pan6467

I'll add my 2 cents before I go to work....

For the first time in a very long time I am very optimistic for our future. I believe we have some very good, rational people coming up on both sides (the Presidential field excluded).

The problem with TFP Politics anymore is there is a certain faction that takes over and is truly negative in everything they post. They denigrate others, mock others and talk down to others.

We are all adults here, none of us are going to agree on all things but to talk down to do the above causes people to get defensive.

The guilty say "that's politics and if you don't like it leave." Well, many GREAT posters have left because of this bullshit.

But by my saying that I'll now get 1000 word linked articles telling me why I'm wrong, I'll get that controlling group mocking me and telling me I'm wrong and I'll state my case again.... again the attacks will be worse... and nothing will be accomplished except I'll probably say something stupid... and I'll get the "well, it's politics and if you can't hang leave."

A great example:

It's like wishing the military a Merry Christmas. I am not in support of the war, i don't in any way support Bush but I wore the uniform, I have total respect for those that do and I value them. Wishing them a Merry Christmas without getting political is just the right thing to do. There are countless anti war thread to post your political views in.

So these people in turn with their holier than thou "I know more and my opinions matter more" chase off more GREAT posters.

I find myself actually agreeing with USTwo more and more on here..... TFP will lose a the moderates but not just the moderate right, they'll lose the moderate left also.

TFP Politics used to be fun and now it's just war. You cannot build on hatred which seems to be what the "elite" wish to promote here.

My opinion is if Politics continues down this road it will die (you can see it coming by fewer and fewer posts).

If Politics dies..... the only thing that will keep TFP afloat is the Titty Board.... and for that many of us can go elsewhere.

What's sad is when these "elite" have driven any opposing viewpoints away, what will they do then? My forecast is some will become even more radical and they will feast on each other. All the while TFP will be dying and the Mods that cared and could have stopped it before it got that far were afraid to speak out or chose not to.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

loquitur

Well, sure. Absolutely true. But the reason that is true is because there are competing values, and the "side" that gets to frame the debate in terms of its own preferred set of values will usually control the discourse. That doesn't mean that the choice of which values to use isn't a matter of opinion - it has to be. And the decision you ultimately make will come down to a matter of which values you find more important.

I do a lot of reading, and the reason is that I always want to be checking my premises. I resist visceral reactions on most things (though some things I just won't tolerate, bigotry being the biggest one). My reaction normally is, "give me more information."

roachboy

pan:

i'm not going to respond directly to your post--i've already deleted 2.
for what it's worth, i find it really difficult sometimes to respond to you when you adopt this attitude of being the victim of persecution and remain civil.
call it a quirk.


so instead, i'll make a broader point:

probably the most productive point this particular thread has gotten to is the realization that if there are problems with this forum--and there are (some internal, some situational, i think at least)----that each of us bears a certain degree of responsibility for them.

if things are going to change, we have to change them ourselves.


there is no difference of essence between political viewpoints--it is not the case that one kind of person sees the world one way and another kind another.

there are differing positions which present each of us with choices to make about how to interact, how to proceed.
there are disagreements about values.
there are disagreements about hierarchies of values.
there are disagreements about whether information is required to make a political claim.
there are disagreements about what constitutes legitimate information.
there are disagreements about how to interpret information, how to organize it.
there are disagreements about what relation should obtain between information and the world that it purportedly describes.
there are disagreements about what matters in the world.
there are disagreements about policies, about political personalities, about institutions, about the nature and state of the american political order.
there are disagreements about whether subjecting the premises of your arguments to discussion is or is not part of political debate.
there are differing levels of skill in argumentation (and if you dont think this is a skill, you're deluding yourself--it takes work. it is not obvious how to make arguments with any degree of clarity.)

there are going to be disagreements, then, and about very basic issues, very basic procedures.

i dont see the problem with that.
it is because that's possible that i hang around here.

if you think the forum is in trouble and that bothers you, do something to change it.
if we want to change it, each of us should start with our own posts.

basically, this either is a community or it isn't.



personal aside: i am not committed to the notion of unity.
i think communities with vibrant internal debate are stronger than communities that lack it.
this is directly linked to my interest in direct democracy--which is not at all a peaceful kumbaya kinda set-up---but it DOES presuppose that all members of the polis (the deliberative body) are aware, despite their disagreements, that they operate in the context of a community and that they disagree in part BECAUSE they operate within the context of a community and BECAUSE they care about what happens to that community.

it's kinda like that here, without the exercise of actual power part.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pan6467

Where exactly in my reply in this thread have I adopted a role of personal persecution and made it about me..... except for my opinion on what needs fixed?

If you cannot point it out specifically for all to see, I believe this to be a personal attack because you are insinuating things with no facts to base them upon.


And if you want to use this.... which I used as an example to prove my point, it happens to a lot of people here, but since the post was based solely on MY opinion, I used first person as a reference.

As an aside, I do believe in my humblest opinion your response proved my point.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Elphaba

Pan, I love you dearly and so with respect I answer your challenge. The above statement by you shouts of the victimhood that roachboy mentioned. I hope that you don't consider me one of the controlling group that mocks you. That is certainly not the case. It is true that I don''t understand the anger that you express in this forum, and I would like to better understand your thoughts.

If not here, call me. You have my number.
Pen

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

jorgelito

Pan, I agree with this post and support your position. However, I am very sorry that I do not have enough links or sources to "back up" or support my OPINION. In any event, I feel the problem you are addressing is the biggest problem of tfp politics today.

roachboy

ok so first off i dont see politics as being particularly war-like---it's certainly more civil than it was before the 11/06 midterms. i took a little while off from here earlier in the month after an exchange with jorgelito via pm and just read what was being posted---i dont see it.

but i do see contextual changes that could make what seems to me to be a pretty stable overall tenor seem different/more antagonistic....

so i wonder if there is a situational driver behind some of the responses from the more conservative comrades to this thread, in the sense that the ideology has definitely take a pounding in the world, even if the congressional numbers do not reflect that (go figure)...the administration is to my mind dead in the water, the sense of momentum that conservatives may have been able to derive before 11/06 is shot to hell---but it's not that different from how folk on "the left" reacted to the shock of a second bushterm--except that this time the shoe's on the other foot, and i dont remember seeing threads like this from anyone on "the left" complaining about how it is that the conservatives were acting. i mean, i used to get thrown out of the united states by various rightwingers here on a regular basis--it usually just made me laugh, but it is also a mirror image of the sort of thing that some of the more conservative comrades are now complaining about. this is why i wonder about situational drivers, frankly.

something to consider.

another change is the number of people who post here regularly--there are definitely fewer than were active before the november elections of last year--though it has bounced back a bit from its lowest point.

i have taken periods away from here, and sometimes think it might be good to do that more often....what has in the past prompted me to stop was (a) changes in my schedule and (b) boredom.

there is a certain stasis in general viewpoints--and with fewer people posting than posted say a year and a half ago, less in the way of new circulation of ideas in general (simply because there's less churn in the discussions). so the forum as a whole seems to have more stagnant phases than it once did. so there's less churn happening and few change their views really---with the exception of pan, who has been vocal about this political drift and whose transformation is interesting.

the situational factors seem beyond the control of any of us, really, since we are still in that torpor that sets in between the single days in the course of which americans are actually politically free. paralysis at the congressional level seems to piss everyone off to one extent or another, right and "left" (for symmetrical reasons)...the war in iraq continues with very little popular support, which creates yet another grind that i think affects everyone, one way or another.

the shrinking of the number of fish in the pond exposes the simple nature of the messageboard beast--people generally do not approach this game with the idea that their views are actually at stake--rather, they tend to seek confirmation of their views. debates are not cumulative and happen without any particular shape or end. patterns of usage play into this as well--when you post, where you are, how much time you have, whether you're at work or at home (or both...)...


so beyond what's been suggested so far here and in will's parallel thread, i dont know what there is to be done.

maybe it's time to end the metagame and just enact what we are thinking could happen that'd make this a more interesting space--re-open the discussions periodically as a way of talking about what has or has not been put into motion.

this because there's no way that disagreements are avoidable, nor is it desirable that they be avoided. it's all in how we play them.

==================
but there is one other issue....it's been touched on repeatedly and doesnt seem to be going away, so we might as well address it directly--writing or posting style. from the beginning of this thread, the varying styles of writing that different folk deploy here has been an obvious issue, but because it is difficult to discuss writing style without naming names and from there tipping into personal attack, it has been a recurrent subtext.
i am not sure what to do about this.
part of me thinks it might be a good idea to just have at it--say what bugs you. part of me thinks this is a bad idea. so i dont know--if it didnt keep coming up here i wouldnt bother to mention it--but it has over and over and over, most recently in pan's post, which just reappeared in jorgelito's.

thing is that i dont see anyone changing how they write because how they write doesnt appeal to everyone-----it's possible to change your writing style, but it takes work, persistence and time--i've undertaken this as a project and so speak from my own experience.

the problem is motivation.

maybe ask a question then: since so much has been referenced concerning antagonisms that operate because the way x expresses him or herself irritates a b or c (and vice versa) any ideas about what to do?

there are comrades whose writing irritates the shit out of me, and i have no doubt that my writing irritates the shit out of people as well. it seems like something that grownups learn to put up with, but maybe the fact that this is a written form of communication which people tend to treat as though it was oral (or an extension of email, which is a hybrid writing space for many) is itself part of the explanation for the style issue.

keep in mind that there is a thin line between asking someone to modify their way of expressing themselves and disabling their ability to state their views. this is not an easy problem to manage. if we aren't careful in what follows, we'll end up arriving at this realization collectively after going through a pointless, avoidable donnybrook.

so what do you propose?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

loquitur

Roachboy, on another postboard where I'm a conference host (similar to a mod here) I used to beseech everyone (in order to get to one person in particular) that if they think an article is cogent, post an excerpt from the article and a link, so that people can decide for themselves how much to read and don't get hit with long blocks of text to scroll through. I kept after her for a while but after a bit she got it. What I found is that usually, an article will have one or two or three paragraphs that get almost the entire point across and maybe the entire point, so with just a bit of judgment in terms of how much you excerpt, and with a link, the post becomes much pithier and easier to read, plus it lets your own thoughts shine through.

On a somewhat different subject, I think you're freighting 11/06 with way too much significance, but that's an issue for another day. History has a way of turning that makes fools out of all of us, you know...........

roachboy

on 11/06--it's just something i noticed...

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Elphaba

11/06 certainly changed the Politics forum. The most vocal conservatives simply disappeared for a period of time, only to return later to complain that the forum was entirely populated by "liberals." Until this post, that nonsense has not be challenged.

Post or don''t post. Your presence or absence is your choice. "Liberals" didn't do *it* to you, ok?

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

Ustwo

I had to check when I took my break from TFP, and it was on 11/06. You know if I didn't predict the democrats would take the house ahead of time I'd put more significance on it, and looking back to check I saw you left a typical smarmy one liner, 2 posts after a mod said exactly not to do that, but that doesn't matter really.

Funny thing about that was tfp at the time was getting boring for me, and I'm sure I didn't want to deal with gloating from communists and their dependents, but there was something more important at the time.

It was the start of the BoB ASCN war in EvE, which took up so much of my posting and free time. The fallout of the war still rages today but I got bored of it, and quit playing, pretty much right about the time I started posting again.

But to claim it was just 11/06 that did it is only partially true. Perhaps you can come up with a list of those who quite after 11/06?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

pan6467

Ummmmm that would be true but I'm one who has pointed out the excessive hate, belittling and so on..... and I am very much a Liberal. So what excuse do you have for me?

I feel personally slighted? No. I have nothing to prove, there is no "personal satisfaction" nor "personal loss" for me here.

I want to be holier than thou? No, because I'm not, actually I'm probably just as bad in some ways as those I condemn in trying to make a point, however, I don't belittle, challenge intelligences and try very hard to keep from personalizing or personal attacking...... which the "elite" love to focus their replies doing.

I want attention and am trying to piss people off..... no, I feel no need for attention, I truly have no desire to make strangers pissy and I have no intention of trying to be a martyr.... martyrs in my experience may stand for good purposes but in the end they still die. I have no intention of "dying" (being banned) and the only purpose behind my posts are to express MY OPINIONS, I don't want to have to prove anything, I don't want to have to write or read a ten page research paper on why I believe a political view and belief is right and everyone else's is wrong.

I did that here.... learned a lot in my researches but I didn't change many opinions, looked only for info that suited my purpose so wasn't all that informed on the "other side" and when the other side did try to show me, I didn't want to listen because I had "all this proof". In the end all that ever came out was bad feelings on both sides because neither side gave the other a chance to be heard and personal attacks ensued.

Therein lies the problem..... you cannot grow a political forum and keep up debates unless you give the other side a legitimate chance to be heard and shown respect. Yet, the "elite" here refuse to let go of the control they have over this forum.

When I first started TFP Politics, the place was fun. Yes, people ranted and raved and personal attacks were thrown about, but in the end I would have loved to have met anyone here left or right and shared drinks.

Those days seem to be gone. Learning from the Right and seeing that there could be common ground to work with ended when a certain faction became so into belittling, attacking and controlling that truly GREAT posters who I respected and loved to debate became tired of the attacks and left... or fellow Libs that got tired of the BS and left.

I was there almost.... my interest had waned not because of my political views but because I was tired of every post being taken over, turned around and taken in a direction that had nothing to do with the OP. But the "elite" were able to get away with it because they just belittled people and chased them away.

BUT the straw that has broken my back, the straw that I won't let go of and will use to point to how if TFP truly wants to keep good people and be interesting, have a growing and fruitful political forum and not be just another titty board will be the Christmas to the troops thread started by Deltona Couple.

This is EXTREMELY personal now. You see I was in the military.... unlike most of those who tried so hard to turn it into a political anti war thread or get it shut down (and succeeded)...... I remember what being away from home was like on Christmas. Hell, I went to bootcamp 12/24/88. I wasn't in a war zone but I spent the Christmases I was in away and I would have and did love to hear and see strangers wishing me a Merry Christmas while I served. It helped me keep my spirits up.

So Deltona Couple made an innocent thread and stated put down you partisan arms, your political hatreds for just 1 GODDAMNED thread and take the time to wish the troops a Merry Christmas.

And it seemed he no sooner posted it than the Anti-War comments and essays had to come out.

It could have been moved to General Discussion and made non political but the powers that be kept it here and allowed it to become basically an anti-war thread. In the end all that became of that was people too self righteous shouting anti-war slurs and attacking those who pointed out that was inappropriate.

Now who lost?

Not the people who believe in the war. THE INNOCENT MEN AND WOMEN IN UNIFORM and the casual observer who saw that TFP can't even have a post to wish the men and women in the military a heartfelt Merry Christmas.

It's sad to believe but probably true that the vast majority of those posters who could not wish the military a true heartfelt Merry Christmas and turned that thread into a political grandstand, were wishing strangers at the stores they shopped at, people walking down the street and at work a Merry Christmas.

Now, those casual observers, those thinking about posting new threads with new ideas and thinking about becoming members are probably looking at that thread scratching their head, seeing all this hate and anger and wondering if they want to contribute anything..... doubtful. They'll just go to the titty board, look at Halx's hat, have a little nonsense fun and go elsewhere for better more civil and respectful political discussion.

And as far as any military supporters, active members, family members or veterans.... we've probably pissed them off to where they'll just go elsewhere period and we may lose what they have to share forever.

Hey it's ok, we had another anti-war thread and showed them war mongers. We proved we were right. We proved we were better informed, more educated and sanctimonious.... didn't we?

But then again what do I know? I just wrote a heartfelt passionate essay on what I believe is wrong here and in the end I'll get..... "Don't like it leave".... "you're personally attacking me"....... "you talk about self righteousness and look at yourself".... etc.

"you talk about self righteousness and look at yourself".... that's the one there, I probably do fall into that.... no probably about it. I do. But I also cannot keep quiet and allow a great forum to die in disgrace because certain people wish to control the direction of every thread.... wish to degrade and belittle people into leaving.... and destroy this place further.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

host

This is not going to stop, is it....? In the spirit of this thread, I'm reminded of this classic:
Mooorrrre ideological spam, mom !!! Puh-leeze !!!
<center><img src="http://www.appscout.com/images/spam%20boy.jpg"></center>

Seaver

How about moving from this copy/paste quote format currently used, he make an argument of his own writing and then post the link only to the websites he wants to use as source info. People are more than free to click and investigate themselves and does not kill the argument.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

roachboy

geez.

you go to a party, stand around on a balcony watching the snow fall, manage somehow to drink too much wine. eventually you go home and fall asleep on the couch, wake up not feeling as bad as you thought you would and you think:

"it's 2008.
what happened?
where does time go and who keeps speeding it up?"

you remember standing on a balcony the night before watching the snow fall and you remember thinking "i keep speeding toward getting older" and "but it doesn't seem so bad so long as i wear a tiara" and you remember looking at yourself in the glass door, at the ridiculous cardboard tiara you're wearing and that behind the tiara you could see people moving around in the livingroom, where the party is.

you watch them move, doing whatever they are doing, and you think:
"i dont know these people at all."
and its true.
and you say out loud: "i keep speeding toward getting older"
while you ask yourself inwardly: "what am i doing here?"

the party was fun but then it wasn't. or maybe it was the same the whole time and you are the one who changed. or maybe new years eve is the kind of occasion that prompts alot of people to wonder what the hell they are doing and that's why they make resolutions, these little bromides concerning Achievement that you chant to yourself between glasses of scotch, during that phase characterised by the increasing elusiveness of normally stable factors like your name and the name of the person you were talking to, the one who is sure she knows you from somewhere.

so you turn around and look at the snow falling and at the abandoned newspaper building that functions as regional ornament, the weathervane with the automobile atop it.



it is quiet on the balcony.
the snow makes sound bend around you.

a bit past the newspaper building, you remember looking at a bridge and thinking that the far end of it seems to disappear into fog and that strangely this make you realize that the world is big.

so you make a little list: what am i doing and why am i doing it?

and you arrive at tfp, eventually.
it's not that different from the party that you are and are not attending: i mean, you're at the party, but you're also standing on the balcony and have been standing on the balcony for a very long time. you dont really know the people. they seem nice, but you dont know them and they dont know you.

and it's late and you're bored and you're cold.

you remember tossing a cigarette over the edge of the balcony.
you remember not deciding anything in particular, just opening the door to walk back into the party.
you remember standing inside the door and that the others are all gathered at the far end of the room and that they are chatting amongst themselves and you think:

"i could leave now. this is as good a time as any."

but you dont make up your mind.
you just notice how easy it is to decide to leave.
you wonder whether the conversations that are happening across the room are the same conversations as they always are, whether this is not a discrete party but one of a seemingly endless series of interchangable parties, always with the same cast of characters, always saying more or less the same things. you remember thinking something like this in philadelphia: there is only one party that ever happens. it just changes location.

and so you walk back into the main room, but have no idea why.
inertia probably.

and you remember this the next morning, when the situation repeats.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Elphaba

Well said, roachboy. Thank you.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

ottopilot

happy new year !

edit -> deleted off topic comments

I think this thread has run it's course. Some will attempt to make things better, some won't.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo