View Single Post
Old 03-02-2010, 02:06 PM   #167 (permalink)
The_Dunedan
Junkie
 
Quote:
la vendée.....they were just a bunch of peace-loving defenders of the true faith, yes?
Never said that or implied it. However, the Vendeean rebels -were- provoked by the State's attack upon their faith, especially by the requirement that all Priests be State employees, and that all Seminaries be State-run. Danton's notions about fiddling with their taxes probably helped a bit, but there's much less primary-source evidence for that angle.

Quote:
one of the great myths of reactionaries around the world, the "massacre" of the vendéens
Hmm...I wonder, then, how Saint-Just came by his charming nickname? They didn't call him "The Angel Of Death" because of a fondness for Ozzy Osborne, that's for sure. Most of my reading indicates it's because he was a psychotic mass-murderer who popularised such entertainment as "Republican Weddings" and the sinking of prison hulks filled with dissenters and their families. A great deal of the information from the time period immediately surrounding the Vendeean uprising was distorted and exaggerated, true, but the fact is that the Revolutionary government engaged in what possibly qualifies as attempted genocide and -certainly- qualifies as cultural imperialism on a massive scale, backed up by the massacres of thousands of people. Then of course you have Gen. Carrier's instructions to "pacify" the region, and Gen. Westermann's boast that "There is no more Vendée. It died with its wives and its children by our free sabres. I have just buried it in the woods and the swamps of Savenay. According to the orders that you gave me, I crushed the children under the feet of the horses, massacred the women who, at least for these, will not give birth to any more brigands. I do not have a prisoner to reproach me. I have exterminated all. The roads are sown with corpses. At Savenay, brigands are arriving all the time claiming to surrender, and we are shooting them non-stop... Mercy is not a revolutionary sentiment" In light of such facts I find it difficult to understand how you can assess the Vendeean massacres as a myth.

Quote:
and you even repeat a bunch of reactionary slurs about robespierre
I have yet to see any information suggesting that they were inaccurate: Robespierre was known for his inordinate "touchiness" with his son in the last few years of his life, and was widely rumoured even among the rest of the CPS to be recruiting catamites from the prisons wherein the CPS housed its' victims and their families. Desmoulins and Danton even accused him of bribing his prospective entertainment by promising safety for their families. All of this is, as I'm sure you're aware, very much a matter of public record. [Edited To Add: I have dug through my old notes on the subject, and while substantial portions of my undergraduate research are still lost in the depths of Henry McKenna boxes from my last move, I cannot find any notes or citations in what I -could- find to support this point. The point is, therefore, withdrawn.]

Quote:
are you reading de maistre or some such?
Too hysterical for my tastes.

Quote:
the terror lasted about 8 months. from the time robespierre got to be ascendant until he was executed by the convention, about a year.
For the official phase known as La Grand Terreur, correct. However, the Committee For Public Safety had been in operation (and killing people, though Danton eventually left over even the pre-Robespierre excesses) for much longer, and the various acts of legal and freelance mob violence which preceded it were certainly not what you'd call "polite civic discourse."

Quote:
the person who did more to create the modern state than anyone was napoleon.
No argument here, trust me. However, without the power structure created by the Revolution and Terror, he would never have gotten as far as he did. Absent the Levee En Masse and its' various offspring, he would have probably remained a first-rate artillery officer with bad penmanship and a decent career track. He could never have become Emperor without the structures, army, and financial black hole created by the Revolution. Rather similar to the fact that Mr. Obama would never have been able to get away with his ridiculous deficits if Reagan and Bush-II hadn't cleared his way.

Last edited by The_Dunedan; 03-02-2010 at 06:26 PM..
The_Dunedan is offline  
 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360