -that- was accomplished, they set about destroying religious freedom in the Vendee, converting all churches into State-run propaganda organs, destroying hostile press, and "liquidating" those deemed "enemies of the people" by a bunch of Terrorists (seriously; they -invented- the word and used it to describe -themselves-) led by a sociopathic lawyer from Arras with a fondness for small boys and the world's worst choice in friends. Then, when all this was accomplished, what did they get in return for fifteen years of bloodshed, repression, and Terreur? Napoleon, twice. Holding up the Enragees and the Committee for Public Safety as an example of anything other than the prototype for every tyrannical left-statist government since is a grave error, IMO. And that's not even getting into the morality of "soaking" anyone, rich or poor. |
|
03-02-2010, 01:46 PM | #166 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
geez, dunedan, spoken like a real old-line reactionary there. kinda impressive.
la vendée.....they were just a bunch of peace-loving defenders of the true faith, yes? one of the great myths of reactionaries around the world, the "massacre" of the vendéens. and you even repeat a bunch of reactionary slurs about robespierre. great stuff. are you reading de maistre or some such? the terror lasted about 8 months. from the time robespierre got to be ascendant until he was executed by the convention, about a year. the person who did more to create the modern state than anyone was napoleon. not sure whether it is a good idea to turn this into a french revolution discussion or not. but it'd be kinda fun to do it. in a dorky way of course. thinking....
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
03-02-2010, 02:06 PM | #167 (permalink) | ||||||
Junkie
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by The_Dunedan; 03-02-2010 at 06:26 PM.. |
||||||
03-02-2010, 03:00 PM | #168 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
At the risk of offending you and causing you to go into spastic fits of frustration with my moot comparisons, how about that French Revolution and the parallels of the conditions leading up to it and current condition in the US? Namely, national debt, unfair taxation and incompetent political leadership, gee, sounds familiar
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
03-02-2010, 08:41 PM | #169 (permalink) | |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
|
Quote:
Why France is best place to live in world - CNN.com |
|
03-03-2010, 04:45 AM | #170 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
well, ace, that parallel depends on how vague you want to get. the proximate cause for the revolt of the aristocracy was the french crown's default on bonds it had floated to pay for a military adventure in the british colonies. the larger problem was that bond issues were how wars were paid for. so the problem was a lack of centralized taxation which would have provided a rational way to pay for a modern-style military. as for the comptence of louis 16...well...he was a sort of affable dope really. a regular guy affable dope who happened to find himself king. he preferred his hobbies. i dont think the parallels work too well
dudedan: the vendee letter is the center of the mythology. it's not at all obvious that the action it outlines happened. it's become fashionable, or was for a while, to follow furet off into conservative revisionism of the revolution, particularly the committee for public safety and the terror. but no matter i suppose. furet was at least smart about it. alot of the conservative revisionism less so. anway much of the dynamism of the terror seemed to follow from the situation---a constitutional crisis that gave way to a crisis of definition for the revolution---and the fact that robespierre et al did not have a clear idea of what the revolution was but did have a clear idea of operating as a faction. so the revolution began to eat itself. the terror has alot more to do with situational dynamics than it does biographical factoids i think. one of the central lessons the left revolutionary tradition drew from the terror was the need for a revolutionary platform, which would enable folk to determine what the revolution is and to avoid the pattern....
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
03-03-2010, 08:50 AM | #171 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
Clarify how you approach historical lessens as they may benefit actions in a current context? I would never expect a near perfect historical parallel to current events, your posts seem to me that you do. It is easy to point obvious differences and be dismissive, to me the greater challenge is to see the commonalities and divine the lessons that can apply to the current context.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
03-03-2010, 09:49 AM | #172 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm all for having a fair tax code and taking out loopholes that are wrong but I don't see this as one of those kinds of loopholes. |
|||
03-03-2010, 10:11 AM | #173 (permalink) | ||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
||||
03-03-2010, 10:16 AM | #174 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
ace--i think that rather than derail the thread, i'll leave what i posted at that for the time being. maybe we can take up the question of historical parallels and how to use them another time.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
03-13-2010, 11:57 AM | #175 (permalink) |
Upright
Location: South Louisiana
|
The only fair tax code would be a flat tax on gross earnings. No how much or little you earn. If one is compelled to earn more he would pay more at that point. The current tax codes punish the ambitious and successful and that is not fair.
---------- Post added at 01:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 PM ---------- The only fair tax code would be a flat tax on gross earnings. Not how much or little you earn. If one is compelled to earn more he would pay more at that point. The current tax codes punish the ambitious and successful and that is not fair. |
03-15-2010, 08:20 AM | #177 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
A flat tax system could be set up to exclude the poor. Or include allowances for things like basic food, shelter, out-of-pocket health care, and other basic necessities. I would prefer a tax code be as simple as possible but a flat tax rate does not have to be punitive to anyone or it could be set-up to be punitive. The biggest advantage to a flat-tax is the predictability across all income levels. It minimizes the incentive to shelter income from taxation because of excessive marginal rates as a person goes from on rate to another, or as they lose tax credits and deductions. For example a poor person with the earned income tax credit can take a big hit if they make too much money and lose the credit - people should not be faced with staying poor with the credit or earning a little more money from year to year to get out of "poverty". Why do we have a tax code where people can lose thousands, just because they earn $1 over a cut-off?
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
03-15-2010, 09:02 AM | #179 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
For the record, I would not tax income at all, I would tax consumption. Secondarily, tax simplification is the key. All other things being equal I would prefer a flat tax system to a progressive one. I realize a flat tax system can be problematic.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
03-15-2010, 10:07 PM | #182 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
|
It is possible to have a progressive tax that is also simplified. The tax forms I fill out here are one page. There are very few things that can be deducted from your taxes (mostly to do with dependants -- infirm spouses and parents, children, etc.).
The tax rate goes up as you earn more. I currently pay 14% with the ceiling being 20% for someone who is making more than $320,000/year. The rest of it is extremely simplified.
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
03-16-2010, 03:29 AM | #183 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Right here
|
true for flat taxes, but not necessarily for consumption taxes.
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
03-16-2010, 03:41 AM | #184 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
nope. the driver behind the formation of the modern state was the emergence of modern warfare and the idea of a professional army/navy, which required a centralization of taxation and a rationalization of the state to accomidate that. bonaparte.
btw the statement is not a complete history of the modern state by any means. it just points to the central driver behind its emergence.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
03-16-2010, 06:18 AM | #185 (permalink) |
Who You Crappin?
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
|
the poor spend close to 100% of their income on consumption, while the rich spend a far lower % on consumption. In that sense, it's regressive. In terms of dollars spent, then the rich are putting more into the tax pool. It's just a matter of perspective
__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel |
03-16-2010, 08:22 AM | #186 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
Quote:
And one more time - a flat tax or a consumption tax could be set up to exclude taxation on the poor or basic necessities. Why do you persist in ignoring this? ---------- Post added at 04:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:59 PM ---------- Quote:
---------- Post added at 04:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:15 PM ---------- Did you read the posts about our former Treasury Secretary? Simplified, the guy made a boat-load of money, legally did not pay taxes on it, legally will never have to pay taxes on it, but he can live like a king because he has the assets to do so. Under a consumption tax, he would pay taxes consistent with his lifestyle.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
||
03-16-2010, 08:26 AM | #187 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: NYC
|
Well, RB, in the "on the one hand, on the other" category, give Napoleon credit for rationalizing European legal systems by instituting the Napoleonic Code, which is still used today in one form or another in most of the world.
I still think Bismarck is much more responsible for what national governments look like than Napoleon. Bureaucracy, centralization of decisionmaking, extension of the sphere of the state - all traceable to Otto. (Although you can trace a lot of the state-centric approach back to Catherine the Great. In theory there was divine right before that, but the sphere of the state was much smaller, certainly before Westphalia and even for a while after that.) I agree with you that Napoleon certainly had his influences on later developments, but remember: he was a failure. As a model to be emulated by others that was the big flaw - what he created didn't work. His reign ended with Alexander marching down the Champs Elysee and the restoration of the Bourbon monarchy. |
03-16-2010, 11:44 AM | #188 (permalink) | ||
Who You Crappin?
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel |
||
03-16-2010, 12:16 PM | #189 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
If we don't place a consumption tax on food purchases at a place like a grocery store, that would be level for everyone based on my assumption that people fulfill their basic food purchase needs at places like grocery stores. If a person fulfills their food consumption at a place like McDonald's off of the Dollar menu and they pay a x% that amount would be materially smaller than the guy who buys his food at a 5 star restaurant at the same percentage. And, in my view, don't give the guy eating at the 5 star restaurant an opportunity for a "business deduction".
Quote:
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
|
03-16-2010, 03:58 PM | #191 (permalink) | |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
|
Quote:
There is also a consumption tax that is currently at 5%. As I am not a citizen or a permanent resident, I do not have to contribute to the retirement scheme. I have a private one into which I contribute as much as I can. Taxes are low. They are progressive. They are simplified to the extreme. This nation spends a lot (given its size) on its military and infrastructure and yet still has a sizable surplus. It's not perfect but it does show how a progressive tax can also be simple. Flat taxes are not fair taxes.
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
|
03-17-2010, 07:34 AM | #192 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
In an ideal situation taxes should be directly correlated to the costs to society. Given that, those who create those costs should pay for them. In addition, I support general societal support through taxation for the needs of children, elderly, disabled and those in temporary need of assistance.
---------- Post added at 03:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:33 PM ---------- I did.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
06-11-2010, 07:14 AM | #193 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
US Tresury misses out on about $4 billion
I saw this referenced in another forum and wanted to share it here.
Quote:
Two points, one the thought from the article that "rich" people might keep a person alive to avoid taxes...and some question if "rich" people would do things much simpler to avoid paying taxes. Two, the folks in Congress had from 2001 to 2009 to fix this, and they did not. Democrats even had a super majority at one time and did not handle the issue, perhaps they need to have some more hearings, or I guess it is all Bush's fault anyway.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
|
06-11-2010, 07:33 AM | #194 (permalink) |
Lover - Protector - Teacher
Location: Seattle, WA
|
I love how you can talk about someone who has a 9 billion dollar net worth and use quotes around rich. He's "rich", you see, not just rich. It's those damn liberals who want to tax the 9 billion dollar man.. because they think he's "rich."
__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel |
06-11-2010, 07:48 AM | #195 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
|
Well if it says anything to me, it's that rich people are well-versed (and usually well-advised) on how to maximize their wealth. That's the cool thing about wealth; you can usually make a number of decisions that will allow you to get the most out of your assets. You know, making them work for you.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
06-11-2010, 08:00 AM | #196 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
tocqueville wrote in democracy in america that the single most important area of law for keeping the united states a democracy were those which taxed and otherwise redistributed inheritances.
he considered these fundamental because they prevented the formation of an economic aristocracy. tocqueville understood equality of right and equality of condition (more or less on the second) to be the defining features of the democratic experiment in america. writing about the 1830s, he already saw that capitalism, which was taking shape in the cities, was likely to erase american democracy (burden of the future), just as the residuum of protestant ideologies placed severe limits on freedom (burden of the past). conservatives oppose the redistribution of inheritances. funny, that.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
06-11-2010, 08:05 AM | #197 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
|
Quote:
It really is great that his family won't have to suffer with only $4+ billion. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. I'm sure that all those folks who complain about welfare recipients doing zero work and benefiting at the expense of the American taxpayer will be really upset about this too because that's exactly what this dude's family is doing. Quote:
|
||
06-11-2010, 10:22 AM | #198 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
Quote:
---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:13 PM ---------- Quote:
---------- Post added at 06:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:18 PM ---------- Quote:
Estate taxes can easily be avoided. And when we look at wealth in this country, we find that new wealth is constantly being created. The wealth created by technology is totally different than the wealth created from industrialization.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
|||
06-11-2010, 11:34 AM | #199 (permalink) | |||
Lover - Protector - Teacher
Location: Seattle, WA
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel |
|||
06-15-2010, 07:50 AM | #200 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
|
Believe what is real, not theory.
Millions over the years migrated to this country because of the economic opportunity to succeed based on their skills/talents and what they had to offer in the market. People stay for the same reason. In Tocqueville we are talking about a French aristocrat who developed his theories about the USA over 150 years ago, long before the USA becoming the greatest economic power in the world. Quote:
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
|
Tags |
dems, note, rich, soak |
|
|